God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

Sapient
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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

Surely if an all knowing god exists he knew that I would come into existence showing believers the flaws in his system, showing believers that the Abrahmic gods are impossible. If this god is all powerful he would've also been able to make sure I never came into existence, and this wouldn't have affected the free will of believers in the least. That argument aside, here's a more basic one for you...

Today, I was set to play a round of golf with my son. It rained. So instead of golfing I engaged several theists in a debate, recorded audio responses to irrational mail, worked in other back-end areas for RRS (try to avoid the easy joke), and edited a portion of a future show. Surely an all knowing god would've known that it was either golf or help end Religion. God chose to make it rain so that I would help end Religion, god wants me to end Religion.

Or maybe, just maybe... god doesn't exist. Think theists.

- Brian Sapient


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

Humanzy wrote:

Certainly, at which point, if I died and there wasn't a God, I'd cease to exist. In the mean time I will have followed morals set out by my religion (which isn't Christianity, I'll explain later) and feel, on my death bed, that I lead a pretty ok life. Slave to such horrible morals as "Thou shall not steal".

very good point.
If you have to believe then this is the right way to do it.

Uhm we're deviating from the topic of the thread btw.


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Humanzy wrote:

Certainly, at which point, if I died and there wasn't a God, I'd cease to exist. In the mean time I will have followed morals set out by my religion (which isn't Christianity, I'll explain later) and feel, on my death bed, that I lead a pretty ok life. Slave to such horrible morals as "Thou shall not steal".

very good point.
If you have to believe then this is the right way to do it.

Uhm we're deviating from the topic of the thread btw.

This thread is repeated a million times over. That same thing applies to Athiests, you could be wrong, you say that same line to Christians all the time, why don't you guys accept that you can't really know the inner workings of the universe.

BTW the spaghetti monster, was an underhanded trick. Not funny, you were all taken in by capitalism. Somebody is laughing all the way to the bank on that one.


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

Humanzy wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Humanzy wrote:

Certainly, at which point, if I died and there wasn't a God, I'd cease to exist. In the mean time I will have followed morals set out by my religion (which isn't Christianity, I'll explain later) and feel, on my death bed, that I lead a pretty ok life. Slave to such horrible morals as "Thou shall not steal".

very good point.
If you have to believe then this is the right way to do it.

Uhm we're deviating from the topic of the thread btw.

This thread is repeated a million times over. That same thing applies to Athiests, you could be wrong, you say that same line to Christians all the time, why don't you guys accept that you can't really know the inner workings of the universe.

BTW the spaghetti monster, was an underhanded trick. Not funny, you were all taken in by capitalism. Somebody is laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

Stop being so damned random, if you want to discuss his holy greatness, the FSM, start a new thread FFS.


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Humanzy wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Humanzy wrote:

Certainly, at which point, if I died and there wasn't a God, I'd cease to exist. In the mean time I will have followed morals set out by my religion (which isn't Christianity, I'll explain later) and feel, on my death bed, that I lead a pretty ok life. Slave to such horrible morals as "Thou shall not steal".

very good point.
If you have to believe then this is the right way to do it.

Uhm we're deviating from the topic of the thread btw.

This thread is repeated a million times over. That same thing applies to Athiests, you could be wrong, you say that same line to Christians all the time, why don't you guys accept that you can't really know the inner workings of the universe.

BTW the spaghetti monster, was an underhanded trick. Not funny, you were all taken in by capitalism. Somebody is laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

Stop being so damned random, if you want to discuss his holy greatness, the FSM, start a new thread FFS.

The by the way part wasn't exactly the main part of that post. I'll repeat it really condensed like, you guys could be wrong as could christians. You guys are currently in a faith based belief. I don't care what you say or how much you try to come off rational. All your arguments have been thin and stupid so far. We could go on and on debating the same things because no one has solid ground to stand on...

<NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE POST>Also the various capitalistic ventures the funny athiests undergo, aren't helping anything.</NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE POST>


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Humanzy wrote:
I don't care what you say or how much you try to come off rational. All your arguments have been thin and stupid so far. We could go on and on debating the same things because no one has solid ground to stand on...

You have not been able to counter our arguments, and you have not been able to show that they are 'thin' and 'stupid'... merely alledging this shows clearly the extent to which you are in over your head.

You are like a 5 year old saying: 'i am right and you're wrong and i don't care what you say i'm going home'


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

Try to see it my way. Christians have thin arguments and go back and forth generally not convincing Athiests and not being convinced, this is because neither side has anything to stand on. A Christian could sit around and parry off everything you say and still remain uncompelled and from his view he'll think he's winning. And Athiest could go and do the same thing. All I'm saying is, these are both Faith based initiatives.


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Humanzy wrote:
Try to see it my way. Christians have thin arguments and go back and forth generally not convincing Athiests and not being convinced, this is because neither side has anything to stand on. A Christian could sit around and parry off everything you say and still remain uncompelled and from his view he'll think he's winning. And Athiest could go and do the same thing. All I'm saying is, these are both Faith based initiatives.

A Christian can only sit and parry off everything we say by either avoiding specific arguments (as you have done) or by being irrational.


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Humanzy wrote:
Try to see it my way. Christians have thin arguments and go back and forth generally not convincing Athiests and not being convinced, this is because neither side has anything to stand on.

Atheists dont have "anything to stand on" as you put it becuase atheism isn't a belief in and of itself, it is a reaction to your claim that there is a god. If you posit an interpretation of something that we both agree exists, then we can discuss aspects of it.
I'll make you a deal; stop making claims that there is a god and we'll stop being atheists!

Humanzy wrote:
A Christian could sit around and parry off everything you say and still remain uncompelled and from his view he'll think he's winning. And Athiest could go and do the same thing. All I'm saying is, these are both Faith based initiatives.

NO atheism is NOT faith based. Why do persist in seeing any rival position or worldview as also being a faith based position? Is this the only way you can think? Besides an atheist is much more likley to be persuaded of gods existence when evidence is presented to them than a theist is when evidence is presented to counter their worldview. This is because Atheism is a rational position, we ARE open to persuation.


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Re: God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Looking at this with the ages of the sample population included, we see that the 59% in pre-1900 included only people over seventy years old, gradually lowering to the point where the 29% in the 1960's included only people under forty, which backs up the point I was making, that younger people are less religious than older people.

you cannot do that because they are from different generations and you yourself have acknowledged that there is a decrease in religiosity for every generation that passes.

But they're using different age groups from different generations. Saying that people over seventy who were born pre-1900 are more religious than people under forty born in the 1960's doesn't automatically mean that there is a decrease in religiosity for every generation that passes, since it could also mean that people over seventy are more religious than people under forty.

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kingdavid8 wrote:

For example, people in the 50-59 age range were "very religious" 46% of the time in the years 1910-1919, dropping to 40% in the years 1940-1949. That certainly is a drop, but it's not the 49% to 36% drop that's suggested by the way you presented the data above.

Good point, if you move accross the table horizontally, you see the derease in religiosity with every generation that passes (staying in the same age group) and, like you said, there is a decrease, for every age group!)

Correct. And presenting the data that way would indeed be fair. But comparing different age ranges from one year to the other is not fair.

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kingdavid8 wrote:

I was supplying that information to show you that people get more religious as they get older, which was the subject at hand.

no, the subject at hand was the increase/decrease in atheism.

Also note that study ends quite some time ago...

It looks like the most recent data is from around 2000 at the earliest.

Quote:

The recent rate of conversion to atheism is increasing due to the numbers of atheists growing.

No, because the numbers of believers is also growing, at a greater rate on a worldwide basis (mostly due to believers having more children, from what I've seen). The only way to say "atheism is growing" fairly would be if it is becoming a greater percentage of the human race, which it's not.

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It is becoming more socially acceptable, people understand what it is about, they know that love and morality have nothing to do with religion. Indeed, love is more genuine, and morality isn't warped, when you're an atheist.

Love is also more genuine and morality isn't warped if you're a true Christian.

Quote:

When i became an atheist in 1997, i did not know a single person who was an atheist... not one...
Since then several of my friends, classmates, and co-workers have converted to atheism.

And the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data". I knew very few Christians before becoming a Christian at age 27.

Quote:

But its really pointless argueing... over the next ten years, things are going to change dramatically, i promise.

We'll see.

David


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Re: God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

KingDavid8 wrote:

Love is also more genuine and morality isn't warped if you're a true Christian.

firstly i must apologise for deviating from the topic . . . (but that doesn't really matter because this thread has allready been completely fucked up by David and Humanzy... what happened to the 'enter the darkness' idea, btw?)

When you're an atheist you are not told to love your fellow man. When you do, it is genuine. Good deeds mean a lot more when you do them for the sake of doing them instead of doing them because it's your duty, or because it'll get you to heaven...

How can your sense of morality not be warped if it is dictated by the writings of people who believed the earth was flat? How many christians believe that being homosexual is wrong? How many Atheists believe that homosexuality is wrong?


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Dear David...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In the United States, from 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who are christian fell by 8.5%, while people who classify themselves noreligion/atheist/agnostic rose by 6.6%. (percentage of the total population)

Christian numbers grew by 5.3%
Atheist numbers grew by 105.7% which means the number of atheists more than doubled in a decade....

Now, if christians are in fact outbreeding atheists as you claim, then the only logical explanation is that people are converting to atheism.


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Hey David, i wasted a whole minute of my life looking for statistics that i didn't really need, the least you can do is acknowledge defeat :smt064


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Dear David...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In the United States, from 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who are christian fell by 8.5%, while people who classify themselves noreligion/atheist/agnostic rose by 6.6%. (percentage of the total population)

Christian numbers grew by 5.3%
Atheist numbers grew by 105.7% which means the number of atheists more than doubled in a decade....

Now, if christians are in fact outbreeding atheists as you claim, then the only logical explanation is that people are converting to atheism.

Or that you're talking about the United States alone, while I'm talking about world population as a whole.

I've already agreed that atheism is growing in the United States and in a few other countries. But in other countries, atheism is shrinking and religiosity is on the increase, causing an overall growth in religiosity and shrink (again, percentage-wise, not numbers-wise) in atheism.

David


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Re: God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Love is also more genuine and morality isn't warped if you're a true Christian.

firstly i must apologise for deviating from the topic . . . (but that doesn't really matter because this thread has allready been completely fucked up by David and Humanzy... what happened to the 'enter the darkness' idea, btw?)

When you're an atheist you are not told to love your fellow man. When you do, it is genuine. Good deeds mean a lot more when you do them for the sake of doing them instead of doing them because it's your duty, or because it'll get you to heaven...

Christianity does not teach that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven. You will not find this in the Bible anywhere. It teaches that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior gets you into Heaven.

Technically speaking, now that I am saved, I can go around causing chaos, violence, and disorder and I'll still get into Heaven. While God and Jesus urge me to act morally and ethically (which is pretty good advice), they are by no means requiring it of me, nor am I expecting anything in return for it.

Quote:

How can your sense of morality not be warped if it is dictated by the writings of people who believed the earth was flat?

First of all, the idea that people with incorrect ideas about the natural world automatically are poor sources for ideas of morality is ludicrous. Science is constantly evolving, and much of what modern man believes currently will probably end up being discarded at some future time, but that doesn't mean that we're hopelessly naive about morality.

Secondly, it's never been widely believed that the Earth was flat, among any nation. Just standing on a mountain and looking around disproves that idea.

Quote:
How many christians believe that being homosexual is wrong? How many Atheists believe that homosexuality is wrong?

I don't know, but the Bible doesn't teach that "being homosexual" is wrong. It just says that acting on it (that is, engaging in homosexual intercourse) is a sin. If you're saying that this automatically makes "being homosexual" wrong, then the Bible must also be teaching that "being an unmarried heterosexual" is wrong, since intercourse is a sin for them according to the Bible, as well.

David


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KingDavid8 wrote:

Christianity does not teach that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven. You will not find this in the Bible anywhere. It teaches that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior gets you into Heaven.

Xianity teaches a number of contradictory things, depending on which passage you're reading at the moment. There are many that speak of judgement according to ones works.

Quote:

Technically speaking, now that I am saved, I can go around causing chaos, violence, and disorder and I'll still get into Heaven. While God and Jesus urge me to act morally and ethically (which is pretty good advice), they are by no means requiring it of me, nor am I expecting anything in return for it.

NOT a universal interpretation; many xians would say you weren't a TRUE xian by believing such stuff. But I like that you think you don't HAVE to be moral and yet still are. A secular humanist viewpoint.

Quote:

First of all, the idea that people with incorrect ideas about the natural world automatically are poor sources for ideas of morality is ludicrous. Science is constantly evolving, and much of what modern man believes currently will probably end up being discarded at some future time, but that doesn't mean that we're hopelessly naive about morality.

Secondly, it's never been widely believed that the Earth was flat, among any nation. Just standing on a mountain and looking around disproves that idea.


OK, but it WAS believed by at least SOME biblical writers. The description of the earth in genesis reflected common Babylonian thinking of the time (pillars, firmament, etc) and is dead wrong. The "mountain from which all kingdoms of earth can be seen" (Matthew 4:8 and Luke 4:5 ) and "tree that can be seen from all of the earth" (Daniel) don't reflect a sperical globe. The writers must not have actually CLIMBED the mountain themselves...


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KingDavid8 wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Dear David...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In the United States, from 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who are christian fell by 8.5%, while people who classify themselves noreligion/atheist/agnostic rose by 6.6%. (percentage of the total population)

Christian numbers grew by 5.3%
Atheist numbers grew by 105.7% which means the number of atheists more than doubled in a decade....

Now, if christians are in fact outbreeding atheists as you claim, then the only logical explanation is that people are converting to atheism.

Or that you're talking about the United States alone, while I'm talking about world population as a whole.

I've already agreed that atheism is growing in the United States and in a few other countries. But in other countries, atheism is shrinking and religiosity is on the increase, causing an overall growth in religiosity and shrink (again, percentage-wise, not numbers-wise) in atheism.

David

Okay so in the countries where religiosity is on the rise (notably poor countries, conflict countries, 3rd world countries) you say that this is due to the religious people outbreeding the atheists. Fine.

Now what i want to know from you... How do you explain the data on the wiki link i posted? the fact that atheists DOUBLED in a decade? what do you think are possible explanations for this?

Is it reasonable to conclude from the data that (in the USA) people are converting from christianity to atheism at a steady rate?


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Dear David...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In the United States, from 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who are christian fell by 8.5%, while people who classify themselves noreligion/atheist/agnostic rose by 6.6%. (percentage of the total population)

Christian numbers grew by 5.3%
Atheist numbers grew by 105.7% which means the number of atheists more than doubled in a decade....

Now, if christians are in fact outbreeding atheists as you claim, then the only logical explanation is that people are converting to atheism.

Or that you're talking about the United States alone, while I'm talking about world population as a whole.

I've already agreed that atheism is growing in the United States and in a few other countries. But in other countries, atheism is shrinking and religiosity is on the increase, causing an overall growth in religiosity and shrink (again, percentage-wise, not numbers-wise) in atheism.

David

Okay so in the countries where religiosity is on the rise (notably poor countries, conflict countries, 3rd world countries) you say that this is due to the religious people outbreeding the atheists. Fine.

Now what i want to know from you... How do you explain the data on the wiki link i posted? the fact that atheists DOUBLED in a decade? what do you think are possible explanations for this?

Is it reasonable to conclude from the data that (in the USA) people are converting from christianity to atheism at a steady rate?

Its easy to see but Im sure someone is gonna either

1. Change the subject
2. Answer the question, with another question

Lets see if Im right.


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I know he'll never accept that atheism is on the increase in the USA due to Christains converting...
Can't wait to hear his theory Smiling

Atheist cubans swimming over here....
Atheist canadians coming over in buses for the census...
Atheists rigged the census!
no .. wait .... SATAN rigged the census . . .


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
I know he'll never accept that atheism is on the increase in the USA due to Christains converting...
Can't wait to hear his theory Smiling

Atheist cubans swimming over here....
Atheist canadians coming over in buses for the census...
Atheists rigged the census!
no .. wait .... SATAN rigged the census . . .

Lmao, Yea Satan is behind all the contraidtions in the Bible, and he's behind the extenise of God outside the Bible, and he also rigged the Bush Kerry election.


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Helooooo Daviiiiid ........

If you stop trying to prove that ice is not water maybe you can pull an answer for this one out of your ass?

the_avenging_bucket wrote:

Now what i want to know from you... How do you explain the data on the wiki link i posted? the fact that atheists DOUBLED in a decade? what do you think are possible explanations for this?

Is it reasonable to conclude from the data that (in the USA) people are converting from christianity to atheism at a steady rate?


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Dear David...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

In the United States, from 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who are christian fell by 8.5%, while people who classify themselves noreligion/atheist/agnostic rose by 6.6%. (percentage of the total population)

Christian numbers grew by 5.3%
Atheist numbers grew by 105.7% which means the number of atheists more than doubled in a decade....

Now, if christians are in fact outbreeding atheists as you claim, then the only logical explanation is that people are converting to atheism.

Or that you're talking about the United States alone, while I'm talking about world population as a whole.

I've already agreed that atheism is growing in the United States and in a few other countries. But in other countries, atheism is shrinking and religiosity is on the increase, causing an overall growth in religiosity and shrink (again, percentage-wise, not numbers-wise) in atheism.

David

Okay so in the countries where religiosity is on the rise (notably poor countries, conflict countries, 3rd world countries) you say that this is due to the religious people outbreeding the atheists. Fine.

Now what i want to know from you... How do you explain the data on the wiki link i posted? the fact that atheists DOUBLED in a decade? what do you think are possible explanations for this?

I'm just guessing here (which is what you're asking me to do, I suppose), but I can think of a couple of options:
1) People like Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton, Fred Phelps, Bob Jones, George W. Bush, etc. who give Christianity a bad name, yet somehow seem to be the major examples of our religion in society. Pseudo-Christian morons like them probably delayed my conversion by a few years, even. At one point (when I was an atheist) I happened to see a TV preacher, I forget which one, telling his viewers that if they didn't send him money, they would die and go to hell. I said myself, "I'll never have anything to do with this crap." Fortunately, I later began to see past them and saw that there were Christians out there who were actually kind of intelligent and decent.
2) We're a very materialistic country, and becoming more materialistic every day.

Quote:
Is it reasonable to conclude from the data that (in the USA) people are converting from christianity to atheism at a steady rate?

EDITED TO CHANGE ANSWER. I originally posted here, "Yes. In fact, I stated so on this forum already.", but then I realized that I only said that it was increasing, not that people were converting at a steady rate, so I hadn't stated that at all.

But I should point out that it's not truly a case of people converting from Christianity to atheism more often, but people converting from atheism to Christianity less often. After all, we all start out as atheists.

David


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KingDavid8 wrote:

EDITED TO CHANGE ANSWER. I originally posted here, "Yes. In fact, I stated so on this forum already.", but then I realized that I only said that it was increasing, not that people were converting at a steady rate, so I hadn't stated that at all.

But I should point out that it's not truly a case of people converting from Christianity to atheism more often, but people converting from atheism to Christianity less often. After all, we all start out as atheists.

David

Just a quick one for you, David- I can't help feeling that your answer doesn't properly and fully address cases such as mine, where a GENUINE believer in Christianity deconverts and finds themself an atheist. Do you write all of us off as influenced by pseudo-Christian morons and/or materialism and dismiss us lock, stock and barrel in this fashion? Again, I'm left with the conclusion that AFAICT your answer lacks a lot here.


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Atheist_Scathe wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

EDITED TO CHANGE ANSWER. I originally posted here, "Yes. In fact, I stated so on this forum already.", but then I realized that I only said that it was increasing, not that people were converting at a steady rate, so I hadn't stated that at all.

But I should point out that it's not truly a case of people converting from Christianity to atheism more often, but people converting from atheism to Christianity less often. After all, we all start out as atheists.

David

Just a quick one for you, David- I can't help feeling that your answer doesn't properly and fully address cases such as mine, where a GENUINE believer in Christianity deconverts and finds themself an atheist. Do you write all of us off as influenced by pseudo-Christian morons and/or materialism and dismiss us lock, stock and barrel in this fashion? Again, I'm left with the conclusion that AFAICT your answer lacks a lot here.

I wasn't trying to properly and fully address all cases, just giving a couple of general reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure there are far more options than the two I gave, and I'd even say those two reasons are more likely the kinds of reasons that stop people from becoming Christian in the first place, not the kinds of reasons that cause Christians to deconvert. Also, I can't see how either one would likely cause someone to not believe in God Himself, just to not believe in Christianity in particular.

But if you went from atheist to Christian then back to atheist, then you haven't really affected the numbers overall. And, of course, whether newborn babies are atheists kind of depends on how we define atheist, but we can positively say that newborn babies are not Christians, whether they've been baptized or not. Everyone who is a Christian has converted to it at some point in their lives.

I did see a study once on a website (I tried looking for it again earlier and can't find it, so I don't know the exact numbers) showing that there is a slightly greater percentage of Christians among teenagers than among those in their twenties, suggesting a slight tendency to deconvert around age twenty or so. But the percentage who are Christian then goes back up in the thirties, surpassing the percentage among teenagers. This suggests that, statistically, those who deconvert end up converting again (and of course, the percentage of Christians keeps rising in each age group). But of course, each person is unique, so I'm certainly not saying that all deconverted Christians will become Christians again. Many people stay atheists throughout their lives.

David


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KingDavid8 wrote:

But I should point out that it's not truly a case of people converting from Christianity to atheism more often, but people converting from atheism to Christianity less often. After all, we all start out as atheists.

David

You truly are the grandest dolt i have ever met :smt043

It is not a question of David being dumber than me, it is a question of me being smarter than David.

lol!!!

Go read your quote, dumbass, they are the same thing.
Atheists doubled in a decade. Atheists are smarter than average. Intelligent christians are seeing the light and converting from christianity to atheism. Full stop.


the_avenging_bucket
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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

David, my apologies for the insults and the tone...
But honestly, you earned them Smiling

I resorted to name calling because i was getting really, really, tired with going round and round in circles on two different threads. It was not the right thing to do and i attribute it to immaturity on my part. Please read my last post in the 'two questions thread'.

Cheers,
Jan.


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KingDavid8 wrote:

But the percentage who are Christian then goes back up in the thirties, surpassing the percentage among teenagers. This suggests that, statistically, those who deconvert end up converting again (and of course, the percentage of Christians keeps rising in each age group).

I'd be willing to bet it was the day they looked in the mirror, saw their first real wrinkles, and realized they were going to die one day. Everyone wants to believe they're going to live on forever; the closer you get to death the more you want to buy into it.

-=Grim=-

No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.


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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

GrimJesta wrote:

I'd be willing to bet it was the day they looked in the mirror, saw their first real wrinkles, and realized they were going to die one day. Everyone wants to believe they're going to live on forever; the closer you get to death the more you want to buy into it.

-=Grim=-

I submit that a life that is said to go on forever is a valueless life. Value relates to limits of time and amount. Just as if diamonds became abundant, their value would decrease, eternal lives would also lose their value. A valued life must have limits. What fantastic and contingent luck to live even a short life as a conscious animal in this universe!


Atheist_Scathe
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God wants me to show believers that he doesn't exist.

KingDavid8 wrote:
Atheist_Scathe wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

EDITED TO CHANGE ANSWER. I originally posted here, "Yes. In fact, I stated so on this forum already.", but then I realized that I only said that it was increasing, not that people were converting at a steady rate, so I hadn't stated that at all.

But I should point out that it's not truly a case of people converting from Christianity to atheism more often, but people converting from atheism to Christianity less often. After all, we all start out as atheists.

David

Just a quick one for you, David- I can't help feeling that your answer doesn't properly and fully address cases such as mine, where a GENUINE believer in Christianity deconverts and finds themself an atheist. Do you write all of us off as influenced by pseudo-Christian morons and/or materialism and dismiss us lock, stock and barrel in this fashion? Again, I'm left with the conclusion that AFAICT your answer lacks a lot here.

Quote:
I wasn't trying to properly and fully address all cases, just giving a couple of general reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure there are far more options than the two I gave, and I'd even say those two reasons are more likely the kinds of reasons that stop people from becoming Christian in the first place, not the kinds of reasons that cause Christians to deconvert.

Thanks for this. Hope I didn't sound too accusatory.

Quote:
Also, I can't see how either one would likely cause someone to not believe in God Himself, just to not believe in Christianity in particular.

Not a bad point, actually, if you look at some of the channelling/crystal/New Age nonsense cluttering hippie culture in America at the moment...

Quote:
But if you went from atheist to Christian then back to atheist, then you haven't really affected the numbers overall.

Yes and no, because with a baby we're not talking about CRITICAL atheism, just a kind of de facto atheism. It's also true that apostates like myself have a tendency to be ardent champions of skepticism rather than just passive disbelievers... and thus may help to change the minds of others.

Quote:
And, of course, whether newborn babies are atheists kind of depends on how we define atheist, but we can positively say that newborn babies are not Christians, whether they've been baptized or not. Everyone who is a Christian has converted to it at some point in their lives.

Very true, theistic religion must be instilled through teaching. Part of why I reject it as a human construct.

Quote:
I did see a study once on a website (I tried looking for it again earlier and can't find it, so I don't know the exact numbers) showing that there is a slightly greater percentage of Christians among teenagers than among those in their twenties, suggesting a slight tendency to deconvert around age twenty or so. But the percentage who are Christian then goes back up in the thirties, surpassing the percentage among teenagers. This suggests that, statistically, those who deconvert end up converting again (and of course, the percentage of Christians keeps rising in each age group). But of course, each person is unique, so I'm certainly not saying that all deconverted Christians will become Christians again. Many people stay atheists throughout their lives.

David

Hey, that's interesting, and I think I may have some answers- some people may become Christians/other religionists in their teens due to pressures from their family and peer groups, later reject it as childish upon their individuation around their early twenties, only to re-accept it later on. I have to wonder how critical some of them are being in so doing, but I'll keep my speculations reserved.