What you may not understand about Faith!

SAMMYW1024
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What you may not understand about Faith!

Yes it is long, but it may give you some insight of why people have faith. I hope you read on with an open mind.

Subject: A Very Nice Conversation
if you are not into bible here's a nice conversation

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty.

He asks one of his new Christian students to stand and.....
Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof : So you believe in God?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Prof : Is God good?
Student : Sure.
Prof : Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.
Prof : My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then?
(Student is silent.)
Prof : You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella.
Is God good?
Student : Yes.
Prof : Is Satan good?
Student : No.
Prof : Where does Satan come from?
Student : From...God.. .
Prof : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Prof : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.Correct?
Student : Yes.
Prof : So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)
Prof : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof : So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student : No, sir.
Prof : Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student : No , sir.
Prof : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof : Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Prof : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof : Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat,
mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't
have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below
zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after
that.There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use
to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat
is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?
Prof : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing
and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness
isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof : So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof : Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality.
You argue there is life and then there is death, a good
God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as
something finite, something we can measure. Sir,science can't
even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death
as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of
life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach
your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class is in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable. )

Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.
That is all that keeps things moving & alive.


MattShizzle
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That's stupid! We know

That's stupid! We know brains exist, we have seen them! And brain scans can always be done. Cold is simply a very low ammount of heat, as darkness is a very low ammount of light - both of which can be measured. We have never seen any gods, nor can we scan or measure "god."

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Hambydammit
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What a dumb shit

What a dumb shit professor.

(Actually, I'm pretty sure this conversation is an invention of a theist somewhere.  I've heard similar stories with different participants.)

Anyway, if this is true, it's a damn shame nobody ever explained to the professor the difference between the colloquial and religious definitions of faith.  All that shit about heat and cold and brains is based on a concept called "reasonable expectation" which is a synonym for the colloqial "faith."  Religious faith is belief without proof, or despite evidence to the contrary.

Hopefully someone in class was smarter than the professor and corrected this error after class.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Brian37
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SAMMYW1024 wrote: Yes it is

SAMMYW1024 wrote:
Yes it is long, but it may give you some insight of why people have faith. I hope you read on with an open mind. Subject: A Very Nice Conversation if you are not into bible here's a nice conversation An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new Christian students to stand and..... Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son? Student : Yes, sir. Prof : So you believe in God? Student : Absolutely, sir. Prof : Is God good? Student : Sure. Prof : Is God all-powerful? Student : Yes. Prof : My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? (Student is silent.) Prof : You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good? Student : Yes. Prof : Is Satan good? Student : No. Prof : Where does Satan come from? Student : From...God.. . Prof : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world? Student : Yes. Prof : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.Correct? Student : Yes. Prof : So who created evil? (Student does not answer.) Prof : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they? Student : Yes, sir. Prof : So, who created them? (Student has no answer.) Prof : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God? Student : No, sir. Prof : Tell us if you have ever heard your God? Student : No , sir. Prof : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter? Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't. Prof : Yet you still believe in Him? Student : Yes. Prof : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Student : Nothing. I only have my faith. Prof : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has. Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat? Prof : Yes. Student : And is there such a thing as cold? Prof : Yes. Student : No sir. There isn't. (The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.) Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that.There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it. (There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.) Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness? Prof : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness? Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you? Prof : So what is the point you are making, young man? Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed. Prof : Flawed? Can you explain how? Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir,science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey? Prof : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do. Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir? (The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.) Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.) Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain? (The class breaks out into laughter.) Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir? (The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable. ) Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son. Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

Did it ever occur to you that "faith" is nothing more than your subconcious attempting to replicate comfort and control? Just because something "feels" good doesn't make it real or good.

If I told you that my purple snarfwidget made me feel good, would you simply go, "Ok Brian, I believe you because you seem to be happy".

Pleanty of people have "faith" in other religions but that doesnt mean you believe in all those other gods does it? Of course not. You applied some logic to those other claims to reject them. We simply apply logic to your claim as well and that is why we dont buy your god claim or any god claim.

You have been indoctrinated into one of the many familys "warm fuzzy clubs". But we give you the same scrutany and criticism that we do all other claims just as you would be justified in saying, "Brian, that claim of purple snarfwidget makes no sense".

"It makes me feel good"

"Most people believe in deities"

"It is a tradition"

Are all excuses the believer uses to avoid examining the claims they make. You do it, Catholics do it, Mormons do it, Jews do it, Hindus do it and so do Muslims and Wiccans.

Our criticism here is not ment to force you by law not to believe. Merely a challenge to you to look introspectively into your own claims and ask yourself, "Is what I am claiming really true, or is it something I simply want to be true".

I know the above is hard for believers to face. But at a minimum it should teach them even if they dont deconvert, not to blindly believe everything their pastor, rabbi or Cleric sells them. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Ophios
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MattShizzle wrote: That's

MattShizzle wrote:
That's stupid! We know brains exist, we have seen them! And brain scans can always be done. Cold is simply a very low ammount of heat, as darkness is a very low ammount of light - both of which can be measured. We have never seen any gods, nor can we scan or measure "god."

 

don't you get it, we have no internal organs!!!11!!

 and I don't exist as you can't see me.!!!1!11!!!!

 

Now if I remember Todangst had a rebutal to this. 

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Without a material brain,

Without a material brain, how could god have a mind ?


BarkAtTheMoon
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Ugh. I've seen these stupid

Ugh. I've seen these stupid little stories before, and they are almost undoubtedly made up by theists. The so-called atheist professor in these stories makes numerous mistakes about science and generally shows a theist's understanding of science.

The student was actually basically correct about there being no such thing as cold and darkness as scientific terminology. They are colloquial terms to describe low levels of heat and light energy compared to normal and are subjective and as such having little place in a scientific discussion. Alas, the analogy is shit because they have nothing to do with the supernatural and are easily measurable quantities by natural means. Plus the author might want to actually do two seconds of research on Google and get the right number for absolute zero, -459.67 F instead of 458 below zero, or show he knows a little about science and just say 0 kelvin or -273C or absolute zero. Fahrenheit and other non-metric measurements are rarely used in science. 

He talks about absolute zero, something that's important when talking about the motion and kinetic energy of molecules and atoms, yet then attacks other principles for not being visible due to being at the atomic level. Electricity and magnetism can be measured through their effects, whether you can physically see a single electron moving or not. It's stupid to equate something beyond our direct observation, but easily measurable through technological means and known physical quantities, in the same category as proof of God.

Then we come to the typical misinformed and/or deceitful theistic arguments against evolution.

SAMMYW1024 wrote:
Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

First of all, evolution can and has been observed directly in fast reproducing organisms. Second, just like with electricity and magnetism, there are indirect effects. There's mountains upon mountains of historical data in the fossil record and many, many other indisputably factors that all support evolution. How's this kid know Jesus existed? He never saw him. Stupid argument and lack of understanding of how paleantology and other history based sciences work.

SAMMYW1024 wrote:
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain? (The class breaks out into laughter.) Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

Now the kid's just being a prick. Again, the prof's brain could easily be observed with CT scans, PET scans, or any of a number of other non-invasive medical procedures or even cracking his head open if you want to be picky, and the kid and everyone else should obviously realize that. The fact that every person who ever lived has had a brain makes it pretty likely that he does, too. My philosophy professor in college did a similar exercise by walking out of the room and asking us if we were sure still existed when he was gone. It's the basics of inductive reasoning and logic.

SAMMYW1024 wrote:
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable. ) Prof : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son. Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

And the evil atheist professor gets torn to shreds by the good Christian student and God & faith are proven. Bzzzzt, wrong answer. This would have to be the world's worst professor for all of the above to happen. Typical Christian creationist propoganda nonsense.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song


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Todangst has already

Todangst has already refuted this here on these forums.  Read below:

Thanks to Martin at http://www.blogicandreason.blogspot.com/ for reformulating an argument I've given in the past. I'll use his reformulation:

Now for the story:

The university professor challenged his students with this question: Did God create everything that exists?" A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!" "God created everything?" the professor asked. "Yes, Sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil; since evil exists and, according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil." The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact, Sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460° F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism
to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, Sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exists just as result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name ---
Albert Einstein

You know that one? Good. Time to deconstruct it. Let's get started.

First - this story is an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

Second - Einstein was a Pantheist, by definition. Practically an atheist in disguise.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." Upon being asked if he believed in God by
Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York,
April 24, 1921, Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 502.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein in Albert Einstein: The Human Side

Third - Einstein is only put forth as the author because he's about the only genius that the unawashed masses are aware of...

Fourth - The college professor is put forth as an arrogant, dogmatic man who views science as a religion and views questions from students as a challenge to his worldview. The student is put forth as a polite, honest, skeptic. The reality is that the roles are reversed: while a scientist can be dogmatic and a theist can be skeptical, science itself is skeptical, and religion itself is dogmatic. The emotional immaturity of the professor is a projection of the emotions found in the sort of theist who would actually be inspired by this tripe.

Fifth - Cold is not 'the absence of heat' anymore than "heat is the absence of cold'. Both 'hot' and 'cold' have to do with the motion of atomic and subatomic particles - "hot" and "cold" are not the opposite or the lack of one another, they are both subjective evaluations of the same thing - movement.

Sixth - This Thomistic-Augustinian semantic farce doesn't solve the problem of evil. Since an "evil" act requires human intent, a cognition, it's clearly ridiculous to call "evil" a non entity.

Seventh - "Evil is simply the absence of God"? - God is defined in the bible as omnipresent, ergo there can be no 'absence of god' as per the negative trait applied to 'god'.

Eighth - Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Note: some respond by stating that later versions of this passage change the word 'evil' to something else, such as causing disaster. However, to purposely cause disaster is to act in an evil manner, so
this 'solution' just moves the problem one step back.

In addition, Rook Hawkins points out that a christian trying to defend this claim through redefinition has a lot of redacting to do:

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?”
(Lam. 3:38).

”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3).

”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3).

”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26).

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42).

”...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).

See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3, 19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19, 35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_whitefoxs_website_the_bible_door

Now, to visualize such a dialogue in an environment with REASON and without PREJUDICE, this is how it would look like.

Dialogue with a young theist

A philosophy professor challenged his students with a form of the Euthyphro dilema: Did 'God' create everything that exists?" A student replied, "Yes, he did!" (The 'bravely' part is removed, seeing as
civil disagreement is the very point of philosphy courses, no bravery is required for dissent. In fact, civil dissent is often rewarded in a philosophy class.)

"God created everything?" the professor asked. "Yes," the student replied. (The 'sir' part is removed, as no student in the 21st century addresses a college professor in this fashion, and the use of 'sir' is just a pretense of 'respect' from the theist mouthpiece who's actually feeling little more than contempt for the professor.&#39Eye-wink

The professor answered, "Well then, here's a logical puzzle for you: If God created everything, then God created evil; since evil exists and, according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

The student became silently enraged over his worldview being 'attacked'. He began to project out his feelings of inadequecy as smugness coming from the professor.

The student then said: "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor. That's the point of philosophical discourse. (The writer of the original story clearly has little experience with a real college classroom. The whole point of a philosophy or theology course is to foster discussion.)

Student: Is there such thing as heat?"
Professor: Yes, the professor replies. There's heat.
Student: "Is there such a thing as cold?"
Professor: "Yes, there's cold too."
Student: "No, sir, there isn't"

The professor doesn't grin or frown or react with any emotion other than curiosity. (The desire to see the professors 'smug smile wiped off his face' is just another projection of the feelings of inadequecy found in theists who argue like this sort of pablum...)

The student continues. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero,
which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458, You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of
heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it"

Professor: (Nodding his head in dismay, and working out how many times he's heard this bad logic by now). Do you remember the section in your workbook on semantic fallacies? By your "logic" we could also say there is no 'heat', only differing degrees of cold.

Student: ( gives a confused look a dog might make)

Professor: Your choice of 'heat' over 'cold' was arbitrary. In reality, both 'heat' and 'cold' are subjective terms... what the philosopher John Locke properly called "secondary qualities". The secondary qualities refer to a very real phenomena: the movement of atomic and sub atomic particles. We refer to their different rates of movement as 'temperature.' So what we 'really' have is temperature.... the terms 'heat' and "cold' are merely subjective terms we use to denote our relative experience of temperature.

So your entire argument is specious at best. You have not 'proven' that 'cold' does not exist, what you have done is shown that 'cold' is a subjective term. Removing the term we use to reference the phenomena does not eradicate the phenomena.

Student: (a bit stunned) "Uh... Ok.... Well, is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

Professor: You are still employing the same logical fallacy. Just with a different set of of secondary qualities.

Student: "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

Professor: "What I am telling you is that you are repeating the very same error. "Darkness exists as a secondary quality.

Student: "You're wrong again. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?

Professor: Sure, right after you give me a jar of light. Seriously, what we call 'light' is actually a reference to photons. You've confused a secondary quality with an attribute again. "Light and dark' are subjective terms we use to describe a measure of photons. The photons actually exist, the terms 'light' and 'dark' are just subjective, relative terms... Doing away with a subjective term does not eradicate the actual phenomena itself - the photons.

Student: (gives a look not unlike a 3 year old trying to work out quantum physics)

Professor: I see your still struggling with the fallacy hidden in your argument. But let's continue, perhaps you'll see it.

Student: Well, you are working on the premise of duality", the christian explains.

Professor: Actually, I've debunked that claim two times now. But carry on.

Student: "Well, you assume, for example, that there is a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.

Professor: And here, my class, we have a special plead fallacy. Be careful, my student. If you want to place your god beyond the grasps of reason, logic, and science and make him 'unmeasurable', then you are left with nothing but a mystery. So if you use this special plead to solve the problem, you can't call your god moral either. You can't call him anything. You can't say anything else about something beyond reason. So your solution is akin to treating dandruf by decapitation.

Student: (Gulps. Continues on, oblivious to what was just said) Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them.

Professor: You just said that science cannot explain a thought. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. I think what you mean to say is this: there remains many mysteries in neuroscience. Would you agree?

Student: Yes sir.

Professor: And, along the same line of thought, we accept that there are things like thoughts, or electricity or magnetism even though we have never seen them?

Student: Yes!

Professor: Recall the section in your textbook concerning fallacies of false presumption. Turn to the entry on 'Category error'. You'll recall that a category error occurs when an inappropriate measure is used in regards to an entity, such as asking someone what the color a sound is.

Asking someone to see magnetism commits such an error. However, there is yet another error in your argument: it assumes that empircism relates to vision alone. This is false. Sight is not the sole means of knowing the world. We can use other senses to detect these phenomena. And we can view their effects upon the world.

Furthermore, Again, you are conflating the fact that science is incomplete with the ridiculous implication that science knows 'nothing' about these phenomena... so you'll also want to review the section on 'arguing form ignorance.'

Do you have more to say?

Student: (The student, continues, mainly unfazed, due to the protection his shield of ignorance affords him.) .... Um....... to view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot
exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it"

Professor: You are really in love with this secondary quality fallacy, aren't you? You are again confusing a secondary quality with the phenomena in of itself. "Death" and "life" are subjective terms we use
to describe a more fundamental phenomena - biology. The phenomena in question, however, does exist. Biological forms in various states exist. Doing away with the subjective term does not eradicate the existence of death.

Nonplussed, the young man continues: "Is there such a thing as immorality?"

Professor: (Reaches for an asprin in his desk) Son... you're not going to again confuse a secondary quality for an atttribute, are you? Please... what can I do to help you see this problem?

Student: (Continues on, fueled by ideology and oblivious to reality) You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

Professor: So, if someone murders your mother tonight, nothing happened? There was just an absence of morality in your house? Wait, I forgot... she's not dead... she's just experiencing an absence of life, right?

Student: Uh.....

Professor: You're beginning to see that something is missing in your argument, aren't you? Here's what your missing. You are confusing a secondary quality... a subjective term that we can use to describe a
phenomena, for the phenomena itself. Perhaps you heard me mention this before? (The class erupts in laughter, the professor motions for them to stop laughing.) 'Immorality' is a descrptive term for a behavior. The terms are secondary, but the behaviors exist. So if you remove the secondary qualities, you do nothing to eradicate the real behavior that the terms only exist to describe. So by saying that 'immorality' is a lack of morality, you are not removing immorality from existence, you are just removing the secondary attribute, the term.

And notice how dishonest your argument is... in that it speaks of morality and immorality devoid of behavior, but 'evil' exists as a behavior, evil is an intent to do harm.

By the way, are you really trying to imply that immorality or evil are merely subjective qualities?

Student: Gulp! (Reeling from the psychological blows to his corrupt worldview....) Sir, Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor soothes his aching forehead, and prepares for the 1 millionth time that he will be subjected to the 'can you see the wind' argument.

Professor: What an interesting turn this conversation has taken. Can I advise you to read Brofenbrenner's suggestion against arguing over subjects over which you are uninformed? It's in your textbook.

Student: "Professor, since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now
not a scientist, but a priest?

Professor: Interesting indirect comment on the priesthood. But let's leave that aside... We do observe the process of evolution at work, for the process works at this very moment. As for the implication in your argument that one must 'be there' to observe a process at it occurs, surely you realize that we can infer the process through examining the evidence that these processes leave behind? In a sense, we 'are there' when we observe artifacts.

Consider for example the science of astronomy. How do we know about super novas? Because we can observe diferrent supernovas in different stages of super nova, by observing their 'artifacts' in the night sky. The same stands for any historical science. Your mistake here is that you think science is merely observation, and 'real-time-observation' at that...This is a strawman of science. Science is both direct and indirect observation... it also allows for inference.

Student: "But sir! You stated that science is the study of observed phenomena.

Professor: No, this is a strawman of what science is... Science is more than just real time observation, we also make inferences. But continue....

Student: (Responds to this as a goat might respond to a book on calculus) May I give you an example of what I mean?"

Professor: Certainly.

Student: "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, oxygen, molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?"

The class breaks out in laughter. The christian points towards professor, "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" "No one appears to have done so", The christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I declare that the professor has no brain!"

Professor: You mean, according to your strawman view of science. I am glad that you are here in my class so that I can help you better understand what you criticize. Science is not merely 'looking' at things. Science is empirical, but also rational. We can make inferences from evidence of things that we do see, back to phenonema that we might not be able to directly see.

And one inference I can make from observing your behaviors here today is that you've wasted the money you've spent on your logic textbook so far this year. I strongly advise, for your own sake, that you crack open that book today, and start reading.

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This thread should be

This thread should be called, "What happens when an ignorant student meets an ignorant professor"

 

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Wasn't there a version in

Wasn't there a version in which the professor exclaims that he can't the student's brain, therefore it doesn't exist too?

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Ophios wrote: Wasn't there

Ophios wrote:
Wasn't there a version in which the professor exclaims that he can't the student's brain, therefore it doesn't exist too?

 

I think so.  There's another version which has been claimed FALSE by Snopes about the student being Albert Einstein but the story goes a little different. 

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This is actually a fairly

This is actually a fairly realistic scenario.  The theist makes no attempt to explain god's apparent creation of evil, sickness and general malcontent and then proceeds to completly destroy the very definition of reasoning by rounding it up with blind faith.  Too bad they didn't include the part where the professor tears that argument to pieces like a wet kleenex.  It's so hard to write a good ending.

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Goddamn, that parody

Goddamn, that parody version from todangst is classic.

 TODANGST I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES (I am male too but love will always find a way.)

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Sapient wrote: Ophios

Sapient wrote:

Ophios wrote:
Wasn't there a version in which the professor exclaims that he can't the student's brain, therefore it doesn't exist too?

I think so.  There's another version which has been claimed FALSE by Snopes about the student being Albert Einstein but the story goes a little different. 

 

I've also debunked that here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_whitefoxs_website_the_bible_door

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Good stuff, todangst. :)

todangst wrote:
Professor: So, if someone murders your mother tonight, nothing happened? There was just an absence of morality in your house? Wait, I forgot... she's not dead... she's just experiencing an absence of life, right?

ROTFLMAO! Smiling  She's not dead...she's just restin'...pinin' for the fjords. Laughing out loud

Seriously, I wonder if a decent logic class is offered at the community college? I'd love to learn more.

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professor conversation

Listen, I understand you are more intelligent then I, but what does that get you? You can spend your whole life disproving something you do not believe to exist, what if your wrong? Look, I am a Christian. I love the Lord and wish more people came to know Him. But, to each his own. If you don't believe in God, isn't that your prospective? You're not going to rid the world of religion, don't you see. Even if you did, as humans, we would find something else to bicker about. Look man, I love you even if you just think I am some uneducated degenerate. I love you, and your friend Sapient. You know, if you guys were around in the 1st century and you came across Jesus speaking to a crowd, you would have liked Him, and He would have liked you. I know that sounds funny but He came for people that did not know Him as you. I hope you do not misinterpret my reply, it is only meant as a peace offering. I want nothing more then peace between those whos' opinions differ, as ours. Maybe if we spent this energy in a more "rational" way you could really change things. Weather if, in my mind, you are leading folks away from the Lord, or in your mind, doing your part to end a cycle of religious tyranny. I don't understand why you do not know the Lord but all I can do is hope and pray you can one day know of His love and grace. Please do not pick apart what I am writing you now, for I am just a wo-man, as are you, and niether of us perfect. I guess that is what confuses me. Why do you all find it so important for God to be a "rational" idea? Does everything have to consist of reason? Why? Anyway, we are both so set in our ways, yeah you are; don't deny it, that you will continue with your cause and I will continue to pray for those who reject the Lord. Nothing but love for you anyway, even if we do disagree. Peace! Sam


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When in doubt, go to

When in doubt, go to Pascal's Wager...

 (audible sigh)

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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professor conversation

Listen, I understand you are more intelligent then I, but what does that get you? You can spend your whole life disproving something you do not believe to exist, what if your wrong? Look, I am a Christian. I love the Lord and wish more people came to know Him. But, to each his own. If you don't believe in God, isn't that your prospective? You're not going to rid the world of religion, don't you see. Even if you did, as humans, we would find something else to bicker about. Look man, I love you even if you just think I am some uneducated degenerate. I love you, and your friend Rook. You know, if you guys were around in the 1st century and you came across Jesus speaking to a crowd, you would have liked Him, and He would have liked you. I know that sounds funny but He came for people that did not know Him as you. I hope you do not misinterpret my reply, it is only meant as a peace offering. I want nothing more then peace between those whos' opinions differ, as ours. Maybe if we spent this energy in a more "rational" way you could really change things. Weather if, in my mind, you are leading folks away from the Lord, or in your mind, doing your part to end a cycle of religious tyranny. I don't understand why you do not know the Lord but all I can do is hope and pray you can one day know of His love and grace. Please do not pick apart what I am writing you now, for I am just a wo-man, as are you, and niether of us perfect. I guess that is what confuses me. Why do you all find it so important for God to be a "rational" idea? Does everything have to consist of reason? Why? Anyway, we are both so set in our ways, yeah you are; don't deny it, that you will continue with your cause and I will continue to pray for those who reject the Lord. Nothing but love for you anyway, even if we do disagree. Peace! Sam


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Sammy, most of us are

Sammy, most of us are ex-Christians.  We know first-hand about the delusion of believing in god.  We've been there and done that.  So no, we are not set in our ways.  Many of us had the courage to upend our whole world view because we came to realize that belief in god (and especially religion) was both illogical and harmful.

Even now I am in a constant search for the truth.  I can name a number of ideas I've discarded for new ones simply because of lack of evidence.  Yet I continue to be curious and possess an open mind. I constantly monitor my intellectual arrogance to make sure I continue to question and seek truth in all things.  Yes, I can be arrogant.  But being aware of my own failings is an important part of truth-seeking.

I forget which great thinker said, "Outrageous claims require outrageous proof."  I could look it up, but I'm lazy because I'm fighting sinusitis. Smiling  Anyway, the claim that a god exists is a pretty big claim and it requires proof.  If someone were to provide actual proof--not based on personal experiences or apologetics or faith--I would believe in god.  The problem is there simply is no proof for the existence of a god.  The fact that people like you have to argue for him is the biggest proof of his non-existence I can think of.  Omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent beings don't need mere mortals to argue for their existence.

 

 

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SAMMYW1024 wrote: Listen, I

SAMMYW1024 wrote:
Listen, I understand you are more intelligent then I, but what does that get you? You can spend your whole life disproving something you do not believe to exist, what if your wrong?

 

Oh well, then I guess the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real.  Sounds like we're both screwed if I'm wrong, eh?

 

Quote:
You know, if you guys were around in the 1st century and you came across Jesus speaking to a crowd, you would have liked Him, and He would have liked you.

Better yet... we would've actually had evidence for his existence!  Yahoo!

 

Quote:
I don't understand why you do not know the Lord but all I can do is hope and pray you can one day know of His love and grace.

I "knew" the lord as a Child, and then I grew up, you should try it.

 

Quote:
Anyway, we are both so set in our ways, yeah you are; don't deny it, that you will continue with your cause and I will continue to pray for those who reject the Lord.

My way is a pursuit of the truth.  Give me proof of God, and I'll believe instantly.  You're way seems to be one based on fear of hell with sprinkles of faith and dogmatism on top. 

 

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 Nothing but love for you anyway, even if we do disagree. Peace! Sam

Love for you right back!

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Iruka Naminori wrote:  

Iruka Naminori wrote:

 

ROTFLMAO! Smiling She's not dead...she's just restin'...pinin' for the fjords. Laughing out loud

She's not pinin', she's passed on. This woman is no more. She has ceased to be. She's expired and gone to meet her maker. This is a late woman. She's a stiff. Bereft of life, she rests in peace.

Laughing out loud


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This is an ex-woman! ::

This is an ex-woman! :ROTF:


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She fuckin' snuffed it!  

She fuckin' snuffed it!

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sam, there's nothing wrong

Sam, there's nothing wrong with being uninformed about a subject as long as you don't just accept your lack of knowledge and are still willing to learn. Even as a Christian you can and should study science to know how nature and reality work, all without necessarily stopping your belief in God if you really need that to get through the day. If your faith can't handle science showing that the bronze age creation myth passed down by nomads and written in your holy book isn't literally accurate and didn't happen exactly as written, maybe the problem isn't with science's explanation for how the universe, earth, and the diversity of life did come to be. 

Why do we expect God to be a rational idea? Well, let's see. 

ra·tion·al (răsh'ə-nəl)
adj.

  1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
  2. Of sound mind; sane.
  3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See synonyms at logical.

ir·ra·tion·al (ĭ-răsh'ə-nəl)
adj.

    1. Not endowed with reason.
    2. Affected by loss of usual or normal mental clarity; incoherent, as from shock.
    3. Marked by a lack of accord with reason or sound judgment: an irrational dislike.

Shouldn't you expect God to be a rational idea? If God was as important to me as he is to you, I would demand him to be a rational idea. Otherwise, you're worshipping something utterly without meaning.

"Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball."

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song


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Ok, I haven't read all the

Ok, I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I would like to comment.

This is not the first time I've heard this story.  I heard it first when I was, I dunno, about 14 or so, sitting in Sunday class.  The teacher told the story and I was paying close attention and all seemed fine until the part where the student starts talking about darkness being the absence of light and evil being the absence of good.  After that part my attention strayed and I couldn't stop thinking about how that made no sense.  "If evil is the absence of good," I thought, "then everything that isn't good is evil."  If I just sit quietly and do nothing else, then by that logic I am doing an evil thing.  But doing nothing is not evil, nor is it good. 

I heard this analogy several times after that in church.  Never has it made sense to me. Yet, many people accept it without question and say it is a great story and a great analogy.  I mean, it must be, right? The student proved the professor wrong, didn't he?  Rarely do they really think about it. "This is a good thing and proves God exists," the pastor says, and the faithful follower immediately agrees and gives it not a moment's thought. 

I have seen the second part of the student's argument in many forms; though, I don't know that I have ever heard it in the same story as the light and dark. The writer tries to show that everyone has faith in something, whether it is science or God.  The problem here is that we have evidence, and if there were any doubt that the professor had a brain, it could be proven.  However, even though there is great doubt that God exists, it cannot be proven. 

If the professor in this story actually existed (he doesn’t) he should be fired.  How can such a stupid person ever hope to teach others if he is so easily stumped by such an obviously flawed concept? No, this story was invented by a theist, who chose to use the Christian student and atheist professor to illustrate his poor argument.  I held it in low esteem when I was a Christian and I hold it even lower now.

Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?


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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:

todangst wrote:
Professor: So, if someone murders your mother tonight, nothing happened? There was just an absence of morality in your house? Wait, I forgot... she's not dead... she's just experiencing an absence of life, right?

ROTFLMAO! Smiling  She's not dead...she's just restin'...pinin' for the fjords. Laughing out loud

Seriously, I wonder if a decent logic class is offered at the community college? I'd love to learn more.

Is that a Norwegian Blue in your avatar? Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue. Beau'iful plumage.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song