Debunking Whitefox's Website: The Bible Door

Rook_Hawkins's picture

PART I

Hey there Ray (Whitefox from the Infidelguy boards), as promised I will be doing a critique of your website. The website is http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/ and appears to be a pretty large site full of ignorance. Let's start right away with your first page.

First page of The Bible Door website states: A portal to the word of God and messages of encouragement.

I want everyone to remember this. This is, I think, a message that speaks volumes to the rest of the critique ahead.

You use two verses right under a very heavenly picture of a door, which opens up (seemingly) into a beautiful entourage of clouds and sky, sun and atmosphere. The message, with the picture and the verses make a very good theme. However you probably didn't realize that when you first created this page, you were causing the first point of conflict.

The two verses used: Rev 3:20; Rev 3:8. Let's examine them for a moment.

Revelations 3:8, “I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.”

Revelations 3:20, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Two verses which imply that God is the way, and he offers us a path to take. If we choose it, we can go to him and will always be accepted. Right?

Wrong. The Bible conflicts here, as it is shown that not all those who come to God are accepted, with such verses as: “Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed” (Isa. 6:10). “So you see God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he makes some refuse to listen” (Rom. 9:18). “This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving” (Matt. 13:13-14). See also: John 12:39-40, Mark 4:10-12, and Luke 8:9-10.

All of these verses clearly show that God hardens hearts and forces people not to hear his word. According to the Bible, it's at God's whim who he does this too and when. And for reasons usually just because of certain wants of his - for his entertainment.

Some loving God, right?

Let's continue. I clicked on the door, and after three tries (I am not sure why it timed out on me but it did) I managed to get into the site. Plush with links and sites of Christian nature, mostly containing online Bibles and search sites, including my favorite: Bible Gateway. Heck, you even included the infamous spinning Jesus logo in the upper-right corner. You really went all out.

In the words of the almighty Jake, “oooooo a spinning 3d Jesus image ! IT MUST BE THE TRUTH !”

Sorry, but I laughed so hard when he told me that! I had to include it!

Although, I have to tell you; That damned green scrolling marquee almost made me leave the site. It gets in the way and when you use the drop-down menus, it covers up the second option - so I can't read it.

It's a shame, but I can deal I suppose. Now, as with all my website reviews, I don't go over all the information on them, simply because I do not have the time for it. I usually review one page of commentary per website so there are two separate conclusions on it - yours and mine.

So don't get offended that I only critiqued a few commentaries of yours.

For starters, lets go after the first link in your “Ray's Bible Study” page.

Quote:
Wednesday, June 29, 2005
Did God Create Everything?

The university professor challenged his students with this question: Did God create everything that exists?” A student bravely replied, “Yes, he did!” “God created everything?” the professor asked. “Yes, Sir,” the student replied.

The professor answered, “If God created everything, then God created evil; since evil exists and, according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil.” The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, “Can I ask you a question professor?” “Of course,” replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, “Professor, does cold exist?” “What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?” The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, “In fact, Sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460? F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.”

The student continued, “Professor, does darkness exist?” The professor responded, “Of course it does.” The student replied, “Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present.”

Finally the young man asked the professor, “Sir, does evil exist?” Now uncertain, the professor responded, “Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world These manifestations are nothing else but evil.”

To this the student replied, “Evil does not exist, Sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exists just as
result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.”

The professor sat down.

The young man's name ---

Albert Einstein.

(This was sent to Bible Door by someone who could not verify it as a historically accurate statement. We reprinted it because the principal is true that it represents.)

You may contact the person who handed you this tract or its author

Wow. Just wow. So many problems abound here, it's not even funny. Not in the least. Although my quick and decisive hacking of it may be.

For starters, we have two unknowns in this little “story.” The first is, we have no identity of the Professor. No name to give to the antagonist. Vaguely resembling the lack of a name for Egyptian Pharaoh in the exodus myth. Both stories - this and that - are false, and this is simply one evident supporting factor.

Second, what university this partakes in. Also another key factor that writes this story off as false. Christians will use any tactic in an attempt to prove their claims right, including making up false “historical” legends like this that hold no ground - as Einstein himself even claimed to be an agnostic atheist who despised religion.

  1. 1.”I believe...not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.”
    -- Albert Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding “Do you believe in God?” Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.
  2. 2.”I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.”
    -- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted from James A. Haught, “Breaking the Last Taboo” (1996)
  3. 3.”I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.”
    -- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
  4. 4.”It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”
    -- Albert Einstein, “Religion and Science,” New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930
  5. 5.”Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.”
    -- Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann
    6.And finally, my favorite which blows this whole story out of the water: “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
    -- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Aside from that, I'm proud of you that you stated that this was not confirmed historical - but then you made a claim that the message was correct. Really? So God did not create evil? Evil - you agree - is the absence of God?

You have absolutely NO biblical support - in fact this is in direct confrontation with what the Bible actually does say about God. And here comes the list:

  1. ”I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:7).
  2. ”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” (Lam. 3:38).
  3. ”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3).
  4. ”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3).
  5. ”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26).
  6. ”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42).
  7. ”...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).
  8. See also: Jer. 11:11, 14:16, 18:11, 19:3, 19:15, 23:12, 26:13, 26:19, 35:17, 36:31, 40:2, 42:10, 42:17, 44:2, 45:5, 49:37, 51:64, Ezek. 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chron. 34:24, and 2 Chron. 34:28

I would do some homework before posting up such absurd comments as this. Whitefox, I expected better.

Now onto the real meat.

Quote:
Monday, June 20, 2005
What Did Jesus Do? (WDJD)

W - Would you consider yourself to be a good person? (Yes, No)
Most people don?t mind being asked this question as you are asking them about their favourite subject - themselves. This question is also normally taken well as most people believe that they are good persons. This however reveals something about most people. They are self-righteous. The Bible says: Prov. 16 - 2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes. it also says, Prov. 16 - 25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

One of the problems I've always had with theism is that nobody ever thinks they are wrong, and always feels like they have the patent on what is good and righteous. You are no exception to that rule, Whitefox.

The reason this is so, is because nobody can actually agree as to what it is to be righteous and good. There are so many things commanded of theists (we'll use Christianity here, as that is what this tract is concerning) in the Bible which conflicts with each other one is often doomed either way. We shall discuss this as we go through the rest of your commentary here. But in light of the Bible verses, allow me to retort.

Had you read further down, Proverbs 16:4, it states: “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

Wow. Apparently God created the evil for entertainment - purely for punishment. Remember when I said that I wanted to keep that phrase handy from your website? That's some message of encouragement. You may be one of those people he has created whom he will punish and send to hell for his amusement. Sort of gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

As for the last bit (Prov. 16:25), the preceding and following deal with wisdom. This has nothing to do with a spiritual death or righteousness. But the actual doing of things. For example, it may seem right to jump into the water to save somebody from drowning. But if you can't swim, and the current pulls you under - you're dead. This passage has nothing to do with your point.

And finally, according to the Bible - NONE are righteous. That's right. None. Not you, or me, nor Jesus, or Job, nobody. Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” Funny how reading through the Bible can destroy the very points you're trying to make by using it.

Quote:
D - Do you think you keep the Ten Commandments? (Yes, No)
Some say yes, others say they haven?t. Let?s take a look at them. (from Exod 20)

I'll let you go through the list before I reply.

Quote:
9th commandment - You shall not bear false witness against a neighbour. Have you ever told a lie? (Yes, No, White Lie only)

8th commandment - You shall not steal. Have you ever stolen? Be honest before God. (Yes, No)

7th Commandment - You shall not commit adultery. Bear in mind that Jesus said, Matt 5 - 28 ?But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Have you ever committed adultery? (Yes, No)

3rd commandment - You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Have you ever taken the Lord?s name in vain? (Yes, No)

6th commandment - You shall not murder. Bear in mind also that the Bible says, if you have ever hated anyone you are guilty of murder. Have you ever murdered anyone? (Yes, No)

1st commandment - You shall have no other God?s before me. Have you always put God first in your life? (Yes, No)

2nd commandment - You shall not make for yourself an idol. Have you always worshipped God above all other things that you possess? (Yes, No)

4th commandment - Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. God requires that we keep one day out of seven to rest and acknowledge Him. How many times have you broken the Sabbath? (None, Several, Seldom)

5th commandment - Honor your father and mother. Have you always treated your parents in a way that is pleasing to God? (Yes, No)

10th commandment - You shall not covet.. anything that belongs to your neighbour. Have you ever been jealous or desired something that your neighbour has? If you have you reveal your lack of gratitude for what God has given you. (Yes, No)

I'm guessing you listed this in the most important order to you? Either way, let's see how well God and Jesus compare to the questions above, and compare that to other people we know of.

Throughout the Old and New Testaments, the Ten Commandments (and all others - over 600 statutes) are looked at as the law. Several times in the OT; we are commanded to uphold them, and neither add to or diminish from them.

  1. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it” (Deut. 12:32)
  2. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” (Prov. 30:6).
  3. And we can't forget the most chilling one from Rev. 22:18-19, ”If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.”
]

Even Jesus himself claims that not one line of the old law shall be tampered with:

  1. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven....” (Matt. 5:17-19)
  2. ”It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall” (Luke 16:17)
  3. ”The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do” (Matt. 23:2-3, John 7:19, Mark 1:44)
]

Yet Jesus breaks his own maxim repeatedly, indeed he is his own worse enemy!

  1. MATT. 19:17-19, '...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother: and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself'.

    Jesus omitted 5 of the 10 commandments and created one of his own 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself'.

  2. Mark 10:17-19, “Good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life. And Jesus said to him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and thy mother...and go thy way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven and come, take up the cross and follow me.”

    Once more we see Jesus omitted commandments and adds another, “defraud not”.

  3. Some other examples of Jesus toying with the law:

    1. In Matt. 15:11 and Mark 7:15, 18-19 he denied the OT dietary laws;
    2. In Matt. 15:2-3, 20 and Luke 11:37-38 he denied the OT laws requiring the washing of hands;
    3. In Matt. 12:1-6, 8, 10-13, Luke 13:10-16, John 5:8-11, and Mark 2:23-28 he ignored the restrictions as to what can be done on the sabbath.
    4. In Matt. 9:14-15, Mark 2:18-20, and John 8:4-11 he denied the OT law requiring fasting.
    5. In Matt. 5:32 (“...and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery”) he forbid a divorced woman to remarry which repeals the OT law found in Deut. 24:1-2 that allows a divorced woman to remarry.
    6. In Matt. 5:39 (“...but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also”) he abolished the OT requirement in Ex. 21:23-24 of an eye for an eye.
    7. In Matt. 5:34-35 (“But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool....”) Jesus prohibited swearing oaths which the Old Law allowed in Deut. 6:13 (“Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name”).
    ]
]

Jesus also violates the commandments as well:

  1. He does not honor parents, not his parents (Nor does he promote family values):

    1. ”If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26).
    2. ”I am come to set man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household” (Matt. 10:35-36).
    3. ”Woman, what have I to do with thee?” (To his mother) (John 2:4).
    ]

  2. Jesus lies:

    1. John 14:12-14 (“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do.... If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it”), John 15:7 (“If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you”), John 15:16, 16:23 (“whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you”), and Matt. 21:22 (“And all things whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive”) contend prayers will provide everything requested. Yet, millions of believers have prayed to Jesus millions of times and met only failure. His promise of the universal efficacy of prayer has proven as miserable a sham as his promise of all power to those with faith.

    2. John 7:8-10, “Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.” Jesus broke his promise [word] by going up secretly after saying he wouldn't.

      1. ”While Jesus spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, my daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live” (Matt. 9:18).

      1. ”Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.” (Matt. 9:18) If the ruler's daughter was dead, then, Jesus lied. If she was not dead, then he performed no miracle.

  3. Jesus worked on the Sabbath day:

    1. ”And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done those things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work'. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath....”(John 5:16-18 )

  4. He broke two commandments at once by stealing and breaking the sabbath:

    1. ”And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.” (Mark 2:23)

  5. He encouraged stealing:

    1. And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me'.” (Matthew 21).

God goes against his commandments as well:

  1. He condones and orders adultry:

    1. ”But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves” (Num. 31:18)
    2. ”Go take unto thee a wife of whoredoms, and children of whoredoms, for the land hath committed great whoredom departing from the Lord.” (Hosea 1:2)
    3. ”This is what the Lord says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel” (2 Sam. 12:11-12).

  2. He orders stealing:

    1. ”...and ye shall spoil the Egyptians” (Ex. 3:22).
    2. ”...and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God” (Ezek. 39:10).
    3. ”As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies” (Deut. 20:14).

  3. He kills repeatedly:

    1. ”there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the 250 men that offered incense” (Num. 16:35).
    2. ”the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died” (Num. 21:6).
    3. ”See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal....” (Deut. 32:39).
    4. ”The Lord smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people 50,070 men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter” (1 Sam. 6:19).
    5. ”The Lord kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up” (1 Sam. 2:6).
    6. ”the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them....” (1 Sam. 5:6).
    7. ”it came to pass about 10 days after, that the Lord smote Nabal, that he died” (1 Sam. 25:38).
    8. ”Who smote great nations and slew mighty kings....” (Psalms 135:10).
    9. ”For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many” (Isaiah 66:16).
    10. ”I will dash them one against another, even the father and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them” (Jer. 13:14).
    11. ”I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword....” (Amos 4:10).
    12. ”For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29).
    13. Also note: Gen. 38:7,10, Ex. 22:23-24, Num. 11:1, Deut. 32:41-42, Joshua 10:10-11, 1 Sam. 5:9, Psalms 136:17-18, Hosea 9:16, Amos 2:3, Ex. 4:24, 2 Sam. 6:6-7, and 2 Kings 5:7

  4. He intentionally gave out bad laws:

    1. Ezek. 20:25 says, “I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by....”

  5. He lies and decieves:

    1. ”O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived....” (Jer. 20:7).
    2. ”if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel” (Ezek. 14:9).
    3. ”Ah, Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches unto the soul” (Jer. 4:10).
    4. ”...God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess. 2:9-12).
    5. See also: 2 Chron. 18:18-22, 1 Kings 22:20-23 and Jer. 15:18.

And one need only look at the Patriarchs to see they were not followers of the law either:

  1. ABSALOM--
    1. ordered killings (2 Sam. 13:28-29 RSV)
    2. had sex in the open (2 Sam. 16:22 RSV);

  2. AMON--
    1. raped his sister, Tamar (2 Sam. 13:11-14 RSV);

  3. ABIMELECH--
    1. killed a city's inhabitants (Jud. 9:45 RSV);
    2. murdered wantonly (Jud. 9:5);

  4. EHUD--
    1. murdered king Eglon (Jud. 3:21-22 RSV);

  5. ELIJAH--
    1. committed murder (1 Kings 18:40);

  6. ELISHA--
    1. lied (2 Kings 6:19),
    2. told a man a lie (2 Kings 8:10 RSV),
    3. cursed 42 small boys to be torn apart for mocking his bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24 RSV);

  7. GIDEON--
    1. killed (Jud. 8:16:17 the Living Bible),
    2. murdered prisoners (Jud. 8:21 RSV),
    3. engaged in polygamy (Jud. 8:30);

  8. ISSAC--
    1. lied (Gen. 26:6-7)
    2. attempted to sacrifice his wife to save himself (Gen. 26:9);

  9. JACOB--
    1. swindled Esau out of his birthright (Gen. 25:31-33 RSV),
    2. cheated and lied (Gen. 27:19, 30:40-43 RSV)
    3. lied to Rachel (Gen. 29:12);

  10. JEHOIDA--
    1. ordered a murder (2 Kings 11:15-16 RSV);

  11. JEHU--
    1. killed (Kings 9:24, 27, 10:11, 17),
    2. ordered killings (2 Kings 10:6-7, 14, 25 RSV),
    3. deceptively lied (2 Kings 10:18-19);

  12. EPHTHAH--
    1. slaughtered people (Jud. 11:33),
    2. killed his own daughter (Jud. 11:39 RSV);

  13. JEREMIAH--
    1. lied (Jer. 38:24-27 NIV);

  14. JOAB--
    1. killed (2 Sam. 3:27, 18:14, 20:10);

  15. JONATHAN--
    1. killed (1 Sam. 14:13-14 NASB),
    2. lied (1 Sam. 20:28);

  16. JOSEPH--
    1. deceived his brothers (Gen. 42:7 NASB)
    2. committed nepotism (Gen. 47:11 RSV);

  17. JOSHUA--
    1. killed and slaughtered without letup (Joshua 6:21, 8:25-28, 10:1, 20, 26-28, 30, 32-33, 35, 37, 39-41, 17-18, 21, 12:7),
    2. murdered prisoners (Josh. 8:29),
    3. hamstrung horses, (Josh. 11:9 RSV);

  18. LABAN--
    1. lied (Gen. 29:15)
    2. deceived (Gen. 29:20-25);

  19. LOT--
    1. offered his virgin daughters to a crowd (Gen. 19:8);

  20. SAMSON--
    1. killed (Jud. 14:19, 15:8, 15),
    2. had sex with a harlot (Jud. 16:1)
    3. lied to Delilah (Jud. 16:10, 13),

  21. SAMUEL--
    1. murdered (1 Sam. 15:33).

Second are those individuals who are not only well known but committed a wider assortment of nefarious activities:

  1. ABRAHAM--
    1. told his wife to lie (Gen. 12:13),
    2. debauched Hagar, his maidservant (Gen. 16:4),
    3. sent his maidservant and her child into the wilderness (Gen. 21:14),
    4. lied (Gen. 20:2),
    5. married his half-sister (Gen. 20:11-12);

  2. SAUL--
    1. used his daughters as a snare (1 Sam. 8:20-21 NIV),
    2. ordered gambling (1 Sam. 14:42),
    3. killed (1 Sam. 15:7-8, 20, 22:18-21),
    4. stripped himself and acted unstable (1Sam. 19:24),
    5. admitted he sinned, played the fool and erred (1 Sam.26:21),
    6. gave David's wife to another man (1 Sam. 25:44),
    7. transgressed God by consulting a medium and being unfaithful (1 Chron. 10:13-14 RSV),

  3. SOLOMON--
    1. ordered murders (1 Kings 2:25 RSV, 2:34, 46),
    2. tried to kill Jeroboam (1 Kings 11:40),
    3. enslaved people (1 Kings 9:21 RSV),
    4. did not keep God's statutes or covenant (1 Kings 11:11 RSV),
    5. did evil (1 Kings 11:6),
    6. lied to his mother (1 Kings 2:20-21 RSV, 2:25).

According to 2 Chron. 30:16 Moses was the Man of God; yet, he...

  1. murdered an Egyptian (Ex. 2:12),
  2. ordered an armed attack (Num. 31:3, 6),
  3. ordered the murder of prisoners (Num. 31:17),
  4. ordered the keeping of young female prisoners for several reasons (Num. 31:17),
  5. led mass killings of women and children (Deut. 2:34, 3:3, 6),
  6. ordered killings (Deut. 13:15, 20:13),
  7. blasphemously wrote he was a greater prophet than Jesus (Deut. 34:10 NASB),
  8. had a son out of wedlock (Ex. 2:21-22),
  9. was excluded by God from Canaan for four different reasons:
    1. unbelief (Num 20:12),
    2. rebellion (Num. 27:12-14 RSV),
    3. trespassing (Deut. 13:51-52),
    4. rash words (Psalm 106:32-33 NIV).

David...Despite all of the above, no individual in the Bible had a more disreputable, more scandalous career. Although the recipient of numerous accolades:

  1. He killed (1 Sam. 17:50-51 RSV, 18:7, 27, 19:8, 23:5, 30:17, 2 Sam. 8:1, 2, 5, 13),
  2. ordered murders (2 Sam. 1:15, 4:5-12),
  3. ordered prisoners to be killed (2 Sam. 12:2931, 1 Chron. 20:3, 2 Sam. 8:1-2),
  4. committed unprovoked aggression and mass killing (1 Sam. 27:8-11, 2 Sam. 5:20, 25),
  5. gave up seven of Saul's descendants to be killed (2 Sam. 21:1-6, 9),
  6. requested that Joab be killed (1 Kings 2:5-6),
  7. intentionally arranged for Uriah to be killed in order to seize his wife (2 Sam. 11:14-17),
  8. displeased the Lord (2 Sam. 11:26-27),
  9. impregnated another man's wife, committing adultery in the process (2 Sam. 11:2-5),
  10. wasn't allowed to build God's house because he was a man of war and bloodshed (1 Chron. 22:7-8),
  11. lied (1 Sam. 21:1-2, 27:8-10),
  12. told Jonathan to lie (1 Sam. 20:5-6),
  13. admitted he sinned by taking a census (2 Sam. 24:10, 17, 1 Chron. 21: 8, 17)
  14. committed extortion (1 Sam. 25:2-8),
  15. prophesied incorrectly in his heart (1 Sam. 27:1),
  16. sent out a spy (2 Sam. 16:36),
  17. hamstrung horses (2 Sam. 8:4),
  18. locked up 10 concubines for life for no apparent reason (2 Sam. 20:3),
  19. committed bigamy (2 Sam. 3:2-3),
  20. committed polygamy (2 Sam. 5:12),
  21. despised the word of the Lord (2 Sam. 12: 9-11),
  22. admitted he sinned by causing Uriah's death and taking his wife (2 Sam. 12:13-14),
  23. exposed himself like a pervert (2 Sam. 6:20).

Anyone approaching the Bible for goodness, decency, role models, and morality, enters at his own peril. The Bible is a festering pit of evil.

The Bible is so full of contradictions, in so many different areas, it is astounding how intelligent people can still claim it to be inerrant. One must wonder to the level of mental scaring such lies they tell themselves has caused.

The Bible claims, "... and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16) With all the contradictions of the Bible, is it a wonder why this has never materialized?

As a final quote from Mr. McKinsey, "One can easily understand how a book as inconsistent as the Bible has given rise to more that fifteen hundred separate Christian denominations. The deficiency lies not so much with the preachers as the book from which they preach."

Indeed I couldn't have said it better.

Remember that phrase again? "A portal to Gods word and messages of encouragement" We should all strive to be more like God and Jesus, and in so be the evil God created. That is, after all, what we are supposed to do, Whitefox? Follow the word of God? Let's continue debunking your site, The Bible Door.

PART II

Quote:
J - On the day of Judgement, if God judges you by the Ten Commandments, will you be innocent or guilty? (Innocent, Guilty)
The bible says, Rom 3 - 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And it says, 1 John 1 - 10 If we say we have not sinned we call God a liar. The bible tells us, Matt. 12 - 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Ooo, Judgment Day! And the all important “all have sinned” verse from the New Testament. I love the fact that you put that passage in; “All have sinned.” It's such an absolute word. “All.” It's clear, to the point. It doesn't say, “Some have sinned.” It doesn't say, “Most have sinned.” It states, “ALL,” with confidence and generalizations abounding.

I like this quote because of it's purely strict sense. Because this no doubt dabbles in Original Sin. An idea that suggests every human born is held accountable for Adam and Eve's sin. That is what Paul is talking about, after all.

And this is so great, as this goes against the Bible, Ray. “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16). This means that children born - who die are not sinful. It means that people who live good lives are not sinners. It proves your thesis wrong.

And, according to the Bible, not all were born of sin, or sinned during their lives. Such as Job, Elisah, Mary...the list goes on. Heck, even Joseph, “Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man...” Hmm.

You've also opened up a whole can of worms. How are we, humans, judged by God? Is it through words and deeds, as you have suggested here using Matthew? What about with John 5:29, “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

But the Bible conflicts here as well, because it also states that we are ONLY to be saved by faith (or being born again). Such passages include: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16) and “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) So which is it? Is it by words and deeds alone as Jesus said? Or...by faith alone...as...Jesus said? What did Jesus say exactly? One would never know for sure, judging by the Bible. Even if one were to completely give themselves to the teachings in the Bible, you still would have no clue how to be saved. As God is not clear on how we're to be judged.

Quote:
D - Destiny - Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? (Heaven, Hell)
Some people feel that Heaven’s door will be open to everybody, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Dan 12 - 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ahem, according to the Bible, death is the final end. No more life after death - just death.

Job 7:9, “As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.”

Job 20:7, “Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung.”

Pslm 115:17, “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Ecc. 3:19, “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.”

Ecc. 9:5, “The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.”

Ecc. 9:10, “For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

Isaiah 26:14, “They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.”

Isaiah 38:18, “For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”

Shall I go on? In the end, nobody will be going anywhere, as there is no life after death. Wow, what fun it is, showing contradiction after contradiction. I bet you didn't even know these existed, did you?

Quote:
The Bible warns of what it will be like for those that fail to enter into heaven. Jude - 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire?13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Um, God sent “eternal” fire to reign down on the cities. Problem is, it hasn't lasted for an eternity. In fact, noi mention of such an event has ever been documented. Ever. And most assuredly it didn't last for eternity - not even close.

Quote:
The Lord Jesus told us to take steps now to ensure our eternal destination is heaven, Mark 9 - 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched- 44 where ?Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.?

Wow. What a great inspirational statement! What a message of encouragement! Cut off your hands! Everyone! Let's go to the altar right now! Follow Whitefox! Whitefox has to do it first. Just to prove to us he practices what he preaches. Go on Ray, cut off that pesky, sinful hand.

What...can't do it?

Quote:
The Lord Jesus also told us to find the narrow gate. Luke 13 - 24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ?Lord, Lord, open for us,? and He will answer and say to you, ?I do not know you, where you are from,? 26 then you will begin to say, ?We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.? 27But He will say, ?I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.? 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,

Wow, so much here is wrong, it's hard to know where to begin! Jesus says that his disciples must hate their families (mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children) and themselves.

Jesus claims that, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6) A popular phrase used during the inquisition.

Such is Jesus' way, using violence and torture to promote his orders. As Dan Barker asked, “Is this nice? Is it exemplary to make your point with threats of violence? Is hell a kind and peaceful idea?” No, in fact, Jesus is prone to using threat tactics, such as his paranoid statement, “He that is not with me is against me” (Matt. 12:30).

Where was Jesus' family values here? What about when he states “I am come to set man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household” (Matt. 10:35-36). Where ARE these supposed words of encouragement? Where are they when one of his disciples requested time off for his father's funeral, and Jesus rebuked him by saying “Let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22).

To his own mother - which the Bible describes as “highly favored!” - he said, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” (John 2:4).

Some encouragement. I guess Jesus has no problems breaking the commandment, “Honor thy mother and father.”

Quote:
The Lord Jesus gave this warning, Matt 7 - 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ?Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?? 23And then I will declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!?

Both Peter and Paul disagree with this, saying, “Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 2:21, Rom.10:13). Again, absolutes like “whosoever” and “shall be.” Not, “may be” or “possible be”. They SHALL be saved.

Quote:
Do you know what Jesus did for you?
God knows that many consider their own goodness enough to gain them entrance into His heaven. In His fairness he will give you a hearing based on your goodness. And all of the books about your life will be opened and examined. Rev 20 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades [Hell] delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades [Hell] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The outcome of this trial however, will be that unless the Lord Jesus Christ has recorded your name in His book of life, you will suffer the second death which is the lake of fire.

Let me give you a little analogy from a friend of mine, Robert Reames, “If God knows that we will sin “since we are human,” then God also knows that we aren't to blame for our actions since he created us human.

If you build a Ford truck and then expect it to be a Cadillac that's your problem, not the truck's. If you build a Ford truck and somehow grant it the ability to choose to become a Cadillac and it does not, again, what possible blame could you apply to the truck? It's a truck, not a Cadillac. And, finally, if you build a truck with the ability to choose to be a Cadillac and then demand that it become a Cadillac or be junked in the junkyard for all eternity never to be anything but junk in the junkyard with all of the other discarded junk in the junkyard, then why didn't you just build a Cadillac to begin with and leave the poor truck alone?

That's your psychosis acting out and has nothing to do with the truck. It's not its fault for being created a truck; it's your fault for creating it as a truck when what you wanted the whole time was a Cadillac. If you now claim (as so many do) that what you REALLY wanted was for the truck to see how beautiful it could be if only it would CHOOSE to be a Cadillac and that all you ever wanted was for the truck to CHOOSE to be a Cadillac instead of what you created it to be (a truck), then you are more in need of therapy than anything else and should seek serious help, even if you are (and especially if you are) claiming to be God.”

Indeed. God is now punishing us, even though he knows everything that is going to happen, saw it happen before creation as he is omnipotent, he still created us, and then saw everything he already knew was going to happen, play out before him. And then, condemns us for doing exactly what he could have prevented early on. Interesting. That's some encouragement.

Quote:
God has provided a way for you to escape from the Lake of Fire. God loves you so much that He sent His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to suffer and die in your place, taking your punishment for you so that you could live.

God loves you! He loves you so much that he wants you to not feel his wrath! His wrath that he knows he will either cast down on you or not, even if you don't know it! He loves you and his son, but he killed his son. He killed his son because he loves you! He punished his son for YOUR sins. He ... wait...didn't we already cover this one?

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16)

Oh right. Yeah, so if Jesus was taking on all our sins, which we committed...he was held accountable for them and then what? So...God had to break his own rules, and then creates new ones because they were logically flawed...to begin with...? Wow, some God. *rolls eyes*

Again, I pose these questions for you.

People were living quite fine before Jesus came. Living and dying, just like today. What changed? You claim Jesus died for us, so that we could live. But we were living before him. We are still living after him.

And although a magnanimous gesture, how does the death of someone's flesh (even if that someone is supposedly God or God's son) save us from all sin? Remember that a sacrifice is nothing more than a man-made symbolic action and has no actual relevance to anything. There is absolutely no physical altercation, (and if you claim it's spiritual, you're going to have to bring about some actual evidence of spirituality, and then show me how the transformation took place) nothing really happens.

You can sacrifice a goat to make it rain, but that does not mean that it rained because you sacrificed a goat. In the words or Reames, “It’s pure poetry”, but you like every other Christian, are taking it to mean literal fact.

So Ray, explain exactly how this works, I want details, and not the poetic imagery. What is the mechanism of salvation that happens because someone’s flesh died? Not to mention the idea that Jesus is supposed to also be God, so if you persist in misunderstanding the word “sacrifice,” the next question would be, to whom was the sacrifice offered?

And if you are continuing to claim that a sacrifice was made, and we were saved by Jesus, why aren't we born directly into paradise? According to the only authority on this subject (the Bible) the only reason Adam and Eve were cast out of paradise was because of sin. The only reason we are denied entrance into paradise is a result of Adam and Eve sinning

Ignoring the passage which I used above which completely destroys every concept of origional sin, if we, as you say, were cleansed of the original sin from birth by Jesus' death on the cross, then why wouldn't we be birthed directly into paradise?

We did nothing wrong! Adam and Eve did, and as you've just stated, Jesus saved us of original sin two thousand years ago. Why should we be punished today by automatic exclusion from paradise when we have done nothing wrong?

Oh I know. It's the whole, “You have to accept Jesus as your savior” line. So Jesus did not die for us, as you claimed earlier, cleansing us of our sin. It is only when we “accept Jesus as our savior” that the death provides salvation. So you're saying that Jesus put limitations on his gift. All of a sudden we have to do something to get this “gift.” We must accept him to be our savior or we can't be saved.

For what possible reason would a savior require anything of us in order to save us? Isn't that the purpose of a gift that it is given freely without any consideration for anything at all on the part of the gift recipient? This is what you're saying God is doing here, “I'll give you my love and protection but only if you believe that I am God.”

Doesn't that sound a bit egomaniacal to you? As objectively as you can, don't you see what an incredibly non-messianic condition that is, beyond the fact that it makes no basic sense?

Quote:
The Bible says, John 3 - 16 For God So Loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. and again, Rom 5 - 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Then Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death. 1 Cor 15 - 4 ? He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, ? 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once

What exactly do you think Jesus did?

Quote:
The fact that God was willing for His own Son to pay for your sins should leave no question of His love for you, and for righteousness. He will not let sin go unpunished, even if that punishment meant the cross for the Lord Jesus Christ. This enormous sacrifice for your sin ought to make you tremble.

More poetry. You continue to misunderstand (willfully or not) what exactly a sacrifice is. Again I ask, what did Jesus really do for you? If you accept he was a man, then the only thing he did was a symbolic gesture that is completely irrelevant but nice symbolism and if you believe he was God, God can not die nor could he “sacrifice” anything to himself. What would be the point?

Again, Rob Reames put this more eloquently then I have, “I can proclaim that I will die for you so that you will escape jail or punishment or death or whatever and even actually die protecting you so that you don't go to jail or are punished or killed or whatever, but beyond the word play, I haven't actually died for anything at all. I've just died. The poetry may be added later, but that's all it is, poetry. I would have done a magnanimous thing, yes, and you would indeed still be alive if it weren't for my gesture on your behalf. You would thank the memory of me, but I certainly would hope you wouldn't suddenly proclaim that I am God and the One True Savior of Mankind simply because I died “for you.” It would be kind of you, but it wouldn't make it so. You can believe it, but it wouldn't make it so.”

Exactly. And that is where your point fails. You can not suffer a difference between gesture and reality. Between claiming something and actually having evidence. You cannot decipher the gap between opinion and reality.

Quote:
Because Christ died for you he expects you to die to your selfish ambition, pursuits of pleasure and sinful rebellion and to follow Him from now on. He tells you to take your cross and to follow Him. (Matt 10:38)

I find that ironic. Here is what the Bible demands of you in order to be saved, as a true follower of Jesus would have to be extremely poor--as poor as the proverbial churchmouse:

  1. (a) “...none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has” (Luke 14:33);
  2. (b) “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor and you will have riches in heaven” (Matt. 19:21);
  3. (c) “Sell your possessions and give alms” (Luke 12:33);
  4. (d) “But give what is in your cups and plates to the poor, and everything will be clean for you” (Luke 11:41);
  5. (e) “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt,.... But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Matt. 6:19-21);
  6. (f) “How hardly shall they that have riches enter to the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:23);
  7. (g) “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matt. 19:23-24);
  8. (h) A certain ruler told Jesus that he had obeyed all the commandments from his youth up. But, Jesus said, “Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me” (Luke 18:22, Mark 10:21),
  9. (i) Paul said, “For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ” (Phil. 3:8 RSV)

Imagine Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Rex Humbard, Robert Schuller, Herbert W. Armstrong and thousands of other wealthy religious leaders heeding such pronoucements! It's much easier, and far less painful, to rationalize away clear-cut statements than surrender great wealth because of Biblical injunctions. By very right, Ray, by having a computer, you are already breaking God's laws and are subject to hell and fire and brimstone.

In the end, I do know what Jesus did for us, Ray. Nothing. Apparently, you have not yet discovered that fact, or are unwilling to accept it.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)

American Atheist's picture

I like it.

I like it. Laughing out loud

Stealing from the edges of fields comment

I've only skimmed through the article, but one thing I noticed was that you claimed Jesus stole when taking corn from the edges of fields. It was actually customary that farmers not harvest the edges of their fields so that people could take what they needed as they passed by. This was not theft, it was the custom of the day. I suspect that many of the other issues raised here are simply the result of translation issues, lack of context, or lack of understanding of the culture of the day. However, it will require a great deal of additional research on my part to identify which arguments fall into each of these categories. Both Hebrew and Greek had a literary depth that English simply doesn't have. As such, translators are constantly left in a position where they have to pick words that come closest to the original meaning. Unfortunately, this isn't an exact science which is why we have so many separate and disparate versions in print. There's also a likelihood that some of these passages are simply being taken out of context... for further information on this, see Greg Koukl's article "Never read a Bible verse" for the importance of context in any biblical interpretation.

Deus Le Veult wrote:I've

Deus Le Veult wrote:
I've only skimmed through the article, but one thing I noticed was that you claimed Jesus stole when taking corn from the edges of fields. It was actually customary that farmers not harvest the edges of their fields so that people could take what they needed as they passed by. This was not theft, it was the custom of the day. I suspect that many of the other issues raised here are simply the result of translation issues, lack of context, or lack of understanding of the culture of the day. However, it will require a great deal of additional research on my part to identify which arguments fall into each of these categories. Both Hebrew and Greek had a literary depth that English simply doesn't have. As such, translators are constantly left in a position where they have to pick words that come closest to the original meaning. Unfortunately, this isn't an exact science which is why we have so many separate and disparate versions in print. There's also a likelihood that some of these passages are simply being taken out of context... for further information on this, see Greg Koukl's article "Never read a Bible verse" for the importance of context in any biblical interpretation.

That wasn't a violation of "Thou shalt not steal". It was a violation of "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy".

The preparations for the Triumphal Entry was where Jesus commanded theft.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Whitefox's picture

Thank you Rook, for

Thank you Rook, for reviewing my site. And even though your review is so lengthy it does look like you put a lot of effort into it. I will try to answer a few points at a time. Not in one single post by any means. I have not printed out your post yet as my printer needs som attention. So as I write this post I don't have it in front of me. Regarding the Einstein tract. I seem to have lost my GMAIL email address password and this stops me from getting my password for my blog spot sent to me. I hope somehow to resolve this. That tract is deficient and will be pulled. As I said at the bottom I had some doubht as to its authenticity when someone sent it to me. The Bible says that God allows false teachers to enter the church so that we can benefit by it. (My own paraphrase) We benefit becasue they help us to defend ourselves by getting rid of anything false. Thank you Rook. In this case you are the good teacher doing that but even a false one that causes correction is a good thing. Of course my error in producing that tract does not mean the bible or God is in error just that I am a sinner (which means to miss the mark). In fact I am a sinner just as everyone in this forum is a sinner. The only difference is that I have confessed my sin and continue to do so when it is pointed out to me to God. And He has forgiven me and promised me an eternity called "Everlasting Life".

Quote:
Daniel 12:3 says many will awake some to eternal torment and some to everlasting life.
All will however awake. There was a chick tract I recommend you can find it at my site. It is called "This was your Life". No I am not in love with chick tracts but this one is funny. The guy while being carried by an angel up to the great white throne judgement is all the way complaining that he should not exist, he did not want to exist. But he has no choice he finds that he does. The bible also says
Quote:
"It is appointed once for a man to die and after that the judgement."
Regarding the entrance door verses. One verse is written to the church that has locked Jesus out. You have to read the whole chapter to figure that out. We think it also applies to the person who does this but it actually is a church of professing Christians it is written to.
Quote:
Revelation 3 - 20 Behold I stand at the door and knock if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me.
Jesus is saying if anyone in your church invites me in they will get to know me. A sad endictment that some professing Christians fit the category of not knowing Jesus. Jesus in another place said
Quote:
"Many will come to me saying Lord, Lord have not we even cast out demons in your name. He will say be gone from me for I never knew you."
Jesus puts a lot of stock in whether he knows a person or not. In John 14 Jesus was asked where he was going when he announced he was about to permanently depart from his disciples. He answered I go to prepare a place for you then he switched the topic to in effect ask if they are willing to prepare a place for him. Becasue if we do not have a place for him in our hearts we cannot expect him to have a place for us in all of eternity. Hell is a place where we have no access to Jesus becasue that is the way we wanted things to be while we were here on earth regarding whether we had a place for him. The other verse at the door is directed to Christians. In fact it is a promise that the door will be open to them. I don't have the verse in front of me so I will post more on it next time I post to this subject of my website. Once again. Thank you Rook. I will try to respond further including cleanng up my website if necessary. If you can accept such a statement from me God Bless you for your hard efforts.

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com

Cali_Athiest2's picture

Rook_Hawkins. And we can't

Rook_Hawkins. And we can't forget the most chilling one from Rev. 22:18-19,"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this [/quote wrote:

Rook, I hand it to you man. I wish I knew the bible a tenth as well as you. It would be easier to refute a lot of the claims I hear on a daily basis but I am studying your blogs hoping to sharpen my fangs. I did however wonder if this quote above was just part of revelations, or was it added after the Nicean Council? I saw a doc on the History Channel once and thought they said it was added as a warning by the author of revelations only and just a coincidence that it seems to relate to the whole canon. The doc said that it was a common practice for people to change books that were "inspired" so John issued a warning not to change anythng. If this is true it opens up an even bigger can of worms to the accuracy of any text from that period.  

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS

  Rook, you is amazing

  Rook, you is amazing .... so helpful.     and hey Fox

To know the "Christ" is to know oneself, and that is not found in any one book, or a thousand books. Your Jesus wrote nothing. Fox, you need some Buddha/ Science injections. 40 days !? ..... The Bible is one of the greatest books supporting atheism ever written. 

todangst's picture

I have some fun  with the

I have some fun  with the Einstein  urban legend here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_an_urban_legend_evil_is_a_lack_of_something

 

 

 by the way, you have to be pretty uninformed to take urban legends seriously

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.

  Me too Tod,    I gave

  Me too Tod,    

I gave this one a full 12 pack of beer wisdom , and thought, geezzz there is no "absence of ", no freaking ZERO; sratching my head , wondering if I was just super duper dumb !? ....  

Whitefox's picture

New Website to review

I have been busy of late. I have a new blog that I hope to post to in the days to come.  There are 2 free downloadable .pdf's at the site and there is an archived 1 hour interview on one of the Local radion stations in Toronto with Ray Luff (Whitefox) that you can listen to.  If you follow the links from "Ray's CV' blog entry you will find another of his activities recently was to run in the Canadian Federal Election 2008. Some interesting views such as Green Shift is a hoax and regarding Abortion are expressed at that blog as well.  The main blog to review is http://icctruth.blogspot.com

Ray,

 

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com

Caring Whitefox ... if you

Caring Whitefox ... if you ain't god , and telling all the people they are god too, you are wrong, and I reject your message. This a message from me jesus, me god as you.

Whitefox's picture

I have put back up my

I have put back up my website again www.bibledoor.com and there is a new website www.truthiswhatmatters.com  We will be doing some podcasts there and we will be looking for persons to call into the show who wish to debate the topic of Truth.  Please visit the site. Be nice in your comments. Genuine opinions will be posted but attacks on the site will be rejected.

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com