Question for our Christian visitors

Randalllord
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Question for our Christian visitors

Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


goodeh
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The law was nailed to the

The law was nailed to the cross.

Jesus died. Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day.

Believe this in your heart, and say it with your mouth, and you will be saved.

 

Jesus went with the clouds.

Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall behold him.


goodeh
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Oops. I erred. an

Oops. I erred. an ommission. a perjury. I hate that.

What I meant to say is:

Jesus is Lord. God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day.

Believe this in your heart, and say it with your mouth and you will be saved.

(oops, I am lazy. this is a quote from the bible, but I don't remember the chapter/verse #. But, anyone can use www.bibledatabase.com and search for this chapter/verse)


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Goodeh, let me be the first

Goodeh, let me be the first to let you know that not many people here will care if you quote the bible accurately or not; proselytizing is not okay.  The fact that you've got five posts and three of them are inane quotations of verse irrelevant and unhelpful to this discussion has urged me to give you fair warning.  Someone else won't.  Someone else will be much more direct than me.  You should keep quiet if all you can do is quote verse and tell a forum full of Atheists that the devil is the accuser.  If it wasn't so absurd, it would be insulting.  I'm not sure someone else won't find it insulting.  In any case, a moderator will tell you very soon that you're violating rules.  Simply and kindly, stop!

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Randalllord wrote: Judge

Randalllord wrote:
Judge Moore, by displaying the 10C's in the courthouse, was asserting that our legal system was based not just on the Bible but rather specifically the laws of the Old Testament. As we have pointed out in this thread and many others, this is historically/factually incorrect and violates the 1st admendment of the US Constitution. My original question was more to the point that many Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the laws of the OT and they were now little more than a historical amusement. That being the case, why did they want the 10C's displayed in public buildings? Like any good attorney, I knew the answer before I asked the question. I just wanted to see the Christian Apologist do their mental backflips trying to answer in a rational manner and have it on public display for all to see.

All assertions aside, and since I can't speak for what "many Christians claim", I know that the 10C's contain basic rules that every man should follow. Logically, they all make sense to me, and I try to live by all of them because they are a good guideline to follow.

It seems to me that the problem you have with them is that they came from the Bible, and since the Bible is irrational, products of the Bible represent irrational thought. That's not always the case. Not only is the Bible the #1 best selling book of all time, its one of the oldest (yet revised) piece of literature we, as a people, still have. It also seems, based on the intention of your orginal question, that you are trying to get Christians to answer a question about why they are hypocrits, in order to put them "on display for all to see".

 So what is the real problem you have with the 10Cs? Are you just against anything that is derived from religion, or any religious teaching?


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r3lic wrote: Randalllord

r3lic wrote:

Randalllord wrote:
Judge Moore, by displaying the 10C's in the courthouse, was asserting that our legal system was based not just on the Bible but rather specifically the laws of the Old Testament. As we have pointed out in this thread and many others, this is historically/factually incorrect and violates the 1st admendment of the US Constitution. My original question was more to the point that many Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the laws of the OT and they were now little more than a historical amusement. That being the case, why did they want the 10C's displayed in public buildings? Like any good attorney, I knew the answer before I asked the question. I just wanted to see the Christian Apologist do their mental backflips trying to answer in a rational manner and have it on public display for all to see.

All assertions aside, and since I can't speak for what "many Christians claim", I know that the 10C's contain basic rules that every man should follow. Logically, they all make sense to me, and I try to live by all of them because they are a good guideline to follow.

It seems to me that the problem you have with them is that they came from the Bible, and since the Bible is irrational, products of the Bible represent irrational thought. That's not always the case. Not only is the Bible the #1 best selling book of all time, its one of the oldest (yet revised) piece of literature we, as a people, still have. It also seems, based on the intention of your orginal question, that you are trying to get Christians to answer a question about why they are hypocrits, in order to put them "on display for all to see".

So what is the real problem you have with the 10Cs? Are you just against anything that is derived from religion, or any religious teaching?

1. Displaying the 10C's in the courthouse violate the 1st Admendment to the US Constitution as it implies the US laws are based on them (which is false).

 2. The 10C's have little to do with morality and they cretainly are not the only source of it. Do we really need for God to tell us that murder and theft is wrong? If yes, then we are a pathetic species. Morality coem from the social contract, we act accordingly to how we want to be treated. And no, Jesus was not the first to say that.

3. I'm against promoting any flavor of magical thinking. Even people like Charles Manson and Hitler will get some things correct but I dont promote their good ideas and then give them credit too. The Bible is full of injustice and violence to women, children and especially non-believers. I certainly am not in favor of taking a few lines from the Bible or any religious book that may seem failry nice and pretending that it forms the basis of our legal system. 

 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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It seems that you have been

It seems that you have been misinformed. The bible teaches that Christ came to fullfill the Law, not to abolish them, see matthew chapter 5 where he explicitly says so. When the bible speaks of "the law" it is not always referring to the 10 commandments ONLY. In John 5 Jesus clears this up when he tells the pharisees that the whole Old testament spoke of him. In luke 24 Christ explicitly states this as well, telling the men that they were foolish for not believing all that was written about him in the scriptures. As far as the 10 commandments go, the New Testament is clear that they are still binding on all Christians. In fact, if you read matt 5 which i quoted above, Christ goes through a few of the commandments to show that they apply not just to outward actions but God intended them to apply to the motives of the heart as well. Note the "but I say to you" emphasis of Christ as being the proper interpreter of God's law. James and Paul also are constantly pointing out that the commandments are still binding. So Christians get upset because people are attempting to remove God's immutable law, that is necesarrily so by virtue of it being simply an emanation of his immutable nature. I hope that helps to clearify the misunderstanding.


butch
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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise a

Well Here I am, A believer in Christ to answer your question. Pick up your jaws...

Religion my Atheist friends is a set of rules and regulations.  Say if I dont read my bible everyday  then I may loose my soul to hell, thats religion. On the other hand  We christians, the true ones, live by God's grace. Because of our faith In Jesus and HIS WORK on a cross, we are saved. Its not what we did to get to God, its what God did to come to us. Now then any one who has religion may beexpected or expects themselves to jump through the religious hoops, but as those who God first chose threw the Son Jesus, We are preordained, Justified, validated,sanctified to the Body of Christ (church or congregation) of brothers and sisters. Those who have not acceppted what Jesus did, are not saved, andtheir religion as it were, denotes this. But we my friends, are a people of faith. Of course we mess up! who doesnt? But we are quick to ask forgiveness, because even the Holy Spirit who is in us interceeds for us to the Father (God) He does not see me, He sees Jesus. My sins are forgiven. The sins we have denote our nature from God's nature which is all the good things you can imagine. Love peace joy, patience happiness, etc. Any that doesnt fit this criteria is not of God, in other words is not Holy as God is Holy. So We needed a different way out of this overwhelming standard to living in God's Image. So this is where Jesus comes in. He meets God's standards by his death for us. He rose again because Heis God the Son. The very physical manifestation of The Father. He  the the father , and in Preincarnate of the form He came to the Earth in, was with God and designed and created all things. He is the Word, because the thoughts or Gods invisible qualities became real and visible in  Jesus as the world was made. The trinity could be described as this, Thought (God the Father) Word (God the Son) Action(God the Spirit) The Spirit of God was the creatin force of the Word of God (jesus) and the Word was the thoughts of God the father.

Other than this there is a christian religion,and there is christian faith, Those who live by faith understand that nothing we can do will please God unless we accept His Son Jesus. So we are dead to any laws in the Bible and alive in Christ and thence dead to sin, We are covered by the blood and the laws of the 10 commandments do not apply to us. But we are commanded to live another  rule, one of love that is to Love God with everything we are and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

 Religion says God helps those who help themselves, and this is a severe fallacy of alot of so called protestant denominations as well as the catholic church. I s y to you by faith and i know my God has given me wisdom in this. That yes God helps those who help themselves, bvut those who help themselves to HIM. When all you want and desire is God, then you have truly known the meaning of Jesus work for you on the Cross. If you read the Bible every day and help others , seek justice for those who were treated unjustly,and love God more than anything in this worlld you have have Him in you, because you sought out Jesus , and then you  see God's acceptance of you because of Jesus and you cant help but love Him, even when you do sin and Hide from Him you ealize He loves you and He accepts you no matter what. That is a permanent reltionship by faith and it only gets better. But on the other hand say you, read the bible every day say your prayers, take communion and so on, but you go to a priest and ask forgiveness in a booth, or you say Hail mary and such and you regard the Pope as th father of the Church, you really missed the point. You missed Jesus entirely. Now say your a protestant Christian you do all those religious things, and you have hate toward others who wrong you and you do the things your (religion)says not do, then our a fake God's power isnt in you. What we accept by faith is what saves us, what we do in legalism and rules and regulations and in routine outside of christ is religion. You cannot be saved by religion. you are saved by Grace, God's gracein Jesus. If Jesus never died for you on the cross, then you and all the world are damned. But Glory Be to God on High, He has sent Jesus to save you from religious law and practice. You are now saved by Grace, that is He first loved you. WHy Because He is Love and He made you special, He gave you purpose. You are fearfully and wonderfully made.

It is a poor sad person or people who believe theycan make their own purpose that there is no God, no caring loving kind compassionate creator who knows all about you, who loves you for all he created you to be. We find excuses, because we really dont want His love , and thats sin, but He gave us a chance to be redeemed, he created us to have free will. If not free will, then we would be drones. Thats what makes us so special that we have free will, a special uniqueness that tells us we are individuals and God has made us as one of a kind, there uis no other Butch like me I know of. If so we would both occupy the same space at the same time. So if thats impossible, why is not possible that we are all  special and individual? we all have a special purpose to glorify oour God, in that when we do this we find the pleasure of the Father is also our pleasure. John17 best describes this and in my opinion  denominations shouldnt be so divided, but they are and until Christ returns I guess it mabe lik that. So In closing, you Atheist choose to believe , not to believe in God, this is useless. In this you really are practicing religion, because your unbelief is religious, its a law, rule a regulation to choose tosay God is not real. It probaly would be Better to be as Albert Ellis and admit if God does exsist you dont see Him. Atleast mr. Ellis was called a Probablistic atheist. But the Atheist Isee say there is no possibility ofGod exsisting, and even in that you cant prove he doesnt. So what does that say about you?

So it boils down to this, If God, threw the Son has caled you then you belong to Him, He wants to show you His love and Mercy, only if you will let Him, So this form is not a religion, because by the grace of God He disires to set you free threw His son Jesus. You have a place in all creation, No other in creation is below you or above you, we are all equal to God no matter who we are.

Secondly If He has not called you yet, He has His own timing, and has a special reason , time and place when He may call you to be His child.  The Holy spirit may call you right now, 10 meniutes from now, next yerar, befre jesus comes after the tribulation etc. Its not God's desire that any of His created children should persih ,but all would come to Him and seek forgiveness, from a merciful and Compassionate God, who is eager to forgive. So until then, some of us mock Him and some of us flock to Him. In the end if He has called you to show his great pleasure to you, you will know. My personal thought is when every knee has bowed and every tongue confess, Our God  threw Jesus willrestore all of man to Himself, atleast that is my hope that no one is lost. WHy would God create you only to send you to Hell. He is not wastefull. So stop saying I deny the Holy spirit, and not fearing hell, because could it be as with Jesus on the Cross God says ok they dont know what ther saying...Hell is meant for the demons and satan, NOT YOU!!!

God Bless you all, ATHEIST and Christian, wether religious or faithful, and of other Religions outside of Christianity.

Peace be with you as He gives, not the false peace of the world. AMEN

Butch /Sute Up


butch
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Re: Question for our Christian visitors

Thats a great Question and also please refer to my other answer I have given. Well VIP some of us are religious and some of us are in and living faith. Jesus gave a new law and said love God with everything you are and you have and love others as yourself. Thats the law of Grace. Now some other immature christians or beginner christians, confused or what ever. maybe some catholics believe they should raise a stink about the 10 commandments being taken out of schools  public areas and so forth. But we should be thankful for what we are given,  and not for what is taken from us. Long before that  monument was even thought to be placed there God's word was in this world. So yes we are saved by grace and in grace i mean that what we tried to do in religion , Jesus did for us in faith in Him by God's grace. Those who live by ffaith are not religios, but those who are concerned about an material object in a school or public place are really materialistic and even though they may or may not be saved by their faith, they dont really get what grace is and really thats ok, and that produces more faith when God lets these thigs be taken away. They become a centerpiece a focal point, and God says no! My Son is the focus not some granite in the courthouse sguare or a bronze plaque on a wall. We as christians are to focus on Christ. ANything other than this is not of God, We are not to revere idols made with hands in anyform. This piece of granite becomes a sort of altar, an idol to get closer to God much like the pope is for the Roman catholic church. Jesus says follow me! Not the graven image in the square that looks like me or has the words of my Father.

 

Again a great question. One that should catch everyone's attention. Please  spread this, and thank you!!!


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Re:It seems that you have been misinformed.

doublepost


butch
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Re:It seems that you have been misinformed.

doublepost


butch
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Re:It seems that you have been misinformed.

 I agree with you smitty, lets remember too that we are saved by grace, not by law. The law is religious. It points out the need to have a saviour to get people or the jews in this case from the terrible burden of the law which no one can keep on his own. The Law of love or grace  combines the 10c's and yet superceeds them. This is why the Old Testament is as Important as the New. Yet while we are to keep the law, 10cs we are to really know whya nd what they mean whic you stated in  Matt 5, Jesus explains the 10 cs and then applies the sum of the law , which is the Golden Rule, So while we are still under the law, it is not a law that brings death, but it brings life, and because we have the Grace of chrst in us, and sothe law  is not hard to follow because the spirit guides us in all these things whereas before, a mess up would cause death unless an offering for the sin was made. Sonow as i may have said we are under the law of grace, and not of death. If we fail to accidentaly not follow the law that doesnt mean we face death, we are still saved by God's grace, and the Holy Spirit helps in praying to the Father for us. So then the standard we follow is a standard Jesus met for us. and the old standard could never be achieved by man, so that is why there were Levitical priest , or a foretaste of Christ in the world. As you know now there are no more levitical priest because the Law of grace applies now. Some jews who want the temple to be rebuilt may not  truly understand this, because God clearly says, I am tired of your feast and offerings, . What I want is true worship, those who help the poor stand up for the rights of widows and those who help orphans. Jesus proved it all by becoming the offering for us so we would not be subjected to the penalty of the law which is Death.


butch
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To Thomathy

regarding  goodeh,

 How is it that he violated so called rules while he only stated his beliefs? As far as Atheist, Ive only seen a few and several other Christians. Im very inspired and not insulted in the least........To tell him simply and kindly stop is a bullying technique. So your request is even moreso.


Fight Against Satan
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According to the book "10

According to the book "10 Most Common Objections to Christianity" by Alex McFarland on pages 77-78 "scholars of all theological varieties agree that the laws of the Old Testament fall into three categories: the ceremonial laws, the hygienic laws, and the moral laws. The ceremonial laws were laws specific to the Jewish Temple and to the worship of God in that temple. These laws, clearly, do not apply to Christians today. The so-called "hygienic laws" were given to protect God's people from things that were bad for them...But, again, these laws were not for all time.

"The moral laws of God are those given to us because to violate them would be to violate God's standards and order for the universe He created. These laws are unchanging because they reflect the character and mind of God, whose character and mind are unchanging."

Therefore, those Christians who say that none of the Old Testament laws are relevant today are wrong. The moral laws are still in affect, and I'm almost positive that all of the laws in the 10 Commandments were stated again in the New Testament. Because this is the case, are we still wrong in trying to keep the 10 Commandments in public places?


FranklinRobertson
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Greetings and Salutations to

Greetings and Salutations to you. Maybe I can make a point. Of course, I can only give you my views toward this question as I don’t speak for every Christian. Just to explain who I am since I am new to this forum, I am a seminary student who plans on gaining a MATS degree in Theological Study and from there a PhD in Old Testament Theology. Thus I will give my views concerning the Law and Christianity. I would call myself a fundamentalist in terms of how my beliefs are structured, but I do not consider myself a Pat Robertson "flag waving fan" so to speak. Don’t really care for the chap one way or another. But I digress. I for one, please understand, do not worry whether the Ten Commandments are shown or not shown. It is up to the people if they would desire to have the Ten Commandments shown anywhere particular. I do believe in separation of Church and State to the sense that I do not wish the Church to tell the State how to run every small nuance, then again, I do not wish the State to tell my Church how it must believe and what it must believe. Separation of Church and State is set, ideally, to protect both institutions.

So what do I believe toward the Ten Commandments. Yes I believe that Jesus Christ does fulfill the Ten Commandments, in the sense that prophetically speaking, the Old Testament points toward the Redemptive History that is consummated in Jesus Christ. The promises to Abraham through the promises to David, and forward to Daniel and from there Ezra and company, is fulfilled foundationally in the First Advent of Jesus Christ (that is to say, the First Coming of Jesus Christ). Thus one of the reasons I believe Christians really need to know and comprehend and explore the nuances of the Old Testament. I believe further, however, that Christians need to have a firm grasp of the Ten Commandments (and for a greater extent, the totality of the Torah) because just because we call ourselves Christians doesn’t mean that we are perfect. We as Christians must realize that there is the sin nature that is a part of our being, both in terms of the "physical mind" and the "spiritual mind," you might say. By recognizing and remembering the morality stated in the Ten Commandments, Christians will be able to (to an extent) do the duty that is there for us.

The Ten Commandments might seem outdated in this relativistic and postmodern day and age we may be living in, but I disagree. The sins that are found by turning away from the Ten Commandments are sins that break apart the foundation of our society. For example, adultery is not a victimless action. Adultery not only hurts the man and wife, but also hurts the children, along with the rest of the family on both sides. Another example hatred, murderous hatred, has shown time and time again to be a sin borne of spirit and, when brought into fruition physically, produces only pain and suffering for everyone. Might I point toward Mr. O J Simpson as an example of anger producing murder. To an extent, the Ten Commandments are there to show us that there is indeed something wrong with the human equation. That the human equation is not just a bit off to the side, but down right fallen and broken and torn. Humans are not basically good people, when we get the chance, we will stick it to the next fellow whenever we can. Thus is the reason why there is the need for a Savior, to bring about the healing that is needed for our broken selves.

Just because we Christians are under grace does not mean we have a license to do whatever we wish to. In fact, I would have to say that from my own views as a Christian who has been a Christian for only about six some years (I’m 35), the more we are Christian and live the Christian life toward God through Christ, the more we are given grace the more we must recognize all that we should not do. Grace is not a permission slip to eat drink and be merry. Grace makes us realize, when we allow grace to work in our lives, which we do by the way have the choice, that there are consequences to the actions that we take. Every action, those of you familiar with the old say, does have an equal and opposite reaction. Look at the pain and suffering caused when a minister, or a chap who calls himself a minister, commits adultery with someone in his work force or steals the money that hard working people send to his ministry. Grace makes us recognize that through Christ we must do our best not to fall into the sins, and if we do, to seek forgiveness before worse comes to worse. If we don’t then, as the saying goes, there will be heck to pay for everyone.

I hope that I have given you some small thought considering the question that you asked. I doubt I answered all your questions though. As a Christian while I don’t believe that (if the people wish it) the Ten Commandments to be viewed or not is inconsequential, and in this democracy it should be the people that speak up and make the case, I also believe that Christians should not just think ourselves lucky for being given the grace we are given and thus forget about the serious charge of sinfulness that is there and recognizable. What we do in life always creates a chain reaction, whether we realize it or not. If we think ourselves under grace and then go out and commit adultery, or steal, or what not, we will have far more to answer than we realize. Of course even if we have a secular government and society, I believe that there is still some reason for us to stop and think before we commit to breaking the Ten Commandments. Even if as the majority of you believe there is no God, I am sure that you would agree that we should recognize that there are reactions and consequences to what we do when we live our life.


crazytheist
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You asked

 1) Most Christians like the 10 Commandments.

2) Jeuse only fulfilled Old Testament law, he did not replace it. 

3) Most Christians  don't get the whole "Church, State separation" thing.  

Some think that "Christianity" is the only real "Religion" out there. One more thing some think all, or almost all the founding fathers where devout Christians.  This is opinion of why. If I'm wrong. I'm wrong.


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I completely agree,

I completely agree, Randalllord---it's kinda dumb for Christians who say they are saved by grace to fall back on something like that.

Let me just say that those Christians are probably poorly representing the faith as a whole.

In Paul's letter to the Galatians, Paul tells us that in fact, no one was EVER saved by the law--they were saved by God's promise to Abraham 430 years before the law was given. The law was given in a time and place so that the people could survive in the wilderness. As such, I couldn't care less if the 10 commandments do or don't appear in a courthouse.

It's too bad that some people want to judge authentic Christ-followers by those who are only serving themselves. So, please, don't let that fact taint your view of Christians around the world.

peace,


I AM GOD AS YOU
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    "almost all the

Quote: "almost all the founding fathers were devout Christians" /////

Yicks geez , not that shit again,

an Atheist jehad is in order .... to the end of conspiracy/terrorism .... to the death of lies .... fuck paul/saul , that liar maniac talented retard .....

Jesus was atheistic, Paul is another murderess retard ....  and the bible is the more the devils book .... of wrong thinking, .... xains blow the devil, on their knees .... get a picture, keep them xains praying, forever on their knees ..... that is where they belong, .....

I dig jesus, but paul helped finish the job of disposing of him. As far as the OT, I'm with George Carlin regarding the big 10, get real ....


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Many of you do not know

Many of you do not know anything about theology, which is ironic, considering that you are arguing about it in great length. However, I am here to shed light onto your ignorance and inform you of what you do not yet know. I do not blame you for your lack of knowledge on this subject. Let me inform you:

 

1. God gave us the Mosaic law.
a. There were Moral laws and civil laws
Civil laws (like really obscure laws), do not have to be followed because they are obsolete and irrelevant (such as laws about what type of clothing to wear). "Leviticus was a book written for the Israeli Nation at the time. It was civil law. Civil law is stuff like the speed limit is 55 on I-95. It is not a moral law, but a law for the country.

Listen to this one Civil Law in Deut. 23 that we don't live by today...
DT 23:12 “Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. [13] As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.”

Other stuff like in Exodus is moral law, not civil law - Law written not only for the Israeli nation. So that's why we live by those moral laws and not Israeli civil law. Moral law was intended for everyone – the civil law was not."
i.
b. The purpose of the law was to reveal to man his own sinful nature, to convict him.
2. Jesus came to give us the New Law, or new covenant.
a. Under Christ’s covenant, we are no longer “bound” by the law to do such things as sacrifices to “get right” with God.
b. Where the old law would have us stoned (as retributive payment/sacrifice for sin), the new law of grace has us forgiven through the blood of Christ (the Lamb sacrificed Himself in our place).
c. We are “freed” in essence, from the old law, because where the old law would demand heavy punishment/sacrifice, Christ’s law demands repentance. We no longer have to pay with our lives (death)! What good news!
3. Christ came not to “do away with” the law, but to FULFILL it.
a. This means that you must follow the moral law, the ten commandments, etc.. On the standard of the law, one is convicted and finds himself guilty and “fallen short of the Glory of God”.
b. ***On top of this (and this is key), you must not only follow the moral law but you must follow it to the extent Christ lays out:
i. You must not only refrain from murdering, you must refrain from hating anyone (hate is the same as murder).
ii. You must not only not commit adultery, you mustn’t even look at a woman with lust in your heart.
iii. If a man steals from you, you mustn’t seek revenge (eye for an eye mentality), but you must rather give him even more of what you have.
iv. If someone hits you, do not go seeking justice, just turn the other cheek.
4. Conclusion
a. The old law demanded retributive justice.
i. In light of the law, man is a sinner, so there must be a way to reconcile man to God: this is where sacrifice and punishment came into play. You have taken, so you must give. Everything has to be equalized.
b. Christ paid for our sins, forever equalizing the line.
i. However, the law is made more perfect in what Christ instructs us to do.
ii. Christ’s law: man has broken the law, separating himself from God, Christ sacrificed himself to take man’s sins and to provide a direct communication with God, (reconciliation back with Him).
1. Also, follow the law to a greater extent.
5. Why even follow any law if we have Christ?
a. To be “freed” from the law does not mean “do whatever you want”.
b. To be truly saved, one must repent.
i. Repentance means you change your “attitude” towards sin.
ii. This means hating sin, wanting not to do it, thirsting for righteousness, and following Christ’s law.


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What's really the point?

What most, if not all, of the posts I read overlooked was what Jesus himself said about the law.  When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus summed up the whole torah in one sentence (found in Matthew 22: 34-40) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."  The second most important law was similar: "Love your neighbor as yourself."  Jesus didn't waste hours explaining the theology behind the ten commandments or the rest of the levitical laws--rather, he gave a very simple way to live righteously and well.  Love.  THAT is the point of following Christ, learning to love God and love our neighbors. 

By the way, I think most Christians today get upset when public monuments to faith are attacked for no better reason than they are monuments to faith.  Why should our Christian heritage (yes, America does have a Christian heritage) be stripped away from public buildings simply because some people don't believe it?  I don't think there's any compelling argument to have the ten commandments in courtrooms, other than for the historical preservation of art and architecture, but at the same time, why shouldn't they be there?  No one was ever harmed by being commanded not to steal, or murder, or sleep with his neighbor's wife. 

Cue the "separation of church and state" diatribe...


mat4Christ
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Theist Talking

You Wrote:

Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

I say:

What you don't understand is the relationship between Jesus and the devoted Christian. The Bible says that we are the bride of Christ, so it's a devotion to Jesus that gives us the drive to overcome sin in our lives. It's a marriage, between Jesus and the church, He died for us just as a husband might die for his wife. And we devote ourselves to him, just as a bride would do to a loved husband.

Second, it's not the ten commandments we're worried about. It's the complete seperation of church and state. If you took the ten Cs out and put a cross in We'd have no problem!

Cool P.S. this is my first post = Hi everyone!

 


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Randalllord wrote: Most

Randalllord wrote:
Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

I don't have time to read all the answers in this topic and I apologize if I repeat someone else.
It is important to know that although I'm Christian most Christians are rejecting me as such.
They believe that my belief does not cover their belief.

About the ten commandments.
I do support the idea that we don't need them anymore if we follow Jesus' teaching which is Love.
No single commandment will be broken by one who follows Love.
But because most humans (Christians included) don't know what Love is, they need rules such as the ten commandments.


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    Hey Xians, and ya

    Hey Xians, and ya all,

 Those who wish to be good Christians would of course follow Jesus' advise and be good Taoists Buddhists Confucians ETC as well. Eventually you would say with absolute conviction to one another, "I am god, one with the father/mother". "No other god but me, just as you, to worship" .... the commandments 123

As an atheist I have no problem with the Big 10 message, except that it's prejudicially labeled a Jew/Christian special. IT IS NOT SPECIAL .... I am a world citizen .... of the cosmos too ....

Just as I AM GOD has been saying , ..... ((( about that big 10,

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God… ((( I AM GOD AS YOU - listen to your inner being .....

1- You shall have no other gods before me - ME = I = YOU = ONE

2- You shall not make for yourself an idol - JESUS/BUDDHA etc said I AM ONE WITH GOD, as YE are GOD too ..... WE are ONE.

3- 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' - Be nice to yourself, So you be nice to others, We are ONE.

..... Seems Moses had poor communications skills , oh well, It is our turn to help fix that .... Jesus/Buddha stuggled too , I have the same problem .... (((( beer giggles, burp .....

 Me and prophet sociologist George Carlin won't agree on everything but this is pretty darn good , George Carlin - Defrags the 10 Commandments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWEBbFwU1o

.... as JD311 reminded us in this thread ....

Jesus it could be said did a simular thing http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

The 10 Commandments - Christ's Summation in the New Testament
    About 1,400 years later, the 10 Commandments were summed up in the New Testament at Matthew 22, when Jesus was confronted by the religious "experts" of the day:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

A reflective reading of Christ's teaching reveals that the first four commandments given to the children of Israel are contained in the statement: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." It continues that the last six commandments are enclosed in the statement: "Love your neighbor as yourself." ~~~~

Taoists, Buddhists, Confucians, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, ETC etc all said basially the same things, "WE ARE ONE", so who fucked that up and is still fucking up simple WISDOM and why ? >>> $-$-$-$-$

"Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:34

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2-17

Geezz , Whatever .... what a fucking retarded mess .... mabey run to the hills .... better yet, do 40 days alone in the desert confronting the devil .... Jesus did, got hungry and got pissed at the bare fig tree, .... and Buddha sat under a tree and almost starved, .... thanks for the lesson guys .... will we ever learn ??? I have hope we will .... we do love our kids ....

Religion crap must end ..... go for wisdom and science , Jesus / Buddha / * / would be delighted ....

Be an "Atheist for Love and Compassion" ((( help GOD,  stop seperation .... all is ONE

"ATHEISTS KNOW GOD TOO "

" ATHEISTS ARE BLESSED TOO " Cool


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Truden wrote:

Truden wrote:

About the ten commandments.
I do support the idea that we don't need them anymore if we follow Jesus' teaching which is Love.
No single commandment will be broken by one who follows Love.
But because most humans (Christians included) don't know what Love is, they need rules such as the ten commandments.


Why do you assume most humans don't know what love is? Further, how can you assume, considering the fact that you state most humans don't know what love is, that by following "love" you wouldn't need the commandments. Are you claiming to be one of the few that do understand love? That's a bit presumptuous isn't it?

cheers,
Brain Fork


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   Hear ye ALL ....

   Hear ye ALL .... Please read this telling essay

I am a poor communicator, but this will help.

About 2/3 down you will find Buddha. Mabey Rook has ideas about this .....

"The Gnostic Gospels" [ and Buddha ]  

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

The entire site is imformative of many historians view points , get your "Buddha" on !

 "I am God/Jesus as you"  Wink


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   Hear ye ALL ....

umm, double posted


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Dispensationalism vs Christianity

Hello:

Allow me to interject a few points here that may clear up the confusion. The question in the OP of this thread is a reference to a curious type of theology known as Dispensationalism. This "theology" is relatively new in Christian circles invented by C.S. Scofield circa 1860. It is not at all Christian in what it teaches, yet there are a great many people who call themselves "Christians" and believe it.

One of the distinctives of Dispensationalism is that the "Law" and "Grace" are mutually exclusive. From this "distinctive" many Christians claim that they no longer need to obey the Law (summarized in the Ten Commandments). Consequently, the question of the OP is a good one. Since the question is about Christian practice, then I must answer by explaining the Christian view of things.

The Bible interprets and applies the Ten Commandmsnts on Three (3) different levels. These levels are entitled: (1) The Law of Works, Romans 3:27, (2) The Law of Faith, Romans 3:27, and, (3) The Law of Christ, Galatians 6:2.

In the (1) Law of Works God sets forth the Ten Commandmsnts and requires perfect and perpetual obedience to it in heart, mind, and soul. Thus, we must "work" in order to be righteous before God. In Christian terms this is called "Legalism." In secular terms it is called "religion." Some who hold this view will be found saying, "If my good works are equal to or greater than my bad works, then I will go to heaven." This is a concise summary of all of the major religions in the world except Christianity. The next two levels differentiate Christianity from all other religions.

In (2) The Law of Faith the Bible teaches that there is nothing we can do that can save us from the wrath of God. Sin has tainted all of our works. That all our good works are filthy rags (Is. 64:6) before a holy and just God who will by no means clear the guilty. Since man cannot save himself what was determined to be necessary is for God to save man. Thus the Son of God humbled Himself and became a man in order to save His people. He did this by living a righteous and holy life according to the strict Commandment of the Law of God. He then took upon Himself the penalty of the Law on the Cross. He then stretches forth His arms and invites all to come to Him for Salvation. To those who simply believe on the Name of Jesus the punishment for our sins are laid to His account for our Salvation. And, the righteousness of His life is imputed to us. No work, no effort, no money is required of us. It is all free Grace from start to finish. If Christ is our mediator, then we have nothing to fear.

The third (3) level is the Law of Christ. Jesus, having redeemed us from sin, has given us a new heart to love Him and keep His Commandments. Thus, the law applies to the Christian man not out of slavery to a works-oriented religion, but by the power of the Spirit, of love, and a sound mind. The Christian freed from slavery to sin is now released to love and obey God.

The final observation concerning the Law in the OT is that the Bible divides the Law up into three parts: The Ten Commandments, The Judicial Laws, and the Ceremonial Laws. The Westminster Confession of Faith has good definitions of these and how they relate to the Christian today:

Quote:
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require. WCF Ch. 19, Sect. 3,4.

The Moral Law (10 Commands) are even more applicable to the Christian than to anyone else. How often do we see a Christian lie, or steal, or commit adultery, and how society deals with such? Need I point out Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Baker? How much more severe are these "Christians" dealt with than say an actor? ? or a fisherman?

Thus, the answer to the question of the OP on this thread is that the Law of God applies to all - Christians and Gentiles alike. And, as it is a perfect standard of justice for all law, then it should be a model for our judicial system.


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Great Question..

The purpose of Jesus was not "update" the bible with the New Testament wiping out the old. First he had to save man from sin which entered the world through adam and eve. Some ask, well if God is so perfect and sin free, why did adam and eve rebel. Easy answer; its about free will. God did not make them sin, they chose to. it had a rippling effect throughout mankind. Now, open up to John 3:16. God loved the world so much, he wanted to save man because man is born sinful and needs to be cleansed with the shedding of pure blood. Now you have Jesus, born of the Virgini Mary. Why a virgin? because man is sinful and if Jesus was born of man, how can man save himself? cant happen. So the New Testament, in summary, is about being saved from your sin and learning, but choosing, to live a more pure life. Someone trying to rid the world of the 10 Commandments is simply evil and falls into the bogus teachings of atheism because they are weak. Someone without faith is weak.


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I think you are concluding

I think you are concluding that Christians believe they are under grace and therefore do not have to keep the 10 commandments. I would say Christians believe they are now truly free to obey the 10 commandments as they are affirmed in the New Testament. Thus, the law is not a means to salvation; yet, it is still something we follow as the standard God has given us to know him more and bring glory to his name.


I understand you do not believe in the Bible. I am not trying to persuade you otherwise; I am just trying to answer your question.


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cnkale80 wrote: Now you

cnkale80 wrote:
Now you have Jesus, born of the Virgini Mary. Why a virgin? because man is sinful and if Jesus was born of man, how can man save himself? cant happen.

Yeah, because Jesus was the first "god" born of a virgin - NOT. He is one of several "virgin" births; go ahead, look it up if you dare.

cnkale80 wrote:
Someone trying to rid the world of the 10 Commandments is simply evil and falls into the bogus teachings of atheism because they are weak. Someone without faith is weak.

We beg to differ. Someone who believes in sky-daddies and zombies, and the need to suppress all their natural instincts and urges in order to "glorify" and please their invisible, murderous megalomaniac friend or else suffer an eternity of torment, is weak.

There are no "teachings" of atheism, dolt.

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.


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The reason why Christians

The reason why Christians would like to see such monuments remain is twofold.
1) They serve as a reminder that Right and Wrong was revealed to us not figured out by us by human wisdom.
2) The Bible says the "the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul". The theory is that when you are confronted what is right it will make you remorseful at your shortcommings and that Remorse will lead you to repent and submit to God's rule over you.

The Christian sees moral decay in our society as a direct result of people not wanting to be ruled by revealed knowledge of what is right and wrong. Instead each person is encouraged to discover there own sense of right and wrong from within themselves. This is a faulty place to look for that sense and it explains for Chriistians why we have Columbine and the plethra of school shootings today. The fact that God's laws are being ignored.

Quote:

Jermiah 6 - 19 Hear, O earth! Behold I will certainly bring calamity on this people. THE FRUIT OF THEIR THOUGHTS. Because they have not heeded my words (The Bible) Nor My law, but rejected it.

All the verses fom the Bible which warn agains men looking into themselves for instruction I outlined in this article (for those interested.)
http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_DIY_religions.pdf

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com


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The OT

Whitefox wrote:
The reason why Christians would like to see such monuments remain is twofold. 1) They serve as a reminder that Right and Wrong was revealed to us not figured out by us by human wisdom. 2) The Bible says the "the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul". The theory is that when you are confronted what is right it will make you remorseful at your shortcommings and that Remorse will lead you to repent and submit to God's rule over you. The Christian sees moral decay in our society as a direct result of people not wanting to be ruled by revealed knowledge of what is right and wrong. Instead each person is encouraged to discover there own sense of right and wrong from within themselves. This is a faulty place to look for that sense and it explains for Chriistians why we have Columbine and the plethra of school shootings today. The fact that God's laws are being ignored.
Quote:
Jermiah 6 - 19 Hear, O earth! Behold I will certainly bring calamity on this people. THE FRUIT OF THEIR THOUGHTS. Because they have not heeded my words (The Bible) Nor My law, but rejected it.
All the verses fom the Bible which warn agains men looking into themselves for instruction I outlined in this article (for those interested.) http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_DIY_religions.pdf

 

 

The Christians cannot rationally explain the ot at all it seems. Let's be honest, if you are going to follow any part of the bible- you must follow ALL of it. This is not a "interpretation" issue as the bible is clear on both issues.

to wit;

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

then to your laws..

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)  Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself.  None other then Jesus said so.

 

and again...

 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

 

So you people that think you can casually pick and choose are not only wrong, but appear really stupid when tryiing to apply YOUR interpretation to smooth over your lame position.

 

Mudge

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anything you get free costs more than worth--but you don't find it out until later.


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Whitefox wrote:The reason

Whitefox wrote:

The reason why Christians would like to see such monuments remain is twofold. 1) They serve as a reminder that Right and Wrong was revealed to us not figured out by us by human wisdom.

First of all, you cannot speak for all Christians - only yourself.  It's dishonest to pretend to speak for others.  Of course, Christians have been doing that for thousands of years.  It is no wonder they think nothing of it.  Jesus didn't write one word of your Bible.  And, every last word ascribed to Jesus was crammed into His mouth by people who never met Him.

But, I will accept those as your reasons for getting pissed off, when the Ten Commandments are removed from public buildings.

Now, to address your first reason:

"Right" and "wrong" were not "revealed" to us.  They are arbitrary judgements of MAN.  The reality is that neither "right," nor "wrong," exist.  All that exists are actions, feelings, and thoughts that serve us, both individually and collectively, and those actions, feelings, and thoughts that do not serve us, both individualy and collectively. 

Judgement of actions, feelings, and thoughts as either "good" or "evil" is totally superfluous and causes nothing but conflict, when your ideas of what is "good" and what is "evil" are at variance with the ideas of others about good and evil. 

Your own religion teaches against judgement of things as "good" and "evil" in the story of the Garden of Eden.  JUDGEMENT is the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  You partake of it every time you judge anything as "good" or "evil."  Your Bible tells you NOT to do this.  But, of course, it is extremely hypocritical in that regard, as it goes on to judge all manner of actions, feelings, and thoughts as "evil" (pretending that God would do that which He would tell us not to do).

Whitefox wrote:

2) The Bible says the "the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul". The theory is that when you are confronted what is right it will make you remorseful at your shortcommings and that Remorse will lead you to repent and submit to God's rule over you.

Well, the "theory" falls apart; because no amount of having the ten commandments in front of them has ever stopped anyone from violating them.  What kind of God issues commandments and then stands by and watches them be violated?  Answer:  An IMPOTENT ONE.  But, the Christian God is supposed to be omnipotent.  Furthermore, for God to issue commandments for us to follow is for God to violate the Free Will He gave us.  So, the most that they could ever possibly be is the "ten suggestions."

So, the logical conclusion is that the ten commandments are no such things from God.  If you want to know whether a law is of God or of man, see if you can break it.  If it can be broken, it is a law of man.  If it cannot be broken, it is a law of God.  Pretty simple, really.

Whitefox wrote:

The Christian sees moral decay in our society as a direct result of people not wanting to be ruled by revealed knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Again, you do not speak for others - only yourself.  You really need to break yourself of that habit.  You see, "...moral decay in our society..."  Not all Christians see this the way you see it.

Anyway, the lesson that is being taught to us, including those Christians who will bother to pay attention, is that morality is not something that can be dictated.  It is something that is chosen by the individual for their own reasons.

Our societies can attempt to define and enforce morality; but, our burgeoning prison populations are irrefutable testimony as to their ineffectiveness.  Judgement of morality and punishment clearly do not help us achieve the goals we hoped they would help us achieve.  We need more objective and effective methods that do not include hammering our collective ideas of morality into individuals and punishing them for failure to comply with them.

Christianity has had nearly 2000 years to have the positive effect on humanity that it promises to have.  It has utterly FAILED at uniting us, bringing us peace, or ridding us of the problem IT created, called, "sin."  It's very attempt at a solution to "sin" has only resulted in conflict between Christianity and all other belief systems and people who disagree with it.  Why?  Because, it makes wild unprovable assertions with irrational promises and threats attached, all conditioned upon judgement of an imaginary being that cannot be demonstrated to exist,  and wielded by empty-headed voluntary SHEEP who refuse to use the cognitive skills their very God gave them, in favor of pandering to their own insecurities about death.

Whitefox wrote:

...Instead each person is encouraged to discover there own sense of right and wrong from within themselves. This is a faulty place to look for that sense and it explains for Chriistians why we have Columbine and the plethra of school shootings today.

ANY place is a faulty place to look for a "sense of right and wrong."  Why?  Because, right and wrong are ILLUSORY.   There is no such thing as "right" and "wrong" in a moral sense of the words (as opposed to correct or incorrect, which are more objective and actually have a valid application).  So, to look for a "sense of right and wrong" is to look for a source of conflict, as soon as you encounter anyone else who disagrees with you about your ideas of "right" and "wrong."  Witness EVERY Holy War EVER waged.

Whitefox wrote:

The fact that God's laws are being ignored.

Quote:
Jermiah 6 - 19 Hear, O earth! Behold I will certainly bring calamity on this people. THE FRUIT OF THEIR THOUGHTS. Because they have not heeded my words (The Bible) Nor My law, but rejected it.
All the verses fom the Bible which warn agains men looking into themselves for instruction I outlined in this article (for those interested.) http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_DIY_religions.pdf

God's Laws CANNOT be ignored.  If you want to know whether a law is from God, or not, see if you can break it.  If it can be broken (or ignored), it is a law of MAN.  If it cannot be broken or ignored, it is a law of God.  Your Bible is full of the laws of man.  That you believe it contains the laws of God is merely an expression of your own LACK of faith in God, in favor of faith in the MEN who wrote your Bible.

Why does it indicate a lack of faith in God on your part?  Because, you do not have faith that God could communicate to you in the same manner He supposedly communicated with those who wrote your Bible.  For, if you had faith that God had really communicated with those who wrote your Bible, you would have faith that He could and would communicate with you in the same manner - thus, rendering your Bible completely irrelevant, superfluous, and unnecessary.

Your Bible represents the story of a primitive people and THEIR search for God.  God has given you the same opportunity to discover Him that was given them - and, they didn't have the Bible.  So, you don't need it, either.


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:]

I'm a Christian and I could care less if the Ten Commandments are removed from wherever the are now. Actually, I'm kinda for it.


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   hiirachell, Why do you

   hiirachell, Why do you call yourself a Christian ? I AM an atheist Jesus fan. Wasn't  J an early atheistic god philosophy idea breakthrough ?  Would J be a Xain ?  


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Sometimes I wish I wasn't a

Sometimes I wish I wasn't a Christian, because it's very scary to be one. I call myself a Christian because Jesus is the only one who makes me feel alive, and it's the only thing that explains why i live the way i live, why i want to be better than everyone else, and why it is hard for me to love people.

 

I don't know what an athiest Jesus fan is. I'm new to this site. What's that?


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Well, I AM is kinda a unique

Well, I AM is kinda a unique fellow. Eye-wink But, without trying to put words in his mouth (because I'm sure he'll explain himself, too), my perception of his meaning is that he holds Jesus as an atheist philosopher who was constrained by the time and place to express himself through the judaic framework he was raised in, and that the core of it comes down to: Divinity lies within. You are the master of your own destiny, creator of your own fate. Look not to external sources for the answers to your questions. Prayers, in the end, are usually only useful as a means by which we focus ourselves on a question, and open ourselves up to anything that might seem to give us the answer... and in truth, when something does, be it a voice, or just a vague feeling or impression... it's usually just a corner of our own mind that would otherwise have trouble getting heard over all of the white noise of our daily lives and stresses.

Either that, or I AM's a nut... but a loveable nut! Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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You got it B, sort of the

  You got it B, sort of the Occam's Razor of big J/B , and BTW , my email name is "axenut"  ( axe = guitar )

..... If YOU all ain't god (too) , I feel so sorry for ya !  Jesus and Buddha rocked, then there is stupid religion (the devil of wrong thinking)  Spread the "good word", of ATHEISM !!!   We, ALL,  is ONE (god)  .....    Gods of religion are Devils .....

{  I must add: I don't think of J as a person , but as a philosophy under which many wrote, some good , some bad. Because the religious stress and exadurate the bad, (superstition, fear, dogma, and a separate god to worship, and make J an idol) , ....  I stress and even exadurate, the good, an atheistic J of being ONE with the (father) Cosmos. "Christ in me" , and you , and all. "This is the kingdom/heaven NOW to eyes that can see"  .....

    I try to work with the religious words as I see the truth, to help heal the theists, and give the atheists more fuel. "Love (understand) the enemy" Jesus did say ..... Buddha too ! , Thanks J/B .......    

 

 


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Mudge wrote:Whitefox

Mudge wrote:

Whitefox wrote:
The reason why Christians would like to see such monuments remain is twofold. 1) They serve as a reminder that Right and Wrong was revealed to us not figured out by us by human wisdom. 2) The Bible says the "the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul". The theory is that when you are confronted what is right it will make you remorseful at your shortcommings and that Remorse will lead you to repent and submit to God's rule over you. The Christian sees moral decay in our society as a direct result of people not wanting to be ruled by revealed knowledge of what is right and wrong. Instead each person is encouraged to discover there own sense of right and wrong from within themselves. This is a faulty place to look for that sense and it explains for Chriistians why we have Columbine and the plethra of school shootings today. The fact that God's laws are being ignored.
Quote:
Jermiah 6 - 19 Hear, O earth! Behold I will certainly bring calamity on this people. THE FRUIT OF THEIR THOUGHTS. Because they have not heeded my words (The Bible) Nor My law, but rejected it.
All the verses fom the Bible which warn agains men looking into themselves for instruction I outlined in this article (for those interested.) http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_DIY_religions.pdf

  The Christians cannot rationally explain the ot at all it seems. Let's be honest, if you are going to follow any part of the bible- you must follow ALL of it. This is not a "interpretation" issue as the bible is clear on both issues.

to wit;

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

then to your laws..

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)  Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself.  None other then Jesus said so.

 and again...

 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

 So you people that think you can casually pick and choose are not only wrong, but appear really stupid when tryiing to apply YOUR interpretation to smooth over your lame position.

 Mudge

 

Mudge,

I agree I gave you my interpretation.  The bible says no scripture is of any private interpretation.  (1 Peter) and that the prophets are subject to the prophets.  In otherwords it says that I cannot preach something that is not subject to what was said before me.  Then it tells us to Seek Gods approval, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim 2:15).  So I seek Gods approaval when I interpret his words no one elses.  God is the one that approves or disapproves.  The result is that you will hear different voices from Chrsitians not a single one.  However occassionally what a Christian says who has submitted himself fully to Gods approval will sound to you as by one shepherd (Eccl 12:8-12). 

I am not subject to another mans interpretation.  But I am subject to Gods interpretation.  What I interpret is not supposed to be from me but from God.  The bible says if you gather all the proverbs and lay them in order it is possible to get a single interpretation delivered as by one shephered. (Eccl 12:8-12).  That is the job of the preacher. It is my job to convince you of the things.  It is your job to receive or reject what is said to you.  If you seek in the wod yourslef you too can be a preacher if you truly seek the truth and God's approval.  If you wish to preach to me that my interpretation is wrong then you have the same task before you of using all scripture putting it in order. 

God says "My ways are not your ways.  My thoughts are not your thoughts." in the old testament, yet in the new testament he sasy "have this mind which was also in Christ Jesus".  It is possible to think the way God does in other words.  Yet by default we will not find Gods thoughts.  If we see in Gods word honestly it becomes possible to know His mind on a matter.  Then our interpretations will reflect His thoughts.  We cannot say I will only read the thoughts I want to hear and ignor the rest.  We must compare all scriptures against each other in our quest to the Truth and ultimately find God.I

I  commend you so far that you have used a lot of scripture in your agrument.  This indicates that you are a true seeker of truth.  God will reward you for it.  If He is real He will reveal himself to you if you honestly seek Him.

That said I think your concern lies in the fact that many Christians deny the law.  I agree with you that they are in error when they do this. The law is the schoolmaster that proves to people their moral bankruptcy and the need for salvaition.  Without the law leading the way there will be no willingness to receive redemption.  Jesus came to fulfill the law.  He said think not that I came to destroy it.  Some Christians think that He came to destroy the law.  They are simply wrong and in error in interpreting the scriptures in a private way by not comparing all scriptures when formulating their doctrines. 

I hope you post again.  This was a good post for a first time in the forum.

Ray,

 

 

 

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"Has not God made foolish

"Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" Paul / Saul , a gifted writer, but still half a fool ..... murderer, woman basher, lier, .... re-writer of dogma, some say a key designer of xianity ....

  Answer: Well yes, if in your little superstitious ancient Jew world, the wise are considered to be the hypocrites at the church temples proclaiming dogma as wisdom .... as they now today, spew the Pauline dogma of Jesus idol worship ....

  I AM the CHRIST , and Jesus/Buddha will back me up. Paul and all his followers are my enemy to heal ..... and atheist Jesus wept tears of compassion ..... just as I do .... for they do not know what they do .....  


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I AM GOD, Your comment is

I AM GOD,

Your comment is very in keeping with the times in which we live. Eve was deceived by the offer to be like God.
The bible says that at the end of the age men will be as they were in the tie of Noah when every man did what was
right in his own eyes (his own god in otherwords.) Certainly in our age of no absolutes and relativism we are now
at a time of history when Pauls admonition to Timothy has come true when he said "Men will be lovers of themselves".

The Bible demands that we must put God first, others second, ourselves last. That doesn't fit well with the "I am Philosophy of today. In fact Freud who took evolution to the mind sciences said that we are no good to anyone else if we don't first love ourselves. Self Love, Self Agrandisement, Selfishness is esteemed in our society now and even preached in many churches. People are obsessed with learning to love themselves in the false belief that they will then as a result be good for others. Jesus said that if we want to be the greatest in His kingdom we must be the servant of all men. Then he demonstrated that He is the greatest by being obedient even to the point of death to pay the penalty demanded by God's holiness and righteousness for our selfishness and sinfulness.

"I am God" is the epitomy of the spirit of today which the bible calls the spirit of "Anti-Christ". The actual Anti-Chirst who is to come will claim just as you claim that He is God. But before he comes the bible predicts that there will be many Anti-Christs. Your decision to argue such in this forum therefore plays right into the hands of God in fulfillng his prediction that ones such as yourself will be prevalent at the point of history which is close to his comming to intervene in our plans. The bible says if he doesn't intervene not one human being will be left alive on this earth. No one could ever understand that prophecy but today we can well understand how easy it would be to wipe out the earths population. God will not allow that outcome. But unfortunately he will allow approximately 1/3 of all the earth to be wiped out prior to his intervention. 1/3 of the world will be consumed with fire. (Nuclear)

I don't want to switch the topic by saying more.

Just to challenge your claim to be God consider this following tract regarding how God demonstrates who he is in history by his dealings around his people the Nation of Israel.
http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_israel_sm.pdf

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
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Whitefox wrote:I AM GOD,

Whitefox wrote:
I AM GOD, Your comment is very in keeping with the times in which we live. Eve was deceived by the offer to be like God. The bible says that at the end of the age men will be as they were in the tie of Noah when every man did what was right in his own eyes (his own god in otherwords.) Certainly in our age of no absolutes and relativism we are now at a time of history when Pauls admonition to Timothy has come true when he said "Men will be lovers of themselves".

If people loved themselves more, there would be a great deal less misery in the world than there is. That is just a psychological fact.

Whitefox wrote:

The Bible demands that we must put God first, others second, ourselves last. That doesn't fit well with the "I am Philosophy of today.

The Bible, and the religious authorities who have promoted it down through the ages, were keen on this philosophy because it tended to be useful in maintaining the unfair authoritarian social structures that kept them at the top. Any peasent that protested at having half his harvest taken away in taxes could be denounced as sinfully prideful.

However, I do agree with you that things have come somewhat too far to the other side of the spectrum and that selfishness and lack of a sense of civic responsibility are big problems these days. The question is, is religion the only way, or even the best way, to promote these values?

My opinion is that it is possible to come to a personal acknowledgment of these values through enlightened self-interest and a morality based on an understanding of our shared humanity. Our natural self-interest is something that we are never going to be rid of, even within religion, as the history of religion shows. But it can be turned, though education and better mental health, to work for society rather than against it. IMO, this is a much better way to bring people to good behaviour than telling them stories about an imaginary God that is going to punish them if they are bad.

Whitefox wrote:

In fact Freud who took evolution to the mind sciences said that we are no good to anyone else if we don't first love ourselves. Self Love, Self Agrandisement, Selfishness is esteemed in our society now and even preached in many churches. People are obsessed with learning to love themselves in the false belief that they will then as a result be good for others.

You are twisting what Freud and modern psychology say about self-esteem. Feeling confident and good about yourself is always good and is, in fact, a necessary component of mental health. Self-aggrandizing and selfish behaviour are symptoms of LOW self-esteem and a desperate effort to attract attention and social acceptance by a person who lacks the inner strength to be comfortable with himself. No one in psychology promotes inappropriately selfish behaviour, in fact it is a major indicator of mental illness.

Loving, or at least liking, yourself is in fact a necessary component in order to be able to be good to anyone else. Giving of yourself selflessly requires a measure of discipline and willpower...just ask anyone who does it. People with low self-esteem are unable to summon the necessary mental strength to be so generous with their resources.

Whitefox wrote:

Jesus said that if we want to be the greatest in His kingdom we must be the servant of all men. Then he demonstrated that He is the greatest by being obedient even to the point of death to pay the penalty demanded by God's holiness and righteousness for our selfishness and sinfulness.

Do you think those actions were hard or easy for Jesus? Do you think he had to be strong and mentally healthy or desperate and low on himself in order to do what he did? One thing Jesus had (if he existed) was great self-esteem. He obviously felt very confident in what he believed and in his ability to do the things he felt needed to be done. Didn't he even say something about "To thine own self be true"?

Whitefox wrote:

"I am God" is the epitomy of the spirit of today which the bible calls the spirit of "Anti-Christ". The actual Anti-Chirst who is to come will claim just as you claim that He is God.

And here we come to the reason why religion is such a bad tool for modern society. Even if we agree with the philosophy and psychology of Christianity, we are asked to include in that belief the idea that an actual horned demon called the Anti-Christ is going to pop up out of Hell in a flash of fire and brimstone and start laying waste to the world. We might just as well fear the return of Sauron from Lord of the Rings. I want a theory of social and civic responsibility that does not incorporate such fantastic crap.

Whitefox wrote:

But before he comes the bible predicts that there will be many Anti-Christs. Your decision to argue such in this forum therefore plays right into the hands of God in fulfillng his prediction that ones such as yourself will be prevalent at the point of history which is close to his comming to intervene in our plans. The bible says if he doesn't intervene not one human being will be left alive on this earth.

Oooooo, I'm shaking in my boots. Help, Mommy, the Anti-Christ is coming to eat me! Most people have gotten past this stuff by the age of ten.

BTW, maybe you can let me know how acting good out of fear of the anti-Christ counts as selfless. I mean, if I actually believed that Rosemary's baby was coming to kill us all if I didn't get right with God, wouldn't my worship be a straightforward act of self-interest?

Whitefox wrote:

No one could ever understand that prophecy but today we can well understand how easy it would be to wipe out the earths population.

But you are claiming to understand the prophecy! You are telling us all about it! Here we see how religion acts to subjugate people to authority. You, poor peon, cannot understand the weighty portents contained in this book. But I do. So sign over all moral authority to me and in return I will tell you exactly what to do. And burn you at the stake if you don't do it.

Whitefox wrote:

God will not allow that outcome.

And now you give us ANOTHER pernicious consequence of religion: fatalism. You have observed, rightly, that we face real, physical threats to the existence of the human race. So what is the religious response? Get right with God! Go to church! Stop having abortions! Stop gay marriage! Do all this and God will save you!

But deep in your heart of hearts you know that all this bullshit is not going to save anyone from anything. No matter how closely people follow the Bible, it won't stop global warming. No matter how faithfully they go to church, it won't make nuclear weapons vanish or asteroids turn aside in their paths. Only action, real, human action and effort and political will has any chance of altering these things. Belief in God and his plan for the earth only has the effect of making it more likely that bad things will come to pass.

The sick thing is, the rational part of you knows that praying to God won't stop the bad things. But you dishonestly and cynically use faith to justify saying otherwise. This is why religion is a social and mental disease that should be eradicated.

Whitefox wrote:

But unfortunately he will allow approximately 1/3 of all the earth to be wiped out prior to his intervention. 1/3 of the world will be consumed with fire. (Nuclear) I don't want to switch the topic by saying more.

That's probably to the good, because you have embarrassed yourself quite enough already.

Whitefox wrote:

Just to challenge your claim to be God consider this following tract regarding how God demonstrates who he is in history by his dealings around his people the Nation of Israel. http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_israel_sm.pdf

If your delusional ramblings are in any way indicative of what I might find in that tract, I'd rather drink toilet water.

I want to thank you for posting perhaps the perfect illustration of why the Bible and Christianity is NOT the answer to the problems you are pointing to. You started out well, identifying some real issues and making a strong case that the Bible has some useful things to say about them. But then you showed us exactly why the Bible is an outdated, irrelevant document in the modern age. Secular society since the Enlightenment has done a fairly good job of taking the Bible as a starting point, retaining the good stuff and then adding a whole lot more knowledge and advanced philosophical and psychological thinking to come up with a paradigm that is a thousand times superior in terms of social effect. Taking us 2000 years backwards to straight Bible reference doesn't help anything.

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Whitefox my brother, you are

Whitefox my brother, you are an example of why Paul is my enemy to heal.

The likes of wise rrs Tilberian is spreading the "good word" of "ONENESS", the simple "saving" message .... from caring love of appreciation of existence ....

The "Jesus" invention of the bible is varied, but common sense demands that I follow the "gnostic" banned writings, and canon bible ideas, of an atheist "buddha" Jesus philosophy.  Jesus wrote nothing ....

If we are going to point to the anti christ it would be the "Paulines". The "Christ in Me" message, is one of no superstition, no separation, no idol worship, .... Total equality .... All is god ....  

"No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul set it on its legs."  Thomas Jefferson

YOU ARE GOD AS I , was Jesus message. I honor YOU as I . We are ONE, with the cosmos (father/mother).  SIMPLE ...

WISE, Quotations about Religion  http://www.quotegarden.com/religion.html

A book that should interest Xains etc.  "Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings" http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-Parallel-Marcus-Borg/dp/1569751218

Parallel Sayings of Buddha and Christ  http://www.heartlandsangha.org/parallel-sayings.html

Get Free from all Dogma ... I love you ... as me ...     


 


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Both these last two postings

Both these last two postings exhibit well thought out responses. It makes more sense to me now regarding the "I AM God" person that he is a Budhist which is an atheistic religion in that it believes God is in everything which effectively is the same as there not bein a God. His responses although I still say are the Anti-Christ type message of the end of the age (not earth). There are 1000 years to go after the end of the age of grace. I will have to put my thinking cap on to respond further to "I AM GOD" regarding comparing Budhism with Christianity and the proofs that Budhism is does not lead one to Truth. I will come back with that challenge. Regarding the moderator. I appreciate that you see that selfishness is a problem as I do. I spent over a decade in mission work dealing with street people. One of the obstacles to normal living once off the street is refocussing of of yourself. It is understandable how people can out of self preservation get into a state where they must defend themselves. But they can't move on until they can change their focus. I have seen a Christ centered focus as an effective way of helping people. I believe it is needed by everyone not just recovering addicts and persons who have lived through tough times. I can see how my faith in prophecy not yet fulfilled seems overzealous. Where do I get such zeal? It is because I have become so sold out on the Bible as self fulfilling and having already proved itself by its own fulfilled predictions. Read my tract http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_prophecy_proves_gods_word_sm.pdf for more on that. Please consider doing this even if it feels like drinking toilet water to you. I'd value your opinions of that tract in particular. Ray,

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Whitefox, thanks for caring.

Whitefox, thanks for caring. My "Jesus" is a friend, but dogma is not.

The link you posted won't open. That happens alot , so I always go back and test them and use the "edit button" to try and correct. Including a "title" to Google, is also helpful when the links won't work.  

   All is indeed "god", so why worship any idol ? Core Buddhism is not a religion, but an evolving philosophy of suggestions for diminishing the "unnecessary suffering" we do. Yes, some of the folklore is nutty , and that would be like most everything of the dogmatic Abrahamic religious ideas. ((( i.e.  Reincarnation = Recycling of all energy/matter. Nothing superstitious ..... geezz,  folklore can become a real menace ....

Buddha said  'Fix my words' .... which is alot different than the message of the Xains, Judaists and Islamists , ((( the god of Abe followers .... of mostly rigid dogma. 

 Alan Watts is a gifted communicator / teacher of eastern ideas , and even has videos on Youtube. I really wish everyone would spend a few enlightning days with him and his simple messages.

We are all in "AWE", and hopefully open to learning of our true selves. Let's work at being truly honest .... and stop all religious dogma. "I don't know" , is a honest answer ....


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Whitefox wrote:Both these

Whitefox wrote:
Both these last two postings exhibit well thought out responses. It makes more sense to me now regarding the "I AM God" person that he is a Budhist which is an atheistic religion in that it believes God is in everything which effectively is the same as there not bein a God. His responses although I still say are the Anti-Christ type message of the end of the age (not earth). There are 1000 years to go after the end of the age of grace. I will have to put my thinking cap on to respond further to "I AM GOD" regarding comparing Budhism with Christianity and the proofs that Budhism is does not lead one to Truth. I will come back with that challenge. Regarding the moderator. I appreciate that you see that selfishness is a problem as I do. I spent over a decade in mission work dealing with street people. One of the obstacles to normal living once off the street is refocussing of of yourself. It is understandable how people can out of self preservation get into a state where they must defend themselves. But they can't move on until they can change their focus. I have seen a Christ centered focus as an effective way of helping people. I believe it is needed by everyone not just recovering addicts and persons who have lived through tough times. I can see how my faith in prophecy not yet fulfilled seems overzealous. Where do I get such zeal? It is because I have become so sold out on the Bible as self fulfilling and having already proved itself by its own fulfilled predictions. Read my tract http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_prophecy_proves_the_word_sm.pdf for more on that. Please consider doing this even if it feels like drinking toilet water to you. I'd value your opinions of that tract in particular. Ray,

The link doesn't work, Whitefox. Can I ask you to do something instead? Please start a new thread in the Biblical Errancy forum and post your link there using the "insert/edit link" button on the toolbar. There, you might attract the attention of Rook, our local Bible expert, who will be able to give you far more informed feedback on your tract than I would.

I will agree that shifting the focus of desperate people away from their addictions and other problems is effective therapy, and introducing religion can be an effective way to do that. However it is not the only way and it suffers from the drawback of carrying a lot of string attached that I don't see as particularly positive or necessary for the task at hand. Why is it necessary to believe a fairy tale about a bearded man in the sky creating the world in seven days to take the message from Jesus' teachings? It isn't, and what these people need is the message, not the fairy tale.

I also think there is an ethical dilemma that theists face when they proselytize among people in these situations. They offer the help that these people so desperately need, yes. But they also attach strings to that help that could be considered self-serving. Selling a message to people at the limits of their willpower and self-esteem smacks of preying on their weakness to generate dues-paying churchgoers.

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The link was wrong. This is

The link was wrong. This is the fixed one http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_prophecy_proves_gods_word.pdf

It is nice to see this forum maturing to have persons who are well educated using high calibur reasoning in their responses. Perhaps that is a reflection on you personally as a moderator.

I have wrtten sixty tracts like the one i've put a link to as several years ago I found myself giving the same arguments over and over and it became wearying. But out of respect I restrict such things to very short responses which I can print and fold 2 tracts from a single sheet of paper. That is the limit I set myself so that I do not become guilty of spaming (I forget the word given it in forums) when I debate. The tract is repeated 2x in the pdf so that a single double sided print produces two of them. You start reading at the right on page two then return to page one.

I must credit Redginald for inviting me to the Infidel forumn and Rook for making me work to produce such answers in these short tracts. I have subsequently inherited over fifty more such tracts written to answer skeptics over the past 80 years and am on the board of a registered charity in Canada as of this week with its sole focus on producing such materials to aid those who have doubts about the Judeao / Christian God. This of course would exclude Muslims who worship an imposter God that is not a God of Love.

I have been working at times full time for months on end preparing answers for ones like Rook originally but I seldom spar directly with him. I have even started a book called the Atheist Anotated Bible Rebutted. Only Genesis so far.

I tell you all this becasue this is the amount of respect I have for these forumns that I am willing to devote much of my time to research in finding answers. There are other areas of debate particulary with Muslims that keep me from being regular here. I cannot handle too many threads here but will gladly stick around in one thread at a time.

Please look at the small tract. I will aproach Rook again soon.

I am also curious what field of study you got your PHD in.

If I start a thread for Theist vs Budhist will you moderate it? I would like to stick with "I am God" next. I appreciate that he wants to present what I call a fruit of the holy spirit which is LOVE the others are JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, MEEKNESS, KINDNESS, TEMPERANCE, GOODNESS and FAITH. The bible says no one should be able to argue against these as noble goals.

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Thanks Whitefox

 Thanks Whitefox


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and to ALL of YOU, I AM the

and to ALL of YOU, I AM the enemy to LOVE , to heal ! 


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Whitefox wrote:The link was

Whitefox wrote:
The link was wrong. This is the fixed one http://bibledoor.no-ip.org/pdf/eng_prophecy_proves_gods_word.pdf

Look like that link is still wrong. It doesn't work even when I cut and paste it into my browser. I was able to get to your site, though, using the link in your sig. Can you tell me what section of the site I would find the tract in?

Whitefox wrote:

It is nice to see this forum maturing to have persons who are well educated using high calibur reasoning in their responses. Perhaps that is a reflection on you personally as a moderator.

Thanks for the kind words but rest assured it has nothing to do with me.

Whitefox wrote:

I have wrtten sixty tracts like the one i've put a link to as several years ago I found myself giving the same arguments over and over and it became wearying. But out of respect I restrict such things to very short responses which I can print and fold 2 tracts from a single sheet of paper. That is the limit I set myself so that I do not become guilty of spaming (I forget the word given it in forums) when I debate. The tract is repeated 2x in the pdf so that a single double sided print produces two of them. You start reading at the right on page two then return to page one. I must credit Redginald for inviting me to the Infidel forumn and Rook for making me work to produce such answers in these short tracts. I have subsequently inherited over fifty more such tracts written to answer skeptics over the past 80 years and am on the board of a registered charity in Canada as of this week with its sole focus on producing such materials to aid those who have doubts about the Judeao / Christian God.

Let's get the right link on here so I can see what you have.

Whitefox wrote:

This of course would exclude Muslims who worship an imposter God that is not a God of Love.

That's close to a billion people that you have going straight to hell. How do you counter their claims that you are the one worshiping an imposter?

Whitefox wrote:

I have been working at times full time for months on end preparing answers for ones like Rook originally but I seldom spar directly with him. I have even started a book called the Atheist Anotated Bible Rebutted. Only Genesis so far. I tell you all this becasue this is the amount of respect I have for these forumns that I am willing to devote much of my time to research in finding answers.

Well, Rook is your guy if you want informed Biblical argument. All I'm going to do is point out the obvious.

Whitefox wrote:

There are other areas of debate particulary with Muslims that keep me from being regular here.

I don't doubt that, given your earlier statement.

Whitefox wrote:

I cannot handle too many threads here but will gladly stick around in one thread at a time. Please look at the small tract. I will aproach Rook again soon. I am also curious what field of study you got your PHD in.

Flattery will get you everywhere. I have a lowly bachelor of journalism only.

Whitefox wrote:

If I start a thread for Theist vs Budhist will you moderate it?

We moderators don't really moderate specific areas of the forums, we just kind of cruise around as we wish, fighting irrationality as we go. If you start the thread and post the link back here I'll be glad to look in on it.

If your concern is to avoid, shall we say, the more spirited attacks on this board, you should start the thread in Kill 'Em With Kindness. Otherwise, just put it in Atheist vs Theists, since some Buddhists are not really theists anyway and there really isn't anywhere else more appropriate for it to go.

 

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