Question for our Christian visitors

Randalllord
Rational VIP!
Randalllord's picture
Posts: 690
Joined: 2006-04-12
User is offlineOffline
Question for our Christian visitors

Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


Jeremiah
Theist
Posts: 29
Joined: 2012-06-14
User is offlineOffline
Answering Randals Question

 

I answered your question, Randal, but I am not quite sure if it has appeared.  I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.  I am a new member here by the way.  Not a guest.  Thanks.  - Jeremiah


palebluedot (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Fulfilling a law?

Wow - thats some vague a twisted logic there.

It seems intellecutally dishonest to me (or maybe just careless) to say that "Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it"

Just how do you "fulfill a law"?   You can comply with a law or abide by it or reinforce or ratify it.  Indeed you can break it or reject it.

But how on earth do you fulfill it?    You can fulfill a prophesy and I know this is a big thing with Christians but is off topic.

Please explain what you mean by fulfilling a law - it is a meaningless phrase.


Old Seer
Theist
Posts: 704
Joined: 2011-11-12
User is offlineOffline
ten commandments do not apply

buddyd wrote:

Randalllord wrote:
Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testament and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove displays of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

 

There are a few reasons why many Christians fight for the 10 commandments. Some see it as a patriotic battle they say that the nation was founded on Judaeo-Christian values. Some see it as a fight on religion and they say that have to fight back at some point or it will keep creeping closer and closer to keeping God out of the church. Most Christians do not have an understanding of Jesus fulfilling the Law and therefore see themselves as under the 10 Commandments. The most common mistake you see is the average Christian thinking that the Sabbath is on Sunday (it is on Saturday). There is a big fight in the town I live over the 10 Commandments on the court house steps. As a pastor I am not harping on the subject in the church, but many of my members think it is a huge deal. The ACLU is suing over the matter and I do agree that we have to fight back at some point, because I do believe that the ACLU wants God out completely. In the end most Christians see it as the intentions of those trying to remove the 10 Commandments are trying to disrespect God.

in proper Christianity. The ten are civil law and true Christians aren't in need of civil law. IE- In Christianity there is no civil or religious marriage ceremonies. Civil law is a "caging" of the animal drives in it's sociology by application of police forces (external). Christianity is the giving up of animal behavior and sociology. JC said- What God (natural personal forces) has joined let no man put assunder. What we have here is- the two are joined by natural forces under Christianity not civil or religious authorities or permissions. He said--they are as Angles, that is- as in and of the spiritual forces (angels is a misinterpretation). They are attracted to one another and joined by their own inter-forces of the internal not of the external, civil forces being the external. There is no authority over one another in true Christianity. Authority above others is given up and no longer pursued. The ten are what we refer to as "forensic or material/physical/superficial law. Christians follow the inner, or, spiritual law. There-fore as he points out-they are neither married or given in marriage, that is, they are together under their own permissions.

The only possible thing the world could need saving from are those running it.


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Old Seer wrote:
JC said- What God (natural personal forces) has joined let no man put assunder. What we have here is- the two are joined by natural forces under Christianity not civil or religious authorities or permissions.
 

Then one needs go further and point out polygamy was common in bibleland at the time and JC is reported to have said nothing excluding polygamy. If he has the stature you insist upon it was not an imporant enough point to raise.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Stevens
Posts: 3
Joined: 2008-04-22
User is offlineOffline
Randalllord wrote:Most

Randalllord wrote:
Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?

 

 

Only Some of the laws of the old testaments are no longer valid under the "new alliance" between God and Man. Not all of them. Marrying your deceased brother's widow is no longer compulsory, for example. Nor is taking revenge on someone who wronged you.


Anonymous
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
  ok....  ive read thru

  ok....  ive read thru this forum, and i have to first say, the trolling, and negativity of people towards other people is ridiculous.

the short answer, is that unfortunately IMO most "christians" are blind.  they see this as a country founded on God, and blah blah blah.  its been talked about in this thread.  too much.  so when they see something that was IN THE BIBLE and other uneducated people are trying to take it out, they freak, slander eachother, and it turns into this big stupid internet debate, and people lose focus on the real thing  religion can be used as a tool, even atheism.  bc youre all getting distracted anyway.  

the ten commandments are good values to have.  the first five are probably the most debated, for obvious reasons.  but 6-10 dont need to be taken out of any schools, IMO.  they are commandments that apply TO ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, REGARDLESS OF CREED.  dont kill - should i spell this one out?  dont commit adultery - dont deliberately go behind someones back for your own gratifications  it hurts to be cheated on.  dont steal - its not yours,  you can work for whatever you want.  and by stealing something from someone and getting that reputation, youre only hurting yourself long term for a temporary gain.  dont bear false witness about your neighbor - dont try to lie about your neighbor to make him look bad in the public light.  i think if one does this, they are not happy with themselves and their lives, and that it should be addressed.  do not covet thy neighbors house, wife, servants, flock, etc. - so dont be jealous of other peoples possessions, jealousy causes resentment, and distracts us from the real reason we are here, to find ourselves and our purpose, to be enlightened.

the first five, however...

i think are rules to govern our minds, and our thoughts.  its hard to break these down in numerical order, so i will summarize on the first five.  replace the idea commonly conveyed in the bible as god being a person or a deity.  instead, think of god as the enlightenment, the knowledge.  dont put anything else before it.  dont try to make it into an image, or some idol that you worship.  keep it holy and in the forefront of your mind.  make it your top priority. and dont take it in vain, as in you get angry with life, and curse everything in it.  because you will let yourself down for not staying true to yourself.  dont bow down to any idol that someone else has made, claiming it to be "god".  because those people are screwing up already, dont join them   and show mercy and love to those who keep and UNDERSTAND the commandments, and their importance in human life and for our development.  remember to dedicate time to enriching your path to enlightenment, and being one with god, becoming a better human being.  and honor your parents, the first teachers that any of us had, and honor your elders along with that.  they are the people who will help you most along your way towards enlightenment.

 

i hope this helps, im sure some will disagree and think im stupid, but think of it from a True Gnostic point of view.  if youre just searching for the truth, the ten commandments are great guidestones.  and i also think, why SHOULD they be taken out of courthouses?  or schools?  i think some people just misinterpret EVERYTHING nowadays, they see that something says "God" in a public place, and they get so scared and come up with all these crazy slandering debates because maybe they just dont understand, or even want to try to see it from all points of view and try to make it all complicated.  

 

enjoy!  and may you bless yourself!


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Short answer, is that the

Short answer, is that the Ten Commandments are neither required nor appropriate for the public place of a public government service in a secular nation. They are based upon a specific sect of a specific religion's morals, and have all sorts of unwanted baggage tagged along with them.

We do not need a archaic and biased set of laws to show us how to behave. We have our society's morality that evolves over time. We should make effort to back up that morality with as much evidence and hard facts as possible, not superstition. If something is shown to be incorrect, it should be changed. Just because their is some overlap with the ten commandments and things we consider the common person's morality, does not mean that we should tolerate blatant bias towards a certain religion, or any flaunting of any religion in a public place with has the intended purpose of fair secular justice.

Besides, your interpretation of thesome of those ten commandments is sketchy, and twisting it, imo.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4159
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Anonymous wrote: the ten

Anonymous wrote:

 the ten commandments are good values to have.  the first five are probably the most debated, for obvious reasons.  but 6-10 dont need to be taken out of any schools, IMO.  they are commandments that apply TO ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, REGARDLESS OF CREED.  dont kill - should i spell this one out?  dont commit adultery - dont deliberately go behind someones back for your own gratifications  it hurts to be cheated on.  dont steal - its not yours,  you can work for whatever you want.  and by stealing something from someone and getting that reputation, youre only hurting yourself long term for a temporary gain.  dont bear false witness about your neighbor - dont try to lie about your neighbor to make him look bad in the public light.  i think if one does this, they are not happy with themselves and their lives, and that it should be addressed.  do not covet thy neighbors house, wife, servants, flock, etc. - so dont be jealous of other peoples possessions, jealousy causes resentment, and distracts us from the real reason we are here, to find ourselves and our purpose, to be enlightened.

So perhaps we ought to simply cut the 10 commandments in half when we post them in schools? I imagine the xtians would really flip over that, it would actually be rather amusing. I don't actually worry about the commandments being posted, I do not think it is important enough to waste my time with and you will never see me going out of my way to try to get them taken down anywhere. But strictly speaking our government is not supposed to endorse a particular religion and using public money to post a religious text on public property is at the very least a soft endorsement of a particular religion. Whether that religion has a good influence, has some good ideas or (1/2) of the text posted are things that most people of any religion would agree are a good way to live your life is irrelevant. 

 

Anonymous wrote:

the first five, however...

i think are rules to govern our minds, and our thoughts.

And you think government should be playing a role in governing our minds and thoughts?

 

Anonymous wrote:

 replace the idea commonly conveyed in the bible as god being a person or a deity.  instead, think of god as the enlightenment, the knowledge.  dont put anything else before it.  

But the ten commandments are not about any god. They specifically refer to a particular god and worshiping knowledge as if it were god is in direct contradiction to the ten commandments. So you post the ten commandments and then tell us to completely ignore the context? And to ignore the commandments? Then what is the point of posting them? You cannot separate the ten commandments from the Abrahamic god.

Here is a radical idea, why not post a copy of Article 3 of the Constitution from which the authority of the courts are derived? Or perhaps the Bill of Rights? Or perhaps relevant portions of the state constitution? Seems a little more relevant to a courthouse than the ten commandments. Fortunately, adultry, lying, coveting, worshiping idols, being disrespectful to your parents or taking any god's name in vain is not illegal. 

 

 

 


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1704
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
 @anonymous & Brian37.I

 @anonymous & Brian37.

I have two daughters and they naturally knew not to kill me or their mom. They sensed early it was not good to steal. They learned to be open and honest because we were. I think these commandments are pretty trivial and a decent upbringing doesn't require reading them in school. Christians have a solution for problems that don't exist. If a kid has an abusive upbringing reading the 10 commandments ain't gonna fix them. 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


amp1022 (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Religion Kills !!!First,

Religion Kills !!!

First, when has a religion ever killed someone? Religion is a set of customs and rituals, I am sure it could be used as an excuse for a human to kill, kinda like greed, hate, jealousy, anger, or stupidity, but those things do not kill either, they are just excuses.


I have two daughters and they naturally knew not to kill me or their mom. They sensed early it was not good to steal. They learned to be open and honest because we were. I think these commandments are pretty trivial and a decent upbringing doesn't require reading them in school. Christians have a solution for problems that don't exist. If a kid has an abusive upbringing reading the 10 commandments ain't gonna fix them.

Second, if there is no God or higher authority then why do your daughters or their instincts matter? They are just highly evolved pieces of meat. They are instinctually kind, good for them, some people are instinctually mean and cruel, so what? They are just matter that can think, its all simply basic instincts, nothing is right or wrong because there is no one to govern morals. Why is killing a person evil but plucking a leaf off a tree perfectly acceptable? They are both matter, they both evolved, what causes one to be more important than the other? Why are your daughters more important than a rock? According to your beliefs, neither will exist in any way a million years from now. Why is it right to follow urges that give people joy, but wrong to follow those that bring pain? Both are just causing chemical and biological reactions in a assemblage of meat and bone that tells it to react either negatively or positively. So what? According to your belief system, you and all your loves ones are worth no more than any other kind of matter, and there is no moral or immoral behavior, just behavior set A and behavior set B, either one will have no effect on the great scheme of things because there is no great scheme, just hunks of meat that exist, then stop existing.

So why not do absolutely anything that gives you pleasure? Rape women that you find attractive, in a few decades they will stop existing and it won't matter anyways. Murder those who bother you, its not really murder anyways (taking an innocent life) because there is no guilt or innocence, just actions that cease to exist in any way as soon as they are complete. The past does not matter because who will remember it once everyone is gone? And who cares if they do remember, memory is just a function of grey matter in your head, completely meaningless, like myself, you, and your daughters.

Or God does exist, and he decides what is right and wrong, then holds people accountable for their actions, then saves them when they are helpless to save themselves from their own evil.

PS, Christianity works even at the last split second of your life if you call out to Jesus as your savior, so NO customs or rituals are required, how is that a religion?


Professor
Theist
Posts: 21
Joined: 2012-10-31
User is offlineOffline
Why Object to Taking Down the Ten Commandments

 

 

 

 

 

(I do not understand your software.) Paul said that Christians are not under law but under grace, but Paul also wrote that the law is "a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ." The law points out that we are sinners; we cannot keep God's law. God only reveals Himself to those who are contrite in heart and sorry for their sins. Plus God's law is good. It is His Word and His revealed will for us. It manifests His nature. We are supposed to love God and meditate on His Word, His Law. Hence it should be posted in public places.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Professor wrote:     (I

Professor wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

(I do not understand your software.) Paul said that Christians are not under law but under grace, but Paul also wrote that the law is "a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ." The law points out that we are sinners; we cannot keep God's law. God only reveals Himself to those who are contrite in heart and sorry for their sins. Plus God's law is good. It is His Word and His revealed will for us. It manifests His nature. We are supposed to love God and meditate on His Word, His Law. Hence it should be posted in public places.

If God's law is so good why did Paul remove Christians from it?

Please note that "God's word" and "God's law" are not the same thing. For example, you accept Paul's teachings as God's word  (even when they blatantly contradict the teachings of your God).

Also note, that Paul says nothing about not sinning anymore after forgiveness. Once you are contrite, feel sorry for your sins and get forgiveness - it's business as usual.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


jass
atheist
Posts: 1
Joined: 2012-12-12
User is offlineOffline
History

So my first post. As a former Christian who has not even come out to his wife and family yet,  I think the argument for the ten commandments in public is for a few reasons:

First, they are a reminder of the founding fathers basis for law. (No I don't think the founding fathers were all Christians but likely most were at least deists)

Second, Christians want it there to give them legitimacy.

Third, when the non religious touch anything religious there will be outrage.  The first reaction is, "blasphemy"

These reasons have nothing to do with why they believe and I don't mind reason number one at all so long as everyone (who can think) realizes this is not the law, but that our nation is a nation of laws.  The law no longer comes from a god it comes from a government.  You could think of the ten commandments in public places as a reminder that people make the laws now.  Reason number two is the only possible reason to take it down, but they only think it works that way, you know it doesn't.  Reason three is the reason for anger.

You might even think of it like a military monument or the 9/11 monument.  Not something we want to strive for but something to remember and be cautious about.

 

 

 

 

 

MM


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
 jass wrote:You might even

 

jass wrote:

You might even think of it like a military monument or the 9/11 monument.  Not something we want to strive for but something to remember and be cautious about.

Ozymandian - I like that.

 

Welcome to the boards.


Whitefox
Theist
Whitefox's picture
Posts: 78
Joined: 2006-12-12
User is offlineOffline
Within Christianity there

Within Christianity there are skeptics. Some of them fall out eventually such as Darwin who left the church after taking some clerical training to become a pastor originally. Or the same can be said of Lenon. Eventually these folks totally denied their faith and abandoned it to pursue Atheism.

The Christians that make the claims that the law no longer has any hold over them are called "ANTINOMIALISTS" the word in Greek for "LAW" is "NOMOS". ANTINOMOS is to be against the law. This is a heresy that has surfaced over and over again within Christianity.

The Bible teaches that the Law is our school master which leads us to faith in Christ. It teaches that the LAW and adherence to the LAW is not enough to cause a person to enter into eternal life but it instructs them of their need to enter into eternal life. The Bible teaches that no matter how much you try to be a good person (Obey Gods laws) that you will fail. That is why there is a need to have the righteousness of the one man that was able to fulfill the law, the LORD (Jehovah) Jesus Christ impute to us His righteousness and to take away from us our unrighteousness. Its an exchange of his goodness for our badness. In Gods eyes he sees us as righteous if we have been "covered by the blood of Jesus". Allowed Him to wash away our sins by his shed blood. 

If a person allows this what is next? He has had a hefty price paid for his "eternal life". He becomes a Bondservant (or slave) of the Lord Jesus Christ to do whatever he tells them to do. Jesus is perfect. He only tells them to do perfect things. This is the same thing as obeying the LAW because Jesus directs their paths to do perfect things. There was a prediction in the Old Testament that God would do a new thing. He would write His laws on mens hearts. They would be given hearts of flesh and no longer of stone. (Implication the Atheist has a heart of stone). They would follow the laws willingly without needing the outward coersion of enforcement which was required in the Jewish laws. Yet they would still be following laws NOMIALISTS rather than ANTINOMIALISTS.

The next time a so called Christian gives you his silly opinion that sounds like ANTINOMIALISM I recommend that you instruct him according to the things I have shared in this post. I believe a Christian may have entered into eternal life, (By committing his life to Christ) but for some reason he doesn't know that he is a bond slave. Perhaps you should tell him. The reason a Christian (A true Christian that is) is a Bond Slave is that such he has willingly exchanged his freedom to become a slave of Christ in exchange for the shed blood of Christ. When he is finished paying back his debt to Christ which will never be possible he is released from his obligation and is no longer a slave. The problem is the price of sin is so great and the price paid to irradicate it is so great that the bond slave is a slave forever by choice. The word Bond means the slave is a willing slave not forced into it by coersion. He is willing for a period of time (the bond) for a specified benefit to be enslaved. The best way to describe it is to become a BONDSERVANT.

The version of the KJV bible called the SKJV which I have been working on converts many refrences to "SERVANT" to "BONDSERVANT" for this reason. The American Standard bible uses the word "SLAVE". The KJV uses "SERVANT". I and the editors I am working with believe that "BONDSERVANT" is the correct understanding of what a Christian ought to be. A sample of this version of the Bible is available under freebies at the www.bibledoor.com website and on the left column of the www.truthiswhatmatters.com website.

Jesus said in order to be the greatest in heaven one must be the "Bondservant" of all.  Jesus Himself is that greatest one as He demonstrated His willingness to serve all. He is willing to serve you and me, if we will let Him.

There are skeptics in every walk of life. Hopefully I can encourage some avowed atheists to be skeptical of atheism here at this forum so that you can enter into a true religion which will lead you to eternal life, rather than eternal regret. I invite your comments at my website to articles that we raise. www.truthiswhatmatters.com

 

 

God says "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet you shall be white as snow."
www.truthiswhatmatters.com & www.bibledoor.com


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
 Ah! Welcome back Ray!

 Ah! Welcome back Ray!  

 

I'm sure by now you've had a chance to think about an answer to my question in post 74 of this thread:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32460?page=1

 

I'm expecting a single piece of evidence that dinosaurs were alive 5000 years ago, and a justification for the outdated quote you put here:

 

http://truthiswhatmatters.com/2012/06/20/three-reasons-for-rejecting-evolution/

 

I look forward to your responses on this - crank up that old thread again if you like.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 


pmatt
Theist
Posts: 7
Joined: 2011-06-23
User is offlineOffline
Because just like any other

Because just like any other group or person who wants to maintain ther values and traditions in the public square fight for their right to do so. Questions like this does not further the cause of Athieism rather rings of small thinking. 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10137
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Ridiculous.

Ridiculous.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.