I found out what faith is!

spentley
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I found out what faith is!

Get this guys.

I found out from a christian last night what faith was.

Turns out faith is being too lazy to find out forsure what people tell you. - simplified by myself.

This guy basically told me... that his faith in Jesus, is comapired to walking in a building and having faith that the floor won't cave in.

He said, he had faith that the floor would hold up.. even though he wasn't sure there were proper footings/columns/support.

He said it was impossible... like knowing jesus' existance... to actually find out if the proper structure is securing the building.

I told him that you can take a back hoe.. and look for yourself whats under the building... or possibly get record blueprints showing how the building was constructed.

I also told him that there is information availiable revealing corrupt religions.

God is the omnimax creator by definition of major religions. If there is evidence that the religion is incorrect about the nature of reality, then there is evidence that the God the religion defines does not exist.


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There's also the fact that

There's also the fact that building codes exist, and it would be very difficult to build a building in violation of them without getting caught. And in general, buildings don't cave in without help.

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Randalllord
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Spentely,He got it wrong.

Spentley,
He got it wrong. Faith is accepting that for which there is no evidence or refusing to look at the avalable evidence to the contrary. Building codes and inspections generally protect the public from poor workmanship or improper upkeep. Does he have to keep his faith in floors to keep them from caving in?
He is confusing trust and faith.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


sharky
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In the same metaphor

In the same metaphor couldn't atheism be described as refusing to look at the Maker's plans for the building, even though he designed it and understands the structure, and being convinced that you will be able to work it out on your own, without consulting his manual?

Just a thought.


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Except in real life we know

Except in real life we know a building was actually built by a builder. This does not apply to the universe.

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sharky
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Maybe you just haven't found

Maybe you just haven't found the plans yet...


Noor
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Maybe the bad design of the

Maybe the bad design of the building supports that the plan is imaginary..


sharky
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I'd hardly call the universe

I'd hardly call the universe badly designed - the sheer scale and the attention to detail is immense. No wonder the plans couldn't be fully understood


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spentley wrote: This guy

spentley wrote:

This guy basically told me... that his faith in Jesus, is comapired to walking in a building and having faith that the floor won't cave in.

This analogy doesn't go far enough because we all know that floors exist and that they usually hold people up.

Faith means walking into a building that is clearly condemned and about to fall down because someone told you (or you read in an old book) that invisible fairies were holding it up.

It also means that if the building collapses on you anyway, you don't revise your mental processes to adopt a more effective method of judgement. You just blame yourself for not believing strongly enough and look for another building to walk into.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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sharky wrote:In the same

sharky wrote:
In the same metaphor couldn't atheism be described as refusing to look at the Maker's plans for the building, even though he designed it and understands the structure, and being convinced that you will be able to work it out on your own, without consulting his manual?

Just a thought.

Really? Wow! I didn't know the Maker's plans were out there. Can you link to them for me, please?

Oh, just a few caveats. I'd like reliable sources, please, so 6,000 year-old, much revised, poorly translated works of fiction need not apply.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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If a car comes rushing at me

If a car comes rushing at me in full speed it is not by faith I conclude that I should get away before it reaches me or else I will get hurt. Alot of things keep trying to kill me, or are very hostile to my life in many conditions; therefore the universe is fine tuned to kill me.

God had no time to create time.


sharky
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Tilberian wrote: Really?

Tilberian wrote:

Really? Wow! I didn't know the Maker's plans were out there. Can you link to them for me, please?

Oh, just a few caveats. I'd like reliable sources, please, so 6,000 year-old, much revised, poorly translated works of fiction need not apply.

Sure there you go:
http://www.biblegateway.com/ - that meets all the criteria apart from some early bits dating back to more then 6000 years.

if you're worried about the translation:
http://www.greekbible.com/

If you don't speak Greek, pick up a bible, turn to the first few pages, and have a look at the preface which describes the full translation process. It's a pretty thorough process.

and if you have a phobia of books that are 6,000 years old, try the new testament.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew;&version=51;

and if you're more of a scientist, this might appeal to you more:
http://www.godandscience.org/

home you find the plans.


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sharky wrote:[ Sure there

sharky wrote:
[
Sure there you go:
http://www.biblegateway.com/ - that meets all the criteria apart from some early bits dating back to more then 6000 years.

if you're worried about the translation:
http://www.greekbible.com/

If you don't speak Greek, pick up a bible, turn to the first few pages, and have a look at the preface which describes the full translation process. It's a pretty thorough process.

and if you have a phobia of books that are 6,000 years old, try the new testament.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew;&version=51;

and if you're more of a scientist, this might appeal to you more:
http://www.godandscience.org/

home you find the plans.

Darn, you got me, Sharky. Sorry I have to move the goal poasts on you, but 2,000 year-old, much revised, poorly translated works of fiction need not apply either.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the bible is worthless as a source of information about cosmological events like the formation of the universe.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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What gets me is that with

What gets me is that with all the revisons and translations of the Bible they still can't resolve any of the contradictions in the text.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


sharky
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Tilberian, There is a lot of

Tilberian, There is a lot of evidence in favor of the authenticity of the bible - check out http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.html if you want to find out.

The Bible does describe the creation of the universe, the earth, and life on it. The Bible also describes the laws that govern the universe and its ultimate fate. This site gives an interesting interpretation.

Quote:
1. Creation of the entire physical universe (matter,1 energy,2 space3 and time4) from the invisible (16 x 109 years ago).5 This creation event includes an expanding universe,6 which continues to expand at this time.6

2. Preparation of planet earth for the creation of life. The Bible describes the Earth's initial conditions following its creation when the Sun is already shining. The Bible also says that the Earth is controlled by the heavens and not the other way around (geocentrism is refuted).7 The original Earth is described as being without any oceans or water at all (4.5 x 109 years ago).8 Science tells us that the Earth's water probably came from cometary collisions that were common during the early history of the Solar System.9 The main biblical creation account (Genesis 1) begins after the formation of the Earth's oceans with a description of the Earth as a water-covered planet covered by dense clouds (4.0 x 109 years ago).10

3. The dense atmosphere is partially cleared so that light can strike the surface of the earth. (3.9 x 109 years ago).

4. Formation of a stable water cycle (3.9 x 109 years ago).11

5. Formation of continents, including an accurate description of the tectonic activity that produced the continents (2.7 x 109 years ago)12

6. Creation of plants on the land and their subsequent "production by the land," possibly including some naturalistic processes (0.9 x 109 years ago).13

7. Transformation of the atmosphere from translucent transparent as the Sun, Moon, and stars show through the atmosphere. (0.9-0.6 x 109 years ago)

8. Creation of swarms of small sea animals and their subsequent "great increase" or "teeming by the water" (consistent with the Cambrian explosion) possibly involving some naturalistic processes. (0.5-0.3 x 109 years ago)14

9. Creation of birds (140-60 x 106 years ago)15

10. Creation of sea mammals (60-50 x 106 years ago)16

11. Creation of land mammals that interact with humans (30-15 x 106 years ago)17
1. creeping land mammals (e.g., rodents)
2. large quadraped land mammals (e.g., cattle)
3. wild land mammals (e.g., carnivores)

12. Creation of modern humans (100-50 x 103 years ago)18


If you want to look at the footnotes, the link to the page is here, http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/model.html.

jcgadfly, have a look at http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm. Many contradictions aren't actually issues once you examine them carefully.


Tilberian
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sharky wrote:Tilberian,

sharky wrote:
Tilberian, There is a lot of evidence in favor of the authenticity of the bible - check out http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.html if you want to find out.

A quick scan of the site reveals only excuses and interpretations of the bible so liberal that they completely leave the message of the original text. Sorry, but I can't be bothered to wade through this tripe.

sharky wrote:

The Bible does describe the creation of the universe, the earth, and life on it. The Bible also describes the laws that govern the universe and its ultimate fate. This site gives an interesting interpretation.

The bible gets all of these things completely wrong. The attempt to rewrite Genesis that you posted below is interesting - as an act of original creative writing. The bible certainly doesn't say any of these things.

sharky wrote:

Quote:
1. Creation of the entire physical universe (matter,1 energy,2 space3 and time4) from the invisible (16 x 109 years ago).5 This creation event includes an expanding universe,6 which continues to expand at this time.6

2. Preparation of planet earth for the creation of life. The Bible describes the Earth's initial conditions following its creation when the Sun is already shining. The Bible also says that the Earth is controlled by the heavens and not the other way around (geocentrism is refuted).7 The original Earth is described as being without any oceans or water at all (4.5 x 109 years ago).8 Science tells us that the Earth's water probably came from cometary collisions that were common during the early history of the Solar System.9 The main biblical creation account (Genesis 1) begins after the formation of the Earth's oceans with a description of the Earth as a water-covered planet covered by dense clouds (4.0 x 109 years ago).10

3. The dense atmosphere is partially cleared so that light can strike the surface of the earth. (3.9 x 109 years ago).

4. Formation of a stable water cycle (3.9 x 109 years ago).11

5. Formation of continents, including an accurate description of the tectonic activity that produced the continents (2.7 x 109 years ago)12

6. Creation of plants on the land and their subsequent "production by the land," possibly including some naturalistic processes (0.9 x 109 years ago).13

7. Transformation of the atmosphere from translucent transparent as the Sun, Moon, and stars show through the atmosphere. (0.9-0.6 x 109 years ago)

8. Creation of swarms of small sea animals and their subsequent "great increase" or "teeming by the water" (consistent with the Cambrian explosion) possibly involving some naturalistic processes. (0.5-0.3 x 109 years ago)14

9. Creation of birds (140-60 x 106 years ago)15

10. Creation of sea mammals (60-50 x 106 years ago)16

11. Creation of land mammals that interact with humans (30-15 x 106 years ago)17
1. creeping land mammals (e.g., rodents)
2. large quadraped land mammals (e.g., cattle)
3. wild land mammals (e.g., carnivores)

12. Creation of modern humans (100-50 x 103 years ago)18


If you want to look at the footnotes, the link to the page is here, http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/model.html.

I would be interested to look at the footnotes and compare what was written above to the actual bible quotes they use for support, however that part of the site is down. I'll check again later.

From my own memory of Genesis, I can say that the above is nothing but an attempt to shoehorn Genesis into some of the known scientific facts. The fact of the matter is that Genesis and science tell totally different stories about the creation of the world. This much is evident when you look at what people thought about the creation of the world prior to the scientific model. They had it all wrong, and poring over Genesis did nothing to educate them.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


Noor
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sharky wrote:

sharky wrote:
I'd hardly call the universe badly designed

Actually it is. A few examples:

What god would knock over the Earth on its axis?

Why have some people freezing to death near the poles while people die of heat at the equator?

Asteroids floating aimlessly in the cosmos, new stars being born and old ones dying everyday, meteors colliding into planets, stars stealing matter and energy from each other, comets whizzing around stars at thousands of mph, space-time contracting at ultra-fast speeds - what for??

Quote:
- the sheer scale and the attention to detail is immense. No wonder the plans couldn't be fully understoo

The universe is mouth-droppingly huge and "detailed" because it has been expanding for about 13.7 billion years. Do you realize how long that is?? That's 13, 700, 000, 000 years!

As for the plans, maybe there is no plan at all. Maybe the purpose of life is simply what we make for ourselves.


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Oh their god, people... 

Oh their god, people...  Faith is simple, just like the people that carry it around with them like a cellular bag phone from 1988. 

 

People don't like to think.

 

  It makes us sad to think, doesn't it?  Walking around in faith that everything is going to be OK because you knelt down and talked to your mattress last night - is much easier than knowing that when you close your eyes for the last time, you aren't getting a castle in the sky.

Every step I took in faith betrayed me

-Sarah McLachlan