Ten Commandmants

crimson90
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Ten Commandmants

I found this comparison of the ten commandmants. I knew of the difference between branches of Christianity, but not of the differences between books of the Bible. Here's the link.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

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dmar198
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The Catholic Church allows

The Catholic Church allows the use of any of them, because they are all just quoting Scripture.

We use the one we do because we feel know that God doesn't care if we make graven images, as long as we don't worship them (Ex. 25:18-19). That is why we combined them into the first command "thou shalt not have any other gods before me", because that's what you are doing when you make an idol.

 There are actually 14 imperitive commands in the "10 Commandments" section. One must shorten them one way or the other to have the normal 10.

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Answer the one from Exodus

Answer the one from Exodus 34!


Rigor_OMortis
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dmar198 wrote: We use the

dmar198 wrote:

We use the one we do because we feel know that God doesn't care if we make graven images, as long as we don't worship them (Ex. 25:18-19). That is why we combined them into the first command "thou shalt not have any other gods before me", because that's what you are doing when you make an idol.

Actually, I think the command is: "You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4)

And if I might push in, that sounds to me like "don't make graven images, let alone worship them".

Would you care to tell me how you not worship your icons and crosses, because it's beyond me. You might say that you do not worship the objects themselves, but what they represent, but that's moot defense, since all worshippers of something say the same thing. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to worship a statue of Baal, for instance, and not what it represents.

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dmar198
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Quote:

Quote:

Actually, I think the command is: "You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4)

And if I might push in, that sounds to me like "don't make graven images, let alone worship them".

Actually, the commandment (paraphrased, taking Ex. 20:4 AND THE NEXT VERSE, which modifies it, into consideration) is: "Don't make statues in order to worship them."

A lot of people misinterpreted this as "Don't make statues, let alone worship them", which is why a lot of people have problems with the Church today. But what is wrong with making statues? And, if it isn't wrong, why would God give us such a bogus commandment? He never has before! Plus, in Ex. 25:18-19, he actually SANCTIONS the making of statues! So how is it possible that He said not to?

Quote:
Would you care to tell me how you not worship your icons and crosses, because it's beyond me. You might say that you do not worship the objects themselves, but what they represent, but that's moot defense, since all worshippers of something say the same thing. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to worship a statue of Baal, for instance, and not what it represents.

You are quite right about what I was going to say. We don't worship statues, but the persons whom they represent (at least if they represent God, eg. a crucifix. If they represent a saint, then we are honoring the saint, not worshiping him). It's the same thing David did in Psalm 138:2 - "I bow down toward your holy temple/and give thanks to your name". Obviously, he isn't bowing TO the temple. He's bowing to the person who they built the Temple FOR; who it represents: God.
The difference between us and Ba'al worshipers is that they actually were worshiping the statue! They actually thought the statue was Ba'al! It sounds ridiculous, yes, but there are numerous incidents in the OT where it talks of tribes who worshiped statues. Not people they represented, but the statues themselves. One example is in Nehemiah 9:18. They call a statue (not who it represents, but the statue itself) God!

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OK, let's take the exact

OK, let's take the exact verses:

Quote:
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exactly what you said, Exodus 20:4 and 20:5.

Paraphrased:

20:4 Do not make graven images

20:5 Do not bow down to those already made

To me this is the statement. If I was God and had to give such a commandment, I would have given a commandment along the same lines: do not make graven images yourselves, and, if somebody else makes them, do not worship them. that covers all possibilities.

Quote:
The difference between us and Ba'al worshipers is that they actually were worshiping the statue!

So you are practically saying that ll religion practitioners besides those of your own religion worship nothing else than the actual object?

Pardon for asking, but isn't that a bit chauvinistic on the matter ? Aren't you being just a tiny bit over your shoulder with pride by considering that you hold the absolute truth, when you haven't been able to produce much evidence for it? Pride is a sin, you know... ironically...

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Just curious: When Moses

Just curious: When Moses erected a golden snake (on yhwh's instructions) to save the israelites from poisonous snake bites....did that count as a graven image?

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Two things I've gotta

Two things...

1. This "which 10" compares the bible against publications. I found that a bit odd as one is the source and the other two, not. The other comparison, Exodus 20 vs. 34.....well in Exodus 34:1 it was written, The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. I don't see him saying he will write words LIKE the first ones....so the remainder of ch. 34 are NOT the commandments that are revered by the Hebrews and Jews.

2. Those commandments....to a CHRISTIAN are no longer what are important. If you ask a Christian how many commandments, the proper answer is two; the two that Jesus left are the only two that are important. This is why Jesus' mission was to fulfill the law, not repeat it. Romans 6 explains it in full and especially verse 14 illustrates the point... For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. So what are the two? Love God with everything you are and love your neighbor as yourself.

So I've gotta ask, what exactly were they proving? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Actually, I think the command is: "You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4)

And if I might push in, that sounds to me like "don't make graven images, let alone worship them".

Would you care to tell me how you not worship your icons and crosses, because it's beyond me. You might say that you do not worship the objects themselves, but what they represent, but that's moot defense, since all worshippers of something say the same thing. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to worship a statue of Baal, for instance, and not what it represents.

 

This is probably the most amusing thing I find when it comes to evangalists and fundamentalists.  Nine times out of ten (if not more) they will say you should go to the virgin mary and pray for guidance, or worship the lord jesus.  VERY rarely do they actually say you should get guidance, forgiveness or provide worship to god.  Surely this praise of jesus and mary, the making of statues in both of their honour violates this commandment? 

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Quote: 1. This "which 10"

Quote:

1. This "which 10" compares the bible against publications. I found that a bit odd as one is the source and the other two, not. The other comparison, Exodus 20 vs. 34.....well in Exodus 34:1 it was written, The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. I don't see him saying he will write words LIKE the first ones....so the remainder of ch. 34 are NOT the commandments that are revered by the Hebrews and Jews.

So... God states that he will write the EXACT SAME words on the second tablets... yet he doesn't... Total mystery here.

Quote:

2. Those commandments....to a CHRISTIAN are no longer what are important. If you ask a Christian how many commandments, the proper answer is two; the two that Jesus left are the only two that are important. This is why Jesus' mission was to fulfill the law, not repeat it. Romans 6 explains it in full and especially verse 14 illustrates the point... For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. So what are the two? Love God with everything you are and love your neighbor as yourself.

OK, so I want to get to Heaven as fast as possible. I love my neighbour as much as I love myself. Therefore I wish for him to get to heaven ASAP. The fastest way is to kill him. Make it the method of death that he chooses, too. Because nothing can be better than being in Heaven, as Christians say. A small sacrifice to make a soul eternally happy.

See the error with your thought?

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razorphreak wrote: 2.

razorphreak wrote:

2. Those commandments....to a CHRISTIAN are no longer what are important. If you ask a Christian how many commandments, the proper answer is two; the two that Jesus left are the only two that are important. This is why Jesus' mission was to fulfill the law, not repeat it. Romans 6 explains it in full and especially verse 14 illustrates the point... For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. So what are the two? Love God with everything you are and love your neighbor as yourself.

So I've gotta ask, what exactly were they proving? 

Um, if the 10 commandments are no longer that important to christians, then why did everyone get so many christians get upset over the controversy of the ten commandments monument in the courthouse? (Sorry, I can't remember the guy's name that did this.  I think it was in Atlanta, but I could be wrong.  Didn't have time to check)

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I'm almost insulted at how

I'm almost insulted at how blithely the 10 Commandments discussion has moved away from my still unanswered questions.

Are they that difficult?

There are new theists here who did not read the old threads!  Defend your religion for them!

 

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Rigor_OMortis wrote: OK, so

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
OK, so I want to get to Heaven as fast as possible. I love my neighbour as much as I love myself. Therefore I wish for him to get to heaven ASAP. The fastest way is to kill him. Make it the method of death that he chooses, too. Because nothing can be better than being in Heaven, as Christians say. A small sacrifice to make a soul eternally happy.  See the error with your thought?

WHAT???

What you are saying makes no sense what so ever and isn't even close to what I wrote.  If I want my neighbor to go to heaven that means I want to go to heaven.  Would that mean that I want to get there quickly so I should kill myself?  Your statement is wrong because you aren't talking about how you value your life...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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pariahjane wrote: Um, if

pariahjane wrote:
Um, if the 10 commandments are no longer that important to christians, then why did everyone get so many christians get upset over the controversy of the ten commandments monument in the courthouse? (Sorry, I can't remember the guy's name that did this. I think it was in Atlanta, but I could be wrong. Didn't have time to check)

We've got two threads now that are asking the same questions (sapient NO MERGING PLEASE!! - that just screws up the threads).  

As I stated from the other thread that hamby started up, it's all about the "doubting Thomas" complex.  Some need to see these things to believe and it's not necessary.  I don't need a cross, a picture, or a granite thing with words on them to believe.  Personally, I say take them.  There should be separation of church and state and even Jesus preached as much.  Not even "Under God" is needed from the pledge because I don't need two words to express faith in Jesus.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Quote: There should be

Quote:
There should be separation of church and state and even Jesus preached as much.  Not even "Under God" is needed from the pledge because I don't need two words to express faith in Jesus.

At the very least we agree on this.

Now would someone please at least attempt to answer some of my questions?   

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Hambydammit wrote: I'm

Hambydammit wrote:
I'm almost insulted at how blithely the 10 Commandments discussion has moved away from my still unanswered questions.

Are they that difficult?

There are new theists here who did not read the old threads! Defend your religion for them!

It's because they are the wrong questions to start with.  If I asked you to tell me why are the traffic laws in Europe are affecting your driving habbits, you won't be able to apply it if you are not directly affected by those laws. It is the same with Christians and the 10 commandments...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razor, I'm actually

razor, I'm actually starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you really can't understand the questions.

I don't care if Jesus negated the 10.  Even if he did, the questions I asked point out illogic in the commandments themselves.  If your god is so perfect, why don't his commands make any sense?  If they do make sense, would you please explain it in a logical way?

 

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Hambydammit wrote: razor,

Hambydammit wrote:
razor, I'm actually starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if you really can't understand the questions.

Now you know how I feel when I hear some of the responses you guys give to ANSWERS....

But I won't act that way....you have my post on the other thread.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
OK, so I want to get to Heaven as fast as possible. I love my neighbour as much as I love myself. Therefore I wish for him to get to heaven ASAP. The fastest way is to kill him. Make it the method of death that he chooses, too. Because nothing can be better than being in Heaven, as Christians say. A small sacrifice to make a soul eternally happy. See the error with your thought?

WHAT???

What you are saying makes no sense what so ever and isn't even close to what I wrote. If I want my neighbor to go to heaven that means I want to go to heaven. Would that mean that I want to get there quickly so I should kill myself? Your statement is wrong because you aren't talking about how you value your life...

IMHO, the best argument against Rigor would have been that in killing your neighbor you're violating another commandment "thou shalt not kill" which would mean you yourself don't get in to heaven.  The one being discussed is "love your neighbor as you love yourself" not "love your neighbor MORE than you love yourself", so you wouldn't put your own soul in jepardy just for the neighbor ... 

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razorphreak
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thingy wrote: IMHO, the

thingy wrote:
IMHO, the best argument against Rigor would have been that in killing your neighbor you're violating another commandment "thou shalt not kill" which would mean you yourself don't get in to heaven. The one being discussed is "love your neighbor as you love yourself" not "love your neighbor MORE than you love yourself", so you wouldn't put your own soul in jepardy just for the neighbor ...

There is actually a very specific reason I didn't use that argument and that's because of New Testament belief.  Jesus never said that murderers or sinners would not get into heaven.  Even the roman solider because of his belief in who Jesus was was considered wiser and much more of a believer than many other Jews.  If a person is doing the will of God, such as pharaoh or Judas or Hitler, is he damned for doing it?  In that same light however, would you kill a person, displaying a lack of respect for life, if you aren't willing to do that to yourself first?  Murder however is only one example; more so includes theft, saying negative things, and so on...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire