Being forced to church (AA)

tonyjeffers
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Being forced to church (AA)

Hey everyone! I haven't been with you all for a while cuz I have no internet and still can't afford it on my disability.
So I'm able to make it to the library now and have missed this forum greatly. I now find myself in a position that is unsettling to me.
I finally got medicare and have some insurance now and am able to see specialized physicians for my many problems.
One of which is I need a liver transplant. Even tho I haven't drank for a long time and my liver problems have not been primarily
caused by alchohol, my doctor wants me to prove myself by attending AA meetings. He will not put me on the transplant
list unless I attend for at least 6 months. I figure no big deal-just go once a week and do my time.
Well I didn't know I was walking into FUCKING CHURCH! I've only been to 2 meetings so far and dealt with it the best I could,
but everything is "God this and God that" along with all their fucking prayers, which i refuse to read outloud or participate in.
I looked online for atheist AA but the closest is Chicago which is a few hours from me.
I'll get thru it but It's like an hour of torture listening to these poor deluded saps.
Anyway I'm just venting and shouldn't be crying over it when it may save my life. Religion Poisons Everything!
Glad to be back here.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Vastet
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Find a new doctor. He is

Find a new doctor. He is quite capable of telling if you've been drinking with a few tests. He clearly has an ulterior motive.

Glad you're back!

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I'm with Vastet. I know

I'm with Vastet. I know every state is different in how they manage medicare/medicaid. Being on medicaid, I am stuck with whatever doctor is accepting new patients. And if I want to change my primary care doctor, I have to call in and provide a reason. You do not need to give details about the AA meetings, I'll bet, just that the doctor you are seeing is not listening to you and not making the necessary tests. The people I spoke with were very helpful when I switched primary care doctors, since the one I was seeing already had numerous patient complaints.

Here's hoping for a speedy recovery. Praise modern medicine!

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Really, so the only way this

Really, so the only way this asshole doctor will agree to help you is if you kiss his God's ass? Does he think that secular sobriety organizations don't exist?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Sorry to hear the shit. I

Sorry to hear the shit. I wish I had some money I could throw your way.

As for AA, I always thought they were "jesus" based.


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re:: Never heard of them being like a Church . .

   To be honest I never heard of AA meetings were like a Church, maybe you are one of the unfortunates that found 'the' meeting that somehow got turned it into a church. This happens. From the little I know of the group, which is next to nothing, but two shirttail friends who were recovering alcoholics. They were encouraged to call on a "Higher power", what that meant was left up to the individual. Each were then encouraged to believe that “a Power greater than ourselves” could restore them to sanity. That reliance on our selves or egos and our hedonistic or willful impulses would only lead to relapse. That is fully what I know. It was more a matter of admitting you had a problem that was bigger than you could handle alone. It highlighted the problem was bigger than you could handle alone and not so-much everyone embrace some religion, I don't know! It might pay to very discreetly seek out others who feel the same. I always found it interesting that their platform was "a Higher Power" but the vernacular came out to be God. As for prayer, that is really strange because the two friends of friends WERE NOT religious in any sense of the term, not even interested in any religion of any kind. Maybe hunt around for another meeting or group, outside that area, if this isn't working out ?

 p.s. -- Glad to hear from you again Tony. We missed you Smiling  

 


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 Welcome back Tony

 Welcome back Tony


Vastet
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Dana, explaining why AA is

Dana, explaining why AA is religious would take too much effort, so I'll suggest you watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit! episode on AA. They are 100% a religious organisation.

Besides, the idea that you are helpless against an addition without the assistance of a higher power is purely ridiculous. Only you can choose to stop.

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yeah

 Yeah aa is definitely a religious org.  

I read an article about the contraversy over it. 

 Two Groups in toronto were banished from the local 

Listings for catering to atheists and removing god from

Their 12 steps and mission statements. They use the word spiritual 

In their description but the words "god" and "he" are written and 

Spoken everywhere. They even join hands at the meetings end

And recite "the lords prayer" . Ive checked around and all are said 

To be the same or worse. Most in my area are even in church 

Basements. And im pretty much stuck with this doc who is said to have

Great medical skills amyway.  I go back to see him in ten days

And we r gna have a talk.

Thanks for the welcomes back. Its been so long since iv talked w a group of

People who are in touch with reality.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Vastet wrote:Dana,

Vastet wrote:
Dana, explaining why AA is religious would take too much effort, so I'll suggest you watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit! episode on AA. They are 100% a religious organisation. Besides, the idea that you are helpless against an addition without the assistance of a higher power is purely ridiculous. Only you can choose to stop.

Yeah I was going to say the same thing but I kept forgetting to look it up.

I think one of there things is "to admit that every thing is out of your control; and to give it all up to the creator or Universe or higher power, whatever).

 


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Good call on the Penn & Teller videos, I thought

Vastet wrote:
Dana, explaining why AA is religious would take too much effort, so I'll suggest you watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit! episode on AA. They are 100% a religious organisation. Besides, the idea that you are helpless against an addition without the assistance of a higher power is purely ridiculous. Only you can choose to stop.

  I have to give Penn & Teller great credit for cutting through all the crap  on AA and spiritualism. That was very entertaining and yet informative.  I watched, the full version of, the short video and was stuck more by the side bar with one women who wrote their videos were "Contempt prior to investigation.” I was noticing she herself seems to have adopted the AA  formula  AS A WAY OF LIFE. I ve gotten roped into toasts and my alcohol consumption "yearly" is so low any doctors dont sweat it, it is literally teetotaler range.  Whatever you make of addictions. That isnt something Tony could ever be interested in. Yeah. The funnier elements left me flat, but when youre trying to be funny, nobody bats a 1,000. But, It did its' job, that is what is important.

 

 


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Hey Tony . . check out where most of the action is, K?

 

Tony wrote:
I go back to see him in ten days

  And what's the update .. ?

 I noticed you logged-in a couple of times and left. Please allow me to suggest you check out the User with the UserName of Caposkia. He was of interest and has been logging in about every 6 days, involved in 2-3 three threads. He accepted the responsibility without being asked to field questions or comment in each of them. A specific example is

If the God of the bible does not exist, then why debate it? Jimenezj  
     
Questions on the Flood for TWD39 (or any theist)GodsUseForAMosquito

  According to the AnswersInGenesis (Aig/ICR) crowd, ''Scientists are still trying to examine if there's a  real  Photo  of a wooden structure purportedly buried on Mt. Ararat, and of the ... Experts and Turkish officials believe the artefact is Noah's Ark.”


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Hey Tony

 

 

Welcome home - hope the health issues resolve themselves. 

Guess I'd probably do the same thing in your position - just tough it out.

Maybe I'd start speaking in tongues, just for the fun of it. 

How many times do you have to go to get through the course?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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x

 Thanks extreme. Ya tongues would b funny. I caught a snake the other day. I shulda brot it in to charm it. No program completion required yet. Just attendance n participation. 

Dana. Nothing to update that I thot wld b very interesting. Every single person there attributes their recovery to a god or higher power. But even the term higher power is always accompanied w he or him. They maintain in their mission statements that religious debate is not welcome. Of course to me the atheist this requires me to be silent on the subject.I could throw reason out on the table but I think my efforts would be useless. 

On my first day an old high school pal was there who knew I was an atheist. When he was speaking he turned to me n said Tony god can b whatever u want it to be. I just gave him a blank stare.

For now im just biting my tongue but each week I think of lil jabs of reality to throw at em. A lil tact will b required but I intend to tell them that I do not require an imaginary higher power no matter how u define it him or her.

And Dana iv just bn peeking in cuz my girlfriend bot me new smartphone so I cld use the net. I didnt know that hotspot tethering w my home pc wld eat up so much data. Renews in 10 days.And excuse the typing shorthand and format. Im used to keyboard n mouse. Ha. Ill check out that thread

 Thanks.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Still goin'

 One day, with no particular conscious  expectations or intentions, I decided to re-visit AA. And I have been going back occasionally for some time now and feel like Edward Norton-the protagonist in the movie 

"Fight Club". He goes to all kinds of support groups for conditions that he does not have. 

I now can relate to many of them in some ways, except for their ever present cling to faith. Most of the time I feel like I am just studying test subjects. The regulars all know I am an atheist.

I see now that most of them think that they need thier god mostly to protect them form their own selves. 

They seem to rationalize their god to be their "default" just as atheism is our default postion. For them, If they "give up" or "surrender" then that leaves only a god to be in control.

I see that they are just afraid of the idea that they are all alone inside their head. So afraid that they will accept any conception of a god or "higher power" even

if it were mentally perceived as an inanimate object for them to talk to or bond with, like a child with a security blanket. Yes, they admit that they are weak, and even ignorant as to be unable 

to even define god. They seem to not even care if god is real at all, as long as they can pretend they have someone or something to protect them from self-destruction.

Of course all this is nothing new, but I have found myself to be somewhat more sympathetic to them then I was before. 

I have yet to let go of my anger toward my dead mother for instilling her religion in me, but in this AA forum no hell, devil, or afterlife is ever mentioned. Perhaps their hell is the loneliness 

and self-destruction they fear so much. If all forms of religion could end there I guess it would be benign in a sense. The downfall of ignorance and retardation of intelligent progress would 

still be inevitable, but I think that may be the case for the human condition anyway. 

 And as with us atheist, obviously individuals above mentioned do not represent the entire group. As for those few who do not push any punishment by a god, but only self-punishment (destruction)

when deviating from their faith, and those who do not claim to have a clear conception or any "real" evidence of a god, I have no quarrel with at this time.

That's all I have to say. My name is Tony and I am an atheist.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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i think this is a very

i think this is a very mature position. we in the west, and that includes atheists, tend to have an all-or-nothing approach to most systems of thought, and this directly corresponds to our christian heritage. if one is going to believe in a god (we say), one should believe whole-hog, in his/her/its objective reality and run everything to its uttermost conclusion (and i have seen atheists on this site say basically that, numerous times). if he doesn't, he's somehow "cheating." this is an immature position. we get bewildered and somewhat angry when approached with, for example, the vedantist, who worships, prays to, and chants the name of a personal god (the ishvara), while maintaining intellectually that ishvara's existence is ultimately illusory, that there is no god, that worshipping a god or goddess is pure expedience. or with the jain, who was militantly atheist millennia before that was cool, yet is devoutly religious, lighting incense in front of the statues of his "fordmakers." it's just too much intellectual work trying to categorize them, isn't it?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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tonyjeffers wrote:Hey

tonyjeffers wrote:
Hey everyone! I haven't been with you all for a while cuz I have no internet and still can't afford it on my disability. So I'm able to make it to the library now and have missed this forum greatly. I now find myself in a position that is unsettling to me. I finally got medicare and have some insurance now and am able to see specialized physicians for my many problems. One of which is I need a liver transplant. Even tho I haven't drank for a long time and my liver problems have not been primarily caused by alchohol, my doctor wants me to prove myself by attending AA meetings. He will not put me on the transplant list unless I attend for at least 6 months. I figure no big deal-just go once a week and do my time. Well I didn't know I was walking into FUCKING CHURCH! I've only been to 2 meetings so far and dealt with it the best I could, but everything is "God this and God that" along with all their fucking prayers, which i refuse to read outloud or participate in. I looked online for atheist AA but the closest is Chicago which is a few hours from me. I'll get thru it but It's like an hour of torture listening to these poor deluded saps. Anyway I'm just venting and shouldn't be crying over it when it may save my life. Religion Poisons Everything! Glad to be back here.


I see you people are keeping up old posts... lack of new topics of discussion?!

Actually I think you've missed what shocked me here. You have focused too much on despising the doctor for forcing his "religion" (because it's your agenda here). And forget about the cause of this stupidity. Individual People have the right to be stupid as long as they don't break the law. Society cannot afford to be stupid.

Charity is petty and does nothing. For you are giving fish for a man and not teaching him to fish. Charity depends on a personal whim, whereas hunger comes wether others feel sorry for you or not. 

I do not understand why some people are shocked if someone skips the line at the bus or at the mess hall because he or she has a fatter pocket but are not shocked by the fact that the fatter your pocket is the fastest you can get healthcare without having to go through some jerk of a doctor who wont put you on a needed treatment.

I'm just so happy I live in Europe! seriously! I do not understand why some people want to jump ship "literally" when they get to New York and not come back... if they only knew what America is really like. (I worked on ships before)

I work for a charity in the UK now who supports disabled people. They have the best care for them that I have ever seen in any country. These people are proud of their NHS and everyone is entitled to their fair share. You can always go to the private sector if you have a fat pocket, I'm fine with that. But if you use the NHS, who only judges you by how much urgent is your medical condition, you also get top medical care! It does not matter if you do not have money!

You cannot afford the internet because of your disability! I'm stunned! The guy I'm supporting has his own flat, internet and a car. 5 personal assistants who do shifts 24/7. He has deep cerebral palsy.

What are atheists in America wating for? You should open an AA!!!!

link 1

link 2

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies