If the God of the bible does not exist, then why debate it?
Offline In attacking Jesus Christ , Atheism might render itself a disservice.
Do you lead an attack on a non existent being?
Atheism to the logistician seems unreasonable.
At night we see many stars in the sky. But when the sun rises, they disappear. Can we claim, therefore, that during the day there are no stars in the sky? If we fail to see God, perhaps it is because we pass through the night of ignorance in this matter. it is premature to claim He does not exist.
Richard Wurmbrand
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
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I do so partly because of the sheer number of people who DO believe said God exists. Mostly, however, I do so because belief in said God can make otherwise good people do and say ridiculous and/or horrible things.
You may notice that no one argues against lkajsdlkjaoaiksj because no one is arguing for lkajsdlkjaoaiksj.
I have found that most atheists don't attack jesus as in, go out of their way to pick a fight. Yes, there are atheists who do such things, but that is a very small percentage. I believe atheists just want to be left alone and only jump in to a discussion or protest if they feel their point of view will assist.
You assume that all atheists believe jesus was "non existent" but there could be a good number of atheists who believe jesus did exist but that he was just a charismatic guy who had his life blown up to meet the needs of being a "messiah".
You assume that all logisticians are non-atheists.
Actually, you can see the stars in the sky during the day you just don't understand how to do it.
It is not premature to claim "he" does not exist. Many of us have spent a 20, 30 or 40 years working on these questions. There is nothing premature about the amount of time we have put in studying, observing and questioning the possibilities.
Can you prove that the other gods of the other religions do not exist? You think your faith is exclusive and proves that your religion is the correct one. You have faith but it both your strongest and your weakest link in a debate.
To : the OP
I'm running late so this discussion will have to wait but because I wanted to give it the detail with any research it deserves.
> Do you subscribe to any of the christophanies of Jesus found in the Old Testament ?
"Attacking Christ Jesus"
> Although I want to be clear about what you are insinuating is happening.
> There are many ex-christians that frequent the board. As many of the Mods have noted, it's a cultural thing. If this wasn't North America/Europe primarially, then there would be more discussion of 'other foreign gods'. Such as, the gods of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Rama, Indra, Durga, Kali etc.). On this board, I have no knowledge of any Hindus ever visiting. So it may have never come up is all.
So exactly what support do you have for this Jesus bashing ? Are other religions given a pass in your view ?
p.s. -- Any feedback on this I'd greatly appreciate
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Rhetorical question, I hope ?
Does it ? Well, get one to come on the board and explain why. That should be interesting.
Replace the word "god" with any of the endless supernatural fantasies you can imagine, or someone else already imagined, and hopefully you'll notice why this charming quote really doesn't mean anything.
So if I tell you there's a Death Star behind Europa that will blow up the Earth whenever the fairy in command of it decides to, you have no reason to argue the point.
Theists never get it.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The attacks are almost always upon the profiteers benefitting from the claim of a god existing.
You would know this how?
Not very bright, is he. The night returns and the stars are seen. Who claims to have seem this god and where can we evaluate him or her? If not actually seen then which idiot is making a claim of knowing what was neer experienced? Even hallucinations are better than that.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
It's, completetly missing the point, of course, but that's the standard argument.
If the God of the bible does not exist, then why debate it?
If god exists, why are you here debating it?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I do not recall debating the issue. Believers like you keep bringing it up for some reason. I take it as a given that god does not exist and deal with the fool who claims it does.
So far I have yet to get the attention of any of you folks regarding your fallacy that your bible god and no god are the only choices. Not one of you folks have dared try get from gods to one god to the bible god. That is hugely more difficult than the simple, god no god matter.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Because it makes sense to talk about someone
Who exists or who has existed . But it makes no sense to
Talk about someone who does not exist.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Believers are so incredibly stupid. It makes no sense to talk about MacBeth or Hamlet or Dirty Harry or Paul Bunyon or the Wizard of Oz or Sherlock Holmes or Harry Potter. There are entire industries based upon such discussions yet to pretend to make a point they never heard of it.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Uh uh, not what I asked. Do you seek out people who claim the world is flat to debate them? Do you seek out people who claim the sky is red to debate them? Do you seek out people who claim the sun is a shiny light bulb to debate them? Do you seek out people who claim that life doesn't exist to debate them?
No, you don't. Because it's a waste of time. Either they are delusional or they are trolls.
So why do you come here to debate god? Nothing you or we say matters. You will never convince anyone here because you cannot provide evidence. You are wasting your time in every sense of the words.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
another jack-off coming in here throwing axioms around and pretending to be a "logician." seems to be a rash of those going around...
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
another Communist coming in here throwing axioms around and pretending to be a "logician." seems to be a rash of those going around...
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
uh-huh. and where precisely are my axioms on this thread or any other in recent memory?
and is communist supposed to be an insult?
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Are you a communist? If yes, why?
It is night here but on the other side of the globe they can see the stars. The hubble telescope and the ISS can see the stars when a human in sunlight cannot. So we have confirmed the stars don't shut down.
So, this analogy breaks down because there is no instrument but a humans gut feeling that a god exists. And the Christian god goes on about how he LOVES us or rather his followers go on about it. You know, how He doesn't want a single soul to be lost. Why does He hide? Why set up so many obstacles to "salvation"? At least Adam and Eve supposedly saw God walking in the cool of the evening. We should get an equal shot.
I love looking at the stars at night and do it most nights (except when cloudy). I live in the country and as it is the new moon now it is very dark and quiet. Why can't God talk to me then? Why do I have to pretend he talks to me? Why do I need an ancient book to hear his supposed words? They are copies of copies of copies, translations of translations. No original text. The NT isn't even in the original spoken word of Jesus, he spoke Aramaic. Why Greek? Maybe because oral traditions went on for decades and a Greek or two wrote down the oral tradition in his language. Got to have lost something there and built up big fish stories.
We got Hebrew, Why not Aramaic? And why was it the Romans were the ones to decide what books belonged and did not belong in the bible? and not this god who couldn't even put pen to paper. Why are there 41k Christian denominations. Because the Bible is not a clear book to determine its meaning. It is more poetry that anyone can see what they want in it. If god created language why such a messy book?
So the Christian church is nothing but babel and fairy tales.
Isn't truth more important than fairy tales <- That is the answer to your question.
Truth is important and anything less distorts reality and makes people crazy.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Right. So when having the "santa's not real" talk with your kids, you're not actually allowed to mention santa at all....because that wouldn't make sense ??
Pull the other one.
i'm a marxist, and i love how you're trying to highjack your own thread.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
When was the last time you had a face to face talk with the president, queen of England or king of Spain? Why can't you talk to them? If the politicians can talk to them, why can't you and I talk to them?
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Why are you a Marxist ? Tired of the proletarians ?
We are not considered important enough to make time for in their extremely busy schedules. Furthermore, there are plenty of politicians who cannot get a face-to-face talk with their heads of state, either.
The desperation is coming through the keystrokes.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Triple
DP
Notice how these trolls ignore counter arguments and counter questions? They have no intention on having a debate or discussion. They only want to stir the pot and see what comes of their hyperbole.
Still waiting to see how they will prove the other gods of the other religions are false.
Are you saying your god isn't everywhere and only holds court? The president doesn't tell me if I don't believe in him he will burn me forever. He doesn't have such an ego.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
The question of why The Hebrew God does or does not choose to reveal himself is Secondary . First question to answer is whether or not he exists. But in answering this first question , you must remind yourself that ignorance in the reality of God does not disprove his existence .
The same applies with the question of other Gods. To answer this question , you will need to answer the first question called the great question.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
"The question of why The Hebrew God does or does not choose to reveal himself is Secondary ."
The opposite is true. I may have been able to grant you this if you'd either not specified a particular god, or if you'd used a different one, but the whole free will thing shuts you down when you jump into certain versions, maybe all but I'm not fully versed in all, of the Hebrew god.
The fact that god hasn't made itself known literally destroys the free will to choose to have faith in it. Which, according to certain teachings, would be anathema to the will of god. Proving either the gods nonexistence, or instead a vast discrepancy between god and the way humans have preserved gods teachings; which effectively means you'd be an idiot to follow the faith no matter which way the cards land.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
No, your perpetually absent God is of primary importance. Hence the phrase "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."
Easy question. He doesn't exist. The only "evidence" is the shadow cast by those desperate to believe he does exist. So you are left only with the gut feeling of some people and even they have their doubts. So he doesn't exist and neither does any other culture's god(s). Thanks for confirming that. Didn't realize that is where you were going.
The invisible and non-existent things look exactly alike.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Thanks for my morning laugh.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
No problem.
When people post stuff not worth my time for an actual typed reply I throw up stuff like that.
And just slipping in the word "reality" also doesn't prove anything. But hey, points for trying.
You know, if you really believed all this, you'd be a slave to anyone with an imagination, but of course you're not, so you don't.
Was there anything else ?
re :: Déjà Vu
Speaking of irrational, that this endlessly repeated 'argument' of yours is a fallacious appeal to ignorance and thus, is irrational.
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"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
if you want to talk to me about this topic, please become conversant in the terminology. i extend that courtesy to others, so i don't think it's too much for me to ask.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
It's no evidence for one either. You've heard of Russell and his famous teapot analogy before haven't you ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I believe that Karl Mark was on the side OF the proletarians, not TIRED of the proletarians.
Not that I am a Marxist, but you have read the Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engles haven't you ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
i'm actually betting he has, and that's the worst place for those casually interested in marxism to start. it was a specific political program within a specific set of objective conditions for a specific movement that unfortunately never materialized. it's popular because it's short, inflammatory, and contains the word "communist" in the title (an adjective marxists rarely utilized until lenin changed the name of the bolshevik wing of the russian social democratic labor party to the communist party of the soviet union).
if someone wants to begin seriously being able to discuss marxist political and/or economic theory (economic was always secondary to political with marx), i recommend either reading the first volume of capital in its entirety or robert c. tucker's marx-engels reader.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Karl Marx is no different then German Bourgeoisie George Bush. You may not understand this , but I see otherwise . Communism has a hidden upper class, no different then capitalism . They both have the same agenda; power and control.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Atheism simply means "not believing in any gods"; it doesn't necessarily make take a stance that there are no gods. You're over-defining the word. What you're talking about is gnostic atheism.
And this has to do exactly with the existence/non-existence of god how exactly ?
But, since you brought it up, I would like to ask, when did George Bush, an American politician, become "German" bourgeoisie ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Thanks for pointing that out. I have actually not followed through with the reading list that you suggested to me before, even though it is on my to do list. Thus far, I have been reading : Three Men Who Made a Revolution by Wolfe, and have read Rolf Theen's Lenin. Theen's book was surprisngly in depth about the early days of Lenin, for such a slim volume. Of course, both books might be bullshit since I am not as versed in the history of Marxism and Communism as you are.
Granted, I do not know enough about Communism/Marxism to actually make the claim of being /opposing.
However, I've always had an interest in finding out more about it, because words like Socialism/Communism get thrown carelessly around in political debates the way that words like secular/humanist get thrown around in religious debates.
Call me an intolerant ass, but I get highly irritated at people that use terms and have no clue what they are talking about. (It generally makes me want to stomp someone). But, I have always been interested in Russian history and even pre-Communist Russian history for some reason. Why I don't know.
I have heard the book Das Kapital, as being an essential book to understanding Marx. Of course, Marx was not Russian and according to Theen's work, Marx did not actually hold out any hope for a nation like Russia being a good example of a nation that would embrace a revolution. (If Theen is to be believed of course). Which is another reason that dudes like Lenin and such fascinate me somewhat.
Plus, I remember someone that I knew, that had once been involved in the American Communist Party, had talked about the hard core division between Trotskyites and others. Which piqued my curiosity even more.
Now, I realize that I have just hijacked this thread, but it was already going south anyway.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
So the theist dodges and in the process proves he knows as much about politics and economics as he does science: Nothing at all.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.