North Korea is one fucked up place

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Eventually world powers and

Eventually world powers and the UN will realise that not only do sanctions not work, they exacerbate the problem.
Or it won't matter anymore.

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Vastet wrote:Eventually

Vastet wrote:
Eventually world powers and the UN will realise that not only do sanctions not work, they exacerbate the problem. Or it won't matter anymore.

If N Korea was one of the top three producers of oil in the world we would have already invaded "to free the people from oppression".

 


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While there may be some

While there may be some truth to that, Russia and China are the real reasons nothing has been done about NK in 10 years despite their blatant pursuit of a nuclear arsenal.
China would support NK over any western alliance, at least for now. Russia would make it difficult because they don't like any foreign military operating within striking distance.
It'd get messy.

I think there's probably been a couple presidents who'd have loved to go in. They can't though. All they can do is support and arm SK and Japan and hope China stops giving a shit about NK.

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Vastet wrote:While there may

Vastet wrote:
While there may be some truth to that, Russia and China are the real reasons nothing has been done about NK in 10 years despite their blatant pursuit of a nuclear arsenal. China would support NK over any western alliance, at least for now. Russia would make it difficult because they don't like any foreign military operating within striking distance. It'd get messy. I think there's probably been a couple presidents who'd have loved to go in. They can't though. All they can do is support and arm SK and Japan and hope China stops giving a shit about NK.

NK is a shithole country with a shithole government with a shithole leader. I would have preferred us to get in to a war with them rather than Iraq, but there is nothing to gain. The best thing to do is use the UN and the other countries you mentioned and pressure NK.

It would be best if NK never had a recovery. It would be best if it got 10x worse with the drought and the people. It would be best if the country lost 80-90% of their people which would greatly weaken their standing with the world. Eventually they would either become completely dependent on the other countries or they would have to attack a neighboring country for resources. At that point, they would be over run, the government would be caught, tried and hung.

 


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Russians ate their children

Russians ate their children back in, I think the 20's?   Something like that.   Really bad famine.   Obviously.  Look up Albert Fish.   Notorious serial killer.

Got his taste for human flesh from living in Russia during that decade when he was a little tyke.   He started catching kids in his 70's or something and eating them.

Yeah, North Korea is screwed.

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You know what really freaks

You know what really freaks me out?   It's that Russia and China never seem to take a reality check.

The Soviet Union supported East Berlin.   The West supported West Berlin.

America supported South Korea.   China supported North Korea.

Take a step back and look at what the quality of life is for the natives.

Whatever barbs you want to throw at America or the "West", you can't help but admit, we bring prosperity and a much higher standard of living. 

Don't you think the average Chinese person would stop and ponder this for a minute or two?  Don't get me wrong.   I like the Chinese.    But their government could use some serious work.   Stand up guys, take 'em down.  Revolution.

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Watcher wrote:Russians ate

Watcher wrote:

Russians ate their children back in, I think the 20's?   Something like that.   Really bad famine.   Obviously.  Look up Albert Fish.   Notorious serial killer.

Got his taste for human flesh from living in Russia during that decade when he was a little tyke.   He started catching kids in his 70's or something and eating them.

Yeah, North Korea is screwed.

i thought fish got his taste in polynesia in the 19th century.  i'm not sure if he lived as long as the 1920s.  if he did, he was already old and doing his killings then.

i'm against the death penalty as it is now applied in most countries, but i do believe some people are just like mad dogs that should be put down before they harm anyone.  some people cannot be rehabilitated, and fish was one of them.  on some deep evolutionary level, i feel a profound revulsion for him.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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digitalbeachbum wrote:Vastet

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Vastet wrote:
While there may be some truth to that, Russia and China are the real reasons nothing has been done about NK in 10 years despite their blatant pursuit of a nuclear arsenal. China would support NK over any western alliance, at least for now. Russia would make it difficult because they don't like any foreign military operating within striking distance. It'd get messy. I think there's probably been a couple presidents who'd have loved to go in. They can't though. All they can do is support and arm SK and Japan and hope China stops giving a shit about NK.

NK is a shithole country with a shithole government with a shithole leader. I would have preferred us to get in to a war with them rather than Iraq, but there is nothing to gain. The best thing to do is use the UN and the other countries you mentioned and pressure NK.

It would be best if NK never had a recovery. It would be best if it got 10x worse with the drought and the people. It would be best if the country lost 80-90% of their people which would greatly weaken their standing with the world. Eventually they would either become completely dependent on the other countries or they would have to attack a neighboring country for resources. At that point, they would be over run, the government would be caught, tried and hung.

 

Who is going to over run them? Their civilian population is poor, ignorant and unarmed. Their military is large and well armed. It is equally obvious that the government doesn't give a fuck if their population starves. The political elites live comfortably and no amount of sanctions will cut off their supply, only the civilians lose and they are completely powerless to do anything about it. 

Vastet is right, sanctions have never worked anywhere they have been tried. All they do is lead to the discomfort of the civilian population and since in these countries all news is filtered by the government, inevitably the people blame other countries. The best way to destroy an authoritarian government is to encourage trade, because with western goods also comes western culture. China, for all of its humanitarian problems, treats its citizens far better today than in the past and there are even groups pushing for things like unions in China. Change is slow, but it is happening and if we had pursued a policy of sanctions against China, there is no way that there would be any movement to improve the conditions for Chinese workers. 

The only way to destroy an authoritarian government without going to war is to educate the people and expose them to the possibility that life could be better. Only then will they form the groups necessary to force their government to change. As long as they are isolated from the rest of the world and completely dependent on their government, they have no options. Our misguided sanction policy is killing people and it pisses me off. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I'm hoping against hope that

I'm hoping against hope that this new Kim is only being a hardass while he consolidates his power.   Then, when once in firm control, he acts reasonably.   His dorm mates in European colleges said he was a good guy.

He's a big fan of a lot of American sports stars and whatnot.   Come on, Kim.   Do the right thing.  Do the right thing for your people.    Do the right thing for the world.   Be an upstart and buck the legacy your father and grandfather laid down for you.

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I mean, honestly, let's

I mean, honestly, let's imagine this.

Kim opens up North Korea, denounces everything that has happened for the past 60 years or so.

And just opens up.

Industry would flood them.   Human rights groups would flood them.

Their economy would BOOM.   Like insanely so.    Kids walking around making 20 times what their parents ever made.    Fucking tax them, Kim.   Go  ten percent.   Ten percent tax.  So the fuck what?    They're still making insane amounts of money in their eyes.    Build a fucking Death Star.   We'll loan you some NASA experts.

It will be considered the golden years in your nation for centuries.

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Watcher wrote:I mean,

Watcher wrote:

I mean, honestly, let's imagine this.

Kim opens up North Korea, denounces everything that has happened for the past 60 years or so.

And just opens up.

Industry would flood them.   Human rights groups would flood them.

Their economy would BOOM.   Like insanely so.    Kids walking around making 20 times what their parents ever made.    Fucking tax them, Kim.   Go  ten percent.   Ten percent tax.  So the fuck what?    They're still making insane amounts of money in their eyes.    Build a fucking Death Star.   We'll loan you some NASA experts.

It will be considered the golden years in your nation for centuries.

10% is nothing.  here in slovakia we have 20% sales tax, 19% income (or is it the other way round?).  we also have a pretty generous minimum on your taxable income, however, so i get pretty much all my income tax refunded.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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iwbiek wrote:10% is

iwbiek wrote:

10% is nothing.  here in slovakia we have 20% sales tax, 19% income (or is it the other way round?).  we also have a pretty generous minimum on your taxable income, however, so i get pretty much all my income tax refunded.

 

You live in Slovakia?   How quaint.

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It'd be cool if Kim did

It'd be cool if Kim did that, but he might end up assassinated 5 minutes later if he did. I'm sure there are very powerful folk in the military who'd not stand for it.
If he'd even be interested.

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Watcher wrote:iwbiek

Watcher wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

10% is nothing.  here in slovakia we have 20% sales tax, 19% income (or is it the other way round?).  we also have a pretty generous minimum on your taxable income, however, so i get pretty much all my income tax refunded.

 

You live in Slovakia?   How quaint.

yup.  only been pointing that out for about 5 years now...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Watcher wrote:Russians ate

Watcher wrote:

Russians ate their children back in, I think the 20's?   Something like that.   Really bad famine.   Obviously.  Look up Albert Fish.   Notorious serial killer.

Got his taste for human flesh from living in Russia during that decade when he was a little tyke.   He started catching kids in his 70's or something and eating them.

Yeah, North Korea is screwed.

Holy Shit Batman... he was nuts.

It was about this time that Fish began to indulge in self-harm. He would self-embed needles into his groin and abdomen.[11] After his arrest, X-rays revealed that Fish had at least 29 needles lodged in his pelvic region.[11] He also hit himself repeatedly with a nail-studded paddle and inserted wool doused with lighter fluid into his anus and set it alight.[13]