Meat eating might have made us human, sorry peta/vegetarians. Not.

Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10634
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Meat eating might have made us human, sorry peta/vegetarians. Not.

Anthropologist Finds Evidence of Hominin Meat Eating 1.5 Million Years Ago: Eating Meat May Have 'Made Us Human'
ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2012) — A skull fragment unearthed by anthropologists in Tanzania shows that our ancient ancestors were eating meat at least 1.5 million years ago, shedding new light into the evolution of human physiology and brain development.

"Meat eating has always been considered one of the things that made us human, with the protein contributing to the growth of our brains," said Charles Musiba, Ph.D., associate professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado Denver, who helped make the discovery. "Our work shows that 1.5 million years ago we were not opportunistic meat eaters, we were actively hunting and eating meat."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...

They could be if people didn't kill each other over them. Culture wars are not bloodless, where the hell did that naked assertion come from? Besides all of nature killing humans from desease and old age, it seems we are too stupid to make old age our primary goal.

I wish humanity could leave it at trash talk. But we don't. Culture wars are  blood sport and the apex of the ignorance of our species that there is nothing special about our strife, freind or foe, it still amounts to a battle over reasources. I wish a "Culture war" could be as lame and bloodless as losing to a family member in a game of Trival Pursuit or Monopoly. But evolution doesn't give one shit who wins or who dies. If friend or foe fuck and gain resources, that is what counts.

 

The only thing our species can do is to recognize this. That is our only hope.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

We could do the right thing and let them run free to be subject to humane slaughter by wolves and such.

Or like not breed em at all...

They will breed themselves. The difference is where and how they live from birth to death. Freedom from hunger and thirst, freedom from predators, basic medical care.

Quote:
Quote:
We be animals. In nature the rule is eat anything that doesn't eat you first.

Well then I guess you have no objection to me pummeling you to death with a stick if you look at me the wrong way since that's perfectly natural animal behaviour. What's that? That woudn't be cool? You mean you somehow only resort to these idiotic appeals to nature when it's an argument for YOU acting like an asshole. Shocking.

I have no objection to you trying. If you fail, end of discussion. If you succeed this is both a death penalty and a concealed carry state so there are three possible consequences of success. The law and social custom are decidedly against your proposed behavior.

Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Raise a child on veggie diet  and expect Child Protective Services to call it abuse. There are specific development deformities caused by a meat deficient diet that no amount of whole protein diets can prevent. In the good old days three years of breast feeding got infants over the hump until they had teeth and jaw strength to handle meat.

Absolutely massive fucking preposterous lie. How the fuck could people survive on a vegan diet for decades on end but somehow children have magical special nutritional needs that only meat can satisfy? Name me something vital in a human diet that meat is necessary for motherfucker, just one thing. Disgusting fear mongering propaganda.

 

Infants are not adults. Their needs are different. Beyond that when you talk about veggies you must specify which degree of whacko you are talking about. Fish eating and Ovo-lacto infants can survive is the rest is managed carefully and vitamin supplements are given. I of course choose the craziest of the crazy.

Animal fats are needed for infants nerves including the brain to develop which is why I said three years of breast feeding in the good old days was what got them through it. Which is why the fats in milk and egg yolks will do it. Fish without fat will not work.

BTW: How do you reconcile torturing and non-sensient as being a problem?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
1) No one is saying a vegan

1) No one is saying a vegan diet can't be unhealthy. Obviously you can do retarded shit like eat almost nothing but fruit and not get vital nutrients and, shockingly enough, become sick. It really is preposterous how people often think "vegan diet" means one thing and one thing only while they clearly understand the massive difference between a healthy omnivore diet and going to McDonalds every day.

2) A large amount of soy (or any at all in fact) is not a necessary part of a vegan diet and therefore obviously not a necessary part of a child's diet. The health effects of soy have been and are being studied widely with results both for and against depending on circumstance and amount of consumption, so it's propably a good idea not to consume a fuckton of those products (especially for kids as the studies indicate), specifically the higly processed soy products.

3) Your references spout shit like B12 deficiency which is fixed by taking a friggin vitamin pill once a day/week. It hardly means a vegan diet can not be perfectly healthy if many vegans are so fucking stupid they don't make sure they receive vital nutrients. There's also a big difference between veganism and raw veganism, which is what the family in your little horror story was doing where the mother was such an irresponsible cunt she obviously made no effort to find credible information about how to provide a healthy diet for her kids. Do you see me pulling up stuff like how excessive meat eating increases risks of heart attacks, or some of those morbidly obese kids, and declaring that therefore all diets including meat are extremely dangerous? No you fucking don't because I don't need to rely on propaganda and confirmation bias.

4) The first link you just posted actually says "There's no question that a balanced, well-planned vegan diet can be healthy" so you just bitch slapped your own argument.

Vastet wrote:
vegan diet isn't what its cracked up to be, once you cut out the vegan sites which only lie to you.

Except that plenty of non-vegan organizations declare a WELL PLANNED vegan diet safe (your own friggin sources among them dude, seriously), which once again does not mean that ignorant people can't fuck it up.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...

Apparently I'm a "terrorist faggot" so who knows what'll happen.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3641
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
 ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...

Brian37 wrote:
They could be if people didn't kill each other over them. Culture wars are not bloodless...

 

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Brian, how come Vastet understood the context of my statement but you didn't ?  Please, stop taking my remarks and making mountains out of molehills, sheesh !

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Vastet wrote:
While I'm on this segment of vegan stupidity, what exactly would you recommend be done with the billions of pigs, cows, and chickens which have no natural habitat and haven't had one for millennia, instead of caring for them as we have for those millennia and eating them as any predator consumes its prey, though in far more humane practices of slaughter than can be found in nature?

I am pretty sure, that the Anti-Natalist position on this is to sterilize all of them and allow them to not be able to breed any more of their species.

Well that'd be fine too I guess but you could just kill em all (I mean as a practical matter who has the time to sterilize every friggin chicken without torturing them in the process which is what you're trying to prevent in the first place). That's my position, it's sure as hell not the position of most vegans though.

I would assume the simplest solution would be to kill off just one more rooster so the hens aren't fertilized. Evil chicken eaters separate out all but one rooster at the start instead of letting them play out a Highlander in the hen house that veggies presumably like to watch.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:They will

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

They will breed themselves. The difference is where and how they live from birth to death. Freedom from hunger and thirst, freedom from predators, basic medical care.

Medical care for the billions of animals produced every year? You have to realize what a joke that is, seriously. Not gonna bother delving deeper in factory farm conditions yet again, people can look it up themselves if they give a shit.

As for them breeding themselves, we have them locked in friggin cages. We can do whatever we want to em including preventing them from breeding.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We be animals. In nature the rule is eat anything that doesn't eat you first.

Well then I guess you have no objection to me pummeling you to death with a stick if you look at me the wrong way since that's perfectly natural animal behaviour. What's that? That woudn't be cool? You mean you somehow only resort to these idiotic appeals to nature when it's an argument for YOU acting like an asshole. Shocking.

I have no objection to you trying. If you fail, end of discussion. If you succeed this is both a death penalty and a concealed carry state so there are three possible consequences of success. The law and social custom are decidedly against your proposed behavior.

Ok, you have just verified the acceptability of brutally assaulting people for no real reason.

Quote:
Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Raise a child on veggie diet  and expect Child Protective Services to call it abuse. There are specific development deformities caused by a meat deficient diet that no amount of whole protein diets can prevent. In the good old days three years of breast feeding got infants over the hump until they had teeth and jaw strength to handle meat.

Absolutely massive fucking preposterous lie. How the fuck could people survive on a vegan diet for decades on end but somehow children have magical special nutritional needs that only meat can satisfy? Name me something vital in a human diet that meat is necessary for motherfucker, just one thing. Disgusting fear mongering propaganda.

 

Infants are not adults. Their needs are different. Beyond that when you talk about veggies you must specify which degree of whacko you are talking about. Fish eating and Ovo-lacto infants can survive is the rest is managed carefully and vitamin supplements are given. I of course choose the craziest of the crazy.

Animal fats are needed for infants nerves including the brain to develop which is why I said three years of breast feeding in the good old days was what got them through it. Which is why the fats in milk and egg yolks will do it. Fish without fat will not work.

So you're gonna assert that no child has ever grown up healthy on a vegan diet and somehow this information is not widely known? Sound like a conspiracy theory much? You know what they say about extraordinary claims.

Quote:
BTW: How do you reconcile torturing and non-sensient as being a problem?

I don't know what you're talking about.


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

harleysportster wrote:

...

 

IOW. So far as I can tell, there is no eminent danger to vegan children with proper information.

Children are different from infants. In any other species our infants would be premature births.

Quote:
I had heard of quite a few people that said they were vegetarian for "health purposes" and wondered those were.

All the exercise in matching the amino acid and calory content of meat and the extra effort chewing and digesting it particularly if "healthier" since it is uncooked.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3641
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:..... why

Manageri wrote:
.

.... why don't you explain to me why gorillas don't do the BBQ thing then despite their huge canines and why their diet consists almost entirely of plants (while the remaining few percent consists of insects, hardly something they need those teeth for).

 

 ...probably because in nature, teeth also evolved for use as weapons ?   For example, why does a herbivore such as a hippopotamus need teeth like this,    .....for eating plants ?

                                                                                         

 

                                                                                          

 

 

 

 

   

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...

Maybe we could change that.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3641
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...

Maybe we could change that.

 

 

    Knock yourself out Lee Harvey Oswald.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10634
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
1-4) Right back at you with

1-4) Right back at you with meat. Nothing unhealthy or bad in eating meat. And you don't need to pick up a hundred vitamin supplements to make up for the fact you aren't eating healthily.
People are far less likely to fuck up a balanced meal than dozens of vitamins.

And grats on your new strawman. I never said it was necessarily unhealthy to eat vegan, I said it's healthiness is not what its cracked up to be.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

1) No one is saying a vegan diet can't be unhealthy. Obviously you can do retarded shit like eat almost nothing but fruit and not get vital nutrients and, shockingly enough, become sick. It really is preposterous how people often think "vegan diet" means one thing and one thing only while they clearly understand the massive difference between a healthy omnivore diet and going to McDonalds every day.

Which be ye? Which be retarded?

vegetarian.about.com/od/vegetarianvegan101/tp/TypesofVeg.htm

1. Pescatarian (also spelled pescetarian)

The word “pescatarian” is occasionally used to describe those who abstain from eating all meat and animal flesh with the exception of fish. Although the word is not commonly used, more and more people are adopting this kind of diet, usually for health reasons or as a stepping stone to a fully vegetarian diet.

2. Flexitarian/Semi-vegetarian

You don’t have to be vegetarian to love vegetarian food! “Flexitarian” is a term recently coined to describe those who eat a mostly vegetarian diet, but occasionally eat meat.

3. Vegetarian (Lacto-ovo- vegetarian)

When most people think of vegetarians, they think of lacto-ovo-vegetarians. People who do not eat beef, pork, poultry, fish, shellfish or animal flesh of any kind, but do eat eggs and dairy products are lacto-ovo vegetarians (“lacto” comes from the Latin for milk, and “ovo” for egg).

Lacto-vegetarian is used to describe a vegetarian who does not eat eggs, but does eat dairy products.

Ovo-vegetarian refers to people who do not eat meat or dairy products but do eat eggs.

4. Vegan

Vegans do not eat meat of any kind and also do not eat eggs, dairy products, or processed foods containing these or other animal-derived ingredients such as gelatin. Many vegans also refrain from eating foods that are made using animal products that may not contain animal products in the finished process, such as sugar and some wines. There is some debate as to whether certain foods, such as honey, fit into a vegan diet.

5. Raw vegan/Raw food diet

A raw vegan diet consists of unprocessed vegan foods that have not been heated above 115 degrees Fahrenheit (46 degrees Celsius). “Raw foodists” believe that foods cooked above this temperature have lost a significant amount of their nutritional value and are harmful to the body.

6. Macrobiotic

The macrobiotic diet, revered by some for its healthy and healing qualities, includes unprocessed vegan foods, such as whole grains, fruits and vegetables, and allows the occasional consumption of fish. Sugar and refined oils are avoided. Perhaps the most unique qualifier of the macrobiotic diet is its emphasis on the consumption of Asian vegetables, such as daikon, and sea vegetables, such as seaweed.

I might add I find the use of the term "healing" in terms of any diet to be the mark of a crazy food fadist.

Quote:
3) Your references spout shit like B12 deficiency which is fixed by taking a friggin vitamin pill once a day/week. It hardly means a vegan diet can not be perfectly healthy if many vegans are so fucking stupid they don't make sure they receive vital nutrients.

B12 and Folic acid deficiencies are generally detectable only by blood test. As for taking vitamin pills that means a horse pill sized mutli-vitamin every day. What amuses me is thinking of all veggieheads actually researching nutrition and learning now to mix foods to get the proper mix of amino acids to produce human protein and all the other factors most people learn getting a two year degree in nutrition. Frankly I have never read a single veggie advocate give the least indication of knowing a thing about even the basics of nutrition.

Quote:
There's also a big difference between veganism and raw veganism, which is what the family in your little horror story was doing where the mother was such an irresponsible cunt she obviously made no effort to find credible information about how to provide a healthy diet for her kids. Do you see me pulling up stuff like how excessive meat eating increases risks of heart attacks, or some of those morbidly obese kids, and declaring that therefore all diets including meat are extremely dangerous? No you fucking don't because I don't need to rely on propaganda and confirmation bias.

Actually one eats beef daily for a week and gets a choleterol test. 1/3  of people will have high choleterol. The rest will be normal. Those who are normal have no heart risk from meat. The 1/3 should eat it only rarely or take statins. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

They will breed themselves. The difference is where and how they live from birth to death. Freedom from hunger and thirst, freedom from predators, basic medical care.

Medical care for the billions of animals produced every year? You have to realize what a joke that is, seriously. Not gonna bother delving deeper in factory farm conditions yet again, people can look it up themselves if they give a shit.

Far from a joke there is another whole self promotion industry complaining about the antibiotics they are fed so they do not waste energy fighting off diseases. In the US sheep, hogs, and cattle are innoculated against many diseases. It keeps vets in business. The chickens get it in their feed.

Let us not gloss over freedom from hunger, thirst and predators. It is a life some two billion humans do not enjoy in addition to a proportionately short life span relative to food animals.

Quote:
As for them breeding themselves, we have them locked in friggin cages. We can do whatever we want to em including preventing them from breeding.

I was referring to in the wild. They do their own breeding. We breed them. They breed themselves. Consider the torture in breeding season when they don't have hands to get themselves off. Is not suppressing that torture? Particularly when it prevents males from killing each other over mates or with our food animals, doing a Highlander for all the mates.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We be animals. In nature the rule is eat anything that doesn't eat you first.

Well then I guess you have no objection to me pummeling you to death with a stick if you look at me the wrong way since that's perfectly natural animal behaviour. What's that? That woudn't be cool? You mean you somehow only resort to these idiotic appeals to nature when it's an argument for YOU acting like an asshole. Shocking.

I have no objection to you trying. If you fail, end of discussion. If you succeed this is both a death penalty and a concealed carry state so there are three possible consequences of success. The law and social custom are decidedly against your proposed behavior.

Ok, you have just verified the acceptability of brutally assaulting people for no real reason.

I said the behavior in such matters is governed by law and social custom. Until a few centuries ago any nobility could do that to any peasant for the reason you gave which both law and custom would have upheld. As to today, I said you risk death by my hand, death by a bystander, death by lethal injection or life in prison. I fail to see how any of those options are indications of acceptability. Two of the four have you dead in the act, one has you dead in a few years and your best case is dying in prison.

What possible effect could my objection have upon your intended suicidal behavior?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Raise a child on veggie diet  and expect Child Protective Services to call it abuse. There are specific development deformities caused by a meat deficient diet that no amount of whole protein diets can prevent. In the good old days three years of breast feeding got infants over the hump until they had teeth and jaw strength to handle meat.

Absolutely massive fucking preposterous lie. How the fuck could people survive on a vegan diet for decades on end but somehow children have magical special nutritional needs that only meat can satisfy? Name me something vital in a human diet that meat is necessary for motherfucker, just one thing. Disgusting fear mongering propaganda.

 

Infants are not adults. Their needs are different. Beyond that when you talk about veggies you must specify which degree of whacko you are talking about. Fish eating and Ovo-lacto infants can survive is the rest is managed carefully and vitamin supplements are given. I of course choose the craziest of the crazy.

Animal fats are needed for infants nerves including the brain to develop which is why I said three years of breast feeding in the good old days was what got them through it. Which is why the fats in milk and egg yolks will do it. Fish without fat will not work.

So you're gonna assert that no child has ever grown up healthy on a vegan diet and somehow this information is not widely known? Sound like a conspiracy theory much? You know what they say about extraordinary claims.

I said INFANT not child. Can you not read?

But as to healthy that depends what you mean by healthy. In the 19th c. no one said the Japanese were unhealthy with their largely vegetarian and sea food diet. But after WWII when they adopted more of a western diet with pork and beef and lamb the average height increased six inches in two generations. It is still increasing on average but that is likely just the older dying off.

No diet in the world is going to get a population taller than its genetic potential but a fishy vegetarian diet cost the Japanese six inches on average. That is about the average height reduction found between hunter-gatherers and early Mesopotamian farmers whose diet became primarily grain which much less meat.

Those two items were very well known. One would expect a well read veggie to be fully familiar with them and not demand links. If one is not familiar I rest my case against veggies. And veggies cannot use google to confirm those items then veggie diets rot the brain.

Quote:
Quote:
BTW: How do you reconcile torturing and non-sensient as being a problem?

I don't know what you're talking about.

You sound like Romney.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...
Maybe we could change that.
    Knock yourself out Lee Harvey Oswald.

Knock yourself out Abe Lincoln. Oliver Cromwell. Madame LeFarge. Garibaldi. Lenin.

Call culture change culture wars is something that appeared in the last 30 years or so. I think Pat Buchanan was the first to use the term or at least popularized it. To his credit today he is trying to walk back from the violence the neo-cons are still trying to foment. Not exactly. Rather they are fomenting dissention in a form that has always in the past lead to violence.

Obama birthers are fine but in the past claims of a usurper king have always lead to violence when a real king comes along to claim the throne.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Manageri wrote:
.

.... why don't you explain to me why gorillas don't do the BBQ thing then despite their huge canines and why their diet consists almost entirely of plants (while the remaining few percent consists of insects, hardly something they need those teeth for).

 

 ...probably because in nature, teeth also evolved for use as weapons ?   For example, why does a herbivore such as a hippopotamus need teeth like this,    .....for eating plants ?

Yeah, that was my point. People claim the fact we have sharp canine teeth (which are pathetic in comparison to gorillas) somehow means eating red meat is a natural part of the human diet, which is obviously nonsense when other species who don't do that have similar tools.

Vastet wrote:
1-4) Right back at you with meat. Nothing unhealthy or bad in eating meat. And you don't need to pick up a hundred vitamin supplements to make up for the fact you aren't eating healthily.

As if only vegans ever use supplements. You do realize there's like, for example, added vitamin D in margarine (vegan and nonvegan)? Iodine in salt? You think these exist purely because of the vegan population? Here in Finland EVERYONE, regardless of diet, is advised to supplement vitamin D during the winter due to the tiny amount of direct sunlight so proper nutrition is in no way guaranteed by an omnivore diet alone. I'm not advocating veganism on the premise that it's healthier than the alternatives anyway, I'm an ethical vegan, so all I'm doing is responding to your claims of the supposed unhealthiness of it. I did not come here and claim all meat eaters are necessarily eating unhealthily (I'm aware many vegans claim a proper vegan diet is more healthy but I just don't really give a shit).

Quote:
People are far less likely to fuck up a balanced meal than dozens of vitamins. And grats on your new strawman. I never said it was necessarily unhealthy to eat vegan, I said it's healthiness is not what its cracked up to be.

People are likely to fuck up every diet, the only thing that changes is the specific potential health consequences.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Which be ye? Which be retarded?

I'm vegan, that's it. I don't have any desire or need to discuss whether all these other diets are healthy or not.

Quote:
I might add I find the use of the term "healing" in terms of any diet to be the mark of a crazy food fadist.

Yeah, and you won't catch me spouting any such hippie nonsense.

Quote:
Quote:
3) Your references spout shit like B12 deficiency which is fixed by taking a friggin vitamin pill once a day/week. It hardly means a vegan diet can not be perfectly healthy if many vegans are so fucking stupid they don't make sure they receive vital nutrients.

B12 and Folic acid deficiencies are generally detectable only by blood test. As for taking vitamin pills that means a horse pill sized mutli-vitamin every day.

Well I don't know what magical powers my pharmacist must have then exactly, but my vitamin-B pills are like the size of an M&M and contain like ten times the recommended daily dosage. The amount of B12 we need is in fact pretty fucking tiny, no matter how vital that small amount is.

Quote:
What amuses me is thinking of all veggieheads actually researching nutrition and learning now to mix foods to get the proper mix of amino acids to produce human protein and all the other factors most people learn getting a two year degree in nutrition. Frankly I have never read a single veggie advocate give the least indication of knowing a thing about even the basics of nutrition.

Oh mah godz the complexity, whole grain and certain vegetables and seeds and stuff. That takes two years to learn? I've never seen a single naysayer explain what nutrient is insufficiently available in a vegan diet or why like every health organization admits you can in fact be healthy on a proper vegan diet. Must be a government conspiracy.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Manageri wrote:
Medical care for the billions of animals produced every year? You have to realize what a joke that is, seriously.

Far from a joke there is another whole self promotion industry complaining about the antibiotics they are fed so they do not waste energy fighting off diseases. In the US sheep, hogs, and cattle are innoculated against many diseases. It keeps vets in business. The chickens get it in their feed.

Feeding them antibiotics is done so they don't like drop dead because that would reduce the farmer's profits. You can call that healthcare (and it is in a way) but the point is that's about all the "medical attention" they receive. I mean seriously, you have to be crazy to think in a world where we don't even provide proper care for people we somehow do so for the animals we consider nothing but food.

Quote:
Let us not gloss over freedom from hunger, thirst and predators. It is a life some two billion humans do not enjoy in addition to a proportionately short life span relative to food animals.

Yeah, slaves had all that too. Once again I invite people to look into how great their conditions are if they care, I could provide links but google's a click away and I'd just be accused of cherry picking again.

Quote:
Quote:
As for them breeding themselves, we have them locked in friggin cages. We can do whatever we want to em including preventing them from breeding.

I was referring to in the wild. They do their own breeding. We breed them. They breed themselves. Consider the torture in breeding season when they don't have hands to get themselves off. Is not suppressing that torture? Particularly when it prevents males from killing each other over mates or with our food animals, doing a Highlander for all the mates.

Well the modern farm animals would largely be fucked in the wild, and nowhere did I suggest releasing them into it, so I don't see how this is a response to something I've said.

Quote:
Quote:

Ok, you have just verified the acceptability of brutally assaulting people for no real reason.

I said the behavior in such matters is governed by law and social custom. Until a few centuries ago any nobility could do that to any peasant for the reason you gave which both law and custom would have upheld. As to today, I said you risk death by my hand, death by a bystander, death by lethal injection or life in prison. I fail to see how any of those options are indications of acceptability. Two of the four have you dead in the act, one has you dead in a few years and your best case is dying in prison. What possible effect could my objection have upon your intended suicidal behavior?

Blah blah law this, custom that, the subject is ethics. Is it or is it not ethically acceptable to beat someone with a stick for essentially no reason? Since we know that, deflections aside, you're not gonna claim that it is then I'm just gonna skip to the point of what this whole thing was about and declare your appeal to nature a moronic justification for eating meat.

Quote:
Infants are not adults. Their needs are different. Beyond that when you talk about veggies you must specify which degree of whacko you are talking about. Fish eating and Ovo-lacto infants can survive is the rest is managed carefully and vitamin supplements are given. I of course choose the craziest of the crazy.

Animal fats are needed for infants nerves including the brain to develop which is why I said three years of breast feeding in the good old days was what got them through it. Which is why the fats in milk and egg yolks will do it. Fish without fat will not work.

How about some evidence for any of this?

Quote:
Quote:
So you're gonna assert that no child has ever grown up healthy on a vegan diet and somehow this information is not widely known? Sound like a conspiracy theory much? You know what they say about extraordinary claims.

I said INFANT not child. Can you not read?

But as to healthy that depends what you mean by healthy.

There's nothing necessarily erroneous about referring to an infant as a child, what I meant was pretty obvious from the context. What's healthy? Just compare children (I'm including infants here again) on a vegan diet to those on a typical omnivore one. Maybe you could also try to explain why all these health organizations deem a proper vegan diet healthy in all stages of life if there's ample evidence, as you claim, that this is not so.

Quote:
In the 19th c. no one said the Japanese were unhealthy with their largely vegetarian and sea food diet. But after WWII when they adopted more of a western diet with pork and beef and lamb the average height increased six inches in two generations. It is still increasing on average but that is likely just the older dying off.

No diet in the world is going to get a population taller than its genetic potential but a fishy vegetarian diet cost the Japanese six inches on average. That is about the average height reduction found between hunter-gatherers and early Mesopotamian farmers whose diet became primarily grain which much less meat.

Not even gonna bother fact checking any of this because diets over a hundred years old have fuckall to do with modern ones.

Quote:
Those two items were very well known. One would expect a well read veggie to be fully familiar with them and not demand links. If one is not familiar I rest my case against veggies. And veggies cannot use google to confirm those items then veggie diets rot the brain.

Oh wow, so if I can come up with two random facts you haven't heard of then I win the argument? Brilliant. I'm vaguely familiar with the shift from hunter/gathering to agriculture and its health consequences but once again, the subject has little to do with modern diets.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3641
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...
Maybe we could change that.
    Knock yourself out Lee Harvey Oswald.

Knock yourself out Abe Lincoln. Oliver Cromwell. Madame LeFarge. Garibaldi. Lenin.

Call culture change culture wars is something that appeared in the last 30 years or so. I think Pat Buchanan was the first to use the term or at least popularized it. To his credit today he is trying to walk back from the violence the neo-cons are still trying to foment. Not exactly. Rather they are fomenting dissention in a form that has always in the past lead to violence.

Obama birthers are fine but in the past claims of a usurper king have always lead to violence when a real king comes along to claim the throne.

 

 

    It was your threatening comment "maybe we could change that" that set the tone for "violence"   

.....and I don't give a shit who coined the phrase "culture wars" or who "popularized" it.

 

 And although you can't actually see me doing it, I'm giving you the middle finger right now.    I'm sure a self-identified scholar like yourself knows that one digit gesture of contempt also has it's own unique history of how it came to be but I won't bore you with the details because no one gives a damn about that either.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...
Maybe we could change that.
    Knock yourself out Lee Harvey Oswald.

Knock yourself out Abe Lincoln. Oliver Cromwell. Madame LeFarge. Garibaldi. Lenin.

Call culture change culture wars is something that appeared in the last 30 years or so. I think Pat Buchanan was the first to use the term or at least popularized it. To his credit today he is trying to walk back from the violence the neo-cons are still trying to foment. Not exactly. Rather they are fomenting dissention in a form that has always in the past lead to violence.

Obama birthers are fine but in the past claims of a usurper king have always lead to violence when a real king comes along to claim the throne.

 

 

    It was your threatening comment "maybe we could change that" that set the tone for "violence"   

.....and I don't give a shit who coined the phrase "culture wars" or who "popularized" it.

 

 And although you can't actually see me doing it, I'm giving you the middle finger right now.    I'm sure a self-identified scholar like yourself knows that one digit gesture of contempt also has it's own unique history of how it came to be but I won't bore you with the details because no one gives a damn about that either.

Agreed.

This is simply a case of  a nut not realizing they are a nut. I think he and Noony should get married and have their own spawn of stupidity. Then maybe they can learn how to fly planes too.

"I hava cause" yea they do and we are hardly impressed with human stupidity. People like this are proof that evolution's goal isnt about producing rational thought. It only proves that humans fuck and produce more stupid humans.

Noony "Jews stole the land", forgetting that humans existed before Jews AND arabs.

Vegan, "Don't eat meat or else", (Note that any response that implies criminal acts will be reported to authorities)

Both of you need to take our narcissistic causes and shove them up your asses. Life was around before your parents fucked and the universe will continue long after our species goes extinct. "Poor me I hate reality I want a utopia I can project on the rest of the world"

Grow the fuck up!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Vegan, "Don't

Brian37 wrote:

Vegan, "Don't eat meat or else", (Note that any response that implies criminal acts will be reported to authorities)

Lol, yea "or else" I'll what, make another argument on the internet that you voluntarily came to read? How dare I!?


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:Brian37

Manageri wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Vegan, "Don't eat meat or else", (Note that any response that implies criminal acts will be reported to authorities)

Lol, yea "or else" I'll what, make another argument on the internet that you voluntarily came to read? How dare I!?

"Or else" make people who believe they need to eat meat to survive out as people who hate all animals and the planet (instead of just all the people on it except for you and your fellow anti-natalists). It's eerily similar to the theist's argument "you're an atheist because you hate God"

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:"Or else"

jcgadfly wrote:

"Or else" make people who believe they need to eat meat to survive out as people who hate all animals and the planet (instead of just all the people on it except for you and your fellow anti-natalists). It's eerily similar to the theist's argument "you're an atheist because you hate God"

Quote me saying one of those things just once, I dare you. What I have said is you're assholes. Whether you hate or love or are ambivalent towards animals is irrelevant. A wife beater can still love his wife despite the fact he's being a complete asshole and abusing her in an unacceptable manner. If you think you need to eat meat to survive then you're demonstrably wrong, and I'd call you ignorant instead of an asshole, but none of the people arguing with me here have made such a silly claim (except mousy about infants sorta).

You're welcome to argue that we do in fact need meat (if you wanna make an ass outta yourself) or that torturing animals for something you don't need is acceptable, but since you're eerily similar to a theist pussy who knows he doesn't have an argument and so he has to make baseless silly little drive-by accusations I won't hold my breath.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:jcgadfly

Manageri wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

"Or else" make people who believe they need to eat meat to survive out as people who hate all animals and the planet (instead of just all the people on it except for you and your fellow anti-natalists). It's eerily similar to the theist's argument "you're an atheist because you hate God"

Quote me saying one of those things just once, I dare you. What I have said is you're assholes. Whether you hate or love or are ambivalent towards animals is irrelevant. A wife beater can still love his wife despite the fact he's being a complete asshole and abusing her in an unacceptable manner. If you think you need to eat meat to survive then you're demonstrably wrong, and I'd call you ignorant instead of an asshole, but none of the people arguing with me here have made such a silly claim (except mousy about infants sorta).

You're welcome to argue that we do in fact need meat (if you wanna make an ass outta yourself) or that torturing animals for something you don't need is acceptable, but since you're eerily similar to a theist pussy who knows he doesn't have an argument and so he has to make baseless silly little drive-by accusations I won't hold my breath.

Let me guess - you'll want exact words instead of those that carry that meaning right?

and meanwhile I'll just laugh at the straw man you attributed to me (where I said we needed meat).

 For now:

"you're pretty damn directly ordering the torture of more animals when you buy meat and you know it."

" torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole."

Comparing eating meat to rape in "Men have always raped women, I do not see that part of our evolution ending anytime soon. Especially with people like you acting just as utopian and fundy as a believer."

Good thing you're the only non-asshole who NEVER uses loaded language. Is it really worth a vegan diet if you have to take enough supplements to make you rattle like a maraca when you move? Sounds like something's not working as well as you think it is.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


luca
atheist
Posts: 400
Joined: 2011-02-21
User is offlineOffline
...although I understand

Manageri wrote:
The fact meat eating was possibly important in the past does not make it vital today, and therefore torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole. Sorry meat eating cunts. Not.

That's a bit too generic... Not all meat comes from tortured animals, and maybe, I say maybe, there is someone who needs to eat meat. The problem is not eating meat itself, I think you should be more precise.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3349
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:iwbiek

Manageri wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
you, sir, have obviously never handled a cow, pig, chicken, rabbit, turkey, or any other kind of livestock in your life.  i bet your knowledge of farming comes mostly from inflammatory youtube videos.  why not spend a few months shoveling the shit of the animals you'd like to save, then make an informed judgment?  of course, it's easier to click away on a keyboard than go up to your elbows in bovine cunt trying to turn a calf the right way around.

you have no love for animals, only ideas.  i've vaccinated their asses, replaced their saltlicks, taken 45-minute showers to get their fuckin' afterbirth off me.  i've loved them.  so take your blonde dreadlocks, your skewed statistics, and your red, green, and yellow hackey-sack and fuck right off.

This is a truly amazing response. It's like if I was telling a school bully he shouldn't beat the other kids up and he replied with "well I spent 45 minutes getting his blood off my shirt so it's ok".

uh-huh.  so you've worked with how many farm animals?  and your school field trip to amish country doesn't count.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Let me guess

jcgadfly wrote:

Let me guess - you'll want exact words instead of those that carry that meaning right?

No, I want a quote of me either explicitly stating or just implying that meat eaters hate the planet or animals. You of course won't find one because one doesn't exist so I look forward to your next evasion.

Quote:
and meanwhile I'll just laugh at the straw man you attributed to me (where I said we needed meat).

Then wtf was the point of talking about people who believe we need meat when no one in the thread has made such an ignorant statement?

Quote:
"you're pretty damn directly ordering the torture of more animals when you buy meat and you know it."

" torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole."

Comparing eating meat to rape in "Men have always raped women, I do not see that part of our evolution ending anytime soon. Especially with people like you acting just as utopian and fundy as a believer."

Good thing you're the only non-asshole who NEVER uses loaded language. Is it really worth a vegan diet if you have to take enough supplements to make you rattle like a maraca when you move? Sounds like something's not working as well as you think it is.

You could have tried to unravel the connection between you buying meat and it's production (supply and demand and such). You could have explained the relevant ethical difference between torturing a cow and a human. You could have explained why a goddamn appeal to nature (I mean is there a more obvious and retarded fallacy) is somehow acceptable when it comes to eating meat but not when it comes to rape. Instead you just whined about my style of argumentation.

0/10. Better luck next time.


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:uh-huh.  so

iwbiek wrote:

uh-huh.  so you've worked with how many farm animals?  and your school field trip to amish country doesn't count.

How many jews have you personally gassed? NONE!? Then how the fuck can you condemn the nazis OMG HYPOCRITE ALERT.

You should just stop posting if this kind of drivel is the best you can do.

luca wrote:

That's a bit too generic... Not all meat comes from tortured animals, and maybe, I say maybe, there is someone who needs to eat meat. The problem is not eating meat itself, I think you should be more precise.

Most meat is produced in big ass factory farms, that's just how capitalism works, so the fact a tiny portion of it comes from somewhat better conditions is hardly a get out of jail free card. If someone has like 900 allergies or something and can only practically survive by eating meat then it's an entirely different argument than what applies to the average person.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3349
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote: How many

Manageri wrote:

 

How many jews have you personally gassed? NONE!? Then how the fuck can you condemn the nazis OMG HYPOCRITE ALERT.

You should just stop posting if this kind of drivel is the best you can do.

yeah, so big zero.  i figured. 

anyhow, there's one flaw in your reasoning: those jews were human, and that makes all the difference.  i think penn jillette said it best: "teller and i would kill every kitten in the world--with our bare hands--if it meant saving the life of one junky dying of AIDS."  all the doe-eyed calves in the world aren't worth the life of a single human.

i'm all for avoiding unnecessary suffering when it comes to using animals, which is exactly how i see them: useful.  i don't see any reason to give another species the same consideration as my own.  some consderation, maybe, but not the same.  i think we can observe this attitude in nature too.  now if you want to try to fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of metaphysically "higher" person, or whatever kind of subjective mysticism you guys go for, knock yourself out.  just leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Why doesn't it surprise me

Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd change your standards in the same sentence?

Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd score me the way you did for shoving your words back up your colon?

I said people believe they had the need to eat meant - you built the strawman saying that I said people needed to eat meat.

Then again, anything that doesn't involve death by uprooting or hacking things off at the stem is "torture" to you.

Could you taste the fear in the meat? What do the other emotions taste like? Can it be distilled and added to other items? (thanks 2 the ranting gryphon)

I don't mind vegetarians/vegans who have real reasons. I call myself a fiscal vegetarian because I can't afford to buy much meat.

It's the "I'm better than you are because I'm a death free person" asshats like you that get on mu nerves. That's the position I was arguing with you - your claim that you weren't being an asshole.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:anyhow, there's

iwbiek wrote:

anyhow, there's one flaw in your reasoning: those jews were human, and that makes all the difference.  i think penn jillette said it best: "teller and i would kill every kitten in the world--with our bare hands--if it meant saving the life of one junky dying of AIDS."  all the doe-eyed calves in the world aren't worth the life of a single human.

i'm all for avoiding unnecessary suffering when it comes to using animals, which is exactly how i see them: useful.  i don't see any reason to give another species the same consideration as my own.  some consderation, maybe, but not the same.  i think we can observe this attitude in nature too.  now if you want to try to fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of metaphysically "higher" person, or whatever kind of subjective mysticism you guys go for, knock yourself out.  just leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

There's one flaw in your reasoning, those humans were jews, and that makes all the difference. I think my great-great-grand father said it the best "I'd kill every last jew with my bare hands if it meant saving one magnificent finn from dying."

I'm all for avoiding unnecessary suffering when it comes to using jews, which is exactly how i see them: useful. I don't see any reason to give another race the same consideration as my own.  some consderation, maybe, but not the same.  i think we can observe this attitude in nature too.  now if you want to try to fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of metaphysically "higher" person, or whatever kind of subjective mysticism you guys go for, knock yourself out.  just leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

This is all you're doing, asserting that your species is worth special attention despite the fact you can't explain how human suffering feels any different than that of animals, just like racists can't do the same when they assert other races are worth less consideration. You are a bigoted fucking cunt and that's all there is to why you find what you do acceptable, it's that goddamn simple.


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Why doesn't

jcgadfly wrote:

Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd change your standards in the same sentence?

Which standard was this?

Quote:
Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd score me the way you did for shoving your words back up your colon?

Why doesn't it surprise me you're focusing all your effort on me instead of the subject of veganism?

Quote:
I said people believe they had the need to eat meant - you built the strawman saying that I said people needed to eat meat.

Ok.

Quote:
Then again, anything that doesn't involve death by uprooting or hacking things off at the stem is "torture" to you.

What were you just saying about strawmen? When I use the word torture I tend to give some context, like removing teeth without any kind of pain relief. If you wanna argue that some of those examples are not torturous then go ahead, but of course you don't actually argue facts, you just argue my character.

Quote:
Could you taste the fear in the meat? What do the other emotions taste like? Can it be distilled and added to other items? (thanks 2 the ranting gryphon)

I haven't mentioned fear once in the whole thread so lol at your strawmen again.

Quote:
I don't mind vegetarians/vegans who have real reasons. I call myself a fiscal vegetarian because I can't afford to buy much meat.

I don't mind non-jew gassers who have real reasons, I personally don't do it because I can't afford to rent the facilities.

The idea that you could actually mind someone not being an abuser is hi-fucking-larious btw.

Quote:
It's the "I'm better than you are because I'm a death free person" asshats like you that get on mu nerves. That's the position I was arguing with you - your claim that you weren't being an asshole.

I actually haven't mentioned the death of the animals as a reason for veganism a single time either but keep trying, maybe you'll manage to address something I've actually said one of these days.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3349
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote: This is all

Manageri wrote:

 

This is all you're doing, asserting that your species is worth special attention despite the fact you can't explain how human suffering feels any different than that of animals, just like racists can't do the same when they assert other races are worth less consideration. You are a bigoted fucking cunt and that's all there is to why you find what you do acceptable, it's that goddamn simple.

i don't think our species deserves special attention.  who is there to pay that attention?  i just think our species should consider our welfare first.  if a cure for AIDS is found because chimps die painfully in a lab, i consider that worth it.

and we're all bigots of a certain stripe.  that includes you, hoss.  i'm well aware my position isn't based on any sort of eternal, objective ethical truth.  neither is yours.  such a truth does not exist.  i consider my position the most pragmatic vis-a-vis the welfare of my species, which is my main criterion when taking any position.  obviously, your criteria are different.  feel free to shove 'em up your ass.  it's that goddamn simple.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:iwbiek

Manageri wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

anyhow, there's one flaw in your reasoning: those jews were human, and that makes all the difference.  i think penn jillette said it best: "teller and i would kill every kitten in the world--with our bare hands--if it meant saving the life of one junky dying of AIDS."  all the doe-eyed calves in the world aren't worth the life of a single human.

i'm all for avoiding unnecessary suffering when it comes to using animals, which is exactly how i see them: useful.  i don't see any reason to give another species the same consideration as my own.  some consderation, maybe, but not the same.  i think we can observe this attitude in nature too.  now if you want to try to fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of metaphysically "higher" person, or whatever kind of subjective mysticism you guys go for, knock yourself out.  just leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

There's one flaw in your reasoning, those humans were jews, and that makes all the difference. I think my great-great-grand father said it the best "I'd kill every last jew with my bare hands if it meant saving one magnificent finn from dying."

I'm all for avoiding unnecessary suffering when it comes to using jews, which is exactly how i see them: useful. I don't see any reason to give another race the same consideration as my own.  some consderation, maybe, but not the same.  i think we can observe this attitude in nature too.  now if you want to try to fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of metaphysically "higher" person, or whatever kind of subjective mysticism you guys go for, knock yourself out.  just leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

This is all you're doing, asserting that your species is worth special attention despite the fact you can't explain how human suffering feels any different than that of animals, just like racists can't do the same when they assert other races are worth less consideration. You are a bigoted fucking cunt and that's all there is to why you find what you do acceptable, it's that goddamn simple.

You say while asserting the exact same dominace over plants that you are decrying here. And all because plants don't yelp when you hack into them or uroot them.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:i don't think

iwbiek wrote:

i don't think our species deserves special attention.  who is there to pay that attention?  i just think our species should consider our welfare first.  if a cure for AIDS is found because chimps die painfully in a lab, i consider that worth it.

I just think our race should consider our welfare first.  if a cure for AIDS is found because jews die painfully in a lab, i consider that worth it.

You are doing nothing different from racists so please explain to me what standard you use to condemn racists that can't be applied to speciecism with the exact same reasoning.

Quote:
and we're all bigots of a certain stripe.  that includes you, hoss.

I'm aware that certain types of sexist, racist etc behaviours are part of our innate psychology. The difference is I don't celebrate it or defend it ethically like you assholes.

Quote:
i'm well aware my position isn't based on any sort of eternal, objective ethical truth.  neither is yours.  such a truth does not exist.  i consider my position the most pragmatic vis-a-vis the welfare of my species, which is my main criterion when taking any position.  obviously, your criteria are different.  feel free to shove 'em up your ass.  it's that goddamn simple.

Yes, you're fine with being a contradictory bigot and that's the end of your ethical thought process on the subject, bravo.

It really is funny you people don't realize your silly "there's no truth" objection can be used for anything. Like for example those threads about christians getting their kids killed by denying them medical care where you condemn what they do, but really all those people would have to do to shut you up, according to your own standards, is show up and say "there's no ethical truth so fuck you guys". Amazing how you only accept that as a valid move when it's someone criticizing your actions, aint it?


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:iwbiek

Manageri wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i don't think our species deserves special attention.  who is there to pay that attention?  i just think our species should consider our welfare first.  if a cure for AIDS is found because chimps die painfully in a lab, i consider that worth it.

I just think our race should consider our welfare first.  if a cure for AIDS is found because jews die painfully in a lab, i consider that worth it.

You are doing nothing different from racists so please explain to me what standard you use to condemn racists that can't be applied to speciecism with the exact same reasoning.

Quote:
and we're all bigots of a certain stripe.  that includes you, hoss.

I'm aware that certain types of sexist, racist etc behaviours are part of our innate psychology. The difference is I don't celebrate it or defend it ethically like you assholes.

Quote:
i'm well aware my position isn't based on any sort of eternal, objective ethical truth.  neither is yours.  such a truth does not exist.  i consider my position the most pragmatic vis-a-vis the welfare of my species, which is my main criterion when taking any position.  obviously, your criteria are different.  feel free to shove 'em up your ass.  it's that goddamn simple.

Yes, you're fine with being a contradictory bigot and that's the end of your ethical thought process on the subject, bravo.

It really is funny you people don't realize your silly "there's no truth" objection can be used for anything. Like for example those threads about christians getting their kids killed by denying them medical care where you condemn what they do, but really all those people would have to do to shut you up, according to your own standards, is show up and say "there's no ethical truth so fuck you guys". Amazing how you only accept that as a valid move when it's someone criticizing your actions, aint it?

The best shot you can take is that he's just like you, eh?

Maybe the veggies are your God - you're using all the theist's tricks.

But hey keep owning yourself - I'll take the laughs.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:You say while

jcgadfly wrote:

You say while asserting the exact same dominace over plants that you are decrying here. And all because plants don't yelp when you hack into them or uroot them.

I know there's some relatively big words here but if you read it a few times you should understand.

Jew - sentient. Plant - not sentient. Jew can feel pain. Plant can't feel pain.

If we have to perform surgery on a jew we have a problem, since cutting into him would cause him suffering. That is why before we operate on him we choose to place him under anesthesia to eliminate that suffering. A plant is never at risk of suffering as it is not sentient and therefore hacking away at it is perfectly acceptable.

This is how you point out RELEVANT ethical differences. Now how about you do the same regarding ripping off human and pig teeth that can't easily be adapted to comparing ripping off white and black people's teeth. Something tells me we won't be seeing that happen.

And since you fuckers can't read I suppose I have to once again point out that the idiocy of the subject aside, potential plant suffering is not even an argument against veganism when meat eaters are responsible for the death of vastly more plants in the form of animal feed, so fuck me sideways can we please move on from this goddamn doubly idiotic mush already.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:jcgadfly

Manageri wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

You say while asserting the exact same dominace over plants that you are decrying here. And all because plants don't yelp when you hack into them or uroot them.

I know there's some relatively big words here but if you read it a few times you should understand.

Jew - sentient. Plant - not sentient. Jew can feel pain. Plant can't feel pain.

If we have to perform surgery on a jew we have a problem, since cutting into him would cause him suffering. That is why before we operate on him we choose to place him under anesthesia to eliminate that suffering. A plant is never at risk of suffering as it is not sentient and therefore hacking away at it is perfectly acceptable.

This is how you point out RELEVANT ethical differences. Now how about you do the same regarding ripping off human and pig teeth that can't easily be adapted to comparing ripping off white and black people's teeth. Something tells me we won't be seeing that happen.

And since you fuckers can't read I suppose I have to once again point out that the idiocy of the subject aside, potential plant suffering is not even an argument against veganism when meat eaters are responsible for the death of vastly more plants in the form of animal feed, so fuck me sideways can we please move on from this goddamn doubly idiotic mush already.

I'd ask you to read this but I'm fairly sure your hands are over your eyes.

Plants can't "feel pain"  - unsubstantiated assertion. Studies show both yes and no.  We do know that they are aware when they are damaged so we're back to "It doesn't scream when I cut into it so it must not feel pain" bullshit you  love to spread.

Eating meat is not the same as killing Jews, raping women or any of the other things you want to equate it to because you want to feel superior. I really wish you'd start bringing up relevant differences, pissant. I'm getting old waiting.

I'd love to move on from this mush but you keep bringing up your bullshit.

Do animals eat a lot of plants? Yes. Is there a return on that investment? Yes - they're called meat, milk, fertilizer. Is there return on humans eating plants? Not really unless you use your excreta as fertilizer.

Please stop trying to show how much more enlightened you are compared to the rest of us. You're handing us your ass.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Plants can't

jcgadfly wrote:

Plants can't "feel pain"  - unsubstantiated assertion. Studies show both yes and no.  We do know that they are aware when they are damaged so we're back to "It doesn't scream when I cut into it so it must not feel pain" bullshit you  love to spread.

They are reflexive to stimuli (and we hardly needed studies for that) which is not in any way whatsoever proof of sentience. You will not be able to provide one fucking example of something a plant does that cannot be explained by entirely nonsentient chemistry. You're doing nothing here but playing the "you can't prove it doesn't exist" card and if I have to explain why that's bullshit to an atheist then you really do fail extra hard.

Quote:
Eating meat is not the same as killing Jews, raping women or any of the other things you want to equate it to because you want to feel superior. I really wish you'd start bringing up relevant differences, pissant. I'm getting old waiting.

You mean like how you pointed out the relevant differences between pulling out human and pig teeth? Oh wait, now that I think about it, you bailed like a little bitch so fuck you and your requests until you start addressing mine. I've explained why I make the comparisons I do and you pussies are afraid to respond to those points directly because you know your inconsistency will be glaring.

Quote:
Do animals eat a lot of plants? Yes. Is there a return on that investment? Yes - they're called meat, milk, fertilizer. Is there return on humans eating plants? Not really unless you use your excreta as fertilizer.

This is idiotic, you're using plant welfare as an argument against vegans who argue for animal welfare, and somehow it's then ok according to you to impose manyfold more suffering on plants with your meat diet because that way you also then get to impose suffering on the animals you eat. I mean wtf. How do you end up justifying meat eating if vegans end up imposing X amount of suffering on plants while you impose that same suffering AND more plant suffering by feeding the animals AND the suffring of the animals? Because cows give you some fertilizer that you can then use to impose more needless suffering? Amazing train of nonlogic.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3349
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:You are doing

Manageri wrote:

You are doing nothing different from racists so please explain to me what standard you use to condemn racists that can't be applied to speciecism with the exact same reasoning.

i have explained it.  numerous times.  open your fucking eyes.  someone harms a human?  fuck 'em.  someone harms an animal?  well, why did they do it?  ok, fuck 'em, or ok, i can see the necessity there.  that concise enough?

Manageri wrote:

It really is funny you people don't realize your silly "there's no truth" objection can be used for anything.

are you fucking retarded?  i have clearly expressed that position COUNTLESS times in this forum.  go read up on my positions before you strawman me, dickwad. 

i have always said that my positions are purely PRAGMATIC based upon my own criterion of what is best for the survival and quality of life for humanity.  there is nothing universalist about that position.  there is nothing "inherently" wrong with rape, child neglect, genocide, etc.  it's just that history shows that those things can and have majorly fucked up our species physically and psychologically on a massive level.  therefore, i am opposed to them.

Manageri wrote:

Like for example those threads about christians getting their kids killed by denying them medical care where you condemn what they do, but really all those people would have to do to shut you up, according to your own standards, is show up and say "there's no ethical truth so fuck you guys". Amazing how you only accept that as a valid move when it's someone criticizing your actions, aint it?

i don't expect to shut you up.  i don't expect a fucking thing from you, except to die one day.  honestly, i'm wondering why you're still talking to me.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Manageri wrote:jcgadfly

Manageri wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Plants can't "feel pain"  - unsubstantiated assertion. Studies show both yes and no.  We do know that they are aware when they are damaged so we're back to "It doesn't scream when I cut into it so it must not feel pain" bullshit you  love to spread.

They are reflexive to stimuli (and we hardly needed studies for that) which is not in any way whatsoever proof of sentience. You will not be able to provide one fucking example of something a plant does that cannot be explained by entirely nonsentient chemistry. You're doing nothing here but playing the "you can't prove it doesn't exist" card and if I have to explain why that's bullshit to an atheist then you really do fail extra hard.

Quote:
Eating meat is not the same as killing Jews, raping women or any of the other things you want to equate it to because you want to feel superior. I really wish you'd start bringing up relevant differences, pissant. I'm getting old waiting.

You mean like how you pointed out the relevant differences between pulling out human and pig teeth? Oh wait, now that I think about it, you bailed like a little bitch so fuck you and your requests until you start addressing mine. I've explained why I make the comparisons I do and you pussies are afraid to respond to those points directly because you know your inconsistency will be glaring.

Quote:
Do animals eat a lot of plants? Yes. Is there a return on that investment? Yes - they're called meat, milk, fertilizer. Is there return on humans eating plants? Not really unless you use your excreta as fertilizer.

This is idiotic, you're using plant welfare as an argument against vegans who argue for animal welfare, and somehow it's then ok according to you to impose manyfold more suffering on plants with your meat diet because that way you also then get to impose suffering on the animals you eat. I mean wtf. How do you end up justifying meat eating if vegans end up imposing X amount of suffering on plants while you impose that same suffering AND more plant suffering by feeding the animals AND the suffring of the animals? Because cows give you some fertilizer that you can then use to impose more needless suffering? Amazing train of nonlogic.

Again, you go back to the "it doesn't yelp when I cut it so..." argument. Get off it already.

I didn't discuss it (the tooth pulling) because it means fuck all to the subject being discussed. You know that - that's why you threw that red herring out there.

And there you go with the suffering claims that you haven't proved - does your shit have no end? You are a hypocrite and have been called on it repeatedly.

Get over yourself.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:Manageri

iwbiek wrote:

Manageri wrote:
You are doing nothing different from racists so please explain to me what standard you use to condemn racists that can't be applied to speciecism with the exact same reasoning.

i have explained it.  numerous times.  open your fucking eyes.  someone harms a human?  fuck 'em.  someone harms an animal?  well, why did they do it?  ok, fuck 'em, or ok, i can see the necessity there.  that concise enough?

Yeah, you've "explained" you don't care about hurting animals as much, just like racists have "explained" they don't care about hurting whatever race they don't like as much. What you haven't done is explain why these should be viewed as ethically different, not that I expect you to since they aren't (in any significant way).

As for "necessity", you're welcome to argue why meat eating is so necessary that it justifies torturing animals. You would not cut off random people's teeth for a few month's supply of yummy bacon and call that necessary with a straight face so the only thing we're left with again is that you're a bigot in exactly the same way, ethically speaking, as a racist. Just fucking admit it and we don't need to discuss anything anymore.

jcgadfly wrote:
Again, you go back to the "it doesn't yelp when I cut it so..." argument. Get off it already.

Yeah, I'm "back" to the "if it has no welfare then how the fuck do you affect it in an ethically relevant manner" argument, the same one you accept for everything else in the universe except plants in this context because you mistakenly thought that would somehow work as an argument against veganism, when it in fact just bolsters the case for it, so megalol@u.

Quote:
I didn't discuss it (the tooth pulling) because it means fuck all to the subject being discussed. You know that - that's why you threw that red herring out there.

Wow, cutting off teeth without pain relief is not relevant to the subject of how to treat an animal ethically? Or what the fuck do you think we're discussing here?

Quote:
And there you go with the suffering claims that you haven't proved - does your shit have no end? You are a hypocrite and have been called on it repeatedly.

Get over yourself.

What unclaimed proof, that animals are treated badly in factory farms? This is hardly a controversial claim (other than the severity of the abuse). I can give you links but again, why would I bother when you can use google just as easily and you'd just accuse me of cherry picking.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10634
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"his is all you're doing,

"his is all you're doing, asserting that your species is worth special attention despite the fact you can't explain how human suffering feels any different than that of animals, just like racists can't do the same when they assert other races are worth less consideration. You are a bigoted fucking cunt and that's all there is to why you find what you do acceptable, it's that goddamn simple."

Hypocrite alert! You're a bigot and a racist yourself, so if you think calling others that means anything at all, think again.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Manageri
atheist
Manageri's picture
Posts: 392
Joined: 2009-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote: Hypocrite

Vastet wrote:
Hypocrite alert! You're a bigot and a racist yourself, so if you think calling others that means anything at all, think again.

Yes, I'm bigoted towards bigots, just like I think that if you kidnap someone and lock them in your basement then the state has the right to lock you in a prison, I admit it. If you don't impose on the imposing assholes then you kinda impose on their victims by allowing the assholery to continue. Inaction is, as a practical fact, just another form of action. That's just how reality works.

With that said, your argument is fucking retarded anyway since it really wouldn't matter if I was sacrificing a pig to satan in a brutal manner as we speak, that would not impact my arguments in any way for the same reason that if a child molester calls rape wrong, you would not then assume that rape is just fine just because that particular person making the argument is a hypocrite.

Double fail again, congratulations.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10634
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"Yes, I'm bigoted towards

"Yes, I'm bigoted towards bigots"

And plants. And humans. And the environment.

Keep failing, terrorist scum.

Funny fact:
The people the terrorist refers to as bigots are in fact quite the opposite. They eat both plants and animals, discriminating against neither.
Whereas the terrorist is truly a bigot who discriminates against plants and people in favour of animals for which he cannot, and has yet to even try to, prove suffer.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
This one?

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

More recently there is a book which I cannot remember the title of nor find in my collection on cooking being the most important factor for a whole host of reasons. Among them, less time eating and both more available nutrition and and less energy needed for digestion. Not only more available nutrition but less energy spent digesting it.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/06/invention-of-cooking-drove-evolution-of-the-human-species-new-book-argues/

http://img2.tapuz.co.il/forums/1_140989346.pdf

 

 


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Which be ye? Which be retarded?

I'm vegan, that's it. I don't have any desire or need to discuss whether all these other diets are healthy or not.

Does that response mean you are this type?

4. Vegan

Vegans do not eat meat of any kind and also do not eat eggs, dairy products, or processed foods containing these or other animal-derived ingredients such as gelatin. Many vegans also refrain from eating foods that are made using animal products that may not contain animal products in the finished process, such as sugar and some wines. There is some debate as to whether certain foods, such as honey, fit into a vegan diet.

It is not my fault all kinds of people call themselves veggies. As there are so many using the same generic term it will be easier to converse with you knowing exactly which type I am talking to.

Quote:
Quote:
I might add I find the use of the term "healing" in terms of any diet to be the mark of a crazy food fadist.

Yeah, and you won't catch me spouting any such hippie nonsense.

How would I know as you are spouting veggie nonsense.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
3) Your references spout shit like B12 deficiency which is fixed by taking a friggin vitamin pill once a day/week. It hardly means a vegan diet can not be perfectly healthy if many vegans are so fucking stupid they don't make sure they receive vital nutrients.

B12 and Folic acid deficiencies are generally detectable only by blood test. As for taking vitamin pills that means a horse pill sized mutli-vitamin every day.

Well I don't know what magical powers my pharmacist must have then exactly, but my vitamin-B pills are like the size of an M&M and contain like ten times the recommended daily dosage. The amount of B12 we need is in fact pretty fucking tiny, no matter how vital that small amount is.

I left out the qualifier multi-vitamin to the horse pill reference. But the issue of B12 is that it is an animal product and if you are a type 4 veggie you do not eat B12.

Quote:
Quote:
What amuses me is thinking of all veggieheads actually researching nutrition and learning now to mix foods to get the proper mix of amino acids to produce human protein and all the other factors most people learn getting a two year degree in nutrition. Frankly I have never read a single veggie advocate give the least indication of knowing a thing about even the basics of nutrition.

Oh mah godz the complexity, whole grain and certain vegetables and seeds and stuff. That takes two years to learn? I've never seen a single naysayer explain what nutrient is insufficiently available in a vegan diet or why like every health organization admits you can in fact be healthy on a proper vegan diet. Must be a government conspiracy.

I only point it out in that I have never come across a veggie source giving the slightest hint that there is an issue of whole protein. I have seen plenty of individual dishes but no suggestion whatsoever that a proper amino acid mix must be consumed in the same meal. Type 4 veggies like you without dairy have only nuts, grains and legumes for the same meal serving. You don't have the cheese, milk and eggs that save most veggies from obvious deficiencies.

You keep talking about specific nutrients. I am talking amino acids to make human proteins. Nor am I saying it is impossible to have a healthy veggie diet. It is possible for any diet to be deficient.

Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Manageri wrote:
Medical care for the billions of animals produced every year? You have to realize what a joke that is, seriously.

Far from a joke there is another whole self promotion industry complaining about the antibiotics they are fed so they do not waste energy fighting off diseases. In the US sheep, hogs, and cattle are innoculated against many diseases. It keeps vets in business. The chickens get it in their feed.

Feeding them antibiotics is done so they don't like drop dead because that would reduce the farmer's profits. You can call that healthcare (and it is in a way) but the point is that's about all the "medical attention" they receive. I mean seriously, you have to be crazy to think in a world where we don't even provide proper care for people we somehow do so for the animals we consider nothing but food.

Antibiotics do provide that medical care in preventing disease regardless of the reason given. Motive does not change fact. And you given this imputation of motives to ignore the individual medical care given to sheep, hogs and cattle. That gives me three out of four. Motive does not change fact. The interests of the farmers and the animals coincide.

Quote:
Quote:
Let us not gloss over freedom from hunger, thirst and predators. It is a life some two billion humans do not enjoy in addition to a proportionately short life span relative to food animals.

Yeah, slaves had all that too. Once again I invite people to look into how great their conditions are if they care, I could provide links but google's a click away and I'd just be accused of cherry picking again.

Slavery is not a trump card. Freedom from hunger, thirst and predators are no mean freedoms. Rather slavery does make the case that what is good enough for humans for all but the last 200 years can't be all that bad. As the only choice animals have, were they able to make choices, would be thirst, hunger and predators it is nonsense to attempt to anthropomorphize the discussion.

If you want to show animal "suffering" I can match you link for link with pictures of kids with big bellies in dusty countries which lack modern agricultural methods. There is no species with a lock on "suffering" nor on what causes it. There is even speculation that even pre-humans have been helping grazing animals for millions of years by burning scrub land decreasing food sources for browsers and increasing them for grazers. Considering the wild ancestor of cattle no longer exists cattle themselves owe their existence to humans. Otherwise they would gone extinct thousands of years ago. We own them.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for them breeding themselves, we have them locked in friggin cages. We can do whatever we want to em including preventing them from breeding.

I was referring to in the wild. They do their own breeding. We breed them. They breed themselves. Consider the torture in breeding season when they don't have hands to get themselves off. Is not suppressing that torture? Particularly when it prevents males from killing each other over mates or with our food animals, doing a Highlander for all the mates.

Well the modern farm animals would largely be fucked in the wild, and nowhere did I suggest releasing them into it, so I don't see how this is a response to something I've said.

So what is your issue with allowing them to breed? Do you miss the Highlander method of selecting the dominant male? Or do you object to artificial insemination?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Ok, you have just verified the acceptability of brutally assaulting people for no real reason.

I said the behavior in such matters is governed by law and social custom. Until a few centuries ago any nobility could do that to any peasant for the reason you gave which both law and custom would have upheld. As to today, I said you risk death by my hand, death by a bystander, death by lethal injection or life in prison. I fail to see how any of those options are indications of acceptability. Two of the four have you dead in the act, one has you dead in a few years and your best case is dying in prison. What possible effect could my objection have upon your intended suicidal behavior?

Blah blah law this, custom that, the subject is ethics. Is it or is it not ethically acceptable to beat someone with a stick for essentially no reason? Since we know that, deflections aside, you're not gonna claim that it is then I'm just gonna skip to the point of what this whole thing was about and declare your appeal to nature a moronic justification for eating meat.

Ethics is a late invention compared to law and social custom. If your grasp of ethics is at a level where you can only apply it to physical assault you are going to love the second lecture in Ethics 101. Or it may scare you off to learn it is much harder than such trivial examples.

I did not appeal to nature in regard to eating meat. Since you sidewise asked, it is available and it tastes good and it does not eat me first. Beyond plants life eats life. That is what this world is like. I did not make it despite my occassional pretensions. Tonight I produced a nicely browned butt end pork shoulder. Tomorrow I am going to turn a half pound of it into BBQed pulled pork with a garlic-tomato sauce I will half-way make from scratch. And I'll be saving some of the fat to make up fried rice because I ran out of bacon fat.

That is a hell of a lot easier and better tasting than trying to make acorn squash and rice taste like meat. And some day veggies might realize squash is a fruit and treat it as such.

Quote:
Quote:
Infants are not adults. Their needs are different. Beyond that when you talk about veggies you must specify which degree of whacko you are talking about. Fish eating and Ovo-lacto infants can survive is the rest is managed carefully and vitamin supplements are given. I of course choose the craziest of the crazy.

Animal fats are needed for infants nerves including the brain to develop which is why I said three years of breast feeding in the good old days was what got them through it. Which is why the fats in milk and egg yolks will do it. Fish without fat will not work.

How about some evidence for any of this?

It is covered during those two years of community college studies on nutrition which you know all about because veggies are infused with such knowledge. Why do you, as a veggie, ask when you know the answer?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So you're gonna assert that no child has ever grown up healthy on a vegan diet and somehow this information is not widely known? Sound like a conspiracy theory much? You know what they say about extraordinary claims.

I said INFANT not child. Can you not read?

But as to healthy that depends what you mean by healthy.

There's nothing necessarily erroneous about referring to an infant as a child,

There is in this case. In any other species human infants would be premature births. Have you never notices that stuff that comes out of their anus does not smell like what comes out of children and older? It even has its own name which you can google. There metabolism is different. Their bodies are different. They can breath and swallow at the same time. Their brains are tripling in size before they can be called children.

Quote:
what I meant was pretty obvious from the context. What's healthy? Just compare children (I'm including infants here again) on a vegan diet to those on a typical omnivore one. Maybe you could also try to explain why all these health organizations deem a proper vegan diet healthy in all stages of life if there's ample evidence, as you claim, that this is not so.

Considering "vegan" can mean anything from essentially raw food only to occasional meat eating claiming "proper vegan diet" is meaningless. Take for example yourself as a type 4 Vegan, no animal products of any kind. That eliminating breast feeding. It eliminates enslaving the mother to the food needs of the infant. An ethical infant should starve rather than do that.

Taking tongue out of cheek because tongue is meat and eating one's self is unethical all your claims of "vegan is good" are meaningless without defining what you mean by vegan. You have specifically declined to do that. That is bullshit.

Quote:
Quote:
In the 19th c. no one said the Japanese were unhealthy with their largely vegetarian and sea food diet. But after WWII when they adopted more of a western diet with pork and beef and lamb the average height increased six inches in two generations. It is still increasing on average but that is likely just the older dying off.

No diet in the world is going to get a population taller than its genetic potential but a fishy vegetarian diet cost the Japanese six inches on average. That is about the average height reduction found between hunter-gatherers and early Mesopotamian farmers whose diet became primarily grain which much less meat.

Not even gonna bother fact checking any of this because diets over a hundred years old have fuckall to do with modern ones.

The difference is the 100 year old Japanese diet was nearly EXACTLY one of they many kinds of veggie diets you want to lump all under a single term vegan despite their being radically different. Yet you will mix the facts of one type with all of them. One has to be rather a dunderhead to mix occassional meat with macrobiotic and claim, because they are both "vegan" that they are equal for all ages from infant to aged with oesteoporosis.

Quote:
Quote:
Those two items were very well known. One would expect a well read veggie to be fully familiar with them and not demand links. If one is not familiar I rest my case against veggies. And veggies cannot use google to confirm those items then veggie diets rot the brain.

Oh wow, so if I can come up with two random facts you haven't heard of then I win the argument? Brilliant. I'm vaguely familiar with the shift from hunter/gathering to agriculture and its health consequences but once again, the subject has little to do with modern diets.

It is not a matter of having heard of them. It is a matter of them being facts. Modernity has nothing to do with the facts of a macrobiotic diet. It is the same regardless of when it was eaten.

You appear to be trying to foist an incredible idea that the same dietary elements or restrictions eaten today are different and "better" than if eaten a century ago. Rice and wheat and whatever have been the same for millenia. Calling it ancient or modern does not change the nutritional value of the foods consumed.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...
Maybe we could change that.
    Knock yourself out Lee Harvey Oswald.

Knock yourself out Abe Lincoln. Oliver Cromwell. Madame LeFarge. Garibaldi. Lenin.

Call culture change culture wars is something that appeared in the last 30 years or so. I think Pat Buchanan was the first to use the term or at least popularized it. To his credit today he is trying to walk back from the violence the neo-cons are still trying to foment. Not exactly. Rather they are fomenting dissention in a form that has always in the past lead to violence.

Obama birthers are fine but in the past claims of a usurper king have always lead to violence when a real king comes along to claim the throne.

 

 

    It was your threatening comment "maybe we could change that" that set the tone for "violence"   

.....and I don't give a shit who coined the phrase "culture wars" or who "popularized" it.

 

 And although you can't actually see me doing it, I'm giving you the middle finger right now.    I'm sure a self-identified scholar like yourself knows that one digit gesture of contempt also has it's own unique history of how it came to be but I won't bore you with the details because no one gives a damn about that either.

What I thought was amusing and obviously did not produce a sufficiently humorout response to highlight was the idea the culture wars are bloodless.

To remind you, my only claim to being a scholar is sarcastic in reciting I was a National Merit Scholar in high school. My point in doing that is that the appelation scholar is meaningless.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Brian37 wrote:
Noony "Jews stole the land", forgetting that humans existed before Jews AND arabs.

And you keep objecting to my recitation of the absentee owner laws of Israel. Why?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Let me guess - you'll want exact words instead of those that carry that meaning right?

No, I want a quote of me either explicitly stating or just implying that meat eaters hate the planet or animals. You of course won't find one because one doesn't exist so I look forward to your next evasion.

I admit you did not impute motives but were you suggesting the torture is done for pleasure? What motive do you impute to torture?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Manageri wrote:
Most meat is produced in big ass factory farms, that's just how capitalism works, so the fact a tiny portion of it comes from somewhat better conditions is hardly a get out of jail free card. If someone has like 900 allergies or something and can only practically survive by eating meat then it's an entirely different argument than what applies to the average person.

There must be quite a demand for industrial strength torturers. Or is it automated?

Consider the other side. That being all the animals have ever known they are like people living in cities, never knowing the thrill of wandering around the countryside in small family groups living off of the land. Neither knows any better so their philosophies of life are what they are.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

x wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

More recently there is a book which I cannot remember the title of nor find in my collection on cooking being the most important factor for a whole host of reasons. Among them, less time eating and both more available nutrition and and less energy needed for digestion. Not only more available nutrition but less energy spent digesting it.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/06/invention-of-cooking-drove-evolution-of-the-human-species-new-book-argues/

http://img2.tapuz.co.il/forums/1_140989346.pdf

Yes. An excellant read and a very well made case. It is so well made I think I might have overlooked something and it might be in some way exaggerated. One of the clinchers is it does identify a universal human trait which is supposedly non-existent. Men collect meat, women the veggies and do the cooking for their men. The men determine with whom all the food is shared. It is a universal paradigm related to cooking and indicating it is part of human nature because of evolution. It is a thing that makes us human.

It is very worth your time and you might search thepiratebay if feeling broke this week.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5100
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Not sure using

Manageri wrote:

The fact meat eating was possibly important in the past does not make it vital today, and therefore torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole. Sorry meat eating cunts. Not.

 

girly parts as the ultimate insult really works too well for me. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck