Meat eating might have made us human, sorry peta/vegetarians. Not.

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Meat eating might have made us human, sorry peta/vegetarians. Not.

Anthropologist Finds Evidence of Hominin Meat Eating 1.5 Million Years Ago: Eating Meat May Have 'Made Us Human'
ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2012) — A skull fragment unearthed by anthropologists in Tanzania shows that our ancient ancestors were eating meat at least 1.5 million years ago, shedding new light into the evolution of human physiology and brain development.

"Meat eating has always been considered one of the things that made us human, with the protein contributing to the growth of our brains," said Charles Musiba, Ph.D., associate professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado Denver, who helped make the discovery. "Our work shows that 1.5 million years ago we were not opportunistic meat eaters, we were actively hunting and eating meat."


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Vastet wrote:@ Beyond You're

Vastet wrote:
@ Beyond You're the one pulling shit out of his ass. Grazing land is never exhausted, while soy exhausts the land within a few crops.

Lol, yet the farmers keep planting beans and corn on the same land every single year. How do they do it? Magic! Crop rotation and fertilization are not new practices...

 

Vastet wrote:

So it really doesn't matter if grazing practices take up 5 times the space when the land can be used indefinitely, the feed costs absolutely nothing more than vitamin supplement, and the alternative is unused land incapable of growing a single bean within 2 - 5 years.

Lol

 

Vastet wrote:

 You're also completely off on oil. Palm oil is literally 5 times more efficient a product, using far less space and providing far more oil per volume. The use of soy for oil is yet another pointless and flawed practice.

I never said what oil I thought was better, I was pointing out that one of the largest uses of soybeans is for the oil in response to your absurd statement that soybeans are a crop that "for the most part only vegans consume". If you want to use palm oil instead of soybean oil I couldn't care less. Personally, I prefer lard, coconut oil, olive oil, sesame oil, corn oil or peanut oil depending on the application.   


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Vastet wrote:LOL @

Vastet wrote:
LOL @ hypocrites condemning the practice of experimentation on animals only to suggest experimentation on animals. Fucking terrorist scum.

I wasn't actually saying pro/against on the subject.

I was only stating that the idea had crossed my mind about human experimentation.

Like I said before, if I knew that I had a terminal illness and there was no hope, and the medical community said they had the possibility of a cure, I might be willing to go ahead and volunteer for experimentation. What would I have to lose ?

Granted, the experiment would likely fail and I would die anyway, but if it worked, then another breakthrough is accomplished.

Of course, I can't say with certainty what I would do.

If the doctors told me that I was going to die in six months, then I might very well just decide to ride my motorcycle, get laid as much as possible, drink massive amounts of beer and whiskey and wait for the end.

But the idea had crossed my mind on occasion.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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"Lol, yet the farmers keep

"Lol, yet the farmers keep planting beans and corn on the same land every single year. How do they do it? Magic! Crop rotation and fertilization are not new practices..."

No, they don't. The vast majority of soy crops aren't even rotated. Go learn something.

""for the most part only vegans consume""

Great, you're as incapable of understanding English and as willing to make up strawmen as the terrorist.

FAIL

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"I wasn't actually saying

"I wasn't actually saying pro/against on the subject."

I was referring to the terrorist scum, not you.

"Like I said before, if I knew that I had a terminal illness and there was no hope, and the medical community said they had the possibility of a cure, I might be willing to go ahead and volunteer for experimentation. What would I have to lose ?"

In point of fact, this is a required step by nearly every first world nation before a treatment or drug can be released publically. It not only happens, but has happened for decades.

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It is funny you're too

It is funny you're too stupid to understand the ethical difference between testing cosmetics on animals and trying to cure diseases but I can't say I'm all that surprised.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have to say being called a terrorist for making arguments on the internet is priceless, I literally lolled.


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Vastet wrote:"I wasn't

Vastet wrote:
"I wasn't actually saying pro/against on the subject." I was referring to the terrorist scum, not you. "Like I said before, if I knew that I had a terminal illness and there was no hope, and the medical community said they had the possibility of a cure, I might be willing to go ahead and volunteer for experimentation. What would I have to lose ?" In point of fact, this is a required step by nearly every first world nation before a treatment or drug can be released publically. It not only happens, but has happened for decades.

I guess I stand corrected and a little more educated on that subject.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Manageri wrote:EDIT: Oh

Manageri wrote:

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have to say being called a terrorist for making arguments on the internet is priceless, I literally lolled.

I am guessing he's talking about PETA and such.

I know that PETA members have been known to dump animal blood on people buying fur, throw a few cocktails at places where lab experimentation has taken place, paste pictures of animals dying horribly in traps in department stores that sell fur and stuff.

I don't know if the PETA organization actually condones the behavior or whether the members are acting on their own.

I have heard of groups like ALF (Animal Liberation Front) that are supposed to use pretty extreme tactics, but I don't know much about them.

I know that both of these groups have members that free animals from zoos and are against people having pets. Well, I know PETA is against domestic pets anyway. I am pretty sure ALF is.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Quote:The pragmatism of

Quote:
The pragmatism of something has nothing to do with whether it's ethical or not.

Take your tin foil utopia antenna off dipshit. Again, you are one of 7 billion. You did not invent ethics and ethics are subjective and situational and have never  been static. You are not the dictator of the world nor is the world centered around you.

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harleysportster wrote:Vastet

harleysportster wrote:

Vastet wrote:
"Like I said before, if I knew that I had a terminal illness and there was no hope, and the medical community said they had the possibility of a cure, I might be willing to go ahead and volunteer for experimentation. What would I have to lose ?" In point of fact, this is a required step by nearly every first world nation before a treatment or drug can be released publically. It not only happens, but has happened for decades.

I guess I stand corrected and a little more educated on that subject.

Of course they test everything out on people before they dump them on the market for mass distribution AFTER they've tested it on animals and made sure it's propably not gonna make people's heads explode, but the last phase of the process isn't the whole subject.

Brian37 wrote:
Take your tin foil utopia antenna off dipshit. Again, you are one of 7 billion. You did not invent ethics and ethics are subjective and situational and have never  been static. You are not the dictator of the world nor is the world centered around you.

That's nice but the subject is veganism, not my tin foil hat, and I'm only interested in discussing one of those subjects atm.


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Cut the fucking crap. You

Cut the fucking crap. You are all talk, just like any fucking politician or theist.

Lets say you are right, "eating animals is always bad". Bullshit, but lets play pretend which is what you are doing.

I don't want to see your next post full of emotional crybaby tearjerking emotional claptrap.

You have already stated your postion so we know what you believe.

So other than fearmongering and bulling and emotional blackmail, HOW would you go about getting people to see your point of view? Tactic, not position, is my issue.

Talk is cheap. And considering our evolution the odds of you getting 7 billion to conform to you is an an absurd proposition. So other than emotional masturbation what do you have?

If ifs and butts were candy and nuts we'd all have a party.

 

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Quote:not my tin foil hat,

Quote:
not my tin foil hat,

Glad you admit you have one. Walt Disney was an atheist but I always hated Mickey Mouse cartoons because they were too sappy sweet and never reflected any semblence of reality, not that any cartoon does. But The Simpsons and South Park and Futurama are closer to the flaws of reality that Disney was.

Your compassion is not my issue. It is your refusal to deal with reality.

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Brian37 wrote:Cut the

Brian37 wrote:

Cut the fucking crap. You are all talk, just like any fucking politician or theist.

I believe that's how arguing for a position usually works, yes.

Quote:
Lets say you are right, "eating animals is always bad". Bullshit, but lets play pretend which is what you are doing.

That's not my position, if you find a dead cow on your porch you're free to eat it, fuck it, or pretend it's MacGyver and discuss the weather with it, I don't give a shit.

Quote:
I don't want to see your next post full of emotional crybaby tearjerking emotional claptrap.

It's not my fault your cognitive dissonance is causing you emotional distress. Well actually I guess it kinda is but I don't really give a shit.

Quote:
You have already stated your postion so we know what you believe.

So other than fearmongering and bulling and emotional blackmail, HOW would you go about getting people to see your point of view? Tactic, not position, is my issue.

Gee, I dunno, maybe I'd make arguments like that animals feel pain exactly like we do, or maybe I'd expose people's silly double standards like if they thought piling crabs on top of each other was just horrible I might let them know they do the exact same thing to cows, you know, the stuff I've been doing all along for the whole fucking thread maybe?

Quote:
Talk is cheap. And considering our evolution the odds of you getting 7 billion to conform to you is an an absurd proposition. So other than emotional masturbation what do you have?

You really skip like half the things I write don't you? I just responded to the exact same fucking thing. No sane person thinks any argument will ever convince everyone, and it's not at all necessary for the veganism argument to do so in order to make a difference.


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my whole family hunts. 

my whole family hunts.  i've seen what goes into it and what doesn't go into it.  i feel no guilt.

ditto with my family and beef farming.  we do that too.  there's hundreds invested in each cow's health.  we sure as fuck don't pile them on top of each other in trailers like they're going to fuckin' auschwitz.  yes, we castrate steers.  yes, we de-horn pretty much every head.  i've been involved in both.  i've also seen the alternative.  again, i feel no guilt.

my grandfather knocked 400-pound hogs unconscious with a .22 short-round to the head and cut their throats with a black-handled steel blade--and i don't mean pussy-ass stainless steel--whose edge had grown concave from countless sharpenings.  that hog had spent at least a year eating cooked food from my grandmother's own hand.  one even ate a puppy once.  his blood was cooked in a plastic bag and ground into sausage mixture.  again, i feel no guilt.

i've also raised vegetables organically, including soybeans.  in fact, i spent the majority of this very day pulling carrots, parsnips, and beets out of the ground.  even this exercise reminded me of this eternal truth: farming is death.  the whole fucking process involves death.  painful death.  only a pale, stick-armed hipster would wax righteous about that.

if it weren't for the animals who come through our farms, and their very shit which we use to spread over our vegetable plots, your trendy fuckin' rochester wholefoods--vegan section and all--would have empty shelves.  farming is life, and all of farming is shit and death.  glorious, beautiful shit and death.  that shit and death means life.  so if you wanna be a modern-day fuckin' gwyneth paltrow-esque hero, go fuckin' starve.  please.  you will not be missed.

the rest of you--you hungry?  grab a knife. 

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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Manageri wrote:
The fact meat eating was possibly important in the past does not make it vital today, and therefore torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole. Sorry meat eating cunts. Not.

We could do the right thing and let them run free to be subject to humane slaughter by wolves and such.

We be animals. In nature the rule is eat anything that doesn't eat you first.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Manageri wrote:

The fact meat eating was possibly important in the past does not make it vital today, and therefore torturing animals just as capable of suffering as you for no important reason still makes you a preposterous asshole. Sorry meat eating cunts. Not.

While it may be true that many people could not eat after spending time at a slaughter house, being a hypocrite doesn't make one a monster. If you are going to ask me to give up on stakes or burgers, blow me.

Until quite recently 80 to 90% of the population did in fact slaughter the animals they ate mainly those they raised. The idea of modern unfamiliarity with slaughter is no different from the modern unfamiliarity with outhouses.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Manageri wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
While it may be true that many people could not eat after spending time at a slaughter house, being a hypocrite doesn't make one a monster. If you are going to ask me to give up on stakes or burgers, blow me.

Paying people to torture animals for your petty taste pleasures is what makes you an asshole, or a monster as you put it. Whether you can personally stand the sight of the shit that happens because of you is irrelevant and I made no such argument.

Perhaps you mean we should do it the way it is done in nature and rip pieces off of them until they die of blood loss. That is the natural way to do it. Although I would prefer the human approach of poking the with sharp stones on the end of sticks until they die of blood loss. It is the way most animals kills. Even cats tend to go for clamping down on the throat while ripping out the guts with the hind claws. That is what you pet kitty was trying to do the one and only time you really pissed it off.

Quote:
Quote:
Humans have always eaten animals, I do not see that part of our evolution ending anytime soon. Especially with people like you acting just as utopian and fundy as a believer.

Men have always raped women, I do not see that part of our evolution ending anytime soon. Especially with people like you acting just as utopian and fundy as a believer.

You failed Anthopology 101 no doubt. Fact is there are always women ready to fuck and rape has always been considered bad form. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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harleysportster wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Anthropologist Finds Evidence of Hominin Meat Eating 1.5 Million Years Ago: Eating Meat May Have 'Made Us Human' ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2012) — A skull fragment unearthed by anthropologists in Tanzania shows that our ancient ancestors were eating meat at least 1.5 million years ago, shedding new light into the evolution of human physiology and brain development. "Meat eating has always been considered one of the things that made us human, with the protein contributing to the growth of our brains," said Charles Musiba, Ph.D.,

I was curious if there was a link to the rest of this particular article ?

The basic idea has been around for a very long time. It gives the most nutrition for the least effort. More free time is good. A greater range of food in lean times is better.

More recently there is a book which I cannot remember the title of nor find in my collection on cooking being the most important factor for a whole host of reasons. Among them, less time eating and both more available nutrition and and less energy needed for digestion. Not only more available nutrition but less energy spent digesting it.

Quote:
I was curious as to how meat eating affected the development of our early brains and if these proteins are needed in the development of present day brains.

Raise a child on veggie diet  and expect Child Protective Services to call it abuse. There are specific development deformities caused by a meat deficient diet that no amount of whole protein diets can prevent. In the good old days three years of breast feeding got infants over the hump until they had teeth and jaw strength to handle meat.

Quote:
Just wondering, with the advent of more developed societies and the advent of agricultures and grainaries, if humans had evolved past that essential need, or if the article addresses that ? I know I could probably look it up. But I wouldn't know where to begin.

EDIT : The reason that I ask is because I know a few people that are vegetarian for what they call "health reasons" vs. people like my girlfriend ( not that she is a PETA member or anything) but does it out of a sense of ethics about animal welfare.

I just wondered about the health reasons of not eating meat and what those motivating factors are.

Vegetarians were addressed in the first Robot Chicken ep this season. You might also try Scott Somebody versus the World. There is no credible basis for vegetarianism save for a very few people who have a metabolic problem with meat and that is usually ancillary in that veal and fish are usually edible by them. There was this woman who treated her five cats ethicly who died of a heart attack and they ate her.

In the modern world they fill the niche of the penetents who always giving up something, trying to out do others. For a few centuries in the middle east they lived on top of pillars and kept trying to come up with a ritual more rigorous than they guy on the next pillar over. They gained the nickname athletes as it was just a competition. So also with veggies who ascend to higher and higher levels of purity. Eventually they can look down on the impure ovo-lactos.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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harleysportster wrote:
Vastet wrote:
For another, vegan diets cause more damage to the environment than healthy, balanced diets.

How so ?

Partial answer and facts for non-farmers. ALL crops are like grapes for wine. There are good years and bad and in the same year what is good in one place can be bad in another. What is sold for human consumption is the best of the crop regardless of the crop, soy beans, wheat, corn, everything. What is not sold for human consumption becomes animal feed.

IF we grew just enough for human consumption the range of say bread would be outrageously priced for the best and bargain priced made from what we feed to cattle. The fact that we raise animals means all of the grain products we eat are top quality. Conversely if we were all veggies and shipped what we do not eat to the "starving" people we  would be sending what we do not consider fit for human consumption. We would be sending what is now animal feed.

It is the existence of a meat industry that permits top quality cereals for people as there is a market for what is not good enough for people. If the worst had to be scrapped the cost of the best in light of the less than best being a total loss would skyrocket.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Manageri wrote:It is funny

Manageri wrote:

It is funny you're too stupid to understand the ethical difference between testing cosmetics on animals and trying to cure diseases but I can't say I'm all that surprised.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have to say being called a terrorist for making arguments on the internet is priceless, I literally lolled.

It's funny how you're a lying, hypocrite, terrorist piece of trash who got owned so bad he doesn't even have an argument anymore.

Oh and if I can be called a torturer just for making arguments online, you can be called a terrorist for supporting terrorists.

Fucking faggot.

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Manageri wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Ok there hypocrite who tortures plants. Go fuck yourself.

Yeah, torturing nonsentient things

Beyond the tortured usage of torturing how can it be applied to the non-sentient? Do you  have a tortured meaning for nonsentient also?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Manageri wrote:
Well shopping really is the most annoying part of veganism, giving up the animal products wasn't that difficult for me once I knew how they're produced.

What precisely is your problem with how they are produced?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Vastet wrote:"Lol, yet the

Vastet wrote:
"Lol, yet the farmers keep planting beans and corn on the same land every single year. How do they do it? Magic! Crop rotation and fertilization are not new practices..." No, they don't. The vast majority of soy crops aren't even rotated. Go learn something.

Yes they are rotated. Most often corn is rotated with soybeans because soybeans add nitrogen to the soil which leads to larger corn yields. And virtually every farmer here in Ohio (a state that produces almost twice as much soybeans as your entire country) rotates beans with corn. Some use a four crop rotation cycle which usually runs soybeans, corn, alfalfa, wheat but the two crop rotation is certainly the most common. At least bother doing a cursory google before you say such ignorant things. Go learn something.  

 


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harleysportster wrote:
Manageri wrote:
Yes, luckily I don't need to worry about that shit as much as a dude. What's mostly been protested is the practise of testing cosmetics on animals (it's often even nonvegans doing the protesting), which has been succesful in getting some companies to stop that, but the vast majority of that stuff is also nonvegan on account of containing animal based ingredients.

There were several major companies that were targeted on the account of that. I can't remember which ones. But some of the vegans that I know of have put out a lot of protests against those practices.

Another major protest is laboratory testing and experiments on animals for medical research.

Some protestors state that some of this laboratory testing in the name of "medical research" has been abused and misused.

What is your opinion on any sort of laboratory testing for medical research ?

It is the real sadist who prefers blind and disfigured women to cosmetic testing on animals. You could make movies about people like that. But PETA types tend not to be photogenic.

Further product testers including drug companies have been working for years to replace animals for a variety of reasons mainly that it is hugely difficult and expensive but is the only method short of skipping animals and going directly to humans.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I know this is not meant to be funny but . .

Vastet wrote:
LOL @ hypocrites condemning the practice of experimentation on animals only to suggest experimentation on animals. Fucking terrorist scum.

   I know this is not meant to be funny but I am laughing (this remarking is starting to sound like Harley).


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Waste not .. want not . . .

Quote:
..his blood was cooked in a plastic bag and ground into sausage mixture

  Now this is Finland Sweden Norway and I once saw also with the Vietnamese  each and every country listed have blood sausage recipes.

 

  

  Indigenous native peoples on this map Image each had a ritual and offered a prayer of Thanksgiving to the animal's spirit, they took for sustenance, more ancient beliefs offered the same but even greater reverence was given, for they were sustainers of life. Back to the map, It is very interesting to observe the strikingly odd reverence that washes over their face and how the voice lowers in tone in simply discussing the animals from tribe to tribe to tribe. 


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Beyond Saving wrote:Yes they

Beyond Saving wrote:
Yes they are rotated. Most often corn is rotated with soybeans because soybeans add nitrogen to the soil which leads to larger corn yields. And virtually every farmer here in Ohio (a state that produces almost twice as much soybeans as your entire country) rotates beans with corn. Some use a four crop rotation cycle which usually runs soybeans, corn, alfalfa, wheat but the two crop rotation is certainly the most common. At least bother doing a cursory google before you say such ignorant things. Go learn something.

No they aren't. You don't have a clue what you're talking about, as usual.
If you had a clue what you're talking about, you'd know most soy crops aren't grown in the US. South America produces more than the US does, and crops are also grown in Asia. In fact the US accounts for only 35% of soy production world wide. As if anecdotal evidence wasn't enough to shut you down, you felt the need to demonstrate your ignorance. Congrats!

Next time take your own advice.

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iwbiek wrote:my whole family

iwbiek wrote:

my whole family hunts.  i've seen what goes into it and what doesn't go into it.  i feel no guilt.

No one's talking about hunting here.

Quote:
ditto with my family and beef farming.  we do that too.  there's hundreds invested in each cow's health.  we sure as fuck don't pile them on top of each other in trailers like they're going to fuckin' auschwitz.

Well that proves no one else does it either then, clearly.

Quote:
yes, we castrate steers.  yes, we de-horn pretty much every head.  i've been involved in both.  i've also seen the alternative.  again, i feel no guilt.

Yes, the horrible alternative of not breeding them in the first place so you don't have to torture them, how awful.

Quote:
my grandfather knocked 400-pound hogs unconscious with a .22 short-round to the head and cut their throats with a black-handled steel blade--and i don't mean pussy-ass stainless steel--whose edge had grown concave from countless sharpenings.  that hog had spent at least a year eating cooked food from my grandmother's own hand.  one even ate a puppy once.  his blood was cooked in a plastic bag and ground into sausage mixture.  again, i feel no guilt.

Yeah, let's pretend your farm is an accurate representation of how massive factory farms work.

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if it weren't for the animals who come through our farms, and their very shit which we use to spread over our vegetable plots, your trendy fuckin' rochester wholefoods--vegan section and all--would have empty shelves.  farming is life, and all of farming is shit and death.  glorious, beautiful shit and death.  that shit and death means life.  so if you wanna be a modern-day fuckin' gwyneth paltrow-esque hero, go fuckin' starve.  please.  you will not be missed.

I assume you're talking about some organic farming nonsense which is not what I'm talking about.


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^ Terrorists don't

^ Terrorists don't understand population management, even when its in the best interest of the population, which has ironically evolved under human care to be dependant on humanity, and could not be released into the wild for both their own safety and the general environment at large.

Too funny.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:We could

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

We could do the right thing and let them run free to be subject to humane slaughter by wolves and such.

Or like not breed em at all...

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We be animals. In nature the rule is eat anything that doesn't eat you first.

Well then I guess you have no objection to me pummeling you to death with a stick if you look at me the wrong way since that's perfectly natural animal behaviour. What's that? That woudn't be cool? You mean you somehow only resort to these idiotic appeals to nature when it's an argument for YOU acting like an asshole. Shocking.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Raise a child on veggie diet  and expect Child Protective Services to call it abuse. There are specific development deformities caused by a meat deficient diet that no amount of whole protein diets can prevent. In the good old days three years of breast feeding got infants over the hump until they had teeth and jaw strength to handle meat.

Absolutely massive fucking preposterous lie. How the fuck could people survive on a vegan diet for decades on end but somehow children have magical special nutritional needs that only meat can satisfy? Name me something vital in a human diet that meat is necessary for motherfucker, just one thing. Disgusting fear mongering propaganda.


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Vastet wrote:^ Terrorists

Vastet wrote:
^ Terrorists don't understand population management, even when its in the best interest of the population, which has ironically evolved under human care to be dependant on humanity, and could not be released into the wild for both their own safety and the general environment at large. Too funny.

Quote me saying "let's release em all to the wild". Do it fucker. Oh that's right, I didn't suggest any such thing so shove your strawman up your dickhole.


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Manageri wrote:Vastet

Manageri wrote:

Vastet wrote:
^ Terrorists don't understand population management, even when its in the best interest of the population, which has ironically evolved under human care to be dependant on humanity, and could not be released into the wild for both their own safety and the general environment at large. Too funny.

Quote me saying "let's release em all to the wild". Do it fucker. Oh that's right, I didn't suggest any such thing so shove your strawman up your dickhole.

More stupidity from a terrorist who can't show me claiming he said anything of the sort.

The absolute illogical stupidity is strong with this one.

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While I'm on this segment of

While I'm on this segment of vegan stupidity, what exactly would you recommend be done with the billions of pigs, cows, and chickens which have no natural habitat and haven't had one for millennia, instead of caring for them as we have for those millennia and eating them as any predator consumes its prey, though in far more humane practices of slaughter than can be found in nature?

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Vastet wrote:While I'm on

Vastet wrote:
While I'm on this segment of vegan stupidity, what exactly would you recommend be done with the billions of pigs, cows, and chickens which have no natural habitat and haven't had one for millennia, instead of caring for them as we have for those millennia and eating them as any predator consumes its prey, though in far more humane practices of slaughter than can be found in nature?

I am pretty sure, that the Anti-Natalist position on this is to sterilize all of them and allow them to not be able to breed any more of their species.

I know that one Anti-Natalist put forth this position on one of the YouTube channels (see the thread titled : Why the God Concept is Broken as a claim) and stated that by ending the breeding of these animals, it would prevent the future suffering of billions upon billions of these creatures that will be born.

The Anti-Natalist position takes this same stance with human beings and procreation. Which more or less is stating that the pain and suffering of this world can be solved by ending procreation and preventing the future suffering of billions of future generations.

Not all of those vegans out there are Anti-Natalists, but this subject was discussed in a couple of threads.

Not speaking for Manageri, but I am pretty sure that I understand the position. I had never heard of it, until he had brought it up on a couple of previous threads.

Not sure what the vegan answer is from those that are not Anti-Natalists.

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Sounds like the only truly

Sounds like the only truly pleasing result to them would be the extinction of all life. Funny how they'd make that choice for all life without consent of such life.
Is this your position, terrorist?

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harleysportster wrote:Vastet

harleysportster wrote:

Vastet wrote:
While I'm on this segment of vegan stupidity, what exactly would you recommend be done with the billions of pigs, cows, and chickens which have no natural habitat and haven't had one for millennia, instead of caring for them as we have for those millennia and eating them as any predator consumes its prey, though in far more humane practices of slaughter than can be found in nature?

I am pretty sure, that the Anti-Natalist position on this is to sterilize all of them and allow them to not be able to breed any more of their species.

Well that'd be fine too I guess but you could just kill em all (I mean as a practical matter who has the time to sterilize every friggin chicken without torturing them in the process which is what you're trying to prevent in the first place). That's my position, it's sure as hell not the position of most vegans though.

Btw calling factory farm conditions "caring for them" is hilarious, you might as well describe what Josef Fritzl did as caring for his daughter all those years.

Quote:
Not sure what the vegan answer is from those that are not Anti-Natalists.

It might not make any sense if they're opposed to killing (some of) them but that's not my problem.


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Vastet wrote:Sounds like the

Vastet wrote:
Sounds like the only truly pleasing result to them would be the extinction of all life. Funny how they'd make that choice for all life without consent of such life. Is this your position, terrorist?

Some Anti-Natalists seem to be more focused on humans ending breeding, while most of the ones I encountered on the Net and on YouTube were indeed vegan, alot of them were focused on the problem of human existence.

Guy named David Benatar wrote a book called : Better to have never been, which more or less concludes that seeing all life phase out is the solution to suffering.

A lot of them view nature as an inherently cruel thing, and breeding as an immoral act of bringing a life into the world that it does not choose to be in, only to subject it to a best case scenario of living, growing old, watching those it cares about dies, and then finally dying. Not to mention all of the other things that sentient beings face, such as depravation, torture, rape, wars, famine, plagues etc.

True enough, rather than sterilizing, one poster did put forth the notion that if all slaughterhouses were blown up, that would end the potential for trillions of future animals that will be born into captivity, subjected to inhumane treatment, killed and then consumed.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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More terrorist hypocrisy

More terrorist hypocrisy exposed. Excellent.

"tw calling factory farm conditions "caring for them" is hilarious, you might as well describe what Josef Fritzl did as caring for his daughter all those years."

YAWN
Boring and unsubstantiated lies for the fail.

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@ Harley, isn't it funny how

@ Harley, isn't it funny how there's a presupposed belief of humanity as the source of evil in this? The ultimate irony would be them succeeding, and then the last vegan (nay human!) gets to witness first contact with an alien species which values REAL torture, and strings them up, gutting and cooking them alive.

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I can just picture a group

I can just picture a group of vegans dancing around a Texas sized stinking pile of corpses, celebrating the freedom of the dead.

Disgusting wastes of perfectly good oxygen. Go euthanise yourselves already.

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Manageri wrote: Well that

Manageri wrote:

 

Well that proves no one else does it either then, clearly.

no one i know or have met.  i wager i've met more farmers in an afternoon than you have in your entire life.

Manageri wrote:

Yes, the horrible alternative of not breeding them in the first place so you don't have to torture them, how awful.

no, the alternative of losing a cow and an unborn calf because bossy gored molly, among other things.

Manageri wrote:

Yeah, let's pretend your farm is an accurate representation of how massive factory farms work.

so you have no problem with meat-eating per se?  thank god for that.

Manageri wrote:

I assume you're talking about some organic farming nonsense which is not what I'm talking about.

so go talk where you have cred.  like a greenpeace website.

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iwbiek wrote:Manageri

iwbiek wrote:
Manageri wrote:

Well that proves no one else does it either then, clearly.

no one i know or have met.  i wager i've met more farmers in an afternoon than you have in your entire life.

Too bad your anecdotal real life experience is kinda irrelevant when we have evidence of that kinda shit happening elsewhere, and it wouldn't even matter if that particular thing wasn't true since you already admitted all kinds of other torturous practices that take place even at your relatively non-brutal farm.

Quote:
Manageri wrote:

Yes, the horrible alternative of not breeding them in the first place so you don't have to torture them, how awful.

no, the alternative of losing a cow and an unborn calf because bossy gored molly, among other things.

No, the alternative of not breeding them at all is on the table as well, deal with it. I don't really give a shit whether you (think you) have good reasons for those practices after the animals already exist until you explain to me what crucial need their existence serves in the first place.

Quote:
Manageri wrote:

Yeah, let's pretend your farm is an accurate representation of how massive factory farms work.

so you have no problem with meat-eating per se?  thank god for that.

I have a problem with torturing animals for no good reason. If you could grow animals in a coma or something so they never become sentient then it'd be ethically indistinguishable from eating plants (at least as far as the animals are concerned, you can still argue about enviromental issues etc but that's a whole other subject).


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Some quick searching about vegan diets

I did some searching about vegan dieting for children and found both favorable and unfavorable results :

Here is link :

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/30/vegan-diet-for-kids_n_1464362.html

The article states :

Apparently 'Old McDonald Had A Farms' doesn't cut it when it comes to early childhood education any more. Vegan is Love: Having Heart and Taking Action isn't the typical bedtime story you'd find parents reading to their kids before kissing them goodnight -- unless that parent likes to leave images of bloody steaks in meat lockers lingering in the dreams of their six year old.

The picture book, which was released last week, is being slammed as inappropriate, with experts saying the graphic images are akin to brainwashing children to think that veganism is the only lifestyle capable of "standing up for yourself and all other living beings and that is love."

The book also reignites the debate of whether a vegan diet is right for young children. A diet that's free of meats or foods produced by animals has been found to have benefits like lowered risk for diseases, physical perks, and an overall healthier lifestyle. But many parents and nutritional experts question whether the same applies to those who are still growing.

(The rest of the article can be found at the link)

Another Link :

http://moms.today.com/_news/2012/04/17/11102428-should-kids-go-vegan?lite

The article states :

While her classmates dive right into the sweet treats at school events, Ruby Roth’s 7-year-old stepdaughter Akira always asks first: “Is it vegan?”

If it’s not, Roth says, her stepdaughter politely replies, “OK, I don’t want it.”

Roth, 29, didn’t become a vegan until an adult, challenged to do so, she says, by her husband, who was raising his daughter as a vegan. “Everything else in my life kind of pointed to me being vegan.” Her mother was a lifelong vegetarian, and Roth, who now lives in Los Angeles, grew up on an organic tree farm. Her passion for veganism has spurred her to write and illustrate two children’s books on the subject. “Why We Don’t Eat Animals” was published in 2009, and “Vegan is Love” is due out April 24.

Many parents might wonder how any child could thrive on a diet that eliminates all animal products, including milk and cheese, eggs, meat and fish. Yet, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly the American Dietetic Association), “appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes.”

A well-planned vegan diet, one that contains nutrients vital for normal development, such as vitamins B12 and D, iron, calcium, zinc and protein, won’t stunt kids’ growth, says TODAY’s nutrition expert Joy Bauer. Substantial amounts of B12 are naturally found only in foods derived from animals, Bauer notes, so breastfeeding vegan moms need to make sure they get it from fortified soy milk and cereals. After they’re weaned, kids can drink fortified soy milk themselves

(Rest of the article at link)

This NY Times Journalist is not so favorable :

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/17/is-veganism-good-for-everyone/a-choice-with-definite-risks

Nature created humans as omnivores. We have the physical equipment for omnivory, from teeth to guts. We have extraordinary needs for nutrients not found in plants. They include fully-formed vitamins A and D, vitamin B12, and the long-chain fatty acids found in fish.

The breast milk of vegan mothers is dramatically lower in a critical brain fat, DHA, than the milk of an omnivorous mother.

For babies and children, whose nutritional needs are extraordinary, the risks are definite and scary. The breast milk of vegetarian and vegan mothers is dramatically lower in a critical brain fat, DHA, than the milk of an omnivorous mother and contains less usable vitamin B6. Carnitine, a vital amino acid found in meat and breast milk, is nicknamed “vitamin Bb” because babies need so much of it. Vegans, vegetarians and people with poor thyroid function are often deficient in carnitine and its precursors.

(Rest of the article can be found at link)

This article has pros and cons :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/20/veganism-safe-children

Amanda Baker at the Vegan Society says the real issue isn't whether a child's diet is vegan or not, or restricted or not – the important thing is whether it's healthy. "There are plenty of children who are eating a bad diet, and they're not vegan," she says. "Vegan parents have to plan their child's food carefully. Of course there are pitfalls, but there are pitfalls for all parents and for any diet.

"The reality is that vegan parents are more likely to cook at home, and are likely to be very knowledgeable about nutrition because they have had to make a lot of effort to follow the diet they do. Many of them follow a wholefood diet, and avoid trans-fats and too much salt. It's actually much easier for vegans and their children to meet the five-a-day guidelines than for other people."

Vegans, she says, are victims of the fact that many people, from doctors and health workers to social workers and other parents, are badly informed. "We've written to every GP's surgery in an attempt to make sure there's better information out there. Parents can come in for mistaken pressure from people with genuine concerns, simply because the issues aren't properly understood."

Paediatric dietician Helen Wilcock, a member of the British Dietetic Association, says she tries not to be judgmental about the rights and wrongs of vegan diets for young children, but any parent wanting to raise their child as a vegan needs to be very well-informed. "Vegan children can be deficient in vitamin D, calcium, iron and possibly vitamin B12, so they need supplements," she says.

(Rest of the article at link).

I could keep posting this, but who is going to read all of it ?

It seems that there are mixed responses to this idea.

However, this was just what I found on a quick google search.

 

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Vastet wrote:@ Harley, isn't

Vastet wrote:
@ Harley, isn't it funny how there's a presupposed belief of humanity as the source of evil in this? The ultimate irony would be them succeeding, and then the last vegan (nay human!) gets to witness first contact with an alien species which values REAL torture, and strings them up, gutting and cooking them alive.

 

This is a short video that is a compiliation of various Anti-Natalists and pretty much sums up the reasons for their ideas. Granted, it would probably take a long time to expound on all of the ideas that are present among Anti-Natalists, but when this subject came up before, and I got curious about it, this was one of the first videos that I came across in my search :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqOeHYeNezQ

 

This one is even shorter, but it is a Colombian Anti-Natalist giving a speech to children (subtitled in English) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9lXcgJ6s1g

Excerpt from the speech :

""Heaven and happiness do not exist. That's your parents' way to justify the crime of having brought you into this world. What exists is reality, the tough reality, this slaughterhouse we've come to die in, if not to kill and to eat the animals, our fellow creatures. Therefore, do not reproduce, do not repeat the crimes committed against you, do not give back the same, evil paid with evil, as imposing life is the ultimate crime. Do not disturb the unborn, let them be in the peace of nothingness, anyway we'll all eventually go back there, so why beat around the bush?" ~ Fernando Vallejo

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:I did

harleysportster wrote:

I did some searching about vegan dieting for children and found both favorable and unfavorable results

The important thing is that, contrary to the ridicilous propaganda many ignorant assholes like to spread, there is not a single vital nutrient you cannot get sufficient amounts of in a vegan diet. Humans simply have no biological necessity to eat nonvegan products, especially red meat. No one's claiming the diets of kids shouldn't ideally look somewhat different than adult diets, INCLUDING NONVEGAN DIETS, so the fact we should pay more attention to what our kids eat is not in any way an argument against veganism.

Also it's not really important but since it keeps popping up as if it means something, the idea that humans are "omnivores" because of our teeth and stuff and therefore eating cows is totally natural, why don't you explain to me why gorillas don't do the BBQ thing then despite their huge canines and why their diet consists almost entirely of plants (while the remaining few percent consists of insects, hardly something they need those teeth for). For maximum ignorant douche points (this is perfect for you, Vastet) why don't you ask em where they get their protein too, maybe even pick a fight, I'm sure those protein deficient pussies can't take a strong meat eating human down, right?


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Manageri wrote:[The

Manageri wrote:

[The important thing is that, contrary to the ridicilous propaganda many ignorant assholes like to spread, there is not a single vital nutrient you cannot get sufficient amounts of in a vegan diet. Humans simply have no biological necessity to eat nonvegan products, especially red meat. No one's claiming the diets of kids shouldn't ideally look somewhat different than adult diets, INCLUDING NONVEGAN DIETS, so the fact we should pay more attention to what our kids eat is not in any way an argument against veganism.

Also it's not really important but since it keeps popping up as if it means something, the idea that humans are "omnivores" because of our teeth and stuff and therefore eating cows is totally natural, why don't you explain to me why gorillas don't do the BBQ thing then despite their huge canines and why their diet consists almost entirely of plants (while the remaining few percent consists of insects, hardly something they need those teeth for). For maximum ignorant douche points (this is perfect for you, Vastet) why don't you ask em where they get their protein too, maybe even pick a fight, I'm sure those protein deficient pussies can't take a strong meat eating human down, right?

Actually, I was replying to a posts  that vegan practices for children were unhealthy.

According to these articles, as long as children have vitamin supplements (like B12 and stuff) then there is no risk.

One of those articles also stated that after a certain age, it was not a major deal about certain supplements.

It seemed that the searches (both for and against) did not really provide any evidence that it was detrimental for children to engage in vegan diets, so long as the vitamin supplements were in place.

That was what I was curious about.

It stemmed from a couple of posts that said meat eating was essential for development.

It looks like while it might be a lot easier to give a kid a steak or something to ensure protein intake, it was still possible for the kid to get his sufficient nutrients from alternative methods.

This would require a little more work on the part of vegan parents, but if vegan parents are dedicated to this, I am pretty sure that they would not mind purchasing extra supplements to avoid the practice of eating meat.  If they are dead serious about it.

IOW. So far as I can tell, there is no eminent danger to vegan children with proper information.

I had heard of quite a few people that said they were vegetarian for "health purposes" and wondered those were.

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― Giordano Bruno


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Manageri wrote:iwbiek

Manageri wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Manageri wrote:

Well that proves no one else does it either then, clearly.

no one i know or have met.  i wager i've met more farmers in an afternoon than you have in your entire life.

Too bad your anecdotal real life experience is kinda irrelevant when we have evidence of that kinda shit happening elsewhere, and it wouldn't even matter if that particular thing wasn't true since you already admitted all kinds of other torturous practices that take place even at your relatively non-brutal farm.

Quote:
Manageri wrote:

Yes, the horrible alternative of not breeding them in the first place so you don't have to torture them, how awful.

no, the alternative of losing a cow and an unborn calf because bossy gored molly, among other things.

No, the alternative of not breeding them at all is on the table as well, deal with it. I don't really give a shit whether you (think you) have good reasons for those practices after the animals already exist until you explain to me what crucial need their existence serves in the first place.

Quote:
Manageri wrote:

Yeah, let's pretend your farm is an accurate representation of how massive factory farms work.

so you have no problem with meat-eating per se?  thank god for that.

I have a problem with torturing animals for no good reason. If you could grow animals in a coma or something so they never become sentient then it'd be ethically indistinguishable from eating plants (at least as far as the animals are concerned, you can still argue about enviromental issues etc but that's a whole other subject).

you, sir, have obviously never handled a cow, pig, chicken, rabbit, turkey, or any other kind of livestock in your life.  i bet your knowledge of farming comes mostly from inflammatory youtube videos.  why not spend a few months shoveling the shit of the animals you'd like to save, then make an informed judgment?  of course, it's easier to click away on a keyboard than go up to your elbows in bovine cunt trying to turn a calf the right way around.

you have no love for animals, only ideas.  i've vaccinated their asses, replaced their saltlicks, taken 45-minute showers to get their fuckin' afterbirth off me.  i've loved them.  so take your blonde dreadlocks, your skewed statistics, and your red, green, and yellow hackey-sack and fuck right off.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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  Culture wars are fun to

  Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood...


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iwbiek wrote:you, sir, have

iwbiek wrote:
you, sir, have obviously never handled a cow, pig, chicken, rabbit, turkey, or any other kind of livestock in your life.  i bet your knowledge of farming comes mostly from inflammatory youtube videos.  why not spend a few months shoveling the shit of the animals you'd like to save, then make an informed judgment?  of course, it's easier to click away on a keyboard than go up to your elbows in bovine cunt trying to turn a calf the right way around.

you have no love for animals, only ideas.  i've vaccinated their asses, replaced their saltlicks, taken 45-minute showers to get their fuckin' afterbirth off me.  i've loved them.  so take your blonde dreadlocks, your skewed statistics, and your red, green, and yellow hackey-sack and fuck right off.

This is a truly amazing response. It's like if I was telling a school bully he shouldn't beat the other kids up and he replied with "well I spent 45 minutes getting his blood off my shirt so it's ok".


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" Culture wars are fun to

" Culture wars are fun to observe.  All the ferocity of a contact sport but without the blood..."

Likely be different if not for the net. I don't tolerate terrorists and bullies.

Now that there's nothing left to argue, here's a whole bunch of links showing the vegan diet isn't what its cracked up to be, once you cut out the vegan sites which only lie to you.

http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/scary-truth-vegan-diets-153100998.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/026172_soy_health_healthy.html

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/eating-vegan-diet-bad-for-your-heart

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html

Just a few of dozens of sites that expose the truth. An excerpt:
Then we have the French Center for Cancer Research, which now recommends no children under the age of three should eat soy. The center also advised against soy for women who are at risk for breast cancer and for those who already have it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
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Another: And in 2005, the

Another:
And in 2005, the Israeli Health Ministry issued a public warning against the consumption of soy in children and infants. It even advised day care centers and schools to strictly limit the amount of soy products served to children.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.