the 'crucifixtion' of William Jennings Bryan (Inherit the Wind)

BookofJob
Theist
Posts: 20
Joined: 2010-04-29
User is offlineOffline
the 'crucifixtion' of William Jennings Bryan (Inherit the Wind)

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/scopes.html

William Jennings Bryan was in fact a 'great American'...who fought for some of the most progressive causes of his day for the common man.

I would say he did FAR FAR FAR more for the 'common man' than Charles Darwin and the 20th century fallout from his theory ever dreamed of doing. In fact one could argue they are diameterically opposed from a philosophical viewpoint.

Real history turned into fiction is always a problematic issue. There is always the need to spice it up so to speak, and in the end a work of fiction winds up playing to every stereotyped ignorance one can imagine....dissiminated of course thru all the 'proper channels'.

Then there's 'reality TV'....sigh......

"Let us, at least, dig and seek till we have discovered our own opinions. The dogmas we really hold are far more fantastic, and, perhaps, far more beautiful than we think. In the course of these essays I fear that I have spoken from time to time of rationalists and rationalism, and that in a disparaging sense. Being full of that kindliness which should come at the end of everything, even of a book, I apologize to the rationalists even for calling them rationalists. There are no rationalists. We all believe fairy-tales, and live in them. Some, with a sumptuous literary turn, believe in the existence of the lady clothed with the sun. Some, with a more rustic, elvish instinct, like Mr. McCabe, believe merely in the impossible sun itself. Some hold the undemonstrable dogma of the existence of God; some the equally undemonstrable dogma of the existence of the man next door."

Gilbert Keith Chesterton

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
One of the fundamental

One of the fundamental fallacies  of your position, and GKC's, is that everything that cannot be 100% demonstrated, proved, is therefore , in some sense, on a equivalent footing.

Whereas we can indeed establish that the likelihood that the guy next door exists if far greater than that there is a divine super being.

This because it is consistent with so many observations, which would require explanation if he didn't actually exist.

Whereas in the context of modern well-established understanding, God is a problem, a strange proposition, that needs to be justified, not in any way an effective explanation for anything.

So that quote simply demonstrates the ignorance of the speaker. Don't feel too bad, that is an ancient and common fallacy.

If you want to get anywhere in argument here you will need something a lot more sophisticated than that.

Presenting such arguments here simply demonstrates that you are similarly ignorant, ie you don't seem to have any arguments which hold water.

Darwin never claimed to be fighting for justice, just for truth. He made a massive contribution to our understanding of reality, which, among other things, has become of fundamental importance in the fight against disease-causing organisms, which God, if such a being existed, would have been responsible for, and thereby Darwin should be given some credit for the survival of everyone who has been successfully treated by modern anti-biotics. Rescuing people from the effects of the evil actions of your God.

Of course Darwin and William Jennings Bryan are arguably "diametrically opposed from a philosophical viewpoint". So what?

Darwin was a honest seeker of truth, who advanced human understanding, WJB was a politician with quirky ideas who made little real positive contribution to society.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

And what have his works done to cure diseases? Help farmers to develop more disease resistant crops and the million other things that science has given us?

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Only you and those who run

Only you and those who run that website would confuse Inherit the Wind with history.

Is that a side effect from accepting "The Flintstones" as a science documentary?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
I've got a wind for you to

I've got a wind for you to inherit, BJ... it's called Zyklon B.

http://youtu.be/_-rD262adg8

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Never heard of him. Guess

Never heard of him. Guess he's really not that special.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Vastet wrote:
Never heard of him. Guess he's really not that special.

 

Wow, I can't tell if you are joking or not. He was the prosecutor in the first “evolution on trial” trial.

 

 

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Why would I know or care

Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Why would I

Vastet wrote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

Good point. I couldn't even be bothered to...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
Is the OP going to follow up

Is the OP going to follow up on any of these copy and paste posts?  I would like to see at least one eloquently worded reply before I engage.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Quote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

 

Only to the extent that I should know about Canadian history.

 

Sure, you probably built a dam somewhere relatively important at some time. Knowledge of that would not do anything for me.

 

Knowing the history of rationalism? Different case.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:Vastet

Kapkao wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

Good point. I couldn't even be bothered to...

So you came to brag about your apathy?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Kapkao

jcgadfly wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

Good point. I couldn't even be bothered to...

So you came to brag about your apathy?

hehe, this reminds me of a Family guy scene, where Peter is reading The Newyorker cartoon with a caption of "I'd be more apathetic if I wasn't so lethargic." Smiling not sure which episode it was.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:So you came

jcgadfly wrote:

So you came to brag about your apathy?

No, I came to make a point that not even I could be bothered to know/learn every event and name in US history.

If I did come to brag about how much I supposedly don't care, what difference would it make to you?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:jcgadfly

Kapkao wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you came to brag about your apathy?

No, I came to make a point that not even I could be bothered to know/learn every event and name in US history.

If I did come to brag about how much I supposedly don't care, what difference would it make to you?

I just wondered why someone would brag about a lack of knowledge about significant events and persons in history. That's a tad different from "know/learn every event and name in US history".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Quote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

 

Only to the extent that I should know about Canadian history.

 

Sure, you probably built a dam somewhere relatively important at some time. Knowledge of that would not do anything for me.

 

Knowing the history of rationalism? Different case.

And since your laws have 0 bearing on Canada, I couldn't care less about any of them, or the people involved in them. So don't think this guy is at all special to 99% of the world. Much like that Parks woman, he's irrelevant. Darwin actually did something for everyone.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Answers in Gene

Vastet wrote:
Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Quote:
Why would I know or care about every event and name in US history?

 

Only to the extent that I should know about Canadian history.

 

Sure, you probably built a dam somewhere relatively important at some time. Knowledge of that would not do anything for me.

 

Knowing the history of rationalism? Different case.

 

And since your laws have 0 bearing on Canada, I couldn't care less about any of them, or the people involved in them. So don't think this guy is at all special to 99% of the world. Much like that Parks woman, he's irrelevant. Darwin actually did something for everyone.

Darwin wrote a book. In itself it was nothing special. The discoveries that were made from where he started however...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Gauche
atheist
Gauche's picture
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2007-01-18
User is offlineOffline
 I've never seen anybody

 I've never seen anybody shit on Rosa Parks before.


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:That's a tad

jcgadfly wrote:
That's a tad different from "know/learn every event and name in US history".

Are you seriously losing your grasp on reality, or are you just fucking with me... cuz the words in quotations have been my meaning for nearly all of this thread, and I think it would be obvious to most people that they are. I quoted vastet's post with them, and then I said them myself. No, I don't think I could possibly have made it more clear.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Answers in Gene

Vastet wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

 And since your laws have 0 bearing on Canada, I couldn't care less about any of them, or the people involved in them. So don't think this guy is at all special to 99% of the world. Much like that Parks woman, he's irrelevant. Darwin actually did something for everyone.

NAFTA.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
My point is that this

My point is that this so-called special event was special only to people in one country out of 180 or however many countries in the world. Noone else, nowhere else, ever. And it really wasn't all that special even to that country when one considers the state of evolution education in the US today.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:jcgadfly

Kapkao wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
That's a tad different from "know/learn every event and name in US history".

Are you seriously losing your grasp on reality, or are you just fucking with me... cuz the words in quotations have been my meaning for nearly all of this thread, and I think it would be obvious to most people that they are. I quoted vastet's post with them, and then I said them myself. No, I don't think I could possibly have made it more clear.

So you agreed with the meaning of Vastet's words but you disagree with the words themselves?

Interesting...and somehow I'm the one losing my grasp on reality.

What, again, does that have to do with you not knowing (or caring to learn) about a significant person in history? Look up his "Cross of Gold" speech.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
Gauche wrote: I've never

Gauche wrote:

 I've never seen anybody shit on Rosa Parks before.

lmao, this thread is a joke


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Vastet wrote:
My point is that this so-called special event was special only to people in one country out of 180 or however many countries in the world. Noone else, nowhere else, ever. And it really wasn't all that special even to that country when one considers the state of evolution education in the US today.

 

OK, I see your point and it is fully valid. We all have to choose what we are into. For example, I don't really expect that you have the same taste in music as I do. Unless you do but we can have that conversation in some other thread.

 

Where I see the wires getting crossed here is that you only have a name. He is some guy and really, big whoop there.

 

What would make him important enough for you to pay attention to?

 

How about being the first person to prosecute a court case on evolution vs. creation? I don't see where anyone else specified that and it was amiss for me to leave that detail out. Basically, he was the Michael Behe of the 1930's.

 

Granted, that still might not seem all that big of a deal but all the decades before, the discussion was largely in the academic world. However, the Scopes Monkey Trial was where the real public discussion began.

 

Sure, I don't expect the people of Iran to give a shit but for those in the pits of the discussion about why theism is bad, the matter is one that is worth knowing.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


BenfromCanada
atheist
BenfromCanada's picture
Posts: 811
Joined: 2006-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Do christians know that

Do christians know that Inherit the Wind was a satirical look at McCarthyism and not meant to be a biopic? Or are they just stupid?


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:Vastet wrote:p

Kapkao wrote:

Vastet wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

 And since your laws have 0 bearing on Canada, I couldn't care less about any of them, or the people involved in them. So don't think this guy is at all special to 99% of the world. Much like that Parks woman, he's irrelevant. Darwin actually did something for everyone.

NAFTA.

NAFTA is a trade agreement that Canada and the US negotiated in the 80's. It is not an American law that has any bearing on Canada.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"Sure, I don't expect the

"Sure, I don't expect the people of Iran to give a shit but for those in the pits of the discussion about why theism is bad, the matter is one that is worth knowing."

You've given me 0 reason to care. I am in no way affected by this case. It has no bearing on any country but the US. And contrary to popular American belief, you are not the centre of the universe.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:"Sure, I don't

Vastet wrote:
"Sure, I don't expect the people of Iran to give a shit but for those in the pits of the discussion about why theism is bad, the matter is one that is worth knowing." You've given me 0 reason to care. I am in no way affected by this case. It has no bearing on any country but the US. And contrary to popular American belief, you are not the centre of the universe.

 

<snicker>

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
I agree we believe in many

I agree we believe in many fairy tales and live in them. Just look at expansive capitalism, national superiority complex, speculative finances, lottery and so on. 

But that doesn't make them any more real, including gods. It shows we can go a long way believing them, even if they're completely false. 

Btw, I just watched the film Inherit the Wind. Nice film, some my Christian friends should see it. Although, I regret there wasn't anybody like NonStampCollector in that court room, or he'd show some real Bible-bashing and nobody would take Bible seriously in court ever after. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.