"We are a country of God", Glenn Beck. Are we?

100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
"We are a country of God", Glenn Beck. Are we?

 http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/28/glenn.beck.rally/index.html?hpt=T1

It's ordinary fascism to me.  I'm somewhat really scared.  Should I be? 

 


Anonymouse
atheist
Posts: 1687
Joined: 2008-05-04
User is offlineOffline
I can't for the life of me

I can't for the life of me figure out what those people actually want.

Seems more like a big mess, rather than something to be scared of.


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
 I really want you to turn

 I really want you to turn out to be right. 

What I am scared of is that in a few last years, the talking heads like Glenn Beck and St.Rush repeat it over and over again that this country is a Christian nation etc.  This message is getting imprinted in people's heads. At one point in time, which may turn out to be sooner than we anticipate, this message may be added to the constitution to the overwhelming happiness of citizens. 

"At one time it had been a sign of madness to believe that the earth goes round the sun; today to believe that the past is unalterable....

It was as though some huge force were pressing down upon you - something that penetrated inside your skull, battering against your brain, frightening you out of your beliefs, persuading you, almost, to deny the evidence of your senses.  In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it.  It was inevitable that they should make this claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it."

1984, G. Orwell.


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Hint: Pay no attention to

Hint: Pay no attention to that fool Glenn Beck -no one except libertarians take him seriously

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
 Several years ago, I did

 Several years ago, I did exactly that.   Now, they (Glenn&Rush&Hannity&Savage) either attract more people then only libertarians or the number of libertarians (read, modest anarchists) has increased drastically.  

By definition, if you ignore the significance of a 250,000+ heads meeting, you are ignorant.  Hitler was no more than a fool before he came to power.  Well, he remained a fool until his foolish death, but his foolishness did not prevented him from being a one good Fuhrer.

 


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
250k heads or even 25

250k heads or even 25 million heads still doesn't make him significant. He isn't much except an amusing distraction...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
  hope so.see in a few

  hope so.

see in a few years.

 

 


Rich Woods
Rational VIP!
Rich Woods's picture
Posts: 868
Joined: 2008-02-06
User is offlineOffline
Kapkao wrote:Hint: Pay no

Kapkao wrote:

Hint: Pay no attention to that fool Glenn Beck -no one except libertarians take him seriously

 

No we don't Smiling

BTW...has anyone used the phrase "Batshit crazy" yet in this thread?.... for anyone looking for major laughs, i highly reccomend signing for Glenn back's daily newsletter... it's hilarious...

Here's a lighthearted piece i wrote on Beck & Olberman...   http://richwoodsblog.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/the-internet-civil-war/


Realistic_Human
atheist
Realistic_Human's picture
Posts: 21
Joined: 2010-08-28
User is offlineOffline
I think

I think he and people like him use the word "christianity" for ratings and controversy, its sick! And if there was a god, it probably wouldn't want that idiot campaigning for it?

~~Be Real~~


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Rich Woods wrote:No we don't

Rich Woods wrote:

No we don't Smiling

Baaaaaaahhh You're just the exception that proves the rule

 

edit-addendum; allow me to rephrase that!

 

"No one except libertarians, gun freaks, and Tea Partyfolk take him seriously, and even THEN they are in the minority amongst their own!"

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3659
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
100percentAtheist wrote: I

100percentAtheist wrote:

 I really want you to turn out to be right. 

What I am scared of is that in a few last years, the talking heads like Glenn Beck and St.Rush repeat it over and over again that this country is a Christian nation etc. 

.

   Christian nation ?  Well Beck is a practicing Mormon and in the United States the vast majority of mainstream Christian denominations have historically considered Mormons to be a non-christian cult due to their "unorthodox" theology. How's that for irony ? That anti-mormon mentality has probably diminished to some degree but remember the controversy over Mormon politician Mitt Romney ( and critical comments by Baptist preacher / aspiring politician/ talk show host Mike Huckabee, etc ) ?   

   Don't let some stupid Christian rally scare you.  Be more afraid that we will become an Islamic nation facilitated by American political correctness and our pathological fear of criticism.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


ZuS
atheist
ZuS's picture
Posts: 562
Joined: 2009-02-22
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:Don't

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Don't let some stupid Christian rally scare you.  Be more afraid that we will become an Islamic nation facilitated by American political correctness and our pathological fear of criticism.

Don't let some stupid fearmongering about US becoming an Islamic nation scare you. Prozac, you need stronger medicine.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


Kapkao
atheistSuperfanBronze Member
Kapkao's picture
Posts: 4121
Joined: 2010-01-12
User is offlineOffline
ZuS wrote:ProzacDeathWish

ZuS wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Don't let some stupid Christian rally scare you.  Be more afraid that we will become an Islamic nation facilitated by American political correctness and our pathological fear of criticism.

Don't let some stupid fearmongering about US becoming an Islamic nation scare you. Prozac, you need stronger medicine.

Sarcasm... you do know what it is, right?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
100percentAtheist wrote:  

100percentAtheist wrote:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/28/glenn.beck.rally/index.html?hpt=T1

 

It's ordinary fascism to me. I'm somewhat really scared. Should I be?

 

OK, you obviously missed the memo on this one. Allow me to clue you in:

 

If something is so wrong that it can never be right, then it needs to be repeated a hundred thousand times so that people just accept it.

 

If you do not believe me, then check with a guy I worked for like 25 years ago. You will have to google him but you are looking for “K. Andrew Keasler” in Stamford CT, USA. The last time I heard from him, he was doing business under the corporation of his own name.

 

It was his belief that employee footsteps were his property to command. If you went to the fridge to get spinach and did not take the radishes back at the same time, then you were intentionally wasting valuable footsteps.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
(No subject)

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
Beck and Rush are just

Beck and Rush are just entertainers.  I honestly doubt they take themselves seriously or buy their own bullshit.

However, the people listening to them don't often seem to realize that.  I hate the talking heads that exist purely to polarize and rile people up with bullshit.  You listen/watch them and it is literally fallacy, fallacy, lie, lie, hate, hate...over and over again.

And they do make a difference, simply by making people who might have otherwise been moderates into unthinking partisan extremists.

 

 

As an aside, isn't it strange how they go on and on about how we're a Christian nation, but then they say the solution to all our problems is to 'go back to God'?  The whole movement has a heavy basis in this back to basics stuff and I always just want to slap people, the golden years they want to go back to never existed.  We have it better now than at any time in human history (well, maybe we're worse off than the 90's, but I don't think that is what they mean!).

Country songs, politicians and pastors...they all have this lament about the current world and the only solution is to go back to the past.  I think it is enlightening they always talk about going back instead of going forward.  I can't imagine why you would want to live even 50 years ago, you know.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 I actually attended the

 I actually attended the rally, that's why I have been AWOL for the last week and yes there is some cause for concern. Make no mistake, Beck has tapped into a very powerful movement that I predict will be a major player in the next two elections. These are people who historically have not been politically active. They are not the kind of people you usually see at any political rally. They are young families who are extremely concerned about the direction of the country and sincerely believe that the end of America is coming unless they do something. Any politician who ignores or underestimates the political power behind this group is an idiot. While I am sympathetic to many of their hot button issues on the economy, government excess and corruption the move towards religion is extremely concerning.

 

I made no secret that I was an atheist and for the most part people accepted me and were quite friendly. Beck himself is very friendly towards atheists. My concern is that after they win the election and the majority of the people believe their goal was achieved they will go home back to paying their mortgage and not paying attention to politics. That will leave a vacuum for the fundy right to regain power and I have no faith that any of the Christians will make any move to stop them. I don't think Beck even knows the fire he is playing with and by encouraging the religious aspects of the movement I'm afraid that the libertarian ideals will be burned by the wayside.

 

By the way, Virginia wines have come a long way in the last couple of years so if you happen to be driving by D.C. stop in the Virginia vineyards they are pretty darn good and after spending a day in D.C. you will need a drink. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Bahana
atheist
Bahana's picture
Posts: 79
Joined: 2006-08-04
User is offlineOffline
  It's very exclusionary

It's very exclusionary for Glen It's very exclusionary for Glen Beck, or politicians, or anyone who claims to speak for a country, to use references to deities.  He's basically separating himself from americans who lack a belief in a god, or have a different god concept. It's a shame many politicians do not think they can get elected unless they do this.  I always wonder how many of them really are atheists who just say they believe to get elected.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
If one wants to fight big

If one wants to fight big government, I am with them. But the problem is which your friends don't want to accept is that our economic problems are not because of the poor or lazyness. Our problems are because corporate America has a slash and burn and exploit policy and buy off and blackmail government when speed limits are suggested.

If big business wants government off it's back, they need to put less money into their CEOs and marketing and more into their employees and decrease the pay gap and keep jobs here. You cannot tell me that big banks and insurance companies and drug companies give one fuck about anyone but their share holders.

But if Beck is "friendly" to atheists he sure as hell doesn't show it. That entire speech sounded exactly like Hilter invoking God and that the Christians needed to take back their Fatherland.

If the Tea Party want's me to follow it, they would have to drop the bullshit "Only fans of Jesus should hold public office". They would have to stay out of peoples sexual orientation and reproductive rights. And they would have to hold corporate America accountable.

Beck spends far more much time blaming every class except the rich and pretends that the founders wanted all non-Christians to ride at the back of the political bus.

FUCK GLEN BECK. If he is friendly to atheists, then he is a fucking coward. I suspect he isn't unless we are the good house niggers he wants us to be.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:But if Beck is

Brian37 wrote:

But if Beck is "friendly" to atheists he sure as hell doesn't show it. That entire speech sounded exactly like Hilter invoking God and that the Christians needed to take back their Fatherland.

 

Precisely! I also noticed a couple years ago that Rush Limbaugh was talking to a crowd in exact same manner as Nazi propagandists.  He was in a black uniform that enhanced the association.  Curiously they compare Obama and "liberals" to Nazis.

 


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Well Brian, if that is

Well Brian, if that is really how you feel, I would ask that you find your local tea party and show up at one of their meetings. Check the usual sources such as face book and meetup.com to find them or just stop by when you see them on the street corner.

 

You see, they get a bad rap from the ID10T crowd who call them teabaggers and other slurs and imply that only evil republican dudes can be members. In reality, I have found the ones that I know to be quite accepting of others. All that you need really is to be pissed off about how things are going and willing to lend a hand to help change things.

 

Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office. If anyone is scum, we have them in our cross hairs. Seriously, Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) was on the short list before he died in a plane crash. That guy was a fucking idiot just waiting to be taken down.

 

I have stood on the street corner and handed out copies of the constitution to anyone who would take it. OK, it was printed by the John Birch Society but it is still the constitution.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office.  

 

Joining the crowds led by Beck, Limbaugh, and alike folks and at the same time pretending that all this not about getting democrats out of the office and not about helping rich getting richer ... well it does not sound rational to me. Smiling

After all, we can watch the meetings on youtube etc. so what is the point of joining them?

 

 


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Cpt_pineapple's picture
Posts: 5487
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
(No subject)


Tadgh
atheist
Tadgh's picture
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-08-29
User is offlineOffline
Ignoring right-wingnuts like

Ignoring right-wingnuts like Glenn Beck is a foolish and dangerous thing to do. Remember how free and open things were in Weimar Germany? It probably won't be Beck, but all it takes is one charismatic leader, and we won't know who until it's too late. We should take them all seriously, before someone else does.


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
100percentAtheist wrote:  

100percentAtheist wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office.

 

Joining the crowds led by Beck, Limbaugh, and alike folks and at the same time pretending that all this not about getting democrats out of the office and not about helping rich getting richer ... well it does not sound rational to me. Smiling

 

After all, we can watch the meetings on youtube etc. so what is the point of joining them?

 

Well, if it suits you to sit in front of your computer feeling like you are morally superior to others, knock your self out dude. While you do that, there are people out there advancing the idea that America is a Christian nation.

 

If we all do things your way, they win automatically.

 

I choose to get out there and get in the political mix. I am asking the “America is a Christian nation” crowd the hard questions. OK, we are a nation which is largely Christian. Which version of Christianity is the official one?

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well, if it suits you to sit in front of your computer feeling like you are morally superior to others, knock your self out dude. While you do that, there are people out there advancing the idea that America is a Christian nation.

 

If we all do things your way, they win automatically.

 

I choose to get out there and get in the political mix. I am asking the “America is a Christian nation” crowd the hard questions. OK, we are a nation which is largely Christian. Which version of Christianity is the official one?

 

 

My point was about the reason of coming to such meetings.  

Now I am completely agree with your reason.  However, I do not qualify to do what you suggest for several reasons including: 1) I may be forced out of my job if  I get openly atheistic; 2) though it might have sense to ask such question in D.C., but here where I live -the place of 80+% evangelicals - this question would make little sense, and 3) I do not qualify to vote because I am not a US citizen.  So, when things will get really hot, I will make a good rat leaving this Noah's ark. Smiling Sad 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 Why is it when a large

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life. Whether you agree with them or not the tea parties are not primarily composed of a bunch of crazy nuts that want to lynch blacks or kill anyone. Quite the contrary, a racist or fascist is quite likely to be hounded out of these groups. Nor are the people who show up to these events are not ignorant idiots blindly following some "leader". They know what they believe and they know why.  

 

Brian, I have heard your exact sentiments repeated by a number of Tea party folks. Politically the tea party is actually quite diverse, the only real agreement the members have is that corruption and back room deals between politicians and business need to stop hence why "Tea party" candidates don't really fall under the same category. They vary from pure blood libertarians such as Rand Paul and traditional conservatives such as Palin. The latter concerns me especially with Becks focus on religion which will be more likely to attract the traditional conservatives. It would be nice if the libertarians got a bit more power inside the tea party movement. I fear it won't be enough and we will end up with another damn Bush.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Anonymouse
atheist
Posts: 1687
Joined: 2008-05-04
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: Why is

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life.

But aren't those the "arguments" that Beck person likes to use ?


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: Why is

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life. Whether you agree with them or not the tea parties are not primarily composed of a bunch of crazy nuts that want to lynch blacks or kill anyone. Quite the contrary, a racist or fascist is quite likely to be hounded out of these groups. Nor are the people who show up to these events are not ignorant idiots blindly following some "leader". They know what they believe and they know why.  

 

Brian, I have heard your exact sentiments repeated by a number of Tea party folks. Politically the tea party is actually quite diverse, the only real agreement the members have is that corruption and back room deals between politicians and business need to stop hence why "Tea party" candidates don't really fall under the same category. They vary from pure blood libertarians such as Rand Paul and traditional conservatives such as Palin. The latter concerns me especially with Becks focus on religion which will be more likely to attract the traditional conservatives. It would be nice if the libertarians got a bit more power inside the tea party movement. I fear it won't be enough and we will end up with another damn Bush.

That might be part of the problem. There are Tea Party groups that have not been co-opted by the Republicans. Unfortunately, they aren't the ones getting the airtime. They are also not likely to be the ones carrying a corporatist Republican to power.

If Rand Paul is a pure-blood Libertarian then Libertarians scare the hell out of me. I'm not a big fan of repealing the Civil Rights Act or only giving Medicare payments to members of his chosen medical specialty.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well Brian, if that is really how you feel, I would ask that you find your local tea party and show up at one of their meetings. Check the usual sources such as face book and meetup.com to find them or just stop by when you see them on the street corner.

 

You see, they get a bad rap from the ID10T crowd who call them teabaggers and other slurs and imply that only evil republican dudes can be members. In reality, I have found the ones that I know to be quite accepting of others. All that you need really is to be pissed off about how things are going and willing to lend a hand to help change things.

 

Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office. If anyone is scum, we have them in our cross hairs. Seriously, Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) was on the short list before he died in a plane crash. That guy was a fucking idiot just waiting to be taken down.

 

I have stood on the street corner and handed out copies of the constitution to anyone who would take it. OK, it was printed by the John Birch Society but it is still the constitution.

 

Not with idiots like Glen Beck peddling his religious theocracy and corporate anarchy leading the way.

The Democrats are for social equality and a level playing field. Where they fuck up with me is their political correctness. The republicans the poor in their trailers by offering them low paying jobs, convince them that Jesus loves them and make as many babies as you want as long as they can have their light beer and NASCAR and line the pockect of Wal Mart. No thanks.

The Tea party of today has nothing to do with the founders or their intent. They are nothing more than a label change masking the same corporate FOX crap. We have people even in the middle class who don't have jobs, or heath care.

The three class system is not a bad thing, but in America it is lopsided and our open market has been hijacked by corporate America which is making more and more people of the middle and poor class indentured slaves.

If the Glen Becks of the world have their way we will end up looking like the cast system in India. An open market doesn't equal a fair market.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Answers in

Brian37 wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well Brian, if that is really how you feel, I would ask that you find your local tea party and show up at one of their meetings. Check the usual sources such as face book and meetup.com to find them or just stop by when you see them on the street corner.

 

You see, they get a bad rap from the ID10T crowd who call them teabaggers and other slurs and imply that only evil republican dudes can be members. In reality, I have found the ones that I know to be quite accepting of others. All that you need really is to be pissed off about how things are going and willing to lend a hand to help change things.

 

Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office. If anyone is scum, we have them in our cross hairs. Seriously, Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) was on the short list before he died in a plane crash. That guy was a fucking idiot just waiting to be taken down.

 

I have stood on the street corner and handed out copies of the constitution to anyone who would take it. OK, it was printed by the John Birch Society but it is still the constitution.

 

Not with idiots like Glen Beck peddling his religious theocracy and corporate anarchy leading the way.

The Democrats are for social equality and a level playing field. Where they fuck up with me is their political correctness. The republicans the poor in their trailers by offering them low paying jobs, convince them that Jesus loves them and make as many babies as you want as long as they can have their light beer and NASCAR and line the pockect of Wal Mart. No thanks.

The Tea party of today has nothing to do with the founders or their intent. They are nothing more than a label change masking the same corporate FOX crap. We have people even in the middle class who don't have jobs, or heath care.

The three class system is not a bad thing, but in America it is lopsided and our open market has been hijacked by corporate America which is making more and more people of the middle and poor class indentured slaves.

If the Glen Becks of the world have their way we will end up looking like the cast system in India. An open market doesn't equal a fair market.

 

If what you say is true, we haven't had a Democrat in this country since FDR.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Answers in

Brian37 wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Well Brian, if that is really how you feel, I would ask that you find your local tea party and show up at one of their meetings. Check the usual sources such as face book and meetup.com to find them or just stop by when you see them on the street corner.

 

You see, they get a bad rap from the ID10T crowd who call them teabaggers and other slurs and imply that only evil republican dudes can be members. In reality, I have found the ones that I know to be quite accepting of others. All that you need really is to be pissed off about how things are going and willing to lend a hand to help change things.

 

Really, we have democrats, atheists, jews and libertarians among us. The thing that matters at this point is not getting the evil democrats out of office so much as getting the evil career politicians out of office. If anyone is scum, we have them in our cross hairs. Seriously, Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) was on the short list before he died in a plane crash. That guy was a fucking idiot just waiting to be taken down.

 

I have stood on the street corner and handed out copies of the constitution to anyone who would take it. OK, it was printed by the John Birch Society but it is still the constitution.

 

Not with idiots like Glen Beck peddling his religious theocracy and corporate anarchy leading the way.

The Democrats are for social equality and a level playing field. Where they fuck up with me is their political correctness. The republicans the poor in their trailers by offering them low paying jobs, convince them that Jesus loves them and make as many babies as you want as long as they can have their light beer and NASCAR and line the pockect of Wal Mart. No thanks.

The Tea party of today has nothing to do with the founders or their intent. They are nothing more than a label change masking the same corporate FOX crap. We have people even in the middle class who don't have jobs, or heath care.

The three class system is not a bad thing, but in America it is lopsided and our open market has been hijacked by corporate America which is making more and more people of the middle and poor class indentured slaves.

If the Glen Becks of the world have their way we will end up looking like the cast system in India. An open market doesn't equal a fair market.

 

I agree with you, the issue is a labeling issue.  The Tea Party has a lot of people interested in it, but there is no coherent message or goal.   Everyone is mad about something, but they are not mad about the same things and no-one agrees on what should be done to fix the things they are mad at.

And the worst part is the movement is being increasingly defined by right wing talking heads like Beck, Rush and Palin.  I don't buy Libertarianism personally, but I respect it somewhat.  However, I don't see how you can keep libertarianism central to the Tea Party movement and integrate all the people trying to get a slice of the pie right now...something has to break.  I'm guessing either the Tea Party as an organization will break and fragment, or it will be co-opted by angry evangelicals and the dogmatic portion of the right wing political machine.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Anonymouse wrote:Beyond

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life.

But aren't those the "arguments" that Beck person likes to use ?

No, that would be more of a Hannity thing. It is wrong and useless when used by both sides. 

 

 

JC- yeah we scare a lot of people. Most people seem afraid to let go of their government security blanket. Maybe someday we will grow out of it but in the meantime it would be nice to move at least a little in that direction. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life.

But aren't those the "arguments" that Beck person likes to use ?

No, that would be more of a Hannity thing. It is wrong and useless when used by both sides. 

 

 

JC- yeah we scare a lot of people. Most people seem afraid to let go of their government security blanket. Maybe someday we will grow out of it but in the meantime it would be nice to move at least a little in that direction. 

The middle and poor classes wouldn't need government protectionism if Corporate America wasn't blackmailing the public with threats of moving jobs overseas, paying workers less and less, and creating crappy jobs, and they wouldn't need government protectionism if Wall Street didn't insist on government welfare itself and buy off politicians to look the other way when they pull their slash and burn anarchy.

Are there lazy people? Yes. But the right wants everyone to believe that if they don't wipe their ass with a 100 bill they are losers. And not all people in the middle and poor class are lazy.

"Pursuit of happiness" doesn't mean pursuit of wealth. The First Amendment is an anti-trust law to prevent monopolies of power. The right sells the lie that only people with money and wealth mean anything and they convince credulous people that if the rich have no taxes we will all be better off. No, all that does is make them richer. BP raped the gulf and now the citizens are suffering because of their "let me do whatever I want".

Cheny's and Bush tried to convince the world that the oil from the Iraq war would pay for it, and Cheny's budies made out like bandits.

Not to mention big banks, car companies, drug companies.

I work a low paying job. It is an honest job and if Beck or any of the talking head jackasses at FUCKS NEWS ever ate where I work I would spit and shit and pee in their food.

I don't have a problem with wealth. I like the guy who owns where I work. He is down to earth and doesn't judge me for what I do and gives me credit for having a brain.

I have a problem with jaded people who think that they are more important because they have more, or because they hold a certain label or religion. Wealth is not the only thing that people can find happiness in and Christianity isn't the only religion in this country. This country started from a nation of people from somewhere else, and it started with people of all classes.

I see the middle class and poor classes being shoved aside because of our government being paid off by corporate greed and the Right wing sells gods and guns to credulous people who don't even see that the party that says they are going to "take this country back"

TO WHAT?

IF you want people not to ask for government protectionism, then the class that has the most power needs to stop asking for it itself, stop the slash and burn anarchy and stop bilking the tax payers and sticking us with the bill when they fuck up.

Our economy is a race to the bottom. The cost of living is making it harder and harder for people to make ends meet and NONE OF THAT has to do with taxing the wealthy. It has to do with "NO RULES" and has been a market driven by making a buck any way you can to maximize profits at the expense of the people.

If you want less rules, which sounds nice on paper, then it is up to you to do the right thing otherwise when people ask for protection from government, what would you have them do?

Beck is nothing but a salesman and showman and the only person he cares about is himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:The middle and

Brian37 wrote:

The middle and poor classes wouldn't need government protectionism if Corporate America wasn't blackmailing the public with threats of moving jobs overseas, paying workers less and less, and creating crappy jobs, and they wouldn't need government protectionism if Wall Street didn't insist on government welfare itself and buy off politicians to look the other way when they pull their slash and burn anarchy.

Are there lazy people? Yes. But the right wants everyone to believe that if they don't wipe their ass with a 100 bill they are losers. And not all people in the middle and poor class are lazy.

"Pursuit of happiness" doesn't mean pursuit of wealth. The First Amendment is an anti-trust law to prevent monopolies of power. The right sells the lie that only people with money and wealth mean anything and they convince credulous people that if the rich have no taxes we will all be better off. No, all that does is make them richer. BP raped the gulf and now the citizens are suffering because of their "let me do whatever I want".

Cheny's and Bush tried to convince the world that the oil from the Iraq war would pay for it, and Cheny's budies made out like bandits.

Not to mention big banks, car companies, drug companies.

I work a low paying job. It is an honest job and if Beck or any of the talking head jackasses at FUCKS NEWS ever ate where I work I would spit and shit and pee in their food.

I don't have a problem with wealth. I like the guy who owns where I work. He is down to earth and doesn't judge me for what I do and gives me credit for having a brain.

I have a problem with jaded people who think that they are more important because they have more, or because they hold a certain label or religion. Wealth is not the only thing that people can find happiness in and Christianity isn't the only religion in this country. This country started from a nation of people from somewhere else, and it started with people of all classes.

I see the middle class and poor classes being shoved aside because of our government being paid off by corporate greed and the Right wing sells gods and guns to credulous people who don't even see that the party that says they are going to "take this country back"

TO WHAT?

IF you want people not to ask for government protectionism, then the class that has the most power needs to stop asking for it itself, stop the slash and burn anarchy and stop bilking the tax payers and sticking us with the bill when they fuck up.

Our economy is a race to the bottom. The cost of living is making it harder and harder for people to make ends meet and NONE OF THAT has to do with taxing the wealthy. It has to do with "NO RULES" and has been a market driven by making a buck any way you can to maximize profits at the expense of the people.

If you want less rules, which sounds nice on paper, then it is up to you to do the right thing otherwise when people ask for protection from government, what would you have them do?

Beck is nothing but a salesman and showman and the only person he cares about is himself.

 

I mostly agree with your post.

One little point.  According to Milton Freeman, the economist who started all this deregulation stuff, it is the nature of an unregulated capitalistic free market to eliminate the middle class.  Free market unregulated capitalism will kill what middle class is left in the US - and any other country that tries to follow suit.  Adam Smith said it as well - if the "captains of industry" - he didn't know the word capitalism as it hadn't been invented yet - are allowed to collude, the "invisible hand" will no longer have an effect.  BECAUSE all those "captains of industry" will kill any competition and fix prices and wages amongst themselves.  Which is exactly what we are seeing in our economy today - mega-monopolies which control the congress through "contributions".  Which the Supreme Court has declared legal because corps are "individuals" and therefore are entitled to free speech which includes buying as many congressmen as you can afford.

For the rest, I believe you are correct.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Why is it when a large group of people gather the other side instantly jumps to accusations of "fascism" and "HITLER!!!!" I mean really if that is the biggest argument you can come up with get a life.

But aren't those the "arguments" that Beck person likes to use ?

No, that would be more of a Hannity thing. It is wrong and useless when used by both sides. 

 

 

JC- yeah we scare a lot of people. Most people seem afraid to let go of their government security blanket. Maybe someday we will grow out of it but in the meantime it would be nice to move at least a little in that direction. 

But Rand Paul doesn't want to let go of the government security blanket when it comes to his non-political job. Doesn't that make you wonder (even a little) that he's a libertarian who still wants his Medicare payments?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 @ BrianWhat you say is

 @ Brian

What you say is true about some on the right and certainly the Republican party but the Republican party is not the same as the tea party. As for Beck, he is talking four hours a day so I'm not going to argue with you what he believes. Listen to his show or not I don't really care. I can talk about what I believe and what many in the Tea party believe and why they have become politically active.

 

What we have now is NOT a free market. The government and big business are in bed together and that is a huge problem. The easiest way to have a super successful business today is to kiss a politicians ass and get government money. If the government isn't passing out money and therefore choosing winners or losers that problem is greatly diminished. One of the main problems is our tax code and I don't mean the tax rates themselves. I mean the confusing thousands of pages that allow politicians to put in loop holes that only apply to a handful of companies in exchange for favors or money.

 

I believe governments role ought to be stopping collusion, monopolies and ensuring a free market. But right now they don't. Most of the "regulation" that is being passed is written BY the large corporations and is designed to make it tougher for a small company to compete. For example, in healthcare many of the small insurance companies are selling out to United Healthcare and other behemoths because in a few years they will be ran out of business. 

 

We can argue about exactly what regulations need to be in place to prevent things like another BP oil spill and I would be perfectly happy making a few concessions here and there. You will find Tea partiers all over the map on these kind of issues. Personally, I tend to ere on the side of less regulation because I hold to the idea that government is inherently incompetent and corrupt. That kind of regulation isn't the main problem. The big problem is the cronyism that is taking place in our government with both parties. That is what the Tea party has been standing against and why many inside the Republican party establishment don't support them. 

 

@ JC

Yeah, the man accepted medicare patients and got pennies on the dollar of his regular rates. What an evil bastard, can you imagine treating a patient who is on the government dole? Doesn't he know they are an inferior species and should be left to go blind? No one should accept medicare patients, we should deny them all health care. Don't vote for someone so evil they actually care about treating patients.

 

Seriously, try going through life without accepting any government money or money from someone receiving government money, it is so pervasive it is almost impossible. It took a hundred years to get where we are now and will take decades to cut it back. Rand Paul doesn't support stopping everything overnight too many people are reliant on the government dole and have nowhere else to go. Even I don't support cutting it all off overnight and I don't particularly care about people. It will take years to rebuild the charities and reduce dependency, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: @

Beyond Saving wrote:

 @ Brian

What you say is true about some on the right and certainly the Republican party but the Republican party is not the same as the tea party. As for Beck, he is talking four hours a day so I'm not going to argue with you what he believes. Listen to his show or not I don't really care. I can talk about what I believe and what many in the Tea party believe and why they have become politically active.

 

What we have now is NOT a free market. The government and big business are in bed together and that is a huge problem. The easiest way to have a super successful business today is to kiss a politicians ass and get government money. If the government isn't passing out money and therefore choosing winners or losers that problem is greatly diminished. One of the main problems is our tax code and I don't mean the tax rates themselves. I mean the confusing thousands of pages that allow politicians to put in loop holes that only apply to a handful of companies in exchange for favors or money.

 

I believe governments role ought to be stopping collusion, monopolies and ensuring a free market. But right now they don't. Most of the "regulation" that is being passed is written BY the large corporations and is designed to make it tougher for a small company to compete. For example, in healthcare many of the small insurance companies are selling out to United Healthcare and other behemoths because in a few years they will be ran out of business. 

 

We can argue about exactly what regulations need to be in place to prevent things like another BP oil spill and I would be perfectly happy making a few concessions here and there. You will find Tea partiers all over the map on these kind of issues. Personally, I tend to ere on the side of less regulation because I hold to the idea that government is inherently incompetent and corrupt. That kind of regulation isn't the main problem. The big problem is the cronyism that is taking place in our government with both parties. That is what the Tea party has been standing against and why many inside the Republican party establishment don't support them. 

 

@ JC

Yeah, the man accepted medicare patients and got pennies on the dollar of his regular rates. What an evil bastard, can you imagine treating a patient who is on the government dole? Doesn't he know they are an inferior species and should be left to go blind? No one should accept medicare patients, we should deny them all health care. Don't vote for someone so evil they actually care about treating patients.

 

Seriously, try going through life without accepting any government money or money from someone receiving government money, it is so pervasive it is almost impossible. It took a hundred years to get where we are now and will take decades to cut it back. Rand Paul doesn't support stopping everything overnight too many people are reliant on the government dole and have nowhere else to go. Even I don't support cutting it all off overnight and I don't particularly care about people. It will take years to rebuild the charities and reduce dependency, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

 

Perhaps, Beyond.

The principle is still "We need to get rid of Medicare....except for paying me and my brother eye surgeons".  He doesn't even have the decency to not screw over the rest of his medical brethren.

Don't pull the "Do you want to let people go blind?" crap on me. See, I'm one of those guys that believes having Medicare for everybody and keeping private insurers from screwing over people would save money. I believe we could pay for it by getting put of the stupid wars we're engaged in. I see Paul hasn't got a problem fighting the big, bad, hasn't been a threat for awhile and was never a threat until we armed them Taliban.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
All you have to do to get

All you have to do to get someone to vote for the right wing is to babble on about impractical utopias based on Christianity and "Lifestyles of the rich and famous".

I am so sick of the right wing selling the lie that if someone suggests a speed limit they are anti-car. Our economy is not one of building, but has become nothing but a giant ponzy scheme based on Casino tactics with no rules.

And the way they convince the Redneck bible thumper Palin yeast infected moose lovers, is to use social issues like gays and abortion and God to distract them from the fact that they cant pay their bills anymore than those "evil" liberals.

We would have less problems in our society if a family could support itself on one job. We would have less health problems if people were not slaves to work. We would have less crime if our kids were educated and the parents could spend time with them.

I have co-workers who bust their asses and live in nice neighborhoods who are one bill away from disaster. I have co-workers who are poor, who bust their asses and have no choice but to ask for government help because they cant buy any health care.

This is class warefar and the megga rich want to blackmail the government to protect their profit margins.

 

AGAIN, this is not an attack on the open market. It is an attack on a monopoly of power which has squeezed the middle and poor classes out of being able to make ends meet.

 

The nanny state is a result of big business, not the middle and poor classes. The more they jack prices up and fix them, the more they put profit over people, the worse things will get and we will end up looking like a third world country.

There is no reason a gallon of gas should cost 2:50. There is no reason a pound of meat should cost 5 bucks. There is no reason a college degree should cost 100,000 dollars.  There is no competition to keep the cost of living down and the monopoly the 2 percent has over our government long term is screwing us.

 

It takes all three classes to make our economy work and I see nothing being done by our government to prevent corporate anarchy and the right wing has continued to succesffully distract us with social issues and we will simply end up maintaining the status quo.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:We would have

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less problems in our society if a family could support itself on one job.

You can- spend less, invest more.

 

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less health problems if people were not slaves to work.

Really? Just don't be a slave then but I still have my health problems. You really don't have to work that hard if you don't want to. Maybe I need to write a book about how to make a living while being lazy.

 

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less crime if our kids were educated and the parents could spend time with them.

Yep, I agree. The public school system is a national disgrace thank you government.

 

Brian37 wrote:

I have co-workers who bust their asses and live in nice neighborhoods who are one bill away from disaster. I have co-workers who are poor, who bust their asses and have no choice but to ask for government help because they cant buy any health care.

Maybe they shouldn't be living in such nice neighborhoods. If you are bouncing paycheck to paycheck cancel the damn cable, get a jalopy (granted a lot more expensive now because of "cash for clunkers" those assholes) and buy a cheaper house. I live in motels and not always nice ones so if you live in a nice neighborhood don't expect me to pay for your healthcare. Well now I'm living in a nice cabin rental on a lake, thank you crashing tourist industry! Hope I don't get too spoiled before moving back to roach motel. But I still don't want to pay for their healthcare. 

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

This is class warefar and the megga rich want to blackmail the government to protect their profit margins.

AGAIN, this is not an attack on the open market. It is an attack on a monopoly of power which has squeezed the middle and poor classes out of being able to make ends meet.

Again I agree. The main problem is big business in bed with big government. That is the main thing that is uniting the Tea Party. Attend one of their events and say just that and the whole room will cheer you.

 

Brian37 wrote:

The nanny state is a result of big business, not the middle and poor classes. The more they jack prices up and fix them, the more they put profit over people, the worse things will get and we will end up looking like a third world country.

I think all of us are to blame. And while we might not be headed for third world we are certainly headed for a huge crash. Ponzi schemes can't last forever.

 

Brian37 wrote:

There is no reason a gallon of gas should cost 2:50. There is no reason a pound of meat should cost 5 bucks. There is no reason a college degree should cost 100,000 dollars.  There is no competition to keep the cost of living down and the monopoly the 2 percent has over our government long term is screwing us. 

 

No competition in gas or meat?????? How many gas stations are in your town? The reason we use gasoline for our cars is because it is so much cheaper than other fuel sources we could use. And the farm industry is one of the most highly regulated and heavily subsidized industries in the US and one of my personal pet peeves.

College is a waste of money but few people actually pay the sticker price, only those of us who were unfortunate enough to have parents who made over 100k but said parents were unwilling to pay for our college.

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

It takes all three classes to make our economy work and I see nothing being done by our government to prevent corporate anarchy and the right wing has continued to succesffully distract us with social issues and we will simply end up maintaining the status quo.

 

Hence the rise of the Tea party and not the Republican party establishment. Although, I am afraid the status quo will remain. I don't have that much faith that the Tea party will really be successful but I have also never seen people this angry about the idiots in our government. If ever there was a chance at actually changing the system it is this year. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Perhaps,

jcgadfly wrote:

Perhaps, Beyond.

The principle is still "We need to get rid of Medicare....except for paying me and my brother eye surgeons".  He doesn't even have the decency to not screw over the rest of his medical brethren.

Don't pull the "Do you want to let people go blind?" crap on me. See, I'm one of those guys that believes having Medicare for everybody and keeping private insurers from screwing over people would save money. I believe we could pay for it by getting put of the stupid wars we're engaged in. I see Paul hasn't got a problem fighting the big, bad, hasn't been a threat for awhile and was never a threat until we armed them Taliban.

Yeah, he might turn out to be just another jerk politician but his father has done a decent job mostly sticking to his principles and I believe he would do a better job than most. But that is like saying I believe manure stinks less than skunk. 

 

I believe medicare has been an unmitigated disaster. The government attempts to cope with increasing costs by simply not paying the doctors and thereby increase costs for everyone who actually pays their whole bill. So either you expect the doctors to unwillingly work for free or they will stop accepting medicare patients. Already, some private practices have stopped accepting medicare patients and many hospitals lose millions of dollars treating medicare patients. The Mayo clinic has a test program going on in Arizona where they stopped accepting medicare patients. Talk to anyone who works in billing for any doctor and ask what they think of medicare. So who is getting screwed more? The person who pays for their own health insurance (or pays cash) and the doctor gets paid everything that is owed or the person who uses medicare and the doctor is forced to work for pennies on the dollar then raise fees on other patients? Remember, medicare is not income based like medicaid, many people with medicare are perfectly capable of paying cash or buying insurance. While ultimately I would like to see most if not all government social programs eliminated I have far less problems with those designed for the truly destitute. Medicare and social security are not for the destitute so I have my biggest problems with them. 

 

The amount we have spent on the wars is pennies compared to what we currently owe and will owe in the future for medicare but generally I agree with you, we waste a ton of money on our military the wars could have been over within months. Yet another example of how the government is ridiculously inefficient.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less problems in our society if a family could support itself on one job.

You can- spend less, invest more.

Not the easiest thing to do on 20k a year. My "investments" tend more to food, water and heat than to stocks and bonds (thiugh I do have some of those).

 

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less health problems if people were not slaves to work.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Really? Just don't be a slave then but I still have my health problems. You really don't have to work that hard if you don't want to. Maybe I need to write a book about how to make a living while being lazy.

I would likely buy that book. I'd just have to find time between work and classes to read the thing.

Brian37 wrote:

We would have less crime if our kids were educated and the parents could spend time with them.

Yep, I agree. The public school system is a national disgrace thank you government.

Agreed. Unfortunately the current solutions are more expensive private schools or homeschooling by people who have no credentials but love Jesus

Brian37 wrote:

I have co-workers who bust their asses and live in nice neighborhoods who are one bill away from disaster. I have co-workers who are poor, who bust their asses and have no choice but to ask for government help because they cant buy any health care.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Maybe they shouldn't be living in such nice neighborhoods. If you are bouncing paycheck to paycheck cancel the damn cable, get a jalopy (granted a lot more expensive now because of "cash for clunkers" those assholes) and buy a cheaper house. I live in motels and not always nice ones so if you live in a nice neighborhood don't expect me to pay for your healthcare. Well now I'm living in a nice cabin rental on a lake, thank you crashing tourist industry! Hope I don't get too spoiled before moving back to roach motel. But I still don't want to pay for their healthcare.

 Do you object to paying for yours or does my insurance have to go up to cover you? As for motels - living in Motel 6 or Hyatt Regency?

Brian37 wrote:
 

This is class warefar and the megga rich want to blackmail the government to protect their profit margins.

AGAIN, this is not an attack on the open market. It is an attack on a monopoly of power which has squeezed the middle and poor classes out of being able to make ends meet.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Again I agree. The main problem is big business in bed with big government. That is the main thing that is uniting the Tea Party. Attend one of their events and say just that and the whole room will cheer you.

 I don't see the tea parties you describe where I live. I see the ones full of old people and college kids saying "keep government out of my Social Security and Stafford loans"

Brian37 wrote:

The nanny state is a result of big business, not the middle and poor classes. The more they jack prices up and fix them, the more they put profit over people, the worse things will get and we will end up looking like a third world country.

Beyond Saving wrote:

I think all of us are to blame. And while we might not be headed for third world we are certainly headed for a huge crash. Ponzi schemes can't last forever.

Bartcop's Rule #2 - If someone makes a "mistake" that puts money in their pocket expect them to make that "mistake" over and over.

Brian37 wrote:

There is no reason a gallon of gas should cost 2:50. There is no reason a pound of meat should cost 5 bucks. There is no reason a college degree should cost 100,000 dollars.  There is no competition to keep the cost of living down and the monopoly the 2 percent has over our government long term is screwing us. 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

No competition in gas or meat?????? How many gas stations are in your town? The reason we use gasoline for our cars is because it is so much cheaper than other fuel sources we could use. And the farm industry is one of the most highly regulated and heavily subsidized industries in the US and one of my personal pet peeves.

College is a waste of money but few people actually pay the sticker price, only those of us who were unfortunate enough to have parents who made over 100k but said parents were unwilling to pay for our college.

If you look at all the gas stations in any town (at least in my area) they all charge the same amount - maybe $.01-$.02 different. Gas wars don't happen anymore - I miss them. On farm subsidies, i agree wholeheartedly. Paying people not to grow stuff is asinine.

 

Brian37 wrote:
 

It takes all three classes to make our economy work and I see nothing being done by our government to prevent corporate anarchy and the right wing has continued to succesffully distract us with social issues and we will simply end up maintaining the status quo.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Hence the rise of the Tea party and not the Republican party establishment. Although, I am afraid the status quo will remain. I don't have that much faith that the Tea party will really be successful but I have also never seen people this angry about the idiots in our government. If ever there was a chance at actually changing the system it is this year. 

The tea parties would be more useful if they could find a way to get rid of the more affluent representatives who are just bitching about taxes.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Tadgh
atheist
Tadgh's picture
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-08-29
User is offlineOffline
Tea-baggers

Beyond Saving wrote:
...the only real agreement the members have is that corruption and back room deals between politicians and business need to stop hence why "Tea party" candidates don't really fall under the same category. They vary from pure blood libertarians such as Rand Paul and traditional conservatives such as Palin. The latter concerns me especially with Becks focus on religion...

That, too is a part of the problem. If the entire party's platform centers around getting experienced politicians out and people like Rand Paul or Sarah Palin in, then I fail to see how they hope to accomplish anything even remotely beneficial, for themselves or for anyone else. I would much rather have Obama in office with an even stronger democratic majority in congress, than any committed christian (or, even worse - Mormon) conservative moron. It certainly seems that all these people do is bash Obama, and that has been the persistent, monotonic song they've been singing since before he was even elected. many, if not most of their objections (Kenyan birth, really?) are ludicrous at best and give the appearance of being based on nothing more than prejudice. So much so that any legitimate objections they might have are easily overlooked and just as easily dismissed.

They may have legitimate gripes, but their proposed solutions - Paul, Palin, and (just shoot me) Beck - are many times worse.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Tadgh wrote:Beyond Saving

Tadgh wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
...the only real agreement the members have is that corruption and back room deals between politicians and business need to stop hence why "Tea party" candidates don't really fall under the same category. They vary from pure blood libertarians such as Rand Paul and traditional conservatives such as Palin. The latter concerns me especially with Becks focus on religion...

That, too is a part of the problem. If the entire party's platform centers around getting experienced politicians out and people like Rand Paul or Sarah Palin in, then I fail to see how they hope to accomplish anything even remotely beneficial, for themselves or for anyone else. I would much rather have Obama in office with an even stronger democratic majority in congress, than any committed christian (or, even worse - Mormon) conservative moron. It certainly seems that all these people do is bash Obama, and that has been the persistent, monotonic song they've been singing since before he was even elected. many, if not most of their objections (Kenyan birth, really?) are ludicrous at best and give the appearance of being based on nothing more than prejudice. So much so that any legitimate objections they might have are easily overlooked and just as easily dismissed.

They may have legitimate gripes, but their proposed solutions - Paul, Palin, and (just shoot me) Beck - are many times worse.

 

This brought up some experiences.  I was living in central Washington state and working for a small county department.  Which means you get to know the local county commissioners and mayors and so on.  This area was a hot bed for personal property rights.  And a number of local politicians were on the band wagon.

1. Commissioner thinks personal property rights should be paramount.  Until he gets involved with some requests for intervention from some of his constituents.  After a few times of going out, looking at the property, and reviewing what the nasty county bureaucrats wrote up about the property - his new position was "It was a swamp when you bought it, it's still a swamp."  Or, "Jeeze, you can't develop this and sell it to some unsuspecting chump.  THERE'S NO WATER!"

2. Local mayor wants to loosen the land use requirements for his community.  He is stunned when the first thing he has to do is swear in - and the oath includes some phrases to the effect of "supporting the laws and regulations of the State of Washington and the United States Government."  All those laws he was going to abolish?  They were state or federal regulations.  Like it or not, the federal laws take precedent over state laws which tops county which tops city, town, or unincorporated rural lands.  He finally resigned, since he didn't feel he could enforce state and federal laws for his city.

My point: New politicians do not understand the laws and why the laws are in place. 

We have land use laws so that the people who buy the house, land, or what have you know what they are getting and aren't ripped off by the seller.  No, it isn't straightforward.  Particularly if you are buying out in the boondocks.  Water availability, water rights, septic or dry well, gray water systems, seasonal run off, flooding, geology, etc, etc, you better be highly educated before you go property shopping.  And most people aren't.  So they have to rely on the land developer telling the truth or on the county/city inspectors keeping the developer and realtor and building contractor honest.

How do you know when a land developer is lying?  His lips are moving.

The first law of land development?  There is always a greater fool.  (As in the developer was a fool for getting involved, but he can always find someone even more foolish to buy him out.)

That is only a small sample of why there are the laws we have.  And there is a way to get the bureaucracy working with you, not against you.  You walk in and tell someone whose back and feet hurt from waiting on the public all day how they are nasty bureaucratic jerks and see how far you get.  Walk in and smile, ask after their day and commiserate about working with the public and you will get much further much faster.  Works if you want a building permit or a vehicle title adjustment, too.   Some new politicians just don't get it.  The ones who have been around the block a time or two know how to butter up the help and get what needs to be done, done.

I don't think the ones who butter up the lobbyists should stay in.  And I know that list is getting bigger every day.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


mellestad
Moderator
Posts: 2927
Joined: 2009-08-19
User is offlineOffline
@CJ:  That is a great

@CJ:  That is a great point.  I realize many laws are stupid or overzealous or underzealous or just plain wrong...but what I think many libertarians miss is that the bulk of them were made for a reason, and that reason was good enough to convince people they were needed at the time.

It is naive to think things will purr along just fine if we turn the nation into a Randian utopia overnight.  Over and over I talk to Libertarians who think what we need is to wipe out all 95% of Federal and State law, then everything will be perfect.  I don't buy it.

 

That isn't to say that every Libertarian is a slash and burn pseudo anarchist, but as you know I live in central Washington close to where you lived, and most of the groups around here are that way.

In my misbegotten youth I pushed for Ron Paul in the presidential elections.  I don't think I was stupid, I just think I was naive.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
mellestad wrote: @CJ:  That

mellestad wrote:

@CJ:  That is a great point.  I realize many laws are stupid or overzealous or underzealous or just plain wrong...but what I think many libertarians miss is that the bulk of them were made for a reason, and that reason was good enough to convince people they were needed at the time.

It is naive to think things will purr along just fine if we turn the nation into a Randian utopia overnight.  Over and over I talk to Libertarians who think what we need is to wipe out all 95% of Federal and State law, then everything will be perfect.  I don't buy it.

 

That isn't to say that every Libertarian is a slash and burn pseudo anarchist, but as you know I live in central Washington close to where you lived, and most of the groups around here are that way.

In my misbegotten youth I pushed for Ron Paul in the presidential elections.  I don't think I was stupid, I just think I was naive.

 

You (or I) may think a law is not perfect in some fashion.  Perhaps it was put in place when technology was not as advanced as it is now.  And most laws were literally put together by committee.  People of many different opinions and viewpoints got together to create the law.  It is the way our system is - legislative not dictatorial.  So every law is a compromise - which is by no means a dirty word.  And so not everyone is happy with every law.  It is inevitable.

If you take the famous Lincoln quote about fooling people and substitute making people happy, it is just as true.

Quote:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

 

And in my misbegotten youth, our family was very interested in Ross Perot.  If government were run like a business, if all these regulations that get in the way of making money were removed, if taxes were reduced, life could be perfect.  That lasted until my father-in-law attended one of the local meetings.  One guy showed up in a Bentley that had a golf cart hitched on and painted to color coordinate with a matching golf club set.  This convinced my father-in-law that some people were not paying enough taxes.  And so we dropped Mr. Perot before his presidential campaign collapsed.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Cj, can i borrow that

Cj, can i borrow that story?

I've a friend who is a "national sales tax Tea Party " person who believes that taxing the rich is punishing success.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Cj, can i

jcgadfly wrote:

Cj, can i borrow that story?

I've a friend who is a "national sales tax Tea Party " person who believes that taxing the rich is punishing success.

 

Sure.  Try not to mangle it too much.

Yeah, I've heard that before - the person who grew up as a trust fund baby really worked hard for the money.  Or the one who managed to sell their stocks high.  In my experience those who work hard can pull themselves up one socioeconomic notch.  The ones who jump two or more levels are usually incredibly lucky.

Pick a service you take advantage of every day - roads for instance.  Compute the cost of building the roads for your daily commute.  Determine how much in taxes you pay to support the building and maintenance of the roads.  Odds are you will not pay back what you use in your lifetime.  If this is not a good example for you, try something else - state university costs to educate you vs what you pay in tuition.  I have yet to find a community service that I have taken advantage of that I can pay for my use of that service in my lifetime given the amount of taxes I pay.


 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
cj wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Cj,

cj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Cj, can i borrow that story?

I've a friend who is a "national sales tax Tea Party " person who believes that taxing the rich is punishing success.

 

Sure.  Try not to mangle it too much.

Yeah, I've heard that before - the person who grew up as a trust fund baby really worked hard for the money.  Or the one who managed to sell their stocks high.  In my experience those who work hard can pull themselves up one socioeconomic notch.  The ones who jump two or more levels are usually incredibly lucky.

Pick a service you take advantage of every day - roads for instance.  Compute the cost of building the roads for your daily commute.  Determine how much in taxes you pay to support the building and maintenance of the roads.  Odds are you will not pay back what you use in your lifetime.  If this is not a good example for you, try something else - state university costs to educate you vs what you pay in tuition.  I have yet to find a community service that I have taken advantage of that I can pay for my use of that service in my lifetime given the amount of taxes I pay.

 

 

It would be a cut & paste with as much attribution as I can give.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Ken G.
Bronze Member
Posts: 1352
Joined: 2008-03-20
User is offlineOffline
100percentAtheist wrote:We are a country of God,Glenn Beck

 Do you mean Glenn"the rodeo clown-the former morning zoo jock" Beck.What comes out of his mouth is nothing but Non-Sense,I can't believe that he has followers,but then again look at Religion.It makes you wonder !!!!!

Signature ? How ?


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
Ken G. wrote: Do you mean

Ken G. wrote:

 Do you mean Glenn"the rodeo clown-the former morning zoo jock" Beck.What comes out of his mouth is nothing but Non-Sense,I can't believe that he has followers,but then again look at Religion.It makes you wonder !!!!!

 

I think it does not matter that Glenn Beck or any of his talking friends are not too rational, smart, or capable of sustainable leadership.  It is important that they brew a cocktail of ignorance, hatred, and anger among large groups of people.  Then, as someone already told in this thread, it will take just one real leader and a few years to undo America, everything will be ready for him.