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Presuppositionalist
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TAG

The Transcendental Argument for God attempts to show that all systems of thought other than Christian theism collapse into unintelligibility.

I'm going to use this thread to administer TAG therapy to the sick of the forum. If you feel like coming in for a checkup, make a response to this OP that outlines your worldview, including any clashes with the Christian worldview.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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 My worldview is not to

 My worldview is not to engage in treatments with people who argue in defense of TAG.  It is more beneficial to argue with inanimate objects.  

I notice you still have never responded to our page on TAG.

- Brian Sapient


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Nobody could respond to my

Nobody could respond to my modal TAG argument:

(1) The laws of logic are in all possible worlds.

(2) The laws of logic are ontologically dependent on a mind.

:. An intelligent being is in all possible worlds.

 


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Sapient wrote: My worldview

Sapient wrote:

 My worldview is not to engage in treatments with people who argue in defense of TAG.  It is more beneficial to argue with inanimate objects.  

Noted.

Quote:
I notice you still have never responded to our page on TAG.

I just skimmed it. I was not impressed. I will read it more thoroughly at some point, and perhaps respond.

At any rate, there is no obligation to refute every article on the internet that addresses some argument before making a thread about the argument.

This thread has a specific purpose. Talking too much about another article threatens that purpose. So this is the last I'll say about Todangst's article here.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Abeyance of irrational thought...

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Nobody could respond to my modal TAG argument:

(1) The laws of logic are in all possible worlds.

(2) The laws of logic are ontologically dependent on a mind.

:. An intelligent being is in all possible worlds.

 

No one could respond...

What does this tell you?

Do you assume that the frequenters of these forums are intellectually incapable of assailing your argument, or does it speak to something a bit deeper...

Theists and Atheists will never agree on the validity of the TAG argument; I would suppose that both feel it beneath them...and rightly so. This type of intellectual-lite supposition delineates neither an intelligent listener nor a less than farcical speaker. While I respect the rights of theist to argue their worldview in these pages, I fail to see how the TAG argument is anything other than the same, tired, rehash of second-rate logic that has existed since the dawn of the middle ages.


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:Do

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Do you assume that the frequenters of these forums are intellectually incapable of assailing your argument

Yes.


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Do you assume that the frequenters of these forums are intellectually incapable of assailing your argument

Yes.

Well you certainly made an ass out of u.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Do you assume that the frequenters of these forums are intellectually incapable of assailing your argument

Yes.

Yet when they do, you completely ignore the arguments and more or less tell them you agree to disagree, as you did with Bob. So yeah people have responded, given lots of arugments against it and for the most part you just end up ignoring their posts.


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Trenne Al Dente Argument for the Existence of the FSM

Can't seem to fall asleep. Damn insomnia!

What's that? Someone posted about TAG? YAWWN  (That was fast. I can barely stay awake now... Had a hunch epicdean10 was a plant... what agnostic asks about internet memes and TAG in the space of two posts? Sounds fishy....)

 

Oopsy! There, I fixed it for ya:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

The Transcendental Argument for God attempts to show that ... Christian theism collapse[s] into unintelligibility.

...and does so very convincingly.

Warning: If you're not prepared to be stuck on the event horizon of a black hole, circling it endlessly at light-speed, you might want to skip engaging presuppositionalists touting TAG. They are too braindead to see their own basic errors, and will gladly waste as much of your time as possible repeating them over and over again.

Me? I'm in it for kicks.

Quote:
I'm going to use this thread to administer TAG therapy to the sick of the forum. If you feel like coming in for a checkup, make a response to this OP that outlines your worldview, including any clashes with the Christian worldview.

Sorry, you claimed you could show that "all other" worldviews collapse. Your 'proof' either covers all other worldviews or it does not. My specific worldview is irrelevant.

After reading this, I had a flash of insight. May I present....

My newest recipe:

The Trenne Al Dente Argument for the Existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the TA-DA!-FSM!

Trenne is a triangular pasta that exists. Trenne is best served al dente by nature, independent of shelf space, cooking time, ingredients, or human appetites. It is not a product of the supermarket (shelf space, cooking time, ingredients), because if the supermarket were to disappear, trenne would still be best served al dente. Trenne is not the product of human appetites, because human appetites are all different (not everybody likes Italian, after all!) But, since trenne is served al dente in restaurants everywhere, and not dependent on human appetites, it must be a monstrous al dente appetite that is serving them! Ta-da! Flying Spaghetti Monster!

If you liked that, wait till you hear my Pastalogical Argument!

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Fortunate_Son wrote:Nobody

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Nobody could respond to my modal TAG argument:

(1) The laws of logic are in all possible worlds.

(2) The laws of logic are ontologically dependent on a mind.

:. An intelligent being is in all possible worlds.

Considering that modal logic is a recent human invention,

(1) Modal logic does not exist in some possible worlds.

(2) The modal TAG argument is ontologically dependent on retarded presuppositionalists.

:. It's possible that if you hear a modal TAG argument, you're talking to a retarded presuppositionalist.

 

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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:No

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

No one could respond...

What does this tell you?

 

He gets a kick out of this bizarre shit. That's what it tells me.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Why do theists

 

blithely continue to insist our hindsight-based human laws of logic exist in all possible worlds when we barely comprehend the true nature of the only one we can be in? We're running the nature of the universe/multiverse now? That's bullshit. The only thing contingent to TAG is the theist's monkey brain.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

blithely continue to insist our hindsight-based human laws of logic exist in all possible worlds when we barely comprehend the true nature of the only one we can be in? We're running the nature of the universe/multiverse now? That's bullshit. The only thing contingent to TAG is the theist's monkey brain.

 

Does Ray Comfort's mustache excite you?


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Ummmmmmmmm.

 

Not so much, FS. Not of a fan of the right reverend doctor Ray Comfort. I think his sidekick is sort of cute though, in a boyish way...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Fortunate_Son wrote: Does

Fortunate_Son wrote:

 

Does Ray Comfort's mustache excite you?

Would it be wrong if it did?


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

...attempts...


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Nobody

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Nobody could respond to my modal TAG argument:

(1) The laws of logic are in all possible worlds.

(2) The laws of logic are ontologically dependent on a mind.

:. An intelligent being is in all possible worlds.

 

 

When you know who that intelligent being is let us know.


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StrawberryJam wrote:When you

StrawberryJam wrote:

When you know who that intelligent being is let us know.

God is by definition an intelligent being who exists in all possible worlds.


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Fortunate_Son

Fortunate_Son wrote:

StrawberryJam wrote:

When you know who that intelligent being is let us know.

God is by definition an intelligent being who exists in all possible worlds.

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

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 among scientists

 among scientists mathematicians and physicists are the most likely to believe in God because they deal with absolutes.  


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Eloise wrote:That's a very

Eloise wrote:

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors.  There are no conditions under which God could not exist. 

 


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Eloise

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Eloise wrote:

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors.  There are no conditions under which God could not exist. 

 

Now I know you're not talking about the God of the Bible - he was created by the external factor of the minds of men.

I look forward to finding out which god you mean.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Fortunate_Son wrote:Eloise

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Eloise wrote:

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors. 

What scripture defines the Judeo-Christian God this way?

P.S. sounds like a description of Brahman

 

Fortunate_Son wrote:

There are no conditions under which God could not exist. 

 

So that would provide 'God' can exist in all possible worlds, so how do you provide that 'God' does.

 

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scuppers wrote: among

scuppers wrote:

 among scientists mathematicians and physicists are the most likely to believe in God because they deal with absolutes.  

 

Science isn't absolutist.  It has actually found itself wrong on many occasions, so it accepts its own potential for error.

 


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Eloise

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Eloise wrote:

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors.  There are no conditions under which God could not exist. 

 

 

Translation: "God is a thinking thing that always existed / never existed. God must exist." That's not much of a definition, plus it doesn't help you with the whole debate thing.

 

Suppose there was another sentient being whose existence is not contingent on external factors (let's call it the snizzlewit), but is incapable of making anything or communicating with anything. Is the snizzlewit God? Suppose there were a million snizzlewits. Are they all gods?


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Eloise wrote:Fortunate_Son

Eloise wrote:

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Eloise wrote:

That's a very strange definition of God. Please Explain.

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors. 

What scripture defines the Judeo-Christian God this way?

The scripture does not contain a glossary of terms. 

This idea of God actually can be arrived at by philosophical inquiry alone, but here is what scripture does tell us:

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aog7.htm

Quote:
So that would provide 'God' can exist in all possible worlds, so how do you provide that 'God' does?

I've already offered you my modal TAG argument.  I'm going to start new threads for the other proofs.


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I want you to

 

Fortunate_Son wrote:
The laws of logic are in all possible worlds.

Prove This.


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Sinphanius wrote:Prove

Sinphanius wrote:

Prove This.

Okay.

The laws of logic are self-evident or axiomatic.  For example, you did not discover the principle that "nothing can both be and not be at the same time" when you observed things in nature that were what they were and not what they were not.  That would just make it inductive and it is not inductive.

Anything which is axiomatic has no potential to be falsified. 

Therefore, the laws of logic by their nature have no potential to be falsified.

By asking me to "prove" that the laws of logic are always true, you are applying logic since proof necessitates logic.  If you do not accept that logic is always true, then why would you use logical terms in order to argue against my position?


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Eloise wrote:So that would

Eloise wrote:

So that would provide 'God' can exist in all possible worlds, so how do you provide that 'God' does.

 

I think he means kind of the opposite. It's not that god could exist, it's that he couldn't not exist no matter the circumstance. It is a bit odd to define god that way. But as a rhetorical ploy that is pretty good. It is defining Fortunate_son's personal beliefs as certainly flawlessly correct on this matter.

By definition we are wrong guys. Let's pack up and shut down the site. It was a good run, but Fortunate_son has defined his views as the ones that have to be correct. Apparently epistemology works that way. Who knew?

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Really?

FS wrote:
For example, you did not discover the principle that "nothing can both be and not be at the same time" when you observed things in nature that were what they were and not what they were not

I contend that this and all other laws of logic are deduced from observations of reality.

As Evidence, I site that young children do not develop a concept of identity until several years after they are born.  Likewise, they do not understand that objects continue to exist outside of their perception of them.  This can be demonstrated by taking a suitably young child and placing them before a 'theater' showing one object in that theater, closing the curtain, adding another object or taking the initial object away or switiching it for something else, openning the curtain, and judging their response.  Sufficiently young children will not react, while slightly older children will react with confusion.

 

And I use logic because it is a useful mental construct of humanity that can aid in determinig correct thinking, nothing more.  Logic only dictates whether or not a conclusion is sound based on the evidence and ideas used to arrive at it, never does it actually determine if that conclusion is correct.  That cannot be done without observation and greater evidence.

After all, to the ancient civilizations of the world, the conclusion that the Earth was Flat was entirely logical.  However it was still wrong.

This is why we don't have philosophers determine how the universe works, we have Scientists for that.

 

P.S. Your post was just a big series of assertions, none of which actually adressed my issue.  Try again.

 

@Jormungander; Blast it all, why bother studying logic and philosophy when your opponent can just assert they are correct and be done with it.  Sigh, <Kicks Can> Well, let's close down the site.  See ya Everyone!

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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Fortunate_Son wrote:This

Fortunate_Son wrote:

This idea of God actually can be arrived at by philosophical inquiry alone,

Let's have that then too, please?

Fortunate_Son wrote:

but here is what scripture does tell us:

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aog7.htm

So I take it you mean to say that 'eternal'/'everlasting' implies not contingent on any external factors, cause it sure doesn't mean not contingent on any external factors.  If so, can you also fill in the gap as to what makes everlasting imply not contingent on any external factors.

Quote:

Quote:
So that would provide 'God' can exist in all possible worlds, so how do you provide that 'God' does?

I've already offered you my modal TAG argument.  I'm going to start new threads for the other proofs.

I don't understand why you're answering me this way. You made this assertion:

Fortunate_Son wrote:

God is by definition an intelligent being who exists in all possible worlds.

Now justify it.

Quote:

God is a sentient being whose existence is not contingent on any external factors. 

There are no conditions under which God could not exist.

Only establishes God possibly existing all possible worlds, but you say you've used it to define God as 'existing in all possible worlds'? Why?

 

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

The Transcendental Argument for God attempts to show that all systems of thought other than Christian theism collapse into unintelligibility.

I'm going to use this thread to administer TAG therapy to the sick of the forum. If you feel like coming in for a checkup, make a response to this OP that outlines your worldview, including any clashes with the Christian worldview.

My worldview is that we are all insignificant in our own way, but that we may become significant within our own lifetime, but it requires more than some silly book that not even your messaiah wrote.

Your therapy does not interest me at all...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:I

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

I fail to see how the TAG argument is anything other than the same, tired, rehash of second-rate logic that has existed since the dawn of the middle ages.

Why start there? Why not go further back? In... either the mesolithic, or paleolithic, ceremonial burial was developed... bada boom, bada bing.... and after about 45,000-10,000 years ... people started refining the logic behind this. They still didn't refine it in such a way as to be beyond reproach... after so many eons, and to this very day.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Eloise wrote:Let's have that

Eloise wrote:

Let's have that then too, please?

I've already proven the existence of God. 

Quote:
So I take it you mean to say that 'eternal'/'everlasting' implies not contingent on any external factors, cause it sure doesn't mean not contingent on any external factors.

An eternal being, if existent, would have to exist in all possible worlds.  To presume that there are possible worlds where the being could not exist would be presuming that this being has to potential to cease to exist, which would contradict the concept of eternal.  Hence, this being would be necessary, not contingent

Quote:
Now justify it.

I did. 

Quote:
Only establishes God possibly existing all possible worlds, but you say you've used it to define God as 'existing in all possible worlds'? Why?

This is addressed in the modal ontological argument and the modal TAG argument.  We'll discuss it in those threads.


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Sinphanius wrote:I contend

Sinphanius wrote:

I contend that this and all other laws of logic are deduced from observations of reality.

HA!  This is too easy:

 

DEDUCE - to derive as a conclusion from something known or assumed; infer

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deduce

 

Logic is the process of proper inference, therefore you would already have to be applying the laws of logic in order to make inferences from your observation.

 


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Here we go again...

FS wrote:
Logic is the process of proper inference, therefore you would already have to be applying the laws of logic in order to make inferences from your observation.


And this is also too easy. If Logic is the process of 'proper' inference, then there should likely be a form of 'improper' inference that does not use these rules, and just as a statement can be logical but wrong, so too can a statement be illogical and correct, thus these 'improper' inferences can eventually lead to the system of 'proper' inference known as logic. These 'proper' systems of inference will be selected by virtue of their better suitedness to aid mankind in survival due to their generally more accurate results.

Mental Evolution, as it were.

Once again, if you are trying to show that a person never doesn't know about the laws of logic, I have already shown that statement to be incorrect, and I actually sited some evidence. Unless you want to continue ignoring that evidence and hiding yourself from it like the last theist I debated Logic with did.


 

 

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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Sinphanius wrote:If Logic is

Sinphanius wrote:

If Logic is the process of 'proper' inference, then there should likely be a form of 'improper' inference that does not use these rules, and just as a statement can be logical but wrong, so too can a statement be illogical and correct

Logic is the very fundamental mechanism by which we correct ourselves!  How could you say that we derive logic by discovering it through being illogical?  The very process of codifying it after we incidentally discover it through our illogic still requires a guiding post of rationality as opposed to irrationality.  For example, if what you say is true, then we had the innate capacity to correct ourselves in the face of new observations.  This requires, first of all, a pre-awareness that whatever is true cannot be false and vice versa.... and it also requires us to realize that whatever we observe something to be, it is what it is and it is not what it is not.  This is intrinsic in the idea of self-correction. 

But aside from that, your model does not work because if it is true that we derived logic through being illogical, then what reason do we have to believe that we properly corrected ourselves? 

Improper inference, by its very nature, can never lead someone to truth.  You may posit a conclusion that happens to be true, but that is not by virtue of the inference that you made.  You will never come to realize truth until you've made proper inferences. 

Quote:
thus these 'improper' inferences can eventually lead to the system of 'proper' inference known as logic.

How? 

Quote:
These 'proper' systems of inference will be selected by virtue of their better suitedness to aid mankind in survival due to their generally more accurate results.

In other words, mankind, through a rational process, selected something that he felt would benefit him because he realized, from the beginning, that there was a real distinction between true and false, right and wrong, A and ~A... he had the pre-realization that [(p-->q) & p]--->q   ..... in other words, he knew the axioms of logic and developed formal systems built around them.

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Once again, if you are trying to show that a person never doesn't know about the laws of logic, I have already shown that statement to be incorrect, and I actually sited some evidence. Unless you want to continue ignoring that evidence and hiding yourself from it like the last theist I debated Logic with did.

"Know" is a fuzzy term.  I never claimed that we always know the laws of logic, in the sense that we are able to articulate them by virtue of their a priority and necessity.  I actually believe that the fallen nature for man accounts for why (and you are an example of this) people tend to think illogically

What I would claim is that there is a structure to our experience which requires the application of specific axioms.  Otherwise, we would never be able to close the gap between perception and knowledge because the things which we are given in sensation would not be coherent to us.  For that to happen, we need a conceptual apparatus which allows us to comprehend the things which we perceive.  This is why axioms cannot be derived from sense experience.  They inhere in us, even if we cannot articulate them directly.  Thus, if someone denies the law of non-contradiction, they are doing so even when they presume the law to be true, but the nature of man will tend to muddle this realization.


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Hi Fortunate

Fortunate_Son wrote:

I've already proven the existence of God. 

Was this proof the proof that god exists in all possible worlds because he has to exist in them for them to exist?

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Quote:he realized, from the

Quote:

he realized, from the beginning

 

You don't 'realize' something you knew from the start.  You learn something that you didn't know beforehand.


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Fortunate_Son wrote:But

Fortunate_Son wrote:

But aside from that, your model does not work because if it is true that we derived logic through being illogical, then what reason do we have to believe that we properly corrected ourselves? 

We have some reasons, none of them absolute but enough to instil confidence that, kept at arms length, logic and science are the direction of 'proper' reasoning with all that it implies. Key example- technological progress, language and politics have expedited our arrival at high rates of survival of the species.

Organisation of mental experience pays off instantly, that is why it evolved, we're doing ok thanks to it , that is why we know it is reliable.

 

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I am what I am Not.

Quote:
Logic is the very fundamental mechanism by which we correct ourselves! How could you say that we derive logic by discovering it through being illogical? The very process of codifying it after we incidentally discover it through our illogic still requires a guiding post of rationality as opposed to irrationality. For example, if what you say is true, then we had the innate capacity to correct ourselves in the face of new observations. This requires, first of all, a pre-awareness that whatever is true cannot be false and vice versa.... and it also requires us to realize that whatever we observe something to be, it is what it is and it is not what it is not. This is intrinsic in the idea of self-correction.

Actually, no it doesn't, because self correction need not have as its goal the persuit of truth, merely the persuit of survival. This would open it up to evolution and natural selection, which neither require minds nor rational processes, being essentially just trial and error until you find something that works, contrast it with something that doesn't work, and in so doing both establish the law of non-contradiction, and advance the species.

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But aside from that, your model does not work because if it is true that we derived logic through being illogical, then what reason do we have to believe that we properly corrected ourselves?

No reason at all. This is why people still study logic and come out with different and often wildly contradictory schools of logic.
Expanding on this, and continuing As Eloise said, we actually do have some reason to suspect that we are at the very least on the correct heading, however we have no absolute reason to suspect we are absolutely or even slightly correct in any of our understanding of the universe.
This is the most basic premise of the entire scientific method, and it is this understanding that has led science to supercede both philosophy and logic as our method of determining the nature of reality.
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Improper inference, by its very nature, can never lead someone to truth. You may posit a conclusion that happens to be true, but that is not by virtue of the inference that you made. You will never come to realize truth until you've made proper inferences.

Perhaps, but you just admitted that someone can just randomly think up the truth, completely divorced from rational or 'proper' inferrences. Thus the so-called 'axioms' of logic might have just been dreamed up one day, completely out of the blue, and they worked so well that we just stuck with it.

However I contend your assertion that improper inferences cannot lead to truth. Were one to follow their improper inferences to an improper conclusion, were that conclusion correct, it would still be correct, even if improper, and the improper inferences would still have led the person there.

As an example, were I to state that the earth grows flatter the wider a view one takes of it, thus the earth must be round, I would have reached a correct and truthful conclusion through illogical and improper inferences. I agree that this is not true by virtue of the inference I made, however that does not change the fact that an improper inference led to truth.  

In Truth, I would not say that any truth is vindicated by the inferences that allowed one to arrive at it, but rather that all truth is vindicated by it being demonstrable, and logic, although a quaint way of passing the time and discussing interesting scenarios, is ultimately of little use in the modern world, especially as science delves further into the nature of the universe, and discovers that so much of its workings are in fact illogical according to our traditional modes of thought.
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How?

Trial and Error? Process of Elimination? Random Guess?
Not accepting a pathetic Argument from Ignorance as Fact? 
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In other words, mankind, through a rational process, selected something that he felt would benefit him because he realized, from the beginning, that there was a real distinction between true and false, right and wrong, A and ~A... he had the pre-realization that [(p-->q) & p]--->q ..... in other words, he knew the axioms of logic and developed formal systems built around them.

Wrong, mankind no more consciously selected for or understood his own burgeoning rationality than we did our opposable thumbs. Rationality and Logic Works, and provides tangible benefits, thus it was selected for innately by virtue of Natural Selection and Evolution.

Since then, Rationality and Logic have become so focal in our lives and so important for our survival, that it has become difficult for humanity to even imagine not possessing these qualities. However the failure of modern man to imagine a being without a concept of logic does not mean that said being could not exist.
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"Know" is a fuzzy term. I never claimed that we always know the laws of logic, in the sense that we are able to articulate them by virtue of their a priority and necessity. I actually believe that the fallen nature for man accounts for why (and you are an example of this) people tend to think illogically.

So people can live without understanding the laws of logic? Would this not mean that people have to be taught the laws of logic, and thus the laws of logic are not intrinsicly bound into the human mind?

And yet still you ignore the evidence I have brought to the table. To be blunt, your little dances through logic are of no use to you, I have the evidence, I win.
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What I would claim is that there is a structure to our experience which requires the application of specific axioms. Otherwise, we would never be able to close the gap between perception and knowledge because the things which we are given in sensation would not be coherent to us. For that to happen, we need a conceptual apparatus which allows us to comprehend the things which we perceive. This is why axioms cannot be derived from sense experience. They inhere in us, even if we cannot articulate them directly. Thus, if someone denies the law of non-contradiction, they are doing so even when they presume the law to be true, but the nature of man will tend to muddle this realization.

I disagree with this as well. Bacteria lack a mind which can process logical thought, and yet they are capable of understanding and comprehending their surroundings. It is true that their perception is limitted, and that ours is generally greater by virtue of our more developped senses and minds, which then do necessitate a greater framework with which to make judgements, however that does not mean the laws of logic are not still derived. Once again, I have the evidence. Young Children do not comprehend the laws of logic, they must discover them through the course of their youth.

Of Course, all of the most basic laws of logic are also physical properties of the Universe*, thus it is quite simple to derive them, and children arrive at the basic ones fairly quickly. Furthermore, I can easily suggest that the reason one cannot deny the Law of Non-Contradiction* is because this concept is inextricably tied into the universe. Humanity has merely codified a natural property and expanded upon it, long has it actually been such a property.

*Except where they're not/Except when they Can; which happens generally in any principle with the word 'Quantum' in front of it. CONFOUND YOU HEISENBURG!
 

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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Sinphanius wrote:Actually,

Sinphanius wrote:

Actually, no it doesn't, because self correction need not have as its goal the persuit of truth, merely the persuit of survival. This would open it up to evolution and natural selection, which neither require minds nor rational processes, being essentially just trial and error until you find something that works, contrast it with something that doesn't work, and in so doing both establish the law of non-contradiction, and advance the species.

Okay.  So without logic, how are we able to distinguish that which works from that which does not work?  Why can't that which works also be that which does not work?

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No reason at all.

Okay.  Then I am going to declare myself the winner of this debate because according to my logic, you are wrong.

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Expanding on this, and continuing As Eloise said, we actually do have some reason to suspect that we are at the very least on the correct heading, however we have no absolute reason to suspect we are absolutely or even slightly correct in any of our understanding of the universe.

How do we know that correctness is not incorrectness?

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As an example, were I to state that the earth grows flatter the wider a view one takes of it, thus the earth must be round, I would have reached a correct and truthful conclusion through illogical and improper inferences.

You did not reach the truth through the improper inferences!  You made improper inferences but then happened upon the truth such that you were able to make a proper inference and determine that your previous inferences were not proper. 

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I agree that this is not true by virtue of the inference I made, however that does not change the fact that an improper inference led to truth.

No it did not!  That's like saying that my alarm going off led to me making my coffee in the morning.  There was absolute no connection. 

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discovers that so much of its workings are in fact illogical according to our traditional modes of thought

Examples?

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Trial and Error? Process of Elimination? Random Guess?
Not accepting a pathetic Argument from Ignorance as Fact?

Right.  Using logic.

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Wrong, mankind no more consciously selected for or understood his own burgeoning rationality than we did our opposable thumbs.

Where did I disagree with this?

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So people can live without understanding the laws of logic?

No, you did not read what i wrote.

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Would this not mean that people have to be taught the laws of logic, and thus the laws of logic are not intrinsicly bound into the human mind?

Nope.  They are intrinsically bound into the human mind.

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And yet still you ignore the evidence I have brought to the table. To be blunt, your little dances through logic are of no use to you, I have the evidence, I win.

Sorry, but science is enslaved to philosophy.  You cannot use the scientific method to prove that logic is true.  It has never been done and you will never be able to demonstrate that this is possible.

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I disagree with this as well. Bacteria lack a mind which can process logical thought, and yet they are capable of understanding and comprehending their surroundings.

They do not understand anything.  Just because something acts does not mean that it knows.   

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Young Children do not comprehend the laws of logic, they must discover them through the course of their youth.

Yes they do.  They are able to comprehend the things they perceive, which is allowed by the most basic assumptions.

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Of Course, all of the most basic laws of logic are also physical properties of the Universe*, thus it is quite simple to derive them

Okay.  Where in the universe is the law of non-contradiction located?

(Seriously, debating logic with scientists is too easy.  They falter everytime for the same reason.)


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Quote:Okay.  Where in the

Quote:
Okay.  Where in the universe is the law of non-contradiction located?

(Seriously, debating logic with scientists is too easy.  They falter everytime for the same reason.)

 

Except he explicitly included the heisenberg uncertainty principle as an example, and you ignored it.


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Okay. 

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Okay.  So without logic, how are we able to distinguish that which works from that which does not work?

Prior to learning to think rationally, our natural inborn intuition and ability to learn, which we now know that we inherit as humans from evolution.

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  Why can't that which works also be that which does not work?

Sometimes it is. Some ideas work better than others.

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How do we know that correctness is not incorrectness?

At the base, more correct is distinguished from less correct by its ability to make better predictions. See: Pragmatism and Prediction

 

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:I

 This thread is bad and you should feel bad.


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natural wrote:Okay.  So

natural wrote:

Prior to learning to think rationally, our natural inborn intuition and ability to learn, which we now know that we inherit as humans from evolution.

I'm asking you:  How are we able to distinguish that which works from what which does not work if we not already rational?  Making the distinction is already applying the law of non-contradiction!  In order to have the ability to learn, we would already have to know logic.  Otherwise, we did not actually learn anything.

Furthermore, if logic is just the result of instinct or evolution, then there is absolutely no reason to trust it.  Since different minds often contradict one another, it could be that what you believe in illogical is actually logical... and that what you believe works is actually what does not work and that we are less evolved than we should be. 

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Sometimes it is. Some ideas work better than others.

Okay.

Read what I said really carefully.

Why is it the case that what works (A) cannot also be that which does NOT work (~A)?

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At the base, more correct is distinguished from less correct by its ability to make better predictions. See: Pragmatism and Prediction

How do you know that which has the ability to make better predictions is not also that which does not have the ability to make better predictions?


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Fortunate_Son wrote:Why is

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Why is it the case that what works (A) cannot also be that which does NOT work (~A)?

I think you may be the one not reading carefully, Fortunate_Son. Natural said -- Sometimes it is.

Which, incidentally, leads directly into answering your last question to me.

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Fortunate_Son wrote:natural

Fortunate_Son wrote:

natural wrote:

Prior to learning to think rationally, our natural inborn intuition and ability to learn, which we now know that we inherit as humans from evolution.

I'm asking you:  How are we able to distinguish that which works from what which does not work if we not already rational?  Making the distinction is already applying the law of non-contradiction!  In order to have the ability to learn, we would already have to know logic.  Otherwise, we did not actually learn anything.

I assure you that when I was a newborn baby, I did not know logic. Instead, my human brain inherited the evolved capacity to learn from the experiences of the environment, and the natural ability of intuition which allows me to apply what I've learned in a practical way.

I'm able to distinguish what works from what doesn't because that's part of my natural inborn intuition and learning ability. My brain is naturally, constantly making predictions (both bad and good) about future experiences, and then noticing when those predictions are realized through experience. Whatever concepts happen to make better predictions are automatically reinforced with a little jolt of "Ah ha!" and whatever concepts make worse predictions either fade away, or are discouraged with a jolt of "Oops!" This simple mechanism is built in to us from birth. Some instincts are hard-wired, such as fearing certain things or recognizing faces or the sucking response. These things exist because they worked in the evolutionary past, and were inherited. They do not require 'knowing logic', they only require 'whatever works good enough for survival'. Logic is a symbolic system invented by humans.

Here's an obvious question for you: If everyone is inherently logical, why do we see so many examples of illogicality in humans?

Here's another one: If logic does not need to be learned, then why is it that when we teach people logic, they learn to be more logical?

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Furthermore, if logic is just the result of instinct or evolution, then there is absolutely no reason to trust it.

First, it's not the sole result of instinct and evolution, it's also the result of trial-and-error and cultural transmission. Second, there's no reason to trust it *blindly*, but there is good reason to trust it: Because it works. It has worked in the past, and it will likely work in the future.

Quote:
  Since different minds often contradict one another, it could be that what you believe in illogical is actually logical...

Here's another question for you: If everyone is logical, then why do different minds often contradict each other? Worse, why does the same mind often contradict itself?

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and that what you believe works is actually what does not work

Probably wouldn't survive very long if that were the case, would I?

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and that we are less evolved than we should be.

Define 'should' in the context of evolution. Without mentioning anything supernatural.

Quote:
Quote:
Sometimes it is. Some ideas work better than others.

Okay.

Read what I said really carefully.

Why is it the case that what works (A) cannot also be that which does NOT work (~A)?

Eloise was right. I said, sometimes it is.

Again, you have this idea that logic maps onto nature perfectly. It doesn't.

Rarely is something in nature True vs. False, especially when it comes to practical ideas that are being tested if they 'work'. Instead, some ideas work really well (make good, fast, accurate, and reliable predictions), and some ideas work less well, and some ideas don't work at all (they either make bad predictions or they make no predictions at all).

Newton's laws are not capital-T True, they are small-t true. If actual, practical truth were binary/boolean, then when Einstein's relativity came along we would have to entirely reject Newton's laws as being False. But we don't. We still use Newton's laws all the time, because while they are not True, they are true. They work, they make pretty good predictions, accurately, reliably, and quickly. In some cases, they actually work better than relativistic equations, because they are simpler and can thus be used more quickly, with no appreciable decline in accuracy or reliability. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Sometimes Newton's laws work, and sometimes they don't. Most things in life are this way. Try to fit that into your 'logic'. In fact, logic itself is one of those things that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Try reasoning logically with a crying baby.

Quote:
Quote:
At the base, more correct is distinguished from less correct by its ability to make better predictions. See: Pragmatism and Prediction

How do you know that which has the ability to make better predictions is not also that which does not have the ability to make better predictions?

Memory and context. I try things, if they work, I remember them, if not, I forget them. When something that used to work seems not to work anymore, I look around to see if the context has changed. If I can figure out (intuition) what's changed, I can either modify the idea, or simply remember that it can only be used in certain contexts.

Babies can do this naturally from birth, it does not require any learning (in fact, it's a *type* of learning). It doesn't require an understanding of logic, either. It just happens automatically.

Sometimes (actually, often), even our intuitions fail. They are not perfectly logical either. This is how, for example, superstitions form. You try something, and notice that it 'worked', when in reality it was just coincidental, and then you repeat the idea over and over again to try to get it to 'work' again. We can even fool ourselves that such superstitions really *do* work very well. For example, prayer.

It is *because* our intuitions are imperfect, not entirely logical, that we developed systems of logic in the first place. They allow us to correct, improve, and extend our basic intelligence in many circumstances.

Here's another question for you: If humans are perfectly logical, then why are there so many different systems of logic in existence? Why do eastern philosophers use 'yin yang' style logic, which is not even a formal system? Why is there modal logic, first-order logic, predicate logic, fuzzy logic, dialectical logic (and many brands of that as well), etc.? You would think that if we're all so inherently logical, that at least we would come up with the exact same system of logic that works in all situations.

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TAG fails for the same

TAG fails for the same reason Fortunate_Son is so easily taken in by it. It is the masked man fallacy. It posits that logic exists (that is, matter and energy behave in coherent, predictable ways), and also posits that mind is required for logic (logic this time the conceptual abstraction of the ways in which matter and energy behave predictably and coherently). There is a quick substitution of "logic" in the first sense (the coherent, predictable interaction of matter and energy) with logic in the second sense (the concept of logic in our own skulls), and a quick non sequitur suggesting god must've always been there for the concept of logic to always have existed. You get a logical fallacy two-fer.

There is nothing that amazing about us being able to figure out that reality behaves in a coherent, predictable manner. Hell, my dog does that every time I throw her a ball and she catches it unerringly in her mouth. Does that mean Roscoe understands Newton's Laws? No. Does it mean that nature behaves in a way consistent with Newtons Laws? Yes.

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Eloise wrote:Fortunate_Son

Eloise wrote:

Fortunate_Son wrote:

Why is it the case that what works (A) cannot also be that which does NOT work (~A)?

I think you may be the one not reading carefully, Fortunate_Son. Natural said -- Sometimes it is.

Which, incidentally, leads directly into answering your last question to me.

You are living testimony that simply because one possesses a gigantic forehead does not automatically entail that s/he has a large brain.


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You are further evidence of

You are further evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Quote:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it".

QFT

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