Another beautiful morning brought to you courtesy of theism

Subdi Visions
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Another beautiful morning brought to you courtesy of theism

Jakarta Ritz, Mariott

theism sure makes the world a better place, dontcha think?

 

The story as posted on Yahoo.

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush


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A salaam aleikem, my

A salaam aleikem, my brother! Just moslems being moslems, doing what moslems do.

 

Death cult, join or die.

 

They remind me of the Necromongers and their UnderVerse from Chronicles of Riddick.

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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Seriously

Abu Lahab wrote:

 

They remind me of the Necromongers and their UnderVerse from Chronicles of Riddick.

 

Dude, did you actually go there?  Now, go to your room and think about what you've done wrong.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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Nero wrote:Abu Lahab

Nero wrote:

Abu Lahab wrote:

 

They remind me of the Necromongers and their UnderVerse from Chronicles of Riddick.

 

Dude, did you actually go there?  Now, go to your room and think about what you've done wrong.

 

Is it too late to say "Sorry"?

Actually, Nero,  I'm not. I loved the movie and thought the comparison of Necromongers and moslems to be spot on.

 

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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:3


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Subdi Visions wrote:Jakarta

Subdi Visions wrote:

Jakarta Ritz, Mariott

theism sure makes the world a better place, dontcha think?

 

The story as posted on Yahoo.


Rational people, convinced about a logical, causal nature of the universe must not believe, that this behavior comes suddenly out of nothing. This is not theism, it's extremism and it's result of systematic, long-termed injustice. Or do you think that suicide bombers built Alhambra or the Blue Mosque? The justice or injustice decides, what chapters of their holy books the theists choose to practice. Reading Mein Kampf doesn't magically make people racists, and reading Koran doesn't change them into suicide bombers. Reading Bible also doesn't make them missionaires. These extremistic countries are under a heavy attack from the predacious, more economically developed nations. This made them what they are - violent, furious fanatics. And only through justice the underlying cause may be cured. And still, it will require a change of generations.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:This is not

Luminon wrote:

This is not theism, it's extremism <SNIP>

 

Never fails to amaze me how coincidental islam and violence are.

 

/sarc

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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 So, Alison, can you please

 So, Alison, can you please explain to me which cultures you wish to use as yor sample for secular civilizations? Y'know, so we can actually make the comparison between behavior within those cultures vs behavior within religious cultures?

 

Also, could you explain to me why Osama Bin Laden chose to leave an extremely lucrative lifestyle and vast fortune in order to train guerrilla fighters in the desert, since terrorism is (according to your source) caused by wealth disparity?

 

EDIT: ....And why are you giving this fellow a free pass on his slander, anyway? All newspapers just publish lies? How does he know that? Where is his evidence for it? 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote: that this behavior

 

Quote:
 that this behavior comes suddenly out of nothing. This is not theism, it's extremism and it's result of systematic, long-termed injustice.

So, Luminon and Alison:

 

If I demonstrate to you that a sizeable portion of musim suicide bombers are members in relatively high standing with considerable wealth, will you admit your error? Or are we just going to do this same circle jerk over and over, so there's not much point in me doing your legwork for you (again)? 

It gets tiresome after a while.

 

And Alison, do you have any comment on the Spanish Inquisition yet? And I thought you weren't one of those people who instantly jumps-in to defend the violent extremists? Low and behold, though, here you are again, right on queue.

 

I think I'll start a counter for you.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote: If I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

If I demonstrate to you that a sizeable portion of musim suicide bombers are members in relatively high standing with considerable wealth, will you admit your error? Or are we just going to do this same circle jerk over and over, so there's not much point in me doing your legwork for you (again)? 

It gets tiresome after a while.

 

 

 

 

If I showed you a video of somebody who conducts academic research on suicide terrorism will you change your mind?

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

EDIT: ....And why are you giving this fellow a free pass on his slander, anyway? All newspapers just publish lies? How does he know that? Where is his evidence for it?

 

30-40% error isn't "nothing but lies"

 

 

He is saying that newspapers are not reliable.

 

 

 

 

So rather than address the video and his points, you just resort to ad homs and claim religious apologists.

 

Should I get start a counter for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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oh and I'm not giving Atran

oh and I'm not giving Atran a free pass, he has the data to back it up.

 

 

 


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 Scott Atran the Obvious

 

Scott Atran the Obvious Theist wrote:
...The only people to save Animists during the Rawanda genocide were muslim clerics

Well, other than General Dellaire, who saved about 32,000 Tutsis and Hutus with the ragtag remnants of his UNAMIR team who were basically down to hurling pebbled and empty flasks at the Hutu extremists.

But of course Dellaire doesn't count, because Scott Atran says so.

 

(...And apparently it's also of no relevance that the Hutu extremists were Muslims acting on ethnic and religious disparity).

 

Scott Atran the Obvious Theist, During Appeal to Authority wrote:
...Osama Bin Laden said that he would fight the USA no matter what

 

Uh huh. And why would he do that? Any guesses? According to your boy Pape, the U.S. was 'occupying' Saudi Arabia, and that's why. That argument is ridiculous. Saudi Arabia is not, and has never been, occupied by American forces. OPEC, by and large, has had the industrialized world by the balls for the past few decades.

 

I posit that it is exactly for the reasons Bin Laden claimed in his 'Resist the New Rome' tape he sent to al-jazeera; democracy and human rights are, he feels, a poison to the Islamic world and that the only antidote is a restoration of Sharia law.

 

....And Where does Atran pull that quote mine from? Why aren't we offered the full context of what Osama is saying?

 

Scott Atran the Obvious Theist wrote:
Scientists believe in magical things too! They're called memes

Obvious jab at Dr. Dawkins (what's a matter, Scott? Tad bitter that you've never earned your doctorate and gone out to make discoveries? That the intellectuals giants you stand in the shadow of don't agree with you?).

Memes are no more magical or supernatural any more than thoughts are. In a way, they do exist in space and time - as nerve impulses. A meme is simply a widely well-liked idea that people can spread easily and feel compelled to spread. There's nothing magical about it at all; Scott's just creating a red herring.

 

Scott Atran the Obvious Theist wrote:
Communism was bad

The obligatory jab at communism and attempt to attach it to whatever he is opposing. 

 

Scott Atran the Obvious Theist wrote:
*sandwiches "Darwinian" between hs previous mention of communism and and future reference to the coming end of the world*

...Well, doesn't get too much more obvious than that.

 

I thought you said you were... what did you call it? An 'evolutionary theist'? So why are you listening to someone that makes it so painfully obvious that they don't like evolutionary theory, are paranoid, and have grand visions of the apocalypse to come? I mean, if Scott thinks we're all just doomed, why does he give a fuck? Just go be a Nihilist somewhere.

 

Hint: I think it may have something to do with wanting to pimp his books and save your soul. 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote:30-40% error isn't

 

Quote:
30-40% error isn't "nothing but lies"

No, but it is a figure that he pulled right out of his ass, just like VFX's 'the chances of our moon being able to create a solar eclipse is one in a trillion!'

 

I mean, how could he possibly be able to develop an accurate figure for that in contemporary times? You'd need to do decades of research, and by the time you were done, it would mostly already be outdated.

 

EDIT: And he says in the video, "I hear nothing but nonsense," with relation to news stories. So, yeah, he did pretty much say that they never publish accurate/truthful stories. 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Atran is atheist, you

Atran is atheist, you dumbasss

 

 

Scott Atran wrote:

It's not nuts to deny God and religion, I deny religion, I deny Gods

 

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Obvious jab at Dr. Dawkins (what's a matter, Scott? Tad bitter that you've never earned your doctorate and gone out to make discoveries? That the intellectuals giants you stand in the shadow of don't agree with you?).

 

Atran has a PhD in anthropology.

 

I thought you usually just jump to wiki to get your facts

 

wiki wrote:

He is currently a research director in anthropology at the of the French Centre national de la recherche scientifique and member of the Jean Nicod Institute at the Ecole Normale Superieure

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Hint: I think it may have something to do with wanting to pimp his books and save your soul.

 

His book was the evolutionary landscape for religion, that is a natural explanation for the orgins of religion.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, why not actually address the part about suicide terror?

 

 

 


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 Quote:Atran is atheist,

 

Quote:
Atran is atheist, you dumbasss

Pfft. And I was born yesterday.

Quote:
Atran has a PhD in anthropology.

 

I thought you usually just jump to wiki to get your facts

My mistake; they didn't refer to him as Dr. Atran, so I assumed he didn't have the title.

 

The bitter jab remains obvious. 

 

Quote:
Anyway, why not actually address the part about suicide terror?

Sure. He claims that Jihadists do not recruit, for starters, which is outright incorrect (dunno if he's just lying or ignorant; if he's as worldly as is claimed, it must be the former). 

...So why would I be interested in dealing with a fruitcake liar? I mean, hey, have at it if you're into just having your own worldview reinforced to you over and over again by your pet authors, but that's not my cup of tea.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote:Sam Harris and

 

Quote:
Sam Harris and others at the conference tells us that suicide bombers do what they do in part because they are fooled by religion into seeking paradise, which includes the promise of 72 virgins. But neither I nor any intelligence officer I have personally worked with knows of a single such case (though I don't deny that their may be errant cases out there). Such speculations may reveal more the sexual fantasies of those who speculate rather than the actual motives of suicide bombers. All leaders of jihadi groups that I have interviewed tell me that if anyone ever came to them seeking martyrdom to gain virgins in paradise, then the door would be slammed in their face

 

This is written by the nutbar that Alison wants us to listen to.

 

Yeah.

lolz. 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

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Pfft. And I was born yesterday.

 

You sure as fuck act like it.

 

 Have you ever studied logic? It's what's being said, not who is saying it.

 

Quote:

Sure. He claims that Jihadists do not recruit, for starters, which is outright incorrect (dunno if he's just lying or ignorant; if he's as worldly as is claimed, it must be the former).

 

 

 

 

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php?option=com_rokzine&view=article&id=37&Itemid=54

 

 

Scott atran wrote:

 

Former CIA case officer Marc Sageman analyzed Qaeda networks through 2003 and found that about 70 percent join through friends and 20 percent through kin. In his new book Leaderless Jihad: Terror Networks in the 21st Century (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2007) S

 

 

As in most join on their own.

 

 

 


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 that's not what he said.

 That's not what he said. He implicitly said, none are recruited. That there was zero recruitment going on.

 

That's a fucking lie.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote:Have you ever

 

Quote:
Have you ever studied logic? It's what's being said, not who is saying it.

There's these things called 'credibility' and 'bias', though, and when you have little of the former and a lot of the latter, it's not terribly reasonable to assume that your arguments will be valid. 

 

We absolutely know he's a liar, so who's to say his data isn't faked? Did hetell you what methods he used to derive his '30%' figure, for example?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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nice quote mine in your new

nice quote mine in your new sig

 

oh and is this guy a theist too?

 

http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/03/e20-scott-atran-causes-of-terrorism.html

 

 

 

If you want to see his sources, a simple google search gives his articles about terrorism

 

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/satran/relevant_articles_on_terrorism

 

 

http://unjobs.org/authors/scott-atran

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Kevin R Brown wrote:There's

Kevin R Brown wrote:

There's these things called 'credibility' and 'bias', though, and when you have little of the former and a lot of the latter, it's not terribly reasonable to assume that your arguments will be valid. 

 

We absolutely know he's a liar, so who's to say his data isn't faked? Did hetell you what methods he used to derive his '30%' figure, for example?

 

I would think that being a research director in anthropology at the French Centre national de la recherche scientifique,and publishing in science journals  would lend credibility.

 

 

 


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:o

Dr Tran? What?


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:3

I'm helping.


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Obvious

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Obvious jab at Dr. Dawkins (what's a matter, Scott? Tad bitter that you've never earned your doctorate and gone out to make discoveries? That the intellectuals giants you stand in the shadow of don't agree with you?).

So, lets see you want us to believe that the arab suicide terrorist are motivated by their religion, and not by political and territorial reason, contrary to the finding of every extensive study on the subject, not just Atran who works for the state department for Christ sake, studying this shit, but also the British MI5, the Chicago Institute of Suicide Terrorism, based on what evidence on what comprehensive study? I see, because of the intuition of Dawkins, your messiah right? Get a clue.

It's kind of comical to watch atheist who promote science, and scientific analysisreject it when it comes to their own masterbutory delusions. 

 

 

 

 


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 Quote:but also the British

 

Quote:
but also the British MI5, the Chicago Institute of Suicide Terrorism, based on what evidence on what comprehensive study? I see, because of the intuition of Dawkins, your messiah right? Get a clue.

Uh. Well, it wouldn't be honest for me to say, "I have a close relationship with intelligence analysts," but I do know and have what I call a casual relationship with a Russian analyst and a former Israeli analyst, and I regularly talk on Skype with a guy who works with a defense contractor for the U.S.

Guess what? None of them agree with Pineapple, and while I don't know what they personally think about Pape or Atron (it's just my view that they're hacks), clealry they don't agree with their positions either. So, do you trust some guy who wrote a book and stood in at a few meetings, or do you trust the guys who've actually been there, done it, bought the t-shirt and hit up the titty bar?

Dr. Dawkins also knows his shit. And Alison knows that, too, if she's read his book. Atron probably doesn't (if he did, he wouldn't make the absolute claims he does). But, no, Dawkins isn't my go-to guy. My go-to guys are too busy getting shit done to write books, go on lecture tours and become celebrity figures (no offense inteded towards Dr. Dawkins; I realize that he's getting shit done in his own way by becoming a public face).

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Quote: nice quote mine in

 

Quote:
 nice quote mine in your new sig

Hey, I just figure one dishonest asshole deserves another.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Uh.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Uh. Well, it wouldn't be honest for me to say, "I have a close relationship with intelligence analysts," but I do know and have what I call a casual relationship with a Russian analyst and a former Israeli analyst, and I regularly talk on Skype with a guy who works with a defense contractor for the U.S.

Guess what? None of them agree with Pineapple, and while I don't know what they personally think about Pape or Atron (it's just my view that they're hacks), clealry they don't agree with their positions either. So, do you trust some guy who wrote a book and stood in at a few meetings, or do you trust the guys who've actually been there, done it, bought the t-shirt and hit up the titty bar?

Dr. Dawkins also knows his shit. And Alison knows that, too, if she's read his book. Atron probably doesn't (if he did, he wouldn't make the absolute claims he does). But, no, Dawkins isn't my go-to guy. My go-to guys are too busy getting shit done to write books, go on lecture tours and become celebrity figures (no offense inteded towards Dr. Dawkins; I realize that he's getting shit done in his own way by becoming a public face).

 


 

Atran has worked with intelligent agents, interviews jihad leaders etc....

 

I have read God delusion, and don't see how that is relevant.

 

How do I even know you "have a casual relationship" with these people, let alone whether they actually are intelligent agents, where as Sageman [quoted in the paper I linked to] is a former intelligent anaylist

 

 

So yeah, both Atran and Sageman have "been there done that"

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Quote:I have read God

Quote:
I have read God delusion, and don't see how that is relevant.

I actually meant 'Selfish Gene', and it's not partcularly relevant to the topic, no. I just brought it up as an example that Dr. Dawkins does indeed know what he's talking about and so isn't some Messianic figure (you didn't say that, I know. Other dude said that). 

Quote:
How do I even know you "have a casual relationship" with these people, let alone whether they actually are intelligent agents, where as Sageman [quoted in the paper I linked to] is a former intelligent anaylist

Like I give two fucks whether you believe I talk to who I talk to. I'm just letting you (well, technically, letting the other dude) know why I'm being so flippantly dismissive and derisive towards this topic.

Trying argue with me at this point about the motives of the former Mujahideen jihadists is like trying to argue with you that evolution is a fantasy. You're not an expert, but you're sure enough of the experts you know that it's not worth your while to do much more than make fun of the other person (it's not like you could ever convince them anyway, so why bother trying).

 

Maybe the one fellow will iPhone his way over here and you can hear what he has to say (I think it's about three words).

No promises. 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Uh.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Uh. Well, it wouldn't be honest for me to say, "I have a close relationship with intelligence analysts," but I do know and have what I call a casual relationship with a Russian analyst and a former Israeli analyst, and I regularly talk on Skype with a guy who works with a defense contractor for the U.S.

Haha, you sound like that fundie Iraqi dude, George Sada, who goes around churches claiming Saddam had WMD, and he knows this because his Iraqi Air Force buddies told him so. Bull shit, stop making shit up dude.

Quote:
Guess what? None of them agree with Pineapple, and while I don't know what they personally think about Pape or Atron (it's just my view that they're hacks), clearly they don't agree with their positions either.

Yea, they sure sound like hacks, I'm guessing the British MI5 are hacks too? 

Quote:
So, do you trust some guy who wrote a book and stood in at a few meetings, or do you trust the guys who've actually been there, done it, bought the t-shirt and hit up the titty bar?

See, unlike the dweeby white dudes that plague this forum, I know how it is to be a part of a deeply committed community, of friends who are a part of the everyday struggle, if someone were to come and harm someone whose a part of it, we'd all be more than capable of seeking a very violent retribution. Push the right buttons, and all of us would be capable of some really heinous shit. 

If I were to have my friends, or a family member die at the hands of a percieved oppressor, I'd blow shit up too. The difference between me and you, and your flunky buddies you proclaim as experts, is that I understand human nature, particularly when it relates quite well to my own. The actual studies, and the research done has all borne out my assumptions. 

You on one hand, are plagued by stupidity and delusion, and don't have a fucking clue. 

If you think you understand the mind of terrorist better, and what role religion has in motivating them, I want to hear your care. I want to hear how the fuck "religion" motivates terrorist? Is it the 72 virgins?

Quote:
Dr. Dawkins also knows his shit. And Alison knows that, too, if she's read his book.

Dawkins doesn't know shit, and I've read his books, listen to his lectures, and read his interviews and articles. He's views on terrorism, are based solely on his dimwitted intuition. And they are idiotic as his claim that theist are more dreadful of death than atheist, because some nurse he knows told him so. Atran made Harris look like a fucking idiot, who had to confess that he couldn't argue with him, but he'd scour the world seeking to find him a knowledgeable opponent, that never showed up. 

And if you think Dawkins knows shit, that I don't know what to say about your "supposed" sources.

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My go-to guys are too busy getting shit done to write books

Dude your go-to guys, are some fat hairy teenagers playing SOCOM who found a gullible sap to fuck with. Face it, you live in some delusion world, with people you've made up. 

 

 

 

 

 


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Right, well this was

Right, well this was interesting, but now it's just a dick-measuring contest about who has badder friends, etc.

I always read these threads about the political motivations of suicide terrorism with great interest and the same thing always fucking happens. STAY FOCUSED.

K- Skype as a source? Really dude? Come on. 

12- Don't just make blanket statements like "Dawkins doesn't know shit and I've read his books, etc." because you know it's not true. Even if he doesn't agree with you on terrorist motivations or who dreads death more, the man was voted Britain's #1 intellectual. He's incredibly intelligent, and just by saying that does not mean someone has a masturbatory obsession over him, it's fact. 

 

Now, back to the topic at hand. 

Captain says that suicide terrorism is born of politics and not the myth of 72 virgins in paradise etc, and also the product of abject poverty I think...(correct me if I'm wrong). She's given several sources. [Do you have any more?]

Kevin, on the other hand, thinks that just the opposite can be found (i.e.: it is strictly religiously motivated and consists at least in part of wealthy middle-eastern men) again, correct me if I'm wrong. So far, no sources, just hearsay. I'd love to see a source, very interesting argument,

TheTwelve made a couple of fleeting references to the British M15 that I would love to see him follow up on with some links. If he's just interested in continuing his pissing-contest with Kevin, however, he should probably just find a new thread. (No offense).

 

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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cervello_marcio wrote:12-

cervello_marcio wrote:

12- Don't just make blanket statements like "Dawkins doesn't know shit and I've read his books, etc." because you know it's not true. Even if he doesn't agree with you on terrorist motivations or who dreads death more, the man was voted Britain's #1 intellectual. He's incredibly intelligent, and just by saying that does not mean someone has a masturbatory obsession over him, it's fact.  

 

Dawkins is quite intelligent when it comes to his field of study, there's very few people who could speak so precisely and articulately about evolution, but he's rather dimwitted when he express his views on everything else. Kev at least claims to base his views on something other than his intuition, the opinions of his supposed "expert" friends, Dawkins bases his views on nothing more than his intuition. 

And Dawkins status as one of Britain's top intellectuals, is based on his influence, and popularity. His book got a lot of publicity. But if you think you could cite him as a source for an essay on suicide terrorism, you should know that you might as well cite your mom. If you want to point to where one time Dawkins, or the rest of the four horsemen, reference a study, speaks of actual cases, or the actual evidence that supports their views on suicide terrorism, outside of their own naive intuition you let me know.

But as of now, the atheist ranting about how Islam is the reason the towers fell, is in the same league as those theist who rant that it was the teaching of evolution that led to Columbine. Dawkins, Harris and company are a part of this league as well.

As for the foul mouther response to Kev, well I perhaps won't do it again, but I take great offense to individuals who attempt to spread bunk when it comes to 9/11, and what's happening in the world right now, for very personal reasons. 

 


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theTwelve wrote:Dawkins is

theTwelve wrote:

Dawkins is quite intelligent when it comes to his field of study, there's very few people who could speak so precisely and articulately about evolution, but he's rather dimwitted when he express his views on everything else. Kev at least claims to base his views on something other than his intuition, the opinions of his supposed "expert" friends, Dawkins bases his views on nothing more than his intuition. 

And Dawkins status as one of Britain's top intellectuals, is based on his influence, and popularity. His book got a lot of publicity. But if you think you could cite him as a source for an essay on suicide terrorism, you should know that you might as well cite your mom. If you want to point to where one time Dawkins, or the rest of the four horsemen, reference a study, speaks of actual cases, or the actual evidence that supports their views on suicide terrorism, outside of their own naive intuition you let me know.

But as of now, the atheist ranting about how Islam is the reason the towers fell, is in the same league as those theist who rant that it was the teaching of evolution that led to Columbine. Dawkins, Harris and company are a part of this league as well.

As for the foul mouther response to Kev, well I perhaps won't do it again, but I take great offense to individuals who attempt to spread bunk when it comes to 9/11, and what's happening in the world right now, for very personal reasons. 

I actually agree with yo re: the underlined portion to a degree. What you had said though was that after you'd become familiar with his work and lectures, you found him to be stupid. I just wanted you to specify a little more.

I'd disagree with you on his status as an intellectual but that's an empty battle. Regardless, I didn't mean to insinuate that he was a proper authority for this particular debate. My apologies if that's what you inferred.

I personally don't think you can simply discount the influence of Islam on the attacks altogether, but I'm willing to be persuaded.

At any rate, you can be as foul mouthed as you want, just stay on topic. This isn't Kill Em With Kindness so if you want to say "Kevin, I think your ideas are fucking retarded and you should shut your mouth because all it's good for is sucking dick anyway" it's your prerogative to do so...so long as afterwards you explain why.

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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cervello_marcio wrote:I

cervello_marcio wrote:

I personally don't think you can simply discount the influence of Islam on the attacks altogether, but I'm willing to be persuaded.

Well, I tend to discount religious motivation in both good and bad things, and the reason for this, is that before religion was man. Religion serves as a framework for  a person's emotions, but not its source. It would be fairly impossible task to convince those wealthy megachurch Christians to take on a life of poverty, and give all their money for the betterment of the poor, even though Jesus himself said this, in fact he even offered greater rewards in heaven for this. 

Neither could some imam go over to a young fellow and claim that he'd get fucked well for the rest of eternity, if he'd blow himself up and take a number of innocent lives with them, and win himself some horny terrorist converts. Emotions arise out of facts on the ground, and sometimes attach themselves onto a religious framework. Bin Laden's letters are filled with his anger towards western intervention in the middle east, the oppression and untold death those white devils have brought to "his" people, the motivation is like black riots that arise in the aftermath of a police shooting. 

Here's an account of a sixteen year old boy, Nabeel who exploded himself in the Israeli port of Ashdod.  "Nabeel had received word that he had received a scholarship to study in England, but the two cousins he most loved were then killed in an Israeli raid, so he went to the Mosque and prepared himself to die." “Why are we sitting around in America, doing nothing for our people?”  is the question, Hassan, a soon to be Somali suicide terrorist, living in America, pressed his friends.  "In November, Mr. Hassan and two other students dropped out of college and left for Somalia, the homeland they barely knew. Word soon spread that they had joined the Shabaab, a militant Islamist group aligned with Al Qaeda that is fighting to overthrow the fragile Somali government." Those naive assumptions about the motivation of terrorist, are the claims of individuals who don't understand the breathe of human nature and its emotions, particularly when they themselves live so disconnected to contemplate. I can understand them, because I know if i were witness to the suffering and oppression of my own people, I'd be just be a hair trigger away from being not much different than them, just out of the sheer joy of revenge. 

 


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The few Muslims I have known

The few Muslims I have known well enough to discuss religion curiously expressed the same thing: Jews are evil and need to die. These are Muslims who have spent their whole lives in the US, are affluent and even have Jewish friends. The first time I heard this, it was from a 14 year old boy who had excelled in school so much that he was in his freshman year of college at that age. Very intelligent, very personable, and quite sure that one day the Jewish people needed to be exterminated. His own justifications for this were entirely religious.

And, I am a recovering Christian. I know the strength of indoctrination firsthand. I can say with absolute certainty that there was a time I could have been manipulated into destructive acts for religious goals. And I am not alone. I remember one Catholic friend who stated that should the pope declare it moral to kill abortion doctor's, he would gladly start doing just that.

So, while I certainly think that poverty, war and politics play a role, to dismiss the ability of religion(any religion) to bring someone to such horrible actions is simply blind.

 

All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.


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Quote:I remember one

Quote:
I remember one Catholic friend who stated that should the pope declare it moral to kill abortion doctor's, he would gladly start doing just that.

Yes, just as their are peta activist who support killing doctors who conduct test on animals. It's not fucking hard to understand why people feel emotionally connected to fetuses, if you ever seen an expecting mother faun over her sonograms you'd get it. Many atheist here support the end of religion, and some in history have supported the end of religion by the murdering of priests, and nuns, the French Revolution is such an example, and one that raised the notion of reason to be something ultimate. Some theist oppose abortion, some atheist oppose religion, and within those ranks some support violent means of doing so. The nazi's subricribed to a "scientific worldview", and commited their attrocities claiming them to be scientific. A worldview is not a motivator, but a mean to map your motivations. That's a crucial distinction. People have done horrendous things in the name of reason, science, democacy, secularilism, freedom, and religion, but it'd be a naive understanding of human nature to claim that reason, science, secularlism were motivators. 

thatonedude wrote:

The few Muslims I have known well enough to discuss religion curiously expressed the same thing: Jews are evil and need to die.  

So let's see, you heard them express jews are evil and need to die, and from this you claim bingo religion as a motivator. Now, did you probe them and ask them why they felt jews were evil, and why have they singled out jews, and not every other non-muslim? Can you explain this to me.

I don't think you understand how to contemplate the question, and that is why you assume as you do. 

Quote:
So, while I certainly think that poverty, war and politics play a role, to dismiss the ability of religion(any religion) to bring someone to such horrible actions is simply blind.

I hear this reverse of this argument all the time, it's no different in nature. Teaching individuals evolution leads them to believe in a surivival of the fittest mentality, seeking to kill off weaker individuals, such as what was done in eugenics. The exec at Enron claimed "natural selection", so the dimwitted theist than claims this as evidence that the teaching of evolution leads to men like the Enron folks. 

People can dress up what they do, with whatever language they so choose, the language of reason, science, religion, liberalism, or whatever else, but actual motivations are much deeper than that. 

 

 

 


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theists

theist, terrorist ding dongs may have good reasons to be disgruntled. theism is what makes it ok for them to funnel their unhappiness with their life into surprise killing people that have little to nothing to do with their issues.  72 virgins may have little to nothing to do with their lack of value for life but theism is what makes it ok to kill. tHEISM IS FUCKING EVIL!!!

The boys at Enron were greedy fucks that understood how to make money but were fairly clueless on survival of the fittest or the difference between wrong and right...

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush


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theTwelve wrote:The nazi's

theTwelve wrote:

The nazi's subricribed to a "scientific worldview", and commited their attrocities claiming them to be scientific. A worldview is not a motivator, but a mean to map your motivations. That's a crucial distinction. People have done horrendous things in the name of reason, science, democacy, secularilism, freedom, and religion, but it'd be a naive understanding of human nature to claim that reason, science, secularlism were motivators. 

Then why make the reference to the Nazi's? Particularly when it's common knowledge that they were a Christian organization even on the most superficial levels.

TheTwelve wrote:

So let's see, you heard them express jews are evil and need to die, and from this you claim bingo religion as a motivator. Now, did you probe them and ask them why they felt jews were evil, and why have they singled out jews, and not every other non-muslim? Can you explain this to me.

I don't think you understand how to contemplate the question, and that is why you assume as you do. 

The Jews and Muslims have a historically conflictive relationship that easily predates modern political motivators and is definitely tied to religion. 

TheTwelve wrote:

Teaching individuals evolution leads them to believe in a surivival of the fittest mentality, seeking to kill off weaker individuals, such as what was done in eugenics. The exec at Enron claimed "natural selection", so the dimwitted theist than claims this as evidence that the teaching of evolution leads to men like the Enron folks. 

People can dress up what they do, with whatever language they so choose, the language of reason, science, religion, liberalism, or whatever else, but actual motivations are much deeper than that. 

Except that's completely different. Evolution =/= social darwinism. If people paid attention, they would have heard about "natural" selection, "random" mutations, not injecting your own fucked up idea of who should survive and who shouldn't. Religion on the other hand was the motivating factor in something like the crusades. We can say this with confidence because even the political or imperialistic motivators were founded upon Christian claims to that land.

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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theTwelve.... Nazi's were

theTwelve.... Nazi's were scientific.... that's why they completely ignored what science had to say about the slaughter, and why they were obsessed with the occult. Right....

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cervello_marcio wrote:Then

cervello_marcio wrote:

Then why make the reference to the Nazi's? Particularly when it's common knowledge that they were a Christian organization even on the most superficial levels.

Yes, the dude that considered Christianity as a "symptom of decay", who praised  Julian's anti-christian tract as giving a clear portrait of Christians and Christianity, and claimed that the new and old testament, as well as the sayings of Jesus were "a swindle, that won't make us a free", and that making an Aryan out of Jesus, is nonsense, was surely a Christian. 

And vocal atheist high ranking members of the Nazi party such as Martin Bormann, Baldur von Schirach, Artur Axmann, Adolf Wagner, Albert Speer were all christians right?

But this is besides the point, the point was that the Nazi committed their atrocities under the name on science. The large body of German scientist supported Hitler. The tools used were the epitome of scientific advancement, and lets not fail to mention that eugenics was a popular and government sanctioned practice in much of the western worlds, supported by a large body of scientist. 

You can consider it bunk science now, as we understand the rest of the picture, but given what they knew then, it wasn't such an unreasonable position to assume. 

But lets look at it this way, we understand that certain illness, such as mental illness are often hereditary, if we could pin point with individuals carried these genes, would this mean that it was okay to sterilize such individuals? If it was deemed as "OK" by some, would we say that science was the motivator? Or is the "OK" determined by other motivators and perspectives?

Again science is not a motivator, neither is religion, because prior to science and religion was man, and human nature, which motivates all on its own. If a theist decides to take on slaves, or free them, fight a war, or be a pacifist, to slay ones enemies, or to love them, it's not the result of his religion, but rather his very nature. He may dress up his position in religious language as have many individuals dressed up their position in scientific terms, but these are not the motivators. 

TheTwelve wrote:

The Jews and Muslims have a historically conflictive relationship that easily predates modern political motivators and is definitely tied to religion.

Then you don't know much about history or religion. At the conception of Islam, Jews and Muslims lived fairly harmoniously, Jews like Christians were considered "people of the book" by Muhammad, and their religious practices and synagogues were protected as the Islamic State expanded out of the Arabian Peninsula and large numbers of Jews came under Muslim rule. The Islamic law commanded that Jews be judged by their own set of laws, and not the Muslim one. Islamic and Jewish thinking during this period continually influenced each other, as evidences even in the writing of Maimonides. Maimonides claims that the Muslims were rightly directed in their notion of unity of God, and said  "The hearts of those who bow down toward it (Kabbah) today are [directed] only toward Heaven. Even today, over 30,000 Jews live in Iran, and live rather civilly with their Muslim majority, with dozens of Synagogues in Tehran alone. 

Well, I doubt you know many Muslims, but if you find some who are hostile towards Jews, ask them the reason for that hostility, I'd wager next to none of them, would tell you it's not over political reasons, particularly dealing with Palestine. You're views are hardly informed by any scientific analysis, nor any profound contemplation on the question, or even conversations with muslims, but more likely taken from the mouth of the ignorant like Harris and company. I would like to see you defend otherwise.

Quote:
Religion on the other hand was the motivating factor in something like the crusades. We can say this with confidence because even the political or imperialistic motivators were founded upon Christian claims to that land. 

Really, it was religion that motivated the crusades? Not greed and power? When Bush went hard on for this oil war, he dressed it in the langauge of freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people, nearly all economic, and power grab wars, are dressed up in the ideals most valued by the populace, there's been a lot of nasty shit done in the name of democracy, secularalization, and freedom. But it takes something more than a naive contemplation to understand the underlying motives for an act, and the words, and ideology claimed as it's justification.

 

 


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Vastet wrote:. that's why

Vastet wrote:
. that's why they completely ignored what science had to say about the slaughter.

I didn't know science talked, but it has something to say about slaughter? What's that? Would science have the said that the genocide of the indians that gave us this wonderful country, was evil, wrong, or any of that shit?

If I wanted to beat the shit of you for the sheer joy of doing it, the only thing that scientific contemplation would do is, is help me decide between a gun or a knife. 

Science is only a tool, that has no concern for whatever sort of atrocities you desire to do with it, just like rocks don't give a shit if you make spears out of em. 


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Subdi Visions wrote:theism

Subdi Visions wrote:

theism is what makes it ok for them to funnel their unhappiness with their life into surprise killing people that have little to nothing to do with their issues.  72 virgins may have little to nothing to do with their lack of value for life but theism is what makes it ok to kill.

This is magic talk dude, can you tell me what magic power makes it not ok? Is it the magic power of the conscience? The magicaliness of human nature? Is there some sort of fairy that makes the act not ok, which the terrorist have to override with religion in order to commit their acts? 

Quote:
or the difference between wrong and right...

Right and Wrong are like the Polynessian taboos, for which Kamenhametha II was capable of ridding with ease, they may of held relevance long ago, but now has been lost. Right and wrong may have meant something in Heroic societies, in the premodern world of telos, an enchanted world, but in our modern world have lost all sense of meaning and relevance, like taboos. 

China, who asks if human rights are a western intervention, got the memo, apparently you didn't.  

 


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   Science can be

   Science can be corrupted by dogma, be it religious, scientific or political in nature.

 

   A 21'st century example of science being corrupted by ( religious ) dogma would be fundamemtalist Christianity and its devotion to Creation Science / Intelligent Design.

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I don't think that poverty

I don't think that poverty is really a deciding factor, few suicide bombers are un-educated and live in poverty.

 

So ignore Kevin's strawman that suicide bombers are relativly well off to disprove my point, he seems to do that a lot.

 

 

Ironically, if I asked him to source it, he probably would have cited an article by Atran.

 

 


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theTwelve wrote:Yes, the

theTwelve wrote:

Yes, the dude that considered Christianity as a "symptom of decay", who praised  Julian's anti-christian tract as giving a clear portrait of Christians and Christianity, and claimed that the new and old testament, as well as the sayings of Jesus were "a swindle, that won't make us a free", and that making an Aryan out of Jesus, is nonsense, was surely a Christian. 

Yeah that would be the same guy that filled his speeches with religious rhetoric and was a practicing Catholic to his death (and is quoted as describing himself as such). But I didn't say Adolf Hitler, I said the Nazi party. Which was comprised of a strong majority of practicing Christians who seemed to have no problem with belt buckles that read "Gott mit Uns" (an old argument but a good one). That Nazi party.

TheTwelve wrote:

But this is besides the point, the point was that the Nazi committed their atrocities under the name on science. The large body of German scientist supported Hitler. The tools used were the epitome of scientific advancement, and lets not fail to mention that eugenics was a popular and government sanctioned practice in much of the western worlds, supported by a large body of scientist. 

You can consider it bunk science now, as we understand the rest of the picture, but given what they knew then, it wasn't such an unreasonable position to assume. 

Science was used to justify the actions, which were mainly socio-political. It was not the cause. Although I should point out that I'm a little disappointed that this has turned into a Holocaust debate.

TheTwelve wrote:

But lets look at it this way, we understand that certain illness, such as mental illness are often hereditary, if we could pin point with individuals carried these genes, would this mean that it was okay to sterilize such individuals? If it was deemed as "OK" by some, would we say that science was the motivator? Or is the "OK" determined by other motivators and perspectives?

Again science is not a motivator, neither is religion, because prior to science and religion was man, and human nature, which motivates all on its own. If a theist decides to take on slaves, or free them, fight a war, or be a pacifist, to slay ones enemies, or to love them, it's not the result of his religion, but rather his very nature. He may dress up his position in religious language as have many individuals dressed up their position in scientific terms, but these are not the motivators. 

Why are you presenting strawmen if you're going to refute them yourself? That's how this whole debate got started. 

TheTwelve wrote:

Then you don't know much about history or religion. At the conception of Islam, Jews and Muslims lived fairly harmoniously, Jews like Christians were considered "people of the book" by Muhammad, and their religious practices and synagogues were protected as the Islamic State expanded out of the Arabian Peninsula and large numbers of Jews came under Muslim rule. The Islamic law commanded that Jews be judged by their own set of laws, and not the Muslim one. Islamic and Jewish thinking during this period continually influenced each other, as evidences even in the writing of Maimonides. Maimonides claims that the Muslims were rightly directed in their notion of unity of God, and said  "The hearts of those who bow down toward it (Kabbah) today are [directed] only toward Heaven. Even today, over 30,000 Jews live in Iran, and live rather civilly with their Muslim majority, with dozens of Synagogues in Tehran alone. 

Well, I doubt you know many Muslims, but if you find some who are hostile towards Jews, ask them the reason for that hostility, I'd wager next to none of them, would tell you it's not over political reasons, particularly dealing with Palestine. You're views are hardly informed by any scientific analysis, nor any profound contemplation on the question, or even conversations with muslims, but more likely taken from the mouth of the ignorant like Harris and company. I would like to see you defend otherwise.

Not a big Harris fan myself. And yeah, you're absolutely right. There was zero conflict between those two peoples before the Zionist movement. How silly of m--OH WAIT

Wikipedia wrote:

The period of the Ottoman Empire rule in Palestine in which the Palestinians saw themselves as part of the overall Arab territories which were under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. During that period, the disputes were on the basis of religious background and not on national background.

Well that was certainly difficult. And that's a fairly recent example. That's to say nothing of "The notable examples of massacre of Jews include the killing or forcibly converting of them by the rulers of the Almohad dynasty in Al-Andalus in the 12th century. [27]"  

For example.

TheTwelve wrote:

Really, it was religion that motivated the crusades? Not greed and power?

That's what I said. Reread my sentence please. And religion goes hand in hand with greed and power, something like Lord Acton said...

TheTwelve wrote:

When Bush went hard on for this oil war,

Interesting that you conflated Bush with the crusades and not me, especially when you're arguing that our conflict in the middle east is purely political. But I digress...

theTwelve wrote:

he dressed it in the langauge of freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people, nearly all economic, and power grab wars, are dressed up in the ideals most valued by the populace, there's been a lot of nasty shit done in the name of democracy, secularalization, and freedom. But it takes something more than a naive contemplation to understand the underlying motives for an act, and the words, and ideology claimed as it's justification.

I agree. You ought to read the Wolfowitz Doctrine.

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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cervello_marcio wrote:Yeah

cervello_marcio wrote:

Yeah that would be the same guy that filled his speeches with religious rhetoric and was a practicing Catholic to his death (and is quoted as describing himself as such). But I didn't say Adolf Hitler, I said the Nazi party. Which was comprised of a strong majority of practicing Christians who seemed to have no problem with belt buckles that read "Gott mit Uns" (an old argument but a good one). That Nazi party.

I suggest you learn more about history. Nazi party leaders believed that national socialism and christianity were incompatable Hitler believed that christianity would die by itself as science advanced. The party suppressed religious teachings, ended religious youth movements, and forbid religious teaching of Hitler Youth. 

The Nazi party formulated a 30 point program for the "National Reich church", that including the ridding and forbidding the publications of the bible, getting rid of crucifixes, and pictures of saints, and would allow only the Mein Kampf and a sword to be placed on the altar. Hitler planned on getting rid of Christian churches, after having control of the European Empire. 

Reading Martin Bormann: 

"When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest."

Nazism wasn't a christian movement, it's just whored christianity to rile up popular support, and planned to be rid of it, once it acheived it's end. They believed just like atheist here do, in the awesome power of science, not the christian faith which the leaders of the party deplored, and sought to eventually get rid of. 

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Science was used to justify the actions, which were mainly socio-political. It was not the cause. Although I should point out that I'm a little disappointed that this has turned into a Holocaust debate.

I never said that science was the cause, nor was religion, and if you didn't suffer from confirmation bias, you would have already understood this. To play with your own words : "Religion was used to justify the actions, which were mainly socio-political. It was not the cause." If you can use thay brain of yours to comprehend why science wasn't the cause, you'd begin to understand why religion wasn't the cause here either. Remember this tid bit of wisdom: "what's claimed as justification, is not always the actual motivation of an action. "

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Why are you presenting strawmen if you're going to refute them yourself? That's how this whole debate got started.

Let's see if you brain can wrap around this. Hitler used religion, and science as justification for his actions, Arab terrorist used religion as a justification, but neither religion, or science were motivators. 

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 There was zero conflict between those two peoples before the Zionist movement. How silly of m--OH WAIT

Yep, that's exactly what I said zero-conflict. What a idiot. The fucking point dude, is you haven't gotten it yet, is religion, is not a motivator, human nature compels on its own. The idiot atheist believes in some sort of pure human nature, removed of man's desire for greed and power, that becomes corrupted by supposedly outside sources like religion. It's the idiot atheist who doesn't understand that before religion was man, and that religion and it's use will always be an expression of human nature. It's not an external source of motivation, but rather used an expression of internal sources, like our use of language. But perhaps you're a little to slow to understand this? 

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And religion goes hand in hand with greed and power, something like Lord Acton said...

Yep, the amish are motivated by greed and power. Martin Luther King, and the Southern Christian Leadership Confrence were motivated by greed and power, Desmund Tutu, Oscar Romero were motivated by greed and power, Deitrich Bonhoeffer was motivated by greed and power. The pastor of my mothers fundie church, who gave up a lucrative career for a miniscule salary of a pastor, who refused to sue the public school in which his son died because of neglect, was motivated by greed and power 

You're a fucking joke, who doesn't know shit about greed and power. 

 

 


Di66en6ion
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 I think anyone who thinks

 I think anyone who thinks dogmas/worldviews/religions don't at least act as a catalyst for actions is fooling themselves. You can say holy land-grabs are motivated by greed and power but the land would have been different if the holy land were in a different area, there is no one without the other. There is a reason well beyond social/economic disparity for Islam to be associated with terrorism that lies in some of the skewed religious teachings. 

 


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:3

theTwelve wrote:
...

 

 

How cute. You still think you are people.

 

 

Oh, and the Nazi regime was founded and supported through religion. They all wore belt buckles that said "God With Us", and the abandonment and decision that ORGANIZED religion was bad did not begin until /late/ in their rule, and only after they were having conflicts with the church for some of their actions. Then it became a hindrance, and they determined they needed to get rid of it.

 

 

Hitler believed he was doing the "Lord's Work". Read his book. He was angry because organized religion began acting against him. Not against religion entirely.

 

 

 

 

I suggest you learn more about history.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:Hitler

ClockCat wrote:

Hitler believed he was doing the "Lord's Work". Read his book. He was angry because organized religion began acting against him. Not against religion entirely.

Hitler believed in his own hybrid God, sort of Einstein in nature, not the the Christian one. He claimed belief in the Christian God, only to win support of that masses, and any sort of objective evaluation would have revealed this. It's why he wanted to be rid of churches, crucifixes, and bibles, when the European empire was under his control. It's why the Nazi did prohibited religion from being taught to the Hitler youth, its why he called the saying of Jesus a Jewish swindle, and that making Jesus into an Aryan, is nonsense. 

it doesn't take much of brain to understand that by engaging his private statement, that Hitler was no fan of Christianity, nor a believer in it. This is fact, and fairly deluded to deny.

What he did in fact believe in, held faith in, is the master narrative of the enlightenment, it's fawning over science and reason, he had more in common with the enlightenment values of Jacobins, and the leaders of the French Revolution, than he did with Christianity. You might call this fawning religious in nature, but it's difficult to find atheist even today who don't share Hitler masturbatory relationship to science and the enlightenment. 

 

 


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theTwelve wrote: You might

theTwelve wrote:

 You might call this fawning religious in nature, but it's difficult to find atheist even today who don't share Hitler masturbatory relationship to science and the enlightenment. 

 

So you're trying to relate a masturbatory relationship to science with social darwinism?  

 

He used religious propaganda to raise support; whether he believed in some religion's god or not has absolutely no bearing on anyone else who does or doesn't. 


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Di66en6ion wrote:So you're

Di66en6ion wrote:
So you're trying to relate a masturbatory relationship to science with social Darwinism?

When I say a masturbatory relationship to science, i mean an elevation of science to more than what it is, to a worldview, rather than a notion that informs a worldview, it's the elevation of science to high art, to sort of divinity, it's the enlightenment endeavor of the French revolution that attempted to create a church of science, and a Goddess of Reason, Hitlers and the Nazi leadership sense of religiosity was far more akin to that, than Christianity. Dawkins, and company also share a similar lineage of thinking, pamphlets of "imagine no religion", the evangelizing of religion is the cause of all evil, the raising of science as a grand art, as a replacement for divinity, Dawkins himself claims the awe of god should be transferred to an awe of science, this brand of atheism has far more in common with Robespierre than the average Denmark atheist. 

Such elevations manifested in movements have always been violent, and heinous. 

Now, is science the motivator here? The answer is no. 

Human nature has a propensity to divinize all on it's own, when individuals are immensely moved by certain things, whether violently or compassionately, they express these notions as larger than life. If the 9/11 terrorist weren't Muslims, they would have invented a religion on their own, Hitler did, so did the Jacobin's. If Islam is the religion most readily accessible, than that becomes the language that embodies their expression, of something internally felt. If it's a religion of "science and reason" the Dawkins like faith, that it would have been in the language that their acts were expressed.