What would it take?

chuckg6261982
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What would it take?

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?


 


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Wouldn't an omniscient being

Wouldn't an omniscient being already know this?

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pauljohntheskeptic
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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

Simultaneously appearing to all 6 billion plus humans and discussing details with each one of us that only we would know. In order to eliminate the possibility of him being an alien with telepathic mind reading he would also have to resurrect from the dead persons chosen by each of the 6 billion. This may mean multiple resurrected copies. These resurrected persons would be the age chosen by the requester. He then would have to create on the spot whatever the 6 billion persons demanded. That would be a good start.

Alternative - 3 days after I have died resurrect me after all my blood has been drained from my body and refilled with embalming fluid. Restoring all the body organs I donated at my death as well. That might do it.

 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I might be able to believe

I might be able to believe there was something to this God character if there were a consistent and coherent universal understanding of the nature of "God." As it is, even nominally-related theologies (Christians and Muslims, for instance) are at complete loggerheads. And then there's this whole Catholic/Protestant schism, and even splits within Protestant doctrine.

It seems that if there were an all-powerful being that wished us to have comphrension of him, that he would try to keep his message simple and consistent.

After that, it might take a few true miracles. Not this "83 people survived a jet crash" miracle you hear about on the news every once in a while, but the big stuff, like the Old School God used to do. You know, parting the Red Sea, that sort of thing.

However, it'd take either exceptional documentation of one miracle, or fair documentation of multiple, unrelated miracles.

At that point, I might be able to take God a little more seriously.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


pauljohntheskeptic
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nigelTheBold wrote:After

nigelTheBold wrote:

After that, it might take a few true miracles. Not this "83 people survived a jet crash" miracle you hear about on the news every once in a while, but the big stuff, like the Old School God used to do. You know, parting the Red Sea, that sort of thing.

How about parting the Pacific Ocean. 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Quote:What would it take to

Quote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

 

Appearing before an extemely large audience, with cameras rolling from multiple angles, doing things that clearly 'break' physics. Making hand gestures and having the entire sky change colors at a whim, causing clouds to weave themselves into high-definition images/words/numbers, causing mountains to raise/lower, plainly citing what is going to happen at various intervals in the future wih virtually no error on his part and demonstrating the ability to ressurrect the dead.

 

It would take significantly less evidence to demonstrate special Creationism to me. Consistent measurements showing that the Earth is just a few thousand years old, consistent findings of modern land animals in geological strata they don't belong in (the Cambrian period, for example) and consistent genetic evidence that falsifies common ancestry.

Of course, it's pretty clear by now that none of the above will ever come to fruition, isn't it?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Sigh, he's been here more

Sigh, he's been here more than a week and is especially a dillhole so:

 


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:
What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for? 

Any omnipotent or "functionally omnipotent" being who was really interested in my believing in it could shove my will aside and just make me believe.

As far as convincing me goes: There would have to be a great deal of evidence within the universe that could in no way be interpreted so that a god hypotheses could be discarded and maintain a workable explanation and there would have to be some direct evidence of that god. Of course, at that point it wouldn't be belief, it would be knowledge.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:How

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

How about parting the Pacific Ocean. 

Awesome concept pjts. that's what I call thinking BIG !        

( Maybe, while God's parting the Pacific, he could make the Earth rotate in the opposite direction while simutaneously juggling two black holes     ........and then resurrecting John Lennon from the dead so that He and Lennon could sing a duet of "Imagine"  Sweet !)

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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You haven't been reading

You haven't been reading your Bible, Mr. Wolf, or you'd know that your question is irrelevant.  A cursory reading of 2nd Thessalonians clearly states that persons such as ourselves are victims of a "strong delusion" sent by God Himself; any "signs" and "wonders" that cause us to believe in God would actually be causing us to recognize Anti-Christ as God while a person of true prayerful discernment would see through these deceptions because his faith is a pure faith and the glory of Creation and the maintenance of God's Word in the form of the Bible is all he needs to seal that faith.  So even if the stars tore themselves out of place and rearranged themselves to state that God loved humanity and truly desired to save it from itself, a Christian would be obliged to ignore that message and decry it, given that the Bible does not state that such a thing will happen.

But then if you're not speaking from a purely apocalyptic Christian perspective, perhaps just from a Deistic one, well, that God's not going to make Himself known anyway, as a Deistic God is defined as a prime mover and little else (maybe a designer and knob twiddler as well, but not an interested one).  I suppose that there's a wide interim in between the intensely personal God(s) of the world's scriptures and the God of Paine and his friends, but you're going to have to give us a precise definition, here.  And if you have your own religion that doesn't follow Christianity or Judaism or any other established faith right down the line, then why should we listen to you?  I'm at least going to go for a popular God if I do go for one.

I don't know how many of the folks here would agree with me on this one, but I'll flatly state that my attitude toward a prime mover is actually purely agnostic.  I don't know enough, despite not inconsequential study, about the beginning of the universe to absolutely state that a prime mover is necessary or not.  My atheism only comes in when talking about the various ideas of God held by human cultures, and that's because every single one of those conceptions of God are inextractably bound together with predictions about the nature of the universe that science rejects.  

 

 

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I would accept no form of

I would accept no form of scientific evidence of God, because the concept of evidence doesn't apply to God.  At least, not to the supernatural and omnipotent conception of God.  You can't apply the concept of evidence (the measurement of natural phenomena) to the existence of an all-powerful being capable of ignoring or rewriting natural phenomena at will, and who exists somehow independently of those phenomena in the first place.

With physical evidence ruled out, I would accept some form of philosophical argument. The argument would have to be internally and externally consistent, and actually demonstrate the same of God's existence. There would have to be no manner of ridiculousness like God somehow existing outside, before, or after existence.  In other words, it can't break my brain.

 

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Quote:I don't know how many

Quote:
I don't know how many of the folks here would agree with me on this one, but I'll flatly state that my attitude toward a prime mover is actually purely agnostic.  I don't know enough, despite not inconsequential study, about the beginning of the universe to absolutely state that a prime mover is necessary or not.  My atheism only comes in when talking about the various ideas of God held by human cultures, and that's because every single one of those conceptions of God are inextractably bound together with predictions about the nature of the universe that science rejects.

I disagree on the basis of the fact that, without some form of special pleading, you can't state the above without also then implying that agnosticism is the appropriate stance on any unfalsifiable claim.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Quote:I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
I don't know how many of the folks here would agree with me on this one, but I'll flatly state that my attitude toward a prime mover is actually purely agnostic.  I don't know enough, despite not inconsequential study, about the beginning of the universe to absolutely state that a prime mover is necessary or not.  My atheism only comes in when talking about the various ideas of God held by human cultures, and that's because every single one of those conceptions of God are inextractably bound together with predictions about the nature of the universe that science rejects.

I disagree on the basis of the fact that, without some form of special pleading, you can't state the above without also then implying that agnosticism is the appropriate stance on any unfalsifiable claim.

Yeah, I know.  I'm actually okay with that implication in this conversation, given that every religion (other than maybe a very basic prime mover kind of Deism) conveniently includes at least a few falsifiable claims that are just as essential to the practice of the religion as the unfalsifiable claims are.  The Abrahamic faiths, for example, postulate the existence of an immortal soul, which is an unfalsifiable claim, but also postulate the infallibility of scriptures in which the very concept of the immortal soul is recorded.  That gives the claim that there exists an immortal soul equal weight (for the believer) with the claim that humans were made from dust or from a clot of blood or the claim that God saved humanity from a worldwide flood by the requisitioning of expert carpentry.  I don't have to prove the immortal soul doesn't exist to prove the Bible wrong, I can prove any of the many falsifiable claims wrong and do comparable damage.  If the believer walks away without his faith in the infallibility of the text, who cares if he still believes in an immortal soul?

"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
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Why is it up to us to come

Why is it up to us to come up with what evidence it would take? Do your own damn homework. Define your "God" coherently, present the evidence you have to support that notion and then we'll see if it holds up to scrutiny. Why is that so hard for you theists?


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

I don't know. Whatever it is, I haven't encountered it yet. And that's precisely why I responded to you as I did in the other thread:

You claim to have evidence that convinced you.

You claim to want to discuss the matter.

I say: Present your evidence. Yours, mind you, not someone else's words. And please present all of it, because as you yourself indicated, no single incident is sufficient even for you.

Seriously, dude, there are folks here who would be willing to give your evidence a fair shake... but we can't unless you give it to us.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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I personally would require

I personally would require irrefutable evidence. I can't even begin to imagine what form this evidence would be presented in though. After all, it is hard to supply "physical evidence" for something that so clearly does not adhere to the laws of physics. Some sort of Divine Message would be acceptable as well. Although, truthfully, I would probably attribute it to some sort of enviromantally induced hallucination.

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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

- Suddenly receiving every episode of Girls Gone Wild in the mail. 

- Always getting a good signal on my T-Mobile phone. 

- An unlimited supply of root beer. (bottled)

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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If someone could prove that

If someone could prove that the chrisitian god existed I would hope to err god? that satan existed as the abrahamic god is pure evil beyond all redemption and just maybe satan who flaws seem to being 'human' might be able to take him/she/it on.

 

 


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

This is such an inanely ridiculous question. In order for me to believe in God, God would have to show up. I mean God. If God, or any other creature resembling God EVER showed up EVER, I would believe in that creature. I'm getting so sick of this. Just produce God, and I'll believe in it/him/her/whatever.

If God doesn't work that way, then God acts a lot like things that don't exist. Just sayin' is all.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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jcgadfly wrote:Wouldn't an

jcgadfly wrote:

Wouldn't an omniscient being already know this?


HOLY CRAP you think chuckg6261982 is omniscient.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

Well, lets see. I guess he'd have to come here from Asgard and whip up some thunder and smash something with Mjolnir. Maybe a tank, that would be cool. And then we'd ride in his chariot (pulled by the goats of course) and could go back to Asgard and party with Odin and Tyr, and Loki and drink mead and eat mutton chops and throw axes. Maybe he could introduce me to some of those giantesses he's always hanging out with. I'd like to party with them. And then maybe I'd get like a personal tour of Valhalla because I'm curious to see what that's like.

Yep, if all that happened it would be pretty tough for me to deny that Thor was real.


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:
What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?
Which one?

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Thomathy wrote:chuckg6261982

Thomathy wrote:

chuckg6261982 wrote:
What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?
Which one?

His God, of course. You know, the real one.


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Anonymouse wrote: His God,

Anonymouse wrote:
His God, of course. You know, the real one.
Oh, right!  How could I be so stupid?  I thought that perhaps he was being intentionally ambiguous.  Y'know, tryin' to screw with us, 'cause there's an infinite number of god-concepts.  Good thing that's not the case.  Well, since he's talking about the real God, why would I need convincing?  I mean, it's real, right?

 

 

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Which god are you refering

Which god are you refering to? If you mean just a generic god then most us us are open to the idea. However, from your past posts I understand you are refering to a personal god. God(s), if it/they exist cannot be understood or proven through science. The more specific the concept of a god is, the more unlikely it is. Belief systems DO NOT require evidence and science is not a belief system on par with religion. If someone believes the Earth is 6,000 years old, how much scientific evidence will it take to convince them that the Earth is much older? None will do as faith trumps reason in most individuals.

What evidence would make you rethink the existence of god? The question you've posited is loaded as you have not defined god.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Quote:Which god are you

Quote:
Which god are you refering to? If you mean just a generic god then most us us are open to the idea.

I'm not.

 

Well, not unless you're open to the idea of cybernetic ninja-trolls living in secret bases beneath the Earth's crust. Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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mrjonno wrote:If someone

mrjonno wrote:

If someone could prove that the chrisitian god existed I would hope to err god? that satan existed as the abrahamic god is pure evil beyond all redemption and just maybe satan who flaws seem to being 'human' might be able to take him/she/it on.

 

 

I agree. Even if anyone could prove the bible god existed, what would make it worthy of worship? Any god that is worthy of worship probably would not want to be, yet the judeo/christian/muslim god always seems to need constant affirmation. The problem is that theists cannot even truly understand their own belief system and try to pin the blame on atheists for denying god.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Well,

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Well, not unless you're open to the idea of cybernetic ninja-trolls living in secret bases beneath the Earth's crust. Sticking out tongue

You've discovered my secret base!

Oooo, you are in for some good old-fashioned cybernetic ninja-troll ass-stomping, my friend.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
Which god are you refering to? If you mean just a generic god then most us us are open to the idea.

I'm not.

 

Well, not unless you're open to the idea of cybernetic ninja-trolls living in secret bases beneath the Earth's crust. Sticking out tongue

Actually I meant "many" of us. I hate using "most" unless I can back something up with solid stats.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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chuckg6261982 wrote:What

chuckg6261982 wrote:

What would it take to make any one of you believe in God?

If you are going to say "scientific evidence," then go into specifics.  What kind of physical evidence would you look for?

All you would have to do is brainwash me.

Your parents brainwashed you and it worked.

After I was brainwashed,  I could believed without evidence, and think it was wrong to question that irrational belief.

However, I would not be as human - everything that I was, and everything that I could have been,  would be diminished by the delusion of religion.

when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"


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Considering how long god has

Considering how long god has been AWOL. And after considering the explanations and evidence for scientific theories. I'd probably need an actual demonstration, perhaps creating a human being? 

He was one of those men who think that the world can be saved by writing a pamphlet. - Benjamin Disraeli