Abortion Rant
Offline Why do people give a shit so much? It's not their baby, it's not in their body, it's not their business. I find it so obnoxious when people protest outside of abortion clinics thinking they can "save" a few babies. Great, so wallowing in more guilt as if it isn't hard enough to abort a child, the mother has the child and doesn't want it, or abuses it, or basically the poor kid isn't put out of it's misery BEFORE it becomes a full-fledged baby and has enough cognitive functioning to KNOW what's going on.
Why spend so much damn money, time and effort protesting and crying for FETUSES when there are starving, dying children out there with FULL CONSCIOUSNESS, RELATIONSHIPS and THOUGHTS. Children who NEED mothers, NEED food, NEED families. Those are the children that need help, not some collection of cells that is living inside someone else.
It makes me crazy sometimes. Religion makes people so blind to the obvious. If abortion weren't legal, women would do it anyway, paying lots of money or almost killing themselves with coat hangers. They would kill the baby as it comes out of them instead of aborting the fetus safely beforehand. At least now they can go to clean, professional facilities and not damage themselves. It's not like abortion is a fun-fillled expedition, it's one of the hardest things to do. It requires tons of careful thought. It's not like women just hump like rabbits and head on off to the clinic. Geez.
These wacko religious nuts would much rather see more retarded children who suffer from teratogens because their mother didn't want the child and thus didn't care for the child in the womb. They want more kids in the foster care system, living on the streets, abused, etc. They'd take that ANY DAY over having a small little fetus to die painlessly and quickly.
What. is. wrong. with. people.?
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
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Because they're asshats. I really don't even see why people are so rabid about babies - other than to parents who want them they are worthless - they are loud, annoying and smelly.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
It's not a solely religious issue. Some people may be motivated by their religion's teachings on morality but I have no religion and still have trouble accepting that abortion is something our society seems comfortable with.
I see it as taking away life from an individual. In some ways it's worse than murder to me because that individual never gets to experience life at all. Someone killed at age 20 got 20 years of experience. An aborted fetus gets none.
I understand all the pro-choice arguments and the whole issue of when someone actually gets the right to be considered human, and whether potential humans have any rights is too fuzzy for me to take a stand on it. I'm not going to wave signs and abuse women who have had or are seeking abortions but I understand why some people feel it's necessary to try to stop them. To them it is murder and they have a moral requirement to do something to prevent it.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
I honestly see no difference between jerking off and aborting a fetus - those sperm could have eventually become a human, too. Swatting a fly is way worse than abortion - the fly is alive on its own and trying to survive.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Abortion is a national issue, I suppose as long as people have a problem with it we'll keep talking about it. Its a great topic for debate but I agree with you in that campaigners (pro life or pro choice) generally do stick their noses in it. Abortion is a private issue concerning the people or families involved. Its the same as euthanasia, it should be left to the people involved rather than putting it to an unforgiving society who are trying to prevent what little free will we have.
Speaking of euthanasia, I generally find that people who are pro choice are generally anti euthanasia and vice versa.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true"
(Friedrich Nietzsche)
Peppermint, I agree completely.
Gamage90, I'm pro-choice and pro-euthenasia.
The catholic church would rather have children starving to death and dying from AIDS than allow their followers to use a condom too.
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
I don't support abortion.
I encourage it.
Seriously - what I do for a living brings me into contact with dozens of unwanted children every day. And I live in a well developed, economically viable part of the U.S. These kids suffer with self-loathing, no empathy, no sense of future, hopelessness, and a deeply ingrained sense that no one gives a damn.
Abortion doens't cut a life short, it prevents unnessesary suffering.
Until somoene can provide some real evidence that a foetus is anything more than a potential human life, that it has actual cognition and self-awareness, I will fully support abortion as that last line which gurantees no unwanted chilren.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
I imagine swatting flies is alot more fun than aborting babies.
I wonder if there are any atheists who oppose abortion, and can offer a convincing argument as to why? I'd be real interested in hearing that. Personally, it's a slightly grey area.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
Ditto.
Sorry that should be religious people.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true"
(Friedrich Nietzsche)
That's interesting. During the Teri Schaivo case it was the pro-lifers in congress who tried to intervene on the corpses behalf. I couldn't find the bumpersticker I was looking for but there's a common one featuring the silhouettes of a child and an elderly person that is pro-life at each end of peoples life span.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
I wonder if that's what he meant. Usually pro-life people are pro-life for the brain dead too (I think they feel some affinity with fetuses and the brain dead due to having similar intellectual capacity.) Strange thing is most of them FAVOR the death penalty (except for Catholics.)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
It's my understanding that literally all of the antiabortion groups and movements are religious based. From the stand point of religion they think all life is a gift from god. I think the "church" sees it as the more people, the more followers, the more money in the collection plates. I think the reason they are against euthanasia is because it would be inconsistent with their ploy for more followers. For the "church" its all a game of numbers and money, not that they would ever admit such a thing.
Abortion is a very sticky topic once you get away from the theological bullshit. It would be nice if there were an actual point where we knew without a doubt that the baby was able to survive on it's own. If there were a line it crossed when it was sentient enough to warrant trumping the mothers desires or needs. Very ugly topic full of opinions and beliefs and the crazy rants of Matt
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
I'm with ya on this one.
Jello wrote: "I wonder if there are any atheists who oppose abortion, and can offer a convincing argument as to why?"
I'm sure there are one or two, but not really. Think of it this way: if the US population is split roughly 50/50 along party lines, and party identification corresponds roughly to views on abortion, and 51% of the US population are Creationists, then that means that not only are there no pro-life atheists, but that there are hardly even any pro-life people who aren't Creationists.
Which is important since, you know, the abortion debate involves science, and anything a Creationist has to say about any scientific matter is inherently worthless.
Anyway, to respond to the original post: pro-life people could give two shits about fetuses/babies. It is all just a surrogate argument because they don't like sex. If they actually cared about fetuses, they would support things that actually lower the number of abortions (birth control, informed sex ed, etc.). But they don't... because they just want to yell at people (specifically women) who have sex, because they're bitter repressed losers.
I did a piece once on how to respond to pro-life arguments, so some of you may find this useful if you fight with these people: http://www.the1585.com/birmingham.htm
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Sexo Grammaticus is Lord High Editor of The 1585
The last time I saw a protester outside a clinic I asked him if he would physically harm or intimidate a woman if it meant he could stop her from having an abortion. To my surprise, he said yes. I walked away, but not before saying "I don't talk to terrorists."
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
I wish abortion wasn't necessary, but it is very necessary, needed and helpful. Science and communication evolution is the cure. Religion dogma is the curse of slowing progress.
Just for the record I've always been anti death penalty, and pro-euthanasia. Prisons, another important issue, should be healing centers, of zero mental torture. I am a law and order guy, but "punishment" needs to be re-examined. Our prison system is barbaric, just as our privately owned media etc.
Atheism Books.
Sexo Grammaticus
Thanks for the site link you posted. Cool quotes page and essays. Good to see that included that at the bottom of all your posts. Umm, we could all add a few fav site links .... by creating a quick reference desk top site link folder. Spreading the atheist "good news" ....
Atheism Books.