Christian deconversion in less than 5 minutes.
Offline Hey guys. In my endless experiences debating Christians, and watching other people attempt the same, it's always bugged me how we have to drive the conversation to the same points over and over again. It's also bothered me that many Atheists get to the core points, but don't word them in a way that really gets the validity of that point across to the believer.
Sooooo I made this video that immediately targets two major "crutches" that Christians think they have. We've all heard these arguments before, but I've just always felt it could be worded better so the average dumb-ass moderate theist can digest it quickly and easily.
Feel free to throw this video at someone before starting a fresh debate with them. It should kick their proverbial legs out before they can even get started.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRCEr2JlqPw
Sometime soon I'm gonna make a video that quickly and efficiently tackles the not-really-a-paradox of "How do you avoid nihilism as an Atheist?"
Thanks I enjoyed the video.I think that's a good point to bring up.I might just use some of it in the free will thread floating around.
Loc'n'Load
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Gathering atheists is like herding cats. But let's not wait until we're cornered to gather
Very nice.
Yes, God loves you, but he'd rather you burn in hell than do the ol' pillar of fire trick again. (not that that would actually be proof of god, but you get my drift)
Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.
Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51
Hey static_ ((( richie3622, you is rocking ! ....
http://www.youtube.com/user/richie3622
Obviously the video is awesome. Moving on.
It does seem like it would be easier to be a nihilist while being a Christian. Since, like you mention in the video, if you have an omnipotent God (which actually implies omniscience) then it's impossible for God to be disappointed. Omnipotence means you get everything you want, thus negating God's desire over every possible period of time. There is no point to human decision in that case, since it's pre-ordained.
The atheist has to make choices because there are choices to be made, and no magical creatures to concern one's self with. The decision committee is just smaller with an atheist, that's all.
Will: no gyration without funkstification.
Nitpick: omnipotence has to do with ability, not volition. Just because you have the power to do whatever you want doesn't necessarily imply that you will do whatever you want.
The argument about disappointment does work with an omniscient god, however. How could a being that knows the eventual outcome of everything ever be disappointed with the outcome he knew would happen? Disappointment stems from unmet expectations; since an omniscient god knows what will happen, he can never be disappointed since it would completely lack expectations due to the possession of perfect knowledge.
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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
I've been using an argument very similar to this one for a while. I would suggest making a small tweak to it. Instead of mentioning that god knew you would be an atheist, instead focus on the millions of people in Africa that will live their entire lives without knowing that christianity even exists.
This way, you can make virtually the exact same argument without ever even having to mention free will. It stricktly comes down to their loving god creating someone knowing that there is no chance that they would end up anywhere but hell. This is exactly what they beleive and is very easy to see the contradiction.
I haven't heard a rebuttle to this yet. However, actually getting someone to give up their religion is a lot harder that proving them wrong.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
nice. I subbed.
Well, here's the thing. The omniscience argument is most powerful when prodding at a lack of justification for God's punishment. However, Christians usually backpedal into "free will" as if it were some sort of safe haven - so you'll probably have to address that anyway.
The common rebuttal to this is that if you have never heard of God's word and Jesus you are not responsible for it and you get a free pass to Heaven.
Of course you can then counter that if humanity completely forgets about the Bible then all future generations will go to heaven. Which would be better than how they think it's working for us now with most of us going to hell.
Science. It works, bitches.
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
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If they were right about this, or even actually believe it, aren't evangelicals and missionaries complete assholes? If they just left people alone who never heard it they'd go to heaven, but if they tell them and fail to convince them they send them to hell! Wouldn't it be a lot nicer to just shut the fuck up or only go after people they know heard of it already and try to convince them to follow Christianity?
Faith is the brush that paints pictures of ghosts upon the canvas of fear to be hung in the gallery of ignorance.
Yeah so true. I know the Jesus story is full of contradictions, but big J said, "Pray alone". I think the best part of the J story is the simple message that all is one , and therefore no superstition, no dogma, and that was all that was meant as being the "saving" , "Good Word" to spread to the 4 corners. .... well that's the way I cherry pick the bi-bull ..... Jesus was an atheist !!! (a Buddha)
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I have always loved that cartoon. It makes me happy.
Anyway... great video. I think you have nailed your arguments. They're concise, powerful, and your delivery is awesome. Keep up the good work!
Never Mind, trust to chance -- keep a sharp look out -- There is many a happy slave.
--Charles Darwin, on whether or not he ought to marry.
Thanks Hamby ^_^
and thanks to everyone for the positive feedback
Master Jedi: that cartoon rocks hahah
How does one avoid nihilism as a Theist?
The meaning in one's existence is being a totally submissive slave to a jealous, angry, celestial dictator that demands you 'love' him or else be tortured in Hell for all eternity. The only morality is 'I better do what God tells me or he'll kick my ass'. Sounds like a pretty meaningless existence to me.
Stop global whining.
That was the whole point of my argument. There is no free will involved at all in my argument. There is no reason that it even needs to be addressed. It's black & white that their "loving" god created someone knowing that they were going to burn in hell for all eternity. It doesn't get anymore contradictory than that.
Where in the bible does it say that you get a free pass if you haven't heard "god's word"? I thought it was Jesus in the bible that said the only way to the father is through me (or something like that).
I do like Shizzles comeback though. It begs the question as to why tell anyone about Jesus then? If someone accepts then they are no better off than before, but if they don't believe you, then you have just committed them to an eternity in hell... nice going.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
V1per41, what I mean to say is that, when you start digging into the omniscience problem, many theists have a major comprehension issue.
I understand that free will isn't relevant to the actual point being made - but theists are spoon-fed in church (and private school) the idea that it somehow is relevant. They'll keep pushing "free will" on you as if it just has to be addressed, even though it means absolutely nothing . . . So you might as well include free will in the discussion so they have one less illusionary crutch to lean on.
Nowhere.
The differences between what I was taught growing up as a Southern Baptist and what the bible actually says is extreme. That's what the average christian will tell you if you ask from my experience. It's a way for them to rationalize away their belief in christianity and try to make it have some sort of logical sense to them. I rationalized a lot of shit for a lot of years to enable religion to make sense to me. Finally it all fell apart for me.
Only now can I analyze how extremely fucked up my previous views were.
Science. It works, bitches.
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
Douglas Adams