Understanding of Science in the US
Offline I've brought this up in a minor way in a few threads, but I'd like to focus on it - why is the state of education in/understanding of Science in the US at such an utterly abysmal level? From what I see most Americans don't have the level of Science knowledge a 6th grader should have - see all the idiots that don't know what a theory is, don't understand basic things, have no idea how to evaluate idiotic claims, etc. I really think they need to start teaching the basics of science much earlier - at least in 4th through 6th grade they should focs on basic scientific terminology, the scientific method, etc. And in the more applied classes in HS (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc) Focus on how things are done a bit more and less on memorization and formula learning. I also strongly feel they need to teach critical thinking - put some of the basics in Elementary school and have an entire class of it in Jr High - they can drop a year of art or such. Maybe have another at least semester/quarter of it in HS. I also think there should be a requirement in college of something like this or logic (luckilly I was given intro to logic my 1st semester as a freshman.) How much would you say religion has to do with the sorry state of most Americans understanding of Science/logic/critical thinking? And does this go hand in hand with the acceptance of other irrational claims like astrology, homeopathy, psychics, alien abductions, ec?
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
I had excellent science classes growing up, but I went to some of the best public schools in the state. They were known for higher test scores and good teaching. I really learned a ton of general scientific knowledge in grades 3-6 that I still retain today. I think I got lucky, because when I went to high school, there were some people that were from different states and school districts that didn't know squat. It has to do with the type of student you are, the teaching/educational system, and the overall beliefs of your personal/parental background. I specifically remember this one girl in my biology class when we were talking about evolution saying before we had even been taught about it that her parents told her not to listen to it. She literally asked to be excused when the teacher started talking about it. She was a Mormon, but otherwise, a fairly decent, rational, exceptionally smart student. She was a small minority, but there are people out there like that. A few other people said, they didn't believe in evolution(I think because their parents told them not to) but would still study it for the test. This was an AP class, and everyone in it was basically college-bound and A or B students, so not the norm, I know.
I think most intelligent secular people(not saying there aren't smart nonsecular people here) on this board agree there need to be about 5 basic things taught in school. Yes, I know some of these are already taught, and these aren't the only things that need to be taught.
1. General Science Education starting in first grade(small things obviously to start with)
2. Critical Thinking/Logical Reasoning Class
3. Guilt-Free Comprehensive Sex Education(starting at a younger age than middle school so that they can actually use their knowledge)
4. Mandatory Parenting Classes
5. Workforce Dynamics-ie getting a job, career choices, job options for those not college-bound, vocational programs that lead to careers etc.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
I dont remember crap from science class, I just remember being in there my 9th grade year and sitting next to a kid that would fart everyday thats all i remember now that is sad... I am in school to be a teacher... why cuz I never had a teacher that made me think, I could pass the tests and that was it, they didnt care about anything else, hence I want my kids to think on there own, not just some drivel that I throw on a board and they can memorize I want them to figure stuff out and know how to use the knowledge.
I'd disagree on mandatory parenting classes - by high school I knew I definitely didn't want to have kids.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
If it wasn't for my interested and enthusiastic dad I would basically know zero of the many sciences etc.
Grade school etc is a sad embarrassment on our adult selves .... What to do to fix it and the private media? The TV and the FCC are the devil ! When will the revolution get really moving? I must investigate this more. The activists? I am sick of just complaining.
Damn me .....
I don't think I am going to have kids either, but the majority of people have kids. If you think there are a lot of idiots out there, and I know you do, then I think you would agree that having classes that teach people to raise better kids, would be in everyone's best interest.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Another benefit would be that people would be better able to decide whether or not they personally want kids. Having kids is a lot of fucking work.. I don't even have kids, and I know this. If you're a woman, you get fat and mopey for nine months prior to popping out the little bundle of joy. Then you're still fat, and you have a mini human that cries, can't sleep through the night, and shits & vomits on you. Having kids is expensive, and takes a lot of effort and commitment to raise them right.
Yet, some people have this idealistic notion that it's gonna be like a cute-fest from the moment of conception - I feel this is especially true of teen moms, though I have no statistics to back that up. A parenting class would at least lay out the facts and show people just how hard it is. It would make a number of people reconsider.
Yes, the primary function of the class is showing that having sex without protection(and sometimes with)leads to babies, babies lead to at least 18 year commitments, leading to increased financial strain, life-altering events etc.
Getting people to understand that if their parents beat them and fucked them up, there is a fairly high probability they will do the same to their kids. Understanding these things when you are younger and malleable will make them actually think about what it entails to be a parent, rather than just getting married and having kids because thats what their parents and everyone else does. For so many people, they are ingrained socially(and of course biologically) that they have to have kids to be successful. Understanding the consequences of having kids at young ages with the first person you have sex with does not always entail a blissfully romantic relationship forever. This is starting to sound like an anti-children rant, but that is not my intention. As with every other subject, knowledge is power, and using critical thinking skills to apply that knowledge will usually lead to better results. Hopefully in this case, that would be fewer unplanned children and better parents.
I personally don't think I will have kids, but I haven't completely ruled it out.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
I'd have to agree with the mandatory requirement for the parenting class and all the others, particularly the critical thinking/logic class. I've been saying for years basic deductive logic should be started as early as grade school. Give kids the right tools to learn as early as possible. I wasn't all that great at math in school. It wasn't until I took a deductive logic class in college that everything clicked. It taught me to look at things in a different, ordered way.
Parenting class should be mandatory. How many people (teens and adult) say they aren't going to have children and do, like it or not. Parenting class isn't just about techniques for raising a child, it's also about child abuse/neglect, anger management, self esteem, communication and a whole host of other subjects. If kids were taught this at an early age I think there'd be a lot fewer problems in the world. Maybe even Bush might not have been such a total moron if he'd had to take these classes. (I agree, that's a stretch).
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
I think there is a reason that no one has ever won a million dollars on "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader." The idea that learning is a good thing and being smart is a wonderful talent are something to be ashamed of in this country. In my opinion skepticism follows intelligence, therefore a culture that doesn't promote intelligence wouldn't promote skepticism.
Maybe a better idea might be in order to get a diploma - either take the parenting class or get a free, subsidized sterilization? One thing that pisses me off is doctors that wont sterilize a woman who wants it before she either turns a certain age (usually 30) or has kids. I think someone is perfectly capable of deciding against at 18 - and we shouldn't be encouraging reproduction at the population level the world has. I personally don't want to pass on my defective genes - serious physical problems and mentally severe depression and aspergers. I think about killing myself at least once a week even now on strong anti-depressants. I also can't stand babies and don't want to deal with them.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
Yeah CircleK
The rich basically own the culture. It's a long story .... the solution is no masters needed to run the system , NO SECRETS, NO FEAR .... etc etc etc etc
Anyway, welcome to rocking RRS , lucky you .....
Because society settles for poor results. Teacher and admistrators can't be fired and the money continues to pour in no matter the quality of the education.
Yes, show parenting really suck so only an idiot would have a child after such a class.
Stop global whining.
Because the Religious Right has been in power for most of the last 25 years and they know that in order to control the masses you gotta keep them dumb and unquestioning. Learning science would make them think too much for their own good. People armed with scientific knowledge might actually question things like religion and wouldn't, therefore, blindingly support a president who is "bombing for peace" because God told him to.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Most of the people who didn't get parenting classes or sex ed don't know jack shit about it, even if they are parents. This goes back to an argument I got in a while back about non-parents knowing anything about parenting. Ask any therapist who does family counseling. Very few parents know jack shit about parenting. But... who are the teachers? Parents, mostly. Where are you going to get your curriculum for non-biased parenting classes?
The Christians are going to insist that you teach the value of going to church with your young kids. The atheists are going to insist that you discourage it. Some Christians are going to insist on advocating corporal punishment. Others are going to be vehemently opposed. This list would be near endless.
Do we have data about what's scientifically true? Yes and no. We have tons of correlation data. What we don't have is clear lines of causation, and even though I feel very strongly about various parenting issues based on what I perceive to be likely causal relationships, there are arguments that can legitimately be made for the other side.
Does anyone here really think that the U.S. could implement an unbiased, factual course on parenting, complete with the statistics, even when they disagree with the majority?
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
Hey, now. My mom's a teacher, and I can assure you, the money isn't that great for teachers. Administrators are a different matter, but that's how it always is: those in charge of the money make the most money. Go figure.
It is definitely society's fault we have a poor education system. It was designed to get farm workers on a regular schedule so they could be fit for factory work, and teach them to handle rote, tedious, boring tasks. It hasn't progressed much beyond that.
And then we have parents fucking it up. Half the problem with school is that the teachers and administrators have been emasculated, and have no true authority over the little snots. We live in a society where a teacher can't even hit a kid in self-defence. Parents insist on coddling their little evil bastards. And, they want teachers to teach their kids all the things they don't have time to teach, like manners and respect and the joy of learning. Never mind that teachers get the kids for a maximum of a few hours a week, compared to the parents' hours and hours of TV time.
But the parents want the right things taught to their kids, like intelligent design, and not that corrupting evolution bullshit.
Then there's the government, which spent more than a billion dollars over the last few years to teach kids abstinence-only. None of this showing kids how to acquire and properly don a condom. No teaching the kids that sex even exists, except to say, "Don't do it."
Then there's the method of funding schools here in the US, which favours kids in wealthy neighbourhoods, and gives urban kids very poor educations.
So the problems with our education system is the fault of all of us, not just the teachers. In fact, considering how little power (and money) teachers have, I'd say they're doing an admirable job in the face of a system that's stacked against education. The little tykes don't wish to learn, and society doesn't want them to learn, so the fact that the literacy level in the US is above 85% is pretty astonishing.
Some interesting facts I just learned:
- 43% of adults at Level 1 literacy skills live in poverty compared to only 4% of those at Level 5
- 3 out of 4 food stamp recipients perform in the lowest 2 literacy levels
- 90% of welfare recipients are high school dropouts
- 16 to 19 year old girls at the poverty level and below, with below average skills, are 6 times more likely to have out-of-wedlock children than their reading counterparts.
When I was in my senior year in college I remember things getting pretty dire and I was glad to be almost finished and out of there. Tuitions had gone up considerably during the last couple years there. They had laid off nearly 1/3 of their teachers and cut a lot of classes. It was so bad that many sophmores (getting lowest priority in registering for classes) could not get a single class they needed. Some couldn't get any and would just take a semester off. Yet, despite all that, the school was in the middle of building a new 3 story admistrative building! What crap.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Has anyone here wonder why the those with intellect are not always the ones who have better positions in life? While I would to advocate a better education system in our society, there is little merit to being educated or less ignorant than the next guy. The smartest ones often do not get the best positions. Being well-informed is really only for those who want to aware of whats going and to somehow take advantage of it if its possible. But if you're already successful regardless of being intelligent then whats the point?
Also can we really endow those of higher intellect and understanding to be relatively good people? I'm not saying those CEOs and those of the priviledged classes who prey on the consumers are geniuses but I have to give them some credit for being able to contrive a system where they can continue to hold their power and have the masses agree that its fair. Even if they don't agree they can be easily distracted. So giving someone pure intellect and understanding might only benefit that individual since its possible he/she will try to secure their position at the expense of those who are potentially just as intelligent.
I think what should really be taught is some rhetoric and communication skills through science and math. So that those who have the ability and conviction to communicate can rival those who preach superstition. Lets just face it that most people are swayed by passionate words than by pure reasoning. Lets promote science by creating more Jonathan Millers and Carl Sagans.
A) Depression - Depression in humans holds a beneficial trait in our evolution. Simply because you received a higher dose of this trait does not mean it is defective. Just that it is currently a detrimental trait in our society. Alter our environment and that trait of yours will better ensure your survival compared to the happy go lucky people. Mainly related to food supply. Play "god" with our genes by squishing out certain traits and you are only swiftening our road to destruction by narrowing our genetic variation.
B) Aspergers - *clears throat* Excuse me? Stop saying you have Aspergers, Matt. You are straight out Autistic with a capital A. Aspergers is "high functioning" Autism. You are not high functioning. Hence your desire for socialism. You are too defunct with autism to function successfully in society. Therefore you have the disturbing desire for society to conform to your handicap by killing off those that thrive in our society and giving their wealth to you.
Science. It works, bitches.
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
Douglas Adams
As far as why schools don't teach good science: dude, they don't teach good ANYTHING. The thing about capitalism is it makes everything about capital. Even the schools are competing for more money, and a lot of the time learning and expanding young peoples' minds is not compatible. the science they teach us is mostly to make us do good on out state standardized tests, ACTs and SATs. This mostly consists of reading charts and not much to do with the scientific process. The school gets more money, a few of the the students get a more impressive college application, but in general they get dumber for being there.
And as for a parenting class, it's cool to show kids the responsibility. My school actually has such a class as an elective. At one point you get an electronic baby that needs "feeding" and "changing" at random times with a timer to see how long it takes the student to respond. That's one of the few good things my school does. But you can't go telling people how to raise their kids because 1) a lot won't be paying attention or will ignore the lesson when the time comes, 2)if it works, you get a whole generation being raised basically the same and as one of the few free thinkers in my school, the idea of such conformity scares the shit out of me.
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
My therapist says I'm high functioning for Aspergers. True it's almost impossible for me to get a job because of it (maybe I should just say fuck it and collect SSI) but even if I was middle class I would want the exploiters to die for what they do to the lower classes. Making money off of someone else's back qualifies someone as the scum of the Earth.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
I generally tend to disagree with Matt on matters of socialism, but you've gotta admit the labor/management system we have in place makes it so we have all these corporate execs making not just livable wages but HUGE amounts off of people both here and overseas who can barely make ends meet. It's like the higher up the ladder one goes, the less purpose they seem to have, and the more they just drain society. this is just a generalization, though
I don't mind not getting into Heaven as long as there's cigarettes in Hell
I'd get a second opinion if I were you. I have Aspergers/Autism in varying degrees throughout my family. I can see the signs. I came to that conclusion about you after checking out all of your YouTube videos. It connected a lot of dots for me about some of your odd ideas like socialism and that the rich should be killed. If you are "high functioning" I'm King Tut.
Do you honestly think that running a business is just renting a building, hiring some people to work for you, and collecting half of what they make? Please. My father ran his own business. Also I've talked with a lot of other people who's parents ran a business, they ran a business, worked for people trying to start up a business, had my wife work for people that tried to start a business, etc.
There is so much stress, financial investment, work, etc. involved it is insane.
Not like a common laborer who shows up, works week by week to pick up a paycheck, and just moves along if everything tanks.
Research what it takes to successfully start a business, Matt. Read about how stressful it is and all the peril involved. You have some kindergarten version of it running around in your head. And you look like a moron spouting that shit.
I have nothing but respect for people that successfully make it starting up a business. That's because I know how hard it is. You act like they just sit in a chair, send out slaves, and take the sweat off their back. That's is completely, totally absurd.
Science. It works, bitches.
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
Douglas Adams
Actually the doctors at the hospital was sent after my recent suicide attempt had the same conclusion she did. I have nothing but respect for most small "mom and pop" business owners - very few of them are rich. I'm talking about the ones that make it big and then treat their employees like shit, or the CEO types who never really worked a day in their life ( CEO at a corporation - someone started the business and once it got big they sold it or some piece of shit took it over and then the stockholders pay someone to run it.) Socialism is by no means an "odd" idea - the US came relatively close to adopting it in the early part of the last century and most Western European countries could certainly be considered socialist.
Incidentally, what about my videos made you think that?
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
But if "mom and pop" make it big they should be killed and their wealth redistributed?
Sure, Matt, all CEOs (actually any real percentage of CEOs) have never worked a day in their life. BS. I bet most of them experienced mindless, backbreaking work and said to themselves, "Don't work harder, work smarter." I agree the extreme amount of differences between the salaries of CEOs and the base worker in American corporations in today's society is disturbing. However, to say they are being evil by taking on that responsibility for that overcompensated reward is retarded. I'd do it if I had the opportunity and was so inclined. I'd rather do without the huge stress compared to a "possible" payoff.
I did not say that it is an uncommon idea. I said that it was odd. The concept that everyone should get the same reward regardless of your level of contribution is a sure fire way to make everyone does the bare ass minimum. What's the reward for working more diligently? Nothing. Work half-ass, work your ass off, you get the same return. It's incentive to be a slack ass.
Your mannerisms, way of communicating, even some of your physical characteristics. Like I said, I have varying spectrums of Autism throughout my family. I could pick you out as being Autistic within two minutes of meeting and talking with you in real life. The high functioning autistic people in my family and those that I have met aside from my family are not near as easy to discern. You exhibit obvious indicators of the autistic syndrome. I would say that at best you could be considered mid-functioning autism. You aren't near as bad as my nephew J****. Not in the least. But my nephew D*****? Huge difference. You are much closer to J**** than to D*****. If D***** is a 5 on the Autism scale and J**** is a 95...well you are around 70.
Science. It works, bitches.
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
Douglas Adams
That's not socialism at all - in fact our current system those that work hardest make the least. Getting richly rewarded is mostly based on luck and who you know. I guess maybe it could be true if the mental-retardation link to classic autism is no longer true - my IQ was tested as "very superior" except in a few areas - "average" in memory/Mechanical( meaning rotating objects and such) and "below average" in noticing detail. I am pretty much utterly clueless in social situations.
From what you know would you say I should still try to work or just get SSI? I do qualify for it - they told me in the hospital. I can't do physical kind of work due to my limitations there. I was going to look to something like Data entry. Only been out of work less than 2 months and am severely bored. I want to work but won't do anything gross like cleaning toilets and dealing with the public is obviously right out.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
Then you're evil!
j/k
Nah, it does take a lot to work your way up to CEO and you have a hell of a lot of responsibility. So if you're CEO you should be well paid. BUT ... I think what bothers Matt, which is what bothers me, is when you see CEOs getting $125 million salaries while laying off 500 employees, or cutting wages, then giving themselves another $5 million bonus for having "cut expenses". Hard to believe they couldn't have given up a few million from their salaries to save those jobs, knowing they'd still stay stinking filthy rich on "only" $120 million salary. Same with corporations like Wal-mart that get rich off sweatshop workers. People argue that, well, those sweatshop workers are better off slaving away for Wal-mart than starving with no jobs. Yeah, I suppose you can argue slavery is better than starvation. But they shouldn't have to choose between only those two options when it would hardly make a dent in Wal-mart's profits to offer better working conditions. Just because you have the opportunity to get rich off someone does not make it OK to take advantage of their desperation. You have a moral obligation to be fair and humane. I'm all for rewarding people for hard work, and allowing people to get rich from it, but when they are literally getting rich by making others poor or causing suffering then I feel there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Yeah Theia and Matt, what is fair? It takes a system to get rich. Who runs the system? The system , is the human race. Fix the system. It fucking needs fixing. I must go down town and smash the corporate temple of hypocrites ..... me Jesus is pissed !