very disturbing news from Wis.
Offline i was looking at a news site when i stumbled across this gem.
it just sickens me that the authorities have not taken the other children away.
the full story wcco.com/local/praying.parents.arrested.2.684930.html
so in a nut shell a girl died from untreated diabetes. and of all things "The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."
i feel like throwing up after this .......excuse me....
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." - Dr. Richard Dawkins
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Offline They're getting charged! 
WESTON, Wis. (AP) - April 28, 2008 -- A couple who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes will be charged with second-degree reckless homicide, a prosecutor said Monday.
"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said.
Madeline Neumann, daughter of Dale and Leilani Neumann, died March 23 at the family's rural Weston home. An autopsy determined she died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body.
The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. Charges were being filed later Monday, Falstad said.
Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.
The couple and their lawyer did not immediately return messages left by The Associated Press.
Leilani Neumann, 40, told AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.
Dale Neumann, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Madeline, who was being home-schooled, was in good health until she started getting tired about two weeks before she died, her mother has said. When the situation got worse over Easter weekend, "we stayed fast in prayer then," Leilani Neumann said. "We believed that she would recover."
According to a search warrant request, the girl's grandmother told investigators she had been ill for several days, was "very tired," and wanted to be held by her mother. By March 22, Madeline couldn't walk or talk, her grandmother said.
The grandmother said she told Leilani Neumann to take the girl to the doctor but the mother said her daughter "would be fine and God would heal her," the court record said.
The grandmother eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California, who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched to the home shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.
The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16.
The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.
In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said.
(Copyright ©2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
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Offline That's good news, but I doubt they will be convicted. They religous uproar would be huge, with the 'we're persecuted' group running around. Them getting a slap on the wrists is probably too much to hope for.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline a link to ABC News.....www.abcnews.go.com/Health/DiabetesResource/story
AP....ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2S4_VL61HrJgLKWc4HOixPEj4KAD90B2I105
And Google's page to a lot more.....http://news.google.com/news?hl=en_US&ncl=http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2S4_VL61HrJgLKWc4HOixPEj4KAD90B2I105
does this make anyone else jump up and yell YEEESSSSS like your team just scored a goal?
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." - Dr. Richard Dawkins
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Offline A least Madeline Kara Neumann isn't suffering anymore.
(sarcastic remarks about the parents and their efforts at prayer not included out of respect for this innocent child whose only mistake was being born to these parents) .
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline A least Madeline Kara Neumann isn't suffering anymore.
(sarcastic remarks about the parents and their efforts at prayer not included out of respect for this innocent child whose only mistake was being born to these parents) .
I don't see how sarcastic or angry remarks about the parents are disrespectful to the child, who is after all dead because of their actions.Should we rather not say anything about these things other than that it's sad the child died?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline A least Madeline Kara Neumann isn't suffering anymore.
(sarcastic remarks about the parents and their efforts at prayer not included out of respect for this innocent child whose only mistake was being born to these parents) .
I find it ironic that the god these parents prayed to was the same god (in their eyes) that blessed them with that child.
To say the child made a mistake is to say that the child had a choice to born to a couple of lunatics.
Slowly building a blog at ~
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Offline "To say the child made a mistake is to say that the child had a choice to born to a couple of lunatics."
>>>
That was my point. Same with any child born into a religious/pious family.
We, as citizens, have agreed to abide by certain rules of conduct to protect ourselves and each other. However, when it comes to religion, we can't protect children from their parents and their parent's religious beliefs. Sad. Very sad.
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline Neumanns face charges for not seeking treatment for daughter
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080611/GPG0101/806110714/1978/GPGbusiness
WAUSAU — A town of Weston couple accused of praying for their 11-year-old daughter's recovery rather than seeking medical attention is getting a look at some of the evidence against them.
Dale Neumann, 46, and his wife, Leilani, 40, appeared in court Tuesday on felony charges of second-degree reckless homicide and waived their right to a preliminary hearing in exchange for a small, white box of documents. They reached a deal with prosecutors who were not obligated to turn over the evidence at this time.
Madeline Kara Neumann died March 23 from complications of untreated diabetes, according to a medical examiner. Kara's parents told investigators they did not know she had diabetes.
Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard on Tuesday ordered the couple to stand trial in the case that has drawn national attention. Howard rejected a motion by the Neumanns' attorneys to dismiss the case.
Howard also ruled that the criminal complaint provided sufficient information for the attorneys to begin preparing their defense. Dale Neumann's attorney, Jay Kronenwetter, had asked the judge to have prosecutors explain what specific actions the Neumanns took that caused their daughter's death.
"It does indicate, at least to me, there is enough here to show there is a subjective realization on the part defendants that the health of their daughter was seriously impaired," Howard said. "And at least to an objective observer, (it) would indicate the need of prompt medical treatment."
An arraignment, where the Neumanns would enter a plea, is expected to be scheduled later this month.
Kronenwetter also withdrew a motion asking for certain personal belongings to be returned to the Neumanns. Prosecutors agreed to return some items and will provide copies of passages from a Bible and journals they might use as evidence. The Neumanns' computers remain at a state Crime Lab where they are being examined, Falstad said.
>>>
I can't wait for this case to come to trial. It looks like it might be 'fun'.
This story got some initial media attention, and although it might shed an unfavorable light upon the state...I hope this grabs attention.
I'm certain it won't come down to a 'god doesn't exist' drama, but I believe the case will be interesting.
These parents are already claiming indigence so, we the taxpayers are footing the bill for their defense. I heard a rumor that some religious group was going to pay to defend these people, but that's not happening.
>>>
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21406/faith-healing-madeline-neumann
Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard appointed Wausau attorney Jay Kronenwetter to represent Dale Neumann at the county’s expense, even though Neumann and his wife own two homes valued at half a million dollars.
Kronenwetter, who has yet to accept the appointment, was recommended by attorney Gene Linehan. Linehan represented Dale Neumann, 46, and his wife, Leilani, 40, on Wednesday and at the couple’s initial court appearance last week.
Linehan, who will continue to represent Leilani Neumann, said each of the cases likely will cost $100,000 in legal fees and might rack up more expenses if the cases end up in the state appeals and Supreme courts>
>>>
Go figure. Nor do I believe it's 'right' or 'fair' that these people get to claim 'poverty' and get a public defender when they have two properties valued at $500,000 (more or less). I don't care what the market is like...force them to sell their property and pay for their attorney until the money runs out.
I'm not going to be overly surprised if the courthouse is packed and even picketed by both pro and con and every variety in between.
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline there was someone i think youth minster that totally forgot he had his baby girl with him and the kid died did anything happen to that guy??? i heard it like once or twice and never heard anything else on it. i hope he had to serve sometime i dont see how you can forget you had a baby in your car while going to do church work!! guess god was all he could think of!!
General
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Offline there was someone i think youth minster that totally forgot he had his baby girl with him and the kid died did anything happen to that guy??? i heard it like once or twice and never heard anything else on it. i hope he had to serve sometime i dont see how you can forget you had a baby in your car while going to do church work!! guess god was all he could think of!!
General
I don't know the person/case you are referring to. Perhaps...if you could remember the person's name you could do a google search or a criminal background check for the state (w/ the person's name).
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline thanks
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Offline i was looking at a news site when i stumbled across this gem.
it just sickens me that the authorities have not taken the other children away.
the full story wcco.com/local/praying.parents.arrested.2.684930.html
so in a nut shell a girl died from untreated diabetes. and of all things "The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."
i feel like throwing up after this .......excuse me....
>>>
Healing through prayer alone under fire across country
http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=96298
The recent death from untreated diabetes of an 11-year-old Wisconsin girl has invigorated opposition to laws in many states that let parents rely on prayer, rather than medicine, to heal sick children.
Dale and Leilani Neumann of Weston, Wis., are facing charges of second-degree reckless homicide after their child, Madeline Kara Neumann, died on Easter after slipping into a coma.
The death, likely preventable with insulin, has renewed calls to strike laws that protect parents who choose prayer alone in lieu of medical treatment.
The case also has frustrated the Church of Christ, Scientist, the main promoter of prayer as therapy, which says a few tragic cases have unfairly tarred a practice that can restore health.
The Neumanns, a Christian couple, are not Christian Scientists. The NationalCenter for Health Statistics, a federal agency, estimated in 2004 that more than 2 percent of the population uses prayer rituals.
"No one should be presumed to be guilty or innocent ... because they've chosen spiritual care," said Phil Davis, a Christian Science church spokesman.
Case may lead to changes
Lawyers are eager to see if the Neumann case sparks more changes in state laws.
It raises a "national discourse as to whether children can be medically neglected legally," said Marci Hamilton, a professor at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York who writes about children's rights.
In another case, a 15-month-old in Oregon died in March of pneumonia and a blood infection after her parents opted to try to heal her with prayer.
Oregon law provides no defense for parents charged with causing the death of a child in such cases, and the couple has been charged with second-degree manslaughter and criminal mistreatment.
Lawmakers under pressure
There's been a steady push against state provisions protecting spiritual healing.
A Massachusetts bill that would have protected parents who used prayer in lieu of medical treatment stalled in committee last year.
In Maryland, lawmakers in 2005 repealed part of a law that had protected parents from losing custody if they withheld medical treatment because of religious belief. And in Maine that year, legislators repealed part of its family law that said children couldn't automatically be considered abused solely because they were treated by spiritual means by an accredited practitioner.
The case against the Neumanns also highlights an obscure area of child-protection law that will force judges to weigh seemingly conflicting laws: If a state permits people to employ prayers for healing, can it then hold a parent criminally liable if those prayers fail?
The role of Christian Scientists
The recent deaths of children have spotlighted the lobbying work of the Church of Christ, Scientist, a denomination with anywhere from 60,000 to a half-million members, according to various estimates. The group believes that health can be restored through a stronger connection with God - in effect, willing the body to be healthy.
The church is the largest that supports relying on prayer for healing, though other small sects do, as well. Many religious denominations advocate prayer in conjunction with medical treatment.
The Christian Science church doesn't provide guidance on whether members may seek medical care, said Davis, the church spokesman. He said the church does not bar members from getting medical care nor does it advise members when they should do so.
Church founder Mary Baker Eddy said fear creates the image of disease and its manifestation in the body.
>>>
Hey, Mary Baker Eddy...you want an 'image of disease' look in the mirror!
These looneys shouldn't be allowed to procreate.
All one has to do is read their holey book to realize that it doesn't proclaim that praying for healing works...unless you are JC (maybe). The god of their holey book seems to be capricious indeed when it comes to responding to prayers for healing of the sick...and doesn't seem to respond to just anyone.
So unless the person you have chosen to pray for your health happens to have god on 'speed dial', I would strongly recommend you call and make an appointment with a medical practitioner who has been board certified and licensed to practice medicine in your state. At least then if something goes wrong, you can at least get a reason why and it won't be that you didn't pray loud enough.
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080723/WDH0101/807230661/1981/WDHopinion
A woman accused of not taking conventional actions to save her dying child is now asking a judge to rescind a safety plan set up by the court to protect her surviving children.
Leilani Neumann asked Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard to modify her bond, according to a motion filed last week.
Howard ordered the parental oversight plan April 30 when Neumann and her husband, Dale, were charged with second-degree reckless homicide. The plan was created by the Department of Social Services and includes having two people close to the family serve as caretakers.
The motion claims the arrangement was "unduly burdensome in the past" and "unnecessary for the protection of the defendant's children."
The motion also asserted the county's review of the Neumanns' other children's well-being has been completed. A message left with Marathon County Corporation Counsel Scott Corbett, whose office oversees those reviews, was not returned.
Madeline Kara Neumann, 11, died March 23 from complications of diabetes, according to the county's medical examiner. The couple told investigators that they chose to pray for her recovery instead of seeking medical assistance. Kara's parents have maintained they did not know she had diabetes.
No date has been set for the motion to be heard. The Neumanns' next scheduled court appearance is Aug. 19 when they are scheduled to enter a plea to the homicide charge.
>>>
No way I would give those surviving children back to the custody of their parents. The parents are charged with a capital (felony) offense. They failed to properly care for one child that was (critically) sick. These parents also failed to recognize the urgency of their daughter's condition. Who can say these parents won't use the same strategy if another of their chlidren becomes seriously ill while in their 'care'?
Besides, these parents need to be working as many hours as possible to pay for their attorney's fees. With 2 propertys to put on the block, they shouldn't be granted a public defender (they have financial resources to liquidate for their defense fund).
I just hope that the 'two people' currently caring for the surviving siblings aren't as careless or stupid as the biological parents have proved to be.
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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I might get blasted for back seat modding, but this is the third thread about this. Jeez people, do a quick search before posting something that's a hot topic like this. It's common procedure on most forums. Anyway, here's the orginal http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13231
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
*mod edit* Thread moved to News
In Camel's defence, I wasn't able to find any of the other threads using the search function and the link doesn't send me to an active thread either.
Those parents should be convicted of murder, pure and simple. I don't know what else you call it when you deny someone needed medical attention, especially a minor in your care.
Their religious views are irrelevant, or should be. There are a very few excuses for murder: actual or temporary insanity and self-defence are the only three I am aware of, and none of them are factors in this case. Certainly religious convictions are not listed.
The Wisconsin prosecutor needs to arrest these two for murder or admit that he's presiding over a theocracy.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Now remember, I have a BS in Psychology:
I would say that mother is - and this is a technical term - Nuckin' futz.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Just received this from the FFRF:
Law Sanctifies Child Homicide in Name of Faith
Memorialize 11-Year-Old Madeline by Removing Faith Exemption
March 28, 2008
As a memorial to the painful, frightening and needless death of Madeline Kara Neumann, the Wisconsin Legislature needs to finally show some gumption, and remove from the statutes its exemption sanctifying child homicide in the name of faith.
Statement by Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor
Freedom From Religion Foundation Co-Presidents
The death of an 11-year-old child from illness is always tragic, but what puts Madeline Kara Neumann's death last Sunday in a different class is that it is unforgiveable. Madeleine's long descent into diabetic ketoacidosis was unnecessary, preventable and the result of willful negligence on the part of her bible-believing parents.
It's one thing for an adult to choose prayer over medicine. But it is sheer child sacrifice to permit parents to eschew medical diagnosis and treatment of ill offspring. Parents do not own their children, much less have the right to endanger their children's lives by callously disregarding medical needs in the name of religion.
What's even more appalling is the ambivalent reaction: "Ethicists say case unclear," reports the Wausau Daily Herald. The Herald quoted bioethicist Dr. Norman Fost of the University of Wisconsin Medical school warning that it's important not to be moralistic or pass judgment on parents who think they can heal a child through prayer: "They believe they're helping their child; they love their child, and they believe prayer has an effect."
However deluded the parents may be, the rest of us need not countenance or indulge that dangerous delusion.
Dean Zuleger, the administrator of the Village of Weston, was quoted by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel saying, "There is a general sense of grief and sadness. Because I know the family a bit, there is a great deal of concern for their well-being." The parents' well-being?
"Death draws out difficult issues" read a headline in the Journal Sentinel. While Madeline's drawn-out death, involving nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, weight loss and weakness, is very difficult to read about, there is nothing difficult at all about deciding where the blame lies. "The prayer of faith will heal the sick," according to James 5:15. The fault lies in society's laudatory attitude toward a "holy book" which teaches superstition and faith-healing, whose passages are latched onto by bible literalists, and whose obedience to such injunctions has been given a pass in the criminal statutes of many states.
The mother, Leilani Neumann, of Weston, Wis., publicly announced: "We need healing. We are going through the healing process." What about the healing process her daughter required? This helpless dependent of a middle-class family had last seen a doctor at the age of three, and recently had been pulled out of public schools for religious home-schooling, possibly to cover up symptoms of her illness, which, according to medical experts, would have surfaced at least six months ago.
Legally, the question will revolve over whether the family recognized the seriousness of the illness. A chronology has emerged which belies the family's claim that they did not realize how sick Madeline was, including logs of their calls around the country to relatives (who notified authorities just before her death that Madeline was seriously ill) and to David Eels, whose Unleavened Bread Ministries operates AmericasLastDays.com. Eels, of Pensacola, Fla., admitted he prayed for Madeline the day before she died, and that the family phoned him Sunday, as they followed an ambulance with their dead daughter to the hospital, asking him "if I would pray that the Lord would spare her and raise her up, which I did."
Leilani Neumann told reporters she and her husband are not worried about an investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
Their "best" was not good enough. Nor is the religious exemption provided for by Wisconsin statutes, similar to what many states have adopted under pressure of the Christian Science lobby. What they don't realize is that doing nothing to help their daughter is parental negligence, which is criminal. The parents can still be charged, at least with some form of negligence or child abuse. But more action is required.
As a memorial to the painful, frightening and needless death of Madeline Kara Neumann, the Wisconsin Legislature needs to finally show some gumption, and remove from the statutes its callous exemption sanctifying child homicide in the name of faith.
Freedom From Religion Foundation • PO Box 750 • Madison, WI 53701 • (608) 256-8900 • e-mail us© Freedom From Religion Foundation.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Logic shows there are 4 possible explanations for why this happens so often:
1. God isn't real, you fucking dumbasses.
2. God's there but expects you to get your lazy asses to the doctor. "What the fuck you expect me to do everything for you? Don't fucking have kids if you're not going to take care of them. Yeah, praying's nice, but I didn't create you to just have me be your damn slave, you dumb motherfuckers!"
3. God doesn't really give a shit - note this is equivalent to the regular Christian copout for prayer not working "It wasn't God's will." - Well then why the fuck bother praying?
4. Ummm.... Jesus fucked up?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
>>> Wisconsin State statutes
Start with the definition of a child
http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gatewa ... &jd=948.03
948.01(1)
(1) "Child" means a person who has not attained the age of 18 years, except that for purposes of prosecuting a person who is alleged to have violated a state or federal criminal law, "child" does not include a person who has attained the age of 17 years
Then the fun part...skip to 948.03(4) and 948.03(6)
948.03(4)
(4) Failing to act to prevent bodily harm.
948.03(4)(a)
(a) A person responsible for the child's welfare is guilty of a Class F felony if that person has knowledge that another person intends to cause, is causing or has intentionally or recklessly caused great bodily harm to the child and is physically and emotionally capable of taking action which will prevent the bodily harm from occurring or being repeated, fails to take that action and the failure to act exposes the child to an unreasonable risk of great bodily harm by the other person or facilitates the great bodily harm to the child that is caused by the other person.
948.03(6)
(6) Treatment through prayer. A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted under s. 48.981 (3) (c) 4. or 448.03 (6) in lieu of medical or surgical treatment.
There will (most likely) be no charges. The state (police) did seize computers, medical books, and medical (insurance) cards from the home. The other children were removed from the home and examined for any life threatening illnesses being left untreated (found to be otherwise healthy).
The state will have a hard time proving that these people weren't acting in the best interest of their dead daughter. Sad, but true. The state has to prove these parents somehow knew there child was sick enough to die from this illness. They hadn't taken the daughter to a doctor in 8 years. The parents can even opt out of 'standard'/required immunizations just by saying (signing the appropriate Student Immunization Record (form) that they have a 'personal preference' not to immunize their children). If there are such forms on file for their children and enough evidence (i.e., 8 years of no doctor exam), there isn't much the state can do.
I remember a time when going to a chiropractor wasn't considered having a 'real' doctor. People went to chiropractors for all sorts of illnesses that would have been better treated by medicine. Who ever heard of a chiropractor curing something like gallbladder/appendix?
But you couldn't sue someone for failing to go to the 'right' doctor or for trusting a 'fake' doctor. (Chopra and similar come to mind immediately).
Personally, IMO, the daughter is better off dead. At least now she doesn't have to look forward to a life on insulin (which her parents probably wouldn't have provided for the condition). She could have eventually gone blind or have developed some other complication of diabetes (for which her parents would have prayed to relieve).
Sorry, but I'm also not in favor of the state dictating what, if any, medical intercession a person must submit to to save their life or treat a disease or defect.
Personal choice. Personal freedom. Unfortunately, this 11 yr old girl didn't have a choice or the freedom to decide. Perhaps if we had been able to ask her, a different decision and outcome would have resulted...such as the girl being removed from her family, placed in state custody, and forced to take insulin for the rest of her life.
We don't allow 11 year olds to make those decisions for themselves, because we don't believe they are capable of such 'adult' decisions. The parents didn't have their parental rights terminated...even though other family members were sufficiently concerned to (belatedly) contact the local authorities. Too late, the girl died.
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
>>> Wisconsin State statutes
Start with the definition of a child
http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gatewa ... &jd=948.03
948.01(1)
(1) "Child" means a person who has not attained the age of 18 years, except that for purposes of prosecuting a person who is alleged to have violated a state or federal criminal law, "child" does not include a person who has attained the age of 17 years
Then the fun part...skip to 948.03(4) and 948.03(6)
948.03(4)
(4) Failing to act to prevent bodily harm.
948.03(4)(a)
(a) A person responsible for the child's welfare is guilty of a Class F felony if that person has knowledge that another person intends to cause, is causing or has intentionally or recklessly caused great bodily harm to the child and is physically and emotionally capable of taking action which will prevent the bodily harm from occurring or being repeated, fails to take that action and the failure to act exposes the child to an unreasonable risk of great bodily harm by the other person or facilitates the great bodily harm to the child that is caused by the other person.
948.03(6)
(6) Treatment through prayer. A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted under s. 48.981 (3) (c) 4. or 448.03 (6) in lieu of medical or surgical treatment.
>>>
http://www.bendweekly.com/Opinion/Editorials/15101.html
The parents even prayed twice over the phone with David Eells, founder of Unleavened Bread Ministries and the Web site www.americaslastdays.com and the author of the book "Sovereign God". But they didn't seek medical help."
I'm not up to the challenge, but IMvHO, David Eells needs to be b!tch slapped in the worst possible way. His website should be inundated with an enormous post that enumerates the fallacies of 'faith healing'.
Hey...this David Eells FAILED to heal. Does that mean his faith is weak? How many people has he healed (ever) and just how many people has he failed to heal.
Isn't that a crime? Isn't it fraudulent/fraud if he claimed he could heal by prayer?
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz