I've never understood this line of reasoning. I won't be around when the universe goes cold. Neither will my children nor my grandchildren nor their great great great great great great great grandchildren. How can the fact that the universe will eventually go cold be at all relevant to me or any member of our species? If it isn't relevant to us then how can that effect any purpose we should concern ourselves with?  Purpose is what one finds important in their life. No other purpose can matter to a given person. 

This line of questioning assumes that the only type of purpose that we should find important is imposed purpose (I wouldn't call it 'higher' as I can't see why another entity's purpose should be higher than one's own), a purpose removed from the actual existence purpose is being considered by, but in reality I can't see why imposed purpose should be considered relevant to those it is imposed upon at all.

Let's say you have one million dollars in your hand. Is that one million dollars unimportant because the universe will eventually go cold or is it useful to you and others (if you are giving) in our present situation?

What gives a God a purpose? Does it give purpose to itself? Does it receive its purpose from some power "higher" than it? I have concluded that either a) that God is purposeless, b) that God is not required for a "higher" purpose (meaning we receive that through some other means, e.g. karma, dharma, etc.), or c) that a "higher" purpose has no real meaning, and that subjective purpose is the only purpose that actually exists.

Of course it doesn't make a difference.  You should murder and rape everyone you know.  Wont that make you feel good?  

NOT! (not to mention the prison time you'll have wasted in the only life you get)

If people exist that think without an invisible friend it doesn't make any difference what they do, then you should be thanking god that they're speaking up.

No, just like 9-11 made no difference, neither does fighting for a world in which we embrace truth.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I have a hard time believing that you actually believe the things you're asking us to respond to.  If you do in fact feel the way that it appears you do, I am blown away at your lack of critical thinking to analyze these issues.

Most atheists would hope that you overcome it, for the safety and well being of yourself and all of those around you.

Huh?  Evolution isn't a game in which someone wins and someone loses.  All species life on Earth dies at somepoint.  If you believe ina creator you believe that God is responsible for every death in the history of the planet, ultimately it's his plan, right?

One of my purposes is to help people like you overcome their delusions.  Is your purpose to delude yourself by asking very nonsensical questions of those people in an attempt to make yourself feel better about the delusions you hold?

For New Atheists: Is This Really All There Is?

• What Does Sugar Have To Do With Murder?!
•  

Here's my take on it, which will be somewhat different from the other responses so far:

Even if God exists, you can't know what the higher purpose is anyway, since you can't know the mind of God. The so-called 'higher purpose' is just another unknown.

Of course it does. You are assuming that if there's no 'higher purpose' there's no purpose at all. If you hurt someone, it matters to them what you did. If you have empathy for people (only psychopaths don't), then it will also matter to you when someone gets hurt.

It seems like you're saying "If my actions don't have any effect on the ultimate state of the universe, then they have no meaning at all." First, this is a pretty nihilistic outlook. Second, we know from physics that everything is interrelated and no action can occur without a reaction. Ultimately, your actions affect everything around you, and ultimately affect the whole universe already. You can't know exactly what effect that will be, but you're not omniscient so you shouldn't be worried about not knowing everything in the first place.

Think of it this way. When someone you know dies, the world goes on without them, but the world has already been affected by them, and so their life is not meaningless. It happened and it left its mark in the universe. Same with you. When you die, everyone who knows you will already have been affected by you, and so your 'spirit' lives on through them. Same thing with the human race. If we went extinct tomorrow, say by a meteor or something, we have already made an effect on the universe. We'll leave behind our buildings, art, etc. Even our radio waves will still be travelling through space. The Voyager spacecraft will be floating in the galaxy for millenia to come. We have already left an indelible print on the universe, and each day we live, we continue to leave our imprint.

Because of wonder. Wonder is an interesting word. First, it means our sense of wonder. When we look at the stars and the atoms and all the rest of the universe, we have a profound sense of wonder. And that causes us to ask questions about the universe, to wonder about it. The questions in your post are a perfect example. We like to feel wonder and we like to wonder about things. And thirdly, with the knowledge we gain from asking questions and seeking answers, we can create great wonders. Whether it be art and literature or science and technology, our wonder inspires us to create more wonders.

I wonder if maybe there might be other intelligent life somewhere out in the universe for us to meet. I wonder how we can tackle the problem of the environment here on Earth. I wonder what the future will be like. I want to create a better, more wonderful future than the one we seem to be heading towards.

So, it's all about wonder. A lot of people think that you need to believe in God to have a sense of wonder. But this is false. Every human in existence has a sense of wonder, regardless of what they believe. It's something we all have in common, and it is possible that one day this realization could unite us to create an incredibly wonderful future. Read some books by Carl Sagan. You'll get my drift.

Of course it makes a difference. How we behave has an impact on the universe. There's no denying that. Whether that behaviour leads to wonder or terror, is ultimately dependent on our choices.

How can evolution lose? It's not a contest. Evolution is something that happens. It doesn't win or lose, it just happens.

I think you mean that ultimately we will cease to function, when the universe winds down and 'dies'. But we only know about this little tiny portion of the universe, and of that, we still know very little. The Unknown is still a huge thing. There is much more to learn and wonder about. Every new discovery we make teaches us something new and leads to even more amazing questions. How can we say for sure how life in the universe will ultimately end? Maybe there are multiple universes and we can somehow find a way to explore those as well. Maybe there's a way to somehow extend the life of our universe. Who knows? I certainly don't. But I do wonder about it. I'm not going to give up just because I don't know the answer! Wonder pushes me on. And thankfully, I don't need to believe in a god to wonder and feel a sense of wonder. In fact, that is a major reason why I *don't* believe in a god. Gods tend to kill wonder. They say, "Don't ask too many questions! There are some things you're not meant to know!" And I ask "Why?" and there are no good answers. "If you question me, I'll send you to a fiery hell." But then I ask "Why should I believe some character written in a book?" And the people who wrote the book don't have any good answers. If there's a real god, let him show himself to me. Until then, I'm going to explore this universe, the one universe I *do* know exists, not worry about some unsubstantiated threats from a book about some other imaginary universe of heaven and hell.

No, it's a choice. Ethics are easy to figure out when you simply look at the real world. What works and what doesn't? We have society and laws and philosophies and all sorts of things. Some work better than others. Let's take the best and leave the rest. We can create a better world that way. But if we get stuck in the past, sticking to old paradigms that don't work anymore, then we will be stuck with ethics that don't work.

See, that's why you have to develop critical thinking skills. The Matrix is fiction just like the Bible. Not everything it says in it is true. Take the best and leave the rest. What works and what doesn't? That's called pragmatism, and it's an unbeatable philosophy. How do I know it's unbeatable? Well, have you got any better ideas? If so, I'll take them, as they are supported by pragmatism. If not, then I'll leave them. Either way, I end up with the best ideas and leave the worse ideas behind, and that's just what pragmatism is. Either way I start with pragmatism and end with pragmatism. You can't do better than the best ideas. Thus, pragmatism is unbeatable.

Guess what?  We have to find our own meaning in this existence.  I admit it has sometimes been very hard for me, but when it comes right down to it, I am as god as it gets.   If I don't assign meaning to my life, no one will.

So? Life never claimed to be fair. Consider you're lucky that you have consciousness in the first place.  In the lottery of existence you won (millions of sperm, chance of miscarriage, right place-right time, etc...)

But, no, that's not enough for you. It must MEAN something!  Suck it up and be a Man.

Know this:  one day you won't exist.

I totally agree that the notion of universal doom is so far removed from our everyday existence that it is hard to see its relevance. However, I would say that it is not rational to discount it just for that reason.

I know it's a nihilistic view but that's how I see it at present. Unless there is something that trumps universal doom, then the doom wins. My purpose in making the original post was simply to get another viewpoint on it. I am not looking to defend my views or attack yours.

Okay, but there's been a lot of 'So what?' in the responses to my mail. Well, by my own argument, it doesn't matter what any of us think. Which makes me wonder why the atheist response is so strong. Why do you feel the need to wake anyone from their delusions?

I think it is remarkable that the human species actually does need purpose to exist. The replies to my post suggest that strongly. It seems that the atheist simply objects to thinking that there is anything greater/better/higher than anything he/she can come up with him/herself. But that doesn't change the fact that one still needs the purpose. Purpose drives everything that we do (no dumb remarks about breathing or other bodily functions, please). Why do we go to work? Why do we engage in these discussions? There is purpose behind it all.

My point is simply that this purpose is not enough to overcome the (albeit ultra-distant) fact that there is no purpose. So by that reasoning, it is somewhat delusional to have purpose.

As to the million-dollar-question. First off, I'd like to try that: do you happen to have a million dollars spare? =) Of course, I'd find ways to use it (because I have purpose), but yes, in the long run, it really makes no difference if I had it or not, or if I used it "wisely" or not.

Oh don't get me wrong. I don't discount the possibility of doom. I just don't think it's a done deal. The future is up for us to determine. It may be a 'heaven' it may be a 'hell'. But we'll never know if we give up now without trying.

Have you ever considered that your belief in an afterlife might be colouring your vision in this way? Believing that you can escape this world and be transported to an eternal heaven without regard to what happens in *this* world will cause you to put more importance on heaven than on this world. After all, the Bible says this world will be destroyed in the end days. What's the point of saving the environment? What's the point of planning for the future of this Earth and this universe if God's going to toss it all in the trash anyway? You see, I can only be *certain* that I have this life and this universe to live it in. I can't be certain of heaven or hell or any other afterlife. That makes this life much more important to me. I don't want to waste it because it's probably the only one I'm going to get. This life and this world is very valuable to me. I want to make it the best I can humanly make it. That is why I reject nihilism. I'm a pragmatist and a wonderist. I know I can explore this universe, and I choose to do so, to experience and create as much wonder as I can.

You don't *know* that. Nobody could possibly know that. Are you god? Do you know how the universe will end? No, you don't. We can only speculate based on our best understanding and go forward with confidence that we will make as much of an effort we can to ensure the best possible future.

You're under no obligation to defend your viewpoint from us. But consider this. Can you defend it for yourself? Can you ask yourself if you have done everything humanly possible to choose the best ideas and leave the rest? Have you explored all the options? Or maybe you've settled too quickly. Maybe you accepted the religion of your parents or community and haven't really checked out other options, like Buddhism or Hinduism or Taoism or rational atheism or pragmatism or wonderism or whatever.

Consider this: Out of all the religions/philosophies out there, how do you know yours is the right one? Surely you see that most of the people on this planet don't believe the same way you do. Some of them must be mistaken, right? Perhaps they've been deceived. But they don't think they've been deceived. Someone once said, it's easy to deceive people, and the easiest person to deceive is yourself. So don't defend your beliefs from us, but do everything you can to examine your own beliefs and test them for *yourself*, not for us. We would be happy to help you, if you choose to share with us. Or not. It's up to you.

Because the future is not written yet. We want the best possible future we can humanly achieve. We see how things are going now, and we are worried. We don't think it's going in a healthy direction. We want to do what we can to choose a better future.

Specifically, think about this. There is something all people share in common. Everyone you've ever known, everyone who has ever lived, has lived on this planet. It's the only one we've got for the forseeable future. If we screw up this planet enough, we could literally wipe ourselves out. And as technology gets more and more powerful, it's not just atom bombs anymore. It's germ warfare with genetic engineering. It's global warming and climate change. In the future it may be nanotech warfare. Technology is increasing at an exponential rate. But people don't seem to be getting much smarter and more responsible. That is the big danger. Some idiot releases his doomsday device to bring on the Rapture and we all pay the consequences.

Even if it's not so drastic as that, there are still important problems that religion and dogma interfere with, like medical advances, pointless warfare and genocides, etc.

Even things like interfering with freedom of speech and freedom of/from religion.

Really, there are a lot of things that suck in the world that we could improve if people would wake up to reality and stop neglecting this planet that we all share together. Theists and dogmatists affect us. We want it to stop and to build a better future. Simple as that.

The real problem is when people pretend to know things that they don't really know, and then proceed to act irresponsibly based on that false belief. For example, you say there is purpose behind it all. Presumably you mean that there is *one* universal purpose behind it all. I've already shown you that such beliefs colour one's view of the world. It gets even worse when people start to claim that they *know* what that alleged purpose is.

Yes, humans need purpose. And we choose our own purposes already. Why do you need some additional *absolute* purpose? Do you fear not knowing? Don't approach the unknown with fear. Approach it with wonder. I don't know what the purpose is. I may wonder about it, though, and may seek to find out. All admirable things to do. But I don't pretend to know what is unknown, because to do so would be to deceive myself.

No, again, you are making assumptions about things you don't really know. This is not a rational argument.

If I had a million dollars, it would certainly make a difference to me. And it would also make a difference to all the people I affect when I spend the money. It would have an impact on my future and the future of many others. And how I choose to spend it could make that future better or worse, depending on the quality of my judgment. To say it would make no difference is just a nihilistic cop-out based on fear of the unknown. I choose wonder over fear.

Because I, and my children and all those I care about, have to live in this world with those delusional believers whose belief I find  to be inherently dangerous.

Don't start making incorrect interpretations of what you think atheists object to.  Its really irritating. The reason atheists are atheists is because we don't have a god belief.  Whether or not there is purpose you consider important, making up something  to believe in, in order to fulfill the role of purpose giver, is delusional.

I've said there is purpose, but purpose is subjective. There is objective purpose in many things that go towards survival, the purpose being to survive and experience as long as possible .

There is no requirement that there needs to be a purpose for purpose in order for there to be purpose. You are arbitrarily requiring that. With your arbitrary requirements there would need to be an infinite regress of purposes in order for purpose to exist unless you are going to make some first purpose argument (which may likely be coming from Craig or Plantinga any day now.) Surely you see how ridiculous this is.

What seems delusional to me is to state purpose can't exist unless you are eternal, or there is an infinite regress of purposes, which is basically the claim you are making.

Whether or not it makes a difference "in the long run" is irrelevant. You obviously see the point of the analogy. If you have a purpose for the money in the present that is purpose. There is no requirement that such a purpose needs to last forever or be supported by other purposes, especially not past the point of your existing.

I think the nihilism viewpoint can have some positive influence. I have heard a few theists say that the book of revelations, for example, is a warning to mankind and not necessarily a look of what's to come. However, the problem with nihilism is that it most likely leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom.

Mankind as a whole seems  obsessed with its own demise. A common thread of many religions has always been the fall of mankind. Today we have Peak Oil and Global Warming as modern examples of nihilism, but the Mayans and Babylonians seemed to be obsessed with these types of destruction prophecy too. It's as old as recorded history that we see ourselves as a plague in some ways.

If it doesn't matter what any of us think then why worry about an atheist's strong response? As far as the second question, 9/11 is a good example for a reason to break these delusions.

I don't think you need a purpose to exist, a purpose helps you live and there is a big difference between mere existence and living.

Without some supreme being making me aware of my higher purpose I have to default to come up with my own. If my higher purpose involves serving and worshipping a superior being then it sounds like it needs us more than we it. Again it is helpful to define exactly what god is and what its purpose for us is.

Maybe we are in The Matrix and that's what we are supposed to do.

Is this for real? Inside joke? What's your point?

The fundamental problem with the idea of ultimate purpose is that no one can know what this ultimate purpose is, and so no one can know if they are fulfilling it or not. Anyone who claims to know what the purpose is, or claims to know that they are fulfilling it, is frankly lying and/or deceiving themselves. Such hubris and arrogance leads to great harm to everyone.

So, DadaMungo, what is this ultimate purpose you think exists and how do you know what it is?

And how do you know that? I'm told that no-one can know for certain what the purpose is (if such exists).

So....Kill 'em with Kindness, wasn't it?

Where do you draw these conclusions? Where have I evinced even the least degree of discomfort? I would say your tones betray your discomfort. I would suspect that you hold the so-called deluded in contempt for their views. If so, I would think this particular forum is not for you. At least, please try to lose the attitude before commenting further: I really don't want to waste my time with these diatribes.

I understand that. Really - I get the concept. But do you not find it ironic that (at least in layman forums) evolution is almost invariably talked about in terms of purpose? For example, one would typically read/hear that giraffes evolved long necks to reach the leaves at the top of the trees, thus giving them an advantage over species that couldn't reach them. It's conveyed as if they made a conscious choice to grow their necks longer. I find the pattern most distasteful, but it does back up my point (not in my original posting) that mankind needs purpose, even to the point of talking about a totally purposeless process in that manner. Profound!

What's so delusional about this? We all operate on this principle. For example, why does one attend a job interview? One does not know if one will get the position, but one believes there's a chance of success, so it's worth trying. This is the essence of faith. I would suspect the use of this term will bother some of you, but we all live by faith. It's just a question of what we have faith in. It is said that Thomas Edison made 1000 attempts at making the light-bulb before hitting on the right solution. Would you say he was deluded?

So it's really a question of probabilities. Are the odds good enough that it's worth believing? Personally, I think it's worth it, but I'll leave my reasons for that for another day.

It is totally disingenuous to claim that we are self-righteous right after you make a claim without backing it up. You claim you are using us to refine your arguments, and yet you do not return the favour by pointing out these 'gaping holes' for us to learn from. Where are these holes you speak of?

Strictly speaking, this site is not about theism per se. It is about rationality. There are irrational atheists as well. But in terms of worldwide irrationality, theism definitely tops the list. That's why it's our primary (but not only) focus.

  well DadaMungo , I was agreeing that the "god definitions" are so varied. The only type of definition that works for me is as to say god is what ALL exists. All = ONE.

The hard details of god are best found in the science books. Philosophy is helpful too. Religious and Bible books are mostly emotional pleading. 

Language is messy ..... Ask a kid if they believe in god ..... a yes or no , says almost nothing  ..... 

Sounds very much like karma to me.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you from whence I draw meaning.

Humanity.

I look around me, and I see the beauty of vileness and joy and distress of other people. Now, I myself am in the fortunate position of being well-fed, well-employed in a job I enjoy that pays well, married to an amazing woman I've been with for sixteen years, and pretty much just happy with life. So I ask myself, what keeps some other people from enjoying life as much as I?

That helps drive me. That helps determine my actions, my morals.

See, I believe we are all in this together. I also believe that we do things that are worth preserving, and enjoying-- paintings, and opera, and music, and sex, and good books, and rousing speeches, and good food, and the love we feel for various people. I know I am never as happy as when I feel that good warm emotion of love. And I like to have that emotion.

I know that sounds trite, but it's true.

Anyway, the whole "continuation of the species" argument is actually a pretty good one. Most species that have ever existed died out long ago. Most of the species of mammals and birds on earth today will be extinct in a few tens of thousands of years. So, chances are, our species won't have to worry about the heat-death of the universe, because we'll be gone.

That thought makes me sad. The thought that Renoir will be forgotten, that Gaiman will no longer be read, the thought that the future won't have their equivalent of Gus or Eels or Bach or the Gourds or Husker Du-- that distinct probability makes me infinitely sad.

My purpose is simple: to help us survive long enough to get into space. Once we settle other planets, even those in our solar system, we stand a much better chance of survival. The thought that many of those people to come later will see things of which I can only dream-- that makes me infinitely happy.

This, to me, is a much better purpose than trying to make a potential God happy. If I can't make Him happy simply by pursuing my own purpose, then [edited for politeness].

Of course, you have to find your own idea of what makes a noble purpose. That's just one more burden of being on our own in the universe.

It isn't whether or not your purpose is founded in science. It's that it's founded in reality, or at least in rationality. Some people feel their purpose in life is to turn international transport into human-guided missiles. Others feel it is their purpose to shoot abortion doctors. Still others think it is their calling to drag a homosexual behind a pickup truck at high speeds until there's nothing left but a few hamburger-encased bones. Still others believe it is up to them to convince a bunch of otherwise-intelligent adults to commit suicide so they can all hitch a ride in a passing UFO.

There are rational purposes, and there are... less rational purposes. At some point, a line must be drawn between what makes an acceptable purpose, and what makes a senseless or even dangerous purpose. For many of us who attempt to follow a rational life, rationalism is the defining line.

As far as evolution, and its purpose: evolution has no destination. It has no purpose, as it is merely a process. However, there is a role for information (as encoded in the genotypes and selected for by the phenotypes). That role is survival through propagation. This isn't a purpose, per se, but it does give each individual a purpose, which is survival of the genotypes of the species.

As I'm a packrat, I believe we should help as many different species survive as possible, and to make that survival pleasant for as many as possible. Even for us humans.

Has He revealed it to you?

That's not so tricky. If the only thing that keeps you from hurting people is a supposed punishment to come at a later date, then your only purpose is to keep from being punished. This is hardly a noble purpose.

This is interesting. Pretty much every single Christian I know feels they are the True Christian, and others are not. Why is that?

As far as the "meaninglessness of life," why do you suppose life is meaningless? Just because it will all come crashing down some day?

I have a job. It is a good job. I enjoy it. I write software that moves data over a satellite. I feel I am doing good, because this helps people communicate in parts of the world without infrastructure. It's a satisfying job. I will not have it forever, though. At some point, I'll either get another job, or I'll retire, or something similar.

Why do I keep this job if it won't mean anything in the long run?

Because it isn't meaningless. It has the meaning I bring to it, and that meaning doesn't take courage. It merely takes satisfaction that I am doing good. That when I die, I will have left the world a better place, on the whole. I don't do this just for me. I do it for my daughter, and my neices and nephews, and for the sons and daughters of the people in the parts of the world served by the satellite for which I write code.

I do this because I feel sure we can be greater than we are today.

Do not suppose that you have found the Answer. You may have found an answer that satisfies your needs, but to imagine it is a universal Answer is the biggest delusion of all. If you draw satisfaction from your purpose, and your purpose is not evil (evil: hurting someone else for your own gain), then go for it. Just don't assume that your purpose will suit anyone else at all.

I certainly don't pretend my purpose will suit you. It's tailored for my own life, and though it's a suit that might fit others, it will never look as good on them as it does on me. Partly because I'm so amazingly handsome; but also because it's my purpose.

   well DadaMungo. the simple Jesus wisdom I find xlint. In fact I AM an atheist for Jesus/buddha philosophy. Jesus was an atheist the way it reads for me. Jesus rocks the bible sucks .....  Jesus said I / we / ALL is god .... the bible does more to hide this message than reveal it. The gnostic books are telling ..... Lots of atheists are Jesus and Buddha fans. 

Religion means dogma to me. Christians are Paulines, to generalize. Jesus best philosophy would not approve of xain dogma .....