What Does Sugar Have To Do With Murder?!

Hambydammit's picture

This essay serves two purposes. It is listed as a stand alone essay in my section because it is a complete topic in itself. It should also be read in conjunction with the series, On Myth, Sexuality, and Culture. If you haven't read the series yet, you should read this after What's So Great About Sex? . This essay is crucial to the next follow up essay in my sex series, when we talk about sexual morality in the framework of relative ethics.

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The “Should Trap” and How we Ought to Behave

I've frequently mentioned the trap hidden in the word, “should.” It's time now for us to look at exactly what the word means, what it doesn't mean, and how a good understanding of these things will allow us to understand how humans form concepts of morality. We'll soon see that everything from what we should eat for dinner to who we should vote for in the upcoming election to whether or not we should have children or adopt – all of these questions become much easier to answer when we realize exactly what we're asking.

Like so many words in the English language, “should” has multiple meanings. “Should I decide to get married, I will do so in a courtroom, not a church,” is one possible usage. This is a relatively uncommon usage. It essentially means, “If I decide to get married.” Another usage involves probability. “The Patriots should win the Superbowl next year.” We're saying that we believe the Patriots are more than 50/50 favorites to win the Superbowl. We can also use it as a way to blunt or soften an otherwise harsh statement, as in “I should think that it's a bad idea to drive in your condition.”

All of these usages are irrelevant to the topic at hand. We are going to be using the word as expressing a sense of obligation or necessity: “You should go to the bathroom before we leave the house.” If you think about this statement for a moment, you realize an essential part of any sentence using the word with this meaning. There is an unspoken, yet implicitly understood, phrase at the end of it: “You should go to the bathroom before we leave the house IF you don't want us to have to stop at a gas station on the way.” Of course, there may be other equally valid phrases – “IF we're going to make it on time,” for instance. Stopping at a gas station takes longer than walking to the bathroom now, and we're in a rush.

Any statement about what we should do is really an IF-THEN statement, or a contingency. In other words, a certain outcome is contingent upon us doing a certain thing. “You should temper the milk before adding it to your hot pan, IF you don't want the sauce to curdle.” There are different ways of expressing contingency. The word must is stronger than should. “You must keep your speed under sixty-five miles per hour if you are to obey the law.” There is no wiggle room in this statement. If we exceed sixty-five, we will be breaking the law, regardless of whether or not we are caught. On the other hand, we should drive under seventy if we don't want to run an excessive risk of being pulled over in a sixty-five zone. We know that the chances of being pulled over are very slim if we maintain a speed of five miles per hour over, but it's not certain.

This all seems very simple, but we are talking about relatively uncontroversial topics. Let's talk now about something from the opposite end of the spectrum. Should abortion be legal? If you are like the majority of people, you have a strong opinion on this question, but let's make sure that our opinion is based on an accurate and well constructed contingency. We need to be able to construct a sentence in the following form: “Abortion should be legal if X is to occur.” The letter “X” represents some outcome on which the legality of abortion is contingent. Perhaps we can make a statement with more certainty by saying that abortion must be legal. Let's look at some possible sentences.

Many abortion rights activists say that abortion should be legal because women have the right to make their own choices about their bodies. To rephrase it as a contingency, we will say that IF women are to have reproductive control over their own bodies, THEN abortion should be legal. Others use a different approach. IF we are to reduce the number of deformed, chemically addicted, unwanted, or severely retarded babies, THEN abortion should be legal. There are many more arguments, and I'm sure that astute readers have already begun to dissect and critique the ones I've made based on their own opinions. I do not intend to answer this question, so forgive me for not listing every possible contingency statement.

What about abortion opponents? Probably the most common statement has to do with the sanctity of human life. IF we are to respect the rights of the unborn, THEN abortion should be illegal. IF a fetus is a human, THEN it should have all the rights of a human. Again, depending on your own view, you've probably raised your eyebrow at something inherent in these statements. When we talk about critical thinking, debate, and evidence, we'll dig deeper into this kind of complicated question, but for now, I want you to see that regardless of the peripheral issues, each side of the abortion debate is creating their own contingency statement, and it's based on what they believe to be a good outcome. For abortion rights advocates, they envision a society where individual adults have as much freedom of choice as possible. For opponents, society would give equal legal rights to the unborn and the born, restricting freedom of choice to gain legal recognition of the sanctity of human life.


A Taste for Something Sweet

Now that we've looked at two very opposite questions, let's try to establish how we can start from scratch, with nothing but our knowledge of human nature, and develop a working model of what we should or should not do. We'll use something that's pretty much universal, and also very well understood – the sweet tooth.

Why is a taste for sweet food pretty much universal to humans? Across all cultures, humans crave sugar in some way or another. Not only that, but our taste develops well before we can learn it culturally. It is clearly a biological constant among humans, but why is this? To answer this question, we must remember that human nature is nothing more than a reflection of the evolutionary forces that created us. If we crave sweets, then there's a good evolutionary reason for it. Also, we must remember that the agricultural revolution happened so recently in our evolutionary past that we are, for all intents and purposes, post-industrial humans with pre-agricultural brains. We have the same instincts and emotions as we did forty or fifty thousand years ago when we were hunting and gathering in small tribal groups of twenty to perhaps two hundred.

As we look across the animal kingdom, we realize that natural selection has 'learned' to encourage beneficial behavior. In even the most unintelligent species, we recognize something in common with humans. That is, the experience of both pain and pleasure. Things that are painful are generally avoided, and things that are pleasurable are generally sought out. Pain and pleasure are nature's way of getting us to do what is best for us while avoiding that which is harmful. It's obviously not a perfect system, but we must remember that natural selection is not concerned with the individual. It is diversity which makes a species adaptable and likely to survive, but diversity is a double edged sword. By creating lots of highly varied individuals, natural selection has made things very bad for some and very good for others. Nature is an amazingly complex system, and the 'rules' of pain and pleasure are general guidelines that tend to benefit the entire species – not each individual. We must always remember this humbling truth. Natural selection could care less about you or me. We are both little more than genetic dice rolls in a much larger game.

Now, with a little educated guesswork, we can come up with the correct answer to the sugar question, an answer which science has verified. In nature, things that taste sweet are ripe. More than that, very few naturally poisonous substances are sweet. So, as man was evolving, the members of the species that ate more ripe fruit and avoided poisons became the best nourished, and consequently, the most reproductively successful. Within perhaps ten or twenty thousand generations, those humans who tended to eat poisonous food died out, leaving virtually all of humanity in possession of a sweet tooth. The species had evolved an adaptive trait that made it more successful.

Pre-agricultural man had two principle pursuits in life. He wanted to avoid starvation, and he wanted to reproduce. The former was usually critical to the latter, so food gathering was probably the most common activity for our ancestors. Most fruits that our ancestors would have eaten were under 10% sugar. Not only that, fruits are almost all more than 80% water, and contain fiber and important nutrients. If you think for a moment about the natural growing season of most fruits, you will realize that the average human would have had very few opportunities to get fruit, and consequently, sugar. It would have been terribly important to get the accompanying nutrients whenever possible. Sugar was an indicator of foods that were high in nutrients. Not surprisingly, our sweet tooth is one of our strongest taste cravings.

As a result of this adaptation, we in the post-industrial world crave sweets, and enjoy them when we get them. There's a big difference, though. Post-industrial man has something that pre-agricultural man did not – processed sugar. We have learned to farm beets and sugar cane, and aided by advanced tools, to extract the pure sugar. We can use it to flavor everything from barbecue sauce to tiramisu to cough syrup to coffee. We can get sugar year round.

There's another adaptation we must consider. Our ancestors had to catch pretty much any protein they were going to consume. Protein came primarily from animals, and most of the animals we lived with were faster than us. To put it simply, it cost us a lot of calories to catch and kill our dinner. In addition, we were very seldom certain that we would find a meal tomorrow, or the day after. Food for us, like every other creature, was a hit and miss proposition. To that end, we developed a propensity for gorging. If there was a dead antelope by the fire, we consumed not just enough to sate our hunger, but as much as we possibly could, for that stored fat energy might well be the difference between a successful hunt in a week. It could literally be the difference between life and death.

By now, you've probably anticipated where I'm going with this. Very few humans expend energy in catching their food anymore. Not only that, but we get to eat our fill every day, and we add pure sugar to a large percentage of our food items. Our natural desire to gorge ourselves only compounds the problem.

According to the 2008 stat sheet from the American Heart Association, more than 9 million children under 19 years old are overweight. Nearly 14 percent of preschool children are overweight. Overweight adolescents have a 70 percent chance of remaining overweight as adults. Obesity increases as we reach adulthood. Among women between 30 and 40 years old, 34 percent are overweight. The link between obesity and myriad health problems is so well documented as to be incontrovertible.

The problem isn't just sugar. We also crave fat, for obvious reasons. Fat is one of the best ways to store energy in the body. Stored energy was crucial to our ancestors, but it is literally death to us today. Salt was an extremely precious commodity well into the modern human era. Today, it is available for a nickel a box at the supermarket, and is added to virtually everything we cook. Our ancient instincts have turned on us, and we are eating ourselves to death. Potato chips, candy, Big Macs, cheesecake, and All-You-Can-Eat Buffets are slowly and consistently killing us.

How does this relate back to our discussion of the word should? Very clearly, as it turns out. Remember, in order to make a statement about what we should do, we must provide an outcome. The chain is quite clear. Salt, sugar, and fat are clearly important to the human diet, but with science, we have identified clear dangers to our health that result from consuming too much of any of them. We can say with scientific certainty that IF we wish to increase our chance of being healthy and living for a long time, we SHOULD take special care to monitor our intake of calories, sugar, salt, and fat.

How much should we monitor our diets? Again, the answer depends on our goals. If we wish to give ourselves the maximum chance of a very long life, we will have a lot of work ahead of us, because very few foods today are designed with that goal in mind. We must balance our desire for a long and healthy life with the time constraints of our work and leisure time, as well as our income (eating a maximally healthy diet is much more expensive!) and ultimately, the amount of pleasure we are willing to sacrifice today for the goal of living a long life.

Here, we get a sneak peek at the conclusion of this line of inquiry. If we see that, say, 90% of the food industry produces food that is less than optimally healthy, should we all become full time activists, trying to change the way food is produced worldwide? Optimal food production is clearly a reasonable goal, if we believe healthy eating is the most important thing to aim towards. If we think about this for a second, though, we will realize that it's absurd to suggest that everyone in the world do such a thing. Clearly, the conception of absolute normatives (“should” statements) is on shaky ground. If everyone works toward food production, where will everyone live? Who will run the police departments? Who will study energy sources for the future? There are many, many competing goals in the world, all of them with their own merits.

But Isn't There More To It?

Sugar craving is something virtually all humans do. It's part of our nature. As such, it's a great example for illustrating several common misunderstandings of what morality is. The first, and the most obvious, is the appeal to nature. As we have clearly demonstrated, all of our natural inclinations are not inherently good for us. Remember, our sweet tooth is something that benefited our species at a time when we desperately needed it. Today, indiscriminate indulgence of that which feels natural is the equivalent of signing our own death warrant, at least when it comes to food.

We can also see the beginnings of another fallacy, the false dichotomy. Many moralists will argue that a certain moral issue is black or white, wrong or right. By looking at the natural, healthy consumption of fat, sugar, and salt, and comparing it with unmoderated consumption of all three, we can see that there are an almost unlimited number of positions along the middle ground. If it can be scientifically demonstrated (and it can) that a diet of say, five percent excess fat, sugar, and salt will have a minimal effect on our health, particularly if we counteract the effect to some degree with exercise, how can we say that based solely on health and longevity, it's wrong to consume such a diet?

Here, we see another error lurking just around the corner. Is our diet truly based solely on our own health? If we eat our fill, will someone else starve? Is it cruel to eat foix gras? If raising enough of a certain crop to sate our national appetite causes us to harm the environment, is that morally wrong? Is it actually justifiable to say that everyone in the world should always eat as healthy as possible? If someone is dying of cancer, for instance, should they still adhere to eating practices that will never be a benefit to them? These are all questions that need answers, and in each case, we can use science and a proper understanding of the word “should” to find answers.

In less enlightened times, philosophers decided that animals were simply automatons, put on earth to perfectly mimic life, which only human beings had, because only humans had souls. As a result of this scientific inaccuracy, it was considered acceptable to nail a living dog to a plank by its feet and cut it open while it was still alive to see how it worked. Today, through the critical lens of science, we know that dogs do indeed feel pain. We have come to the conclusion that such research is morally wrong. At the risk of overgeneralizing, I will hazard a guess that virtually every sane person on the planet would agree that nailing dogs to planks and cutting them open while alive is wrong.

Why is this, though? If we can find an evolutionary explanation for our sweet tooth, and find a middle ground, can we also examine the mutilation of living animals? Why do humans cringe at the sight of other humans in pain? Why would we do the same for dogs, when they are not members of our own species? Why can some people wring the neck of a chicken, cook it, and eat it for dinner, while other people become sick to their stomach at the sight of a steak?

Our ability to recognize pain in others, and our aversion to seeing it, is rooted in our social nature. Remember that our ancestors lived in small tribal groups, and were probably all closely related. They also depended upon each other for their survival. If the group weakened, the chance of each individual to survive lessened. Those of our ancestors who developed a negative response to pain in their kin were more likely to try to help prevent or alleviate this pain. When everyone in the tribe had this tendency, a sort of mutual protection pact resulted, even though it would be millenia before such a thing would ever be written down.

Why, then, do we fight wars? Why do soldiers experience excitement, jubilation, and even sexual pleasure when they take the life of an enemy soldier, or worse, an enemy civilian? Again, the answer lies in our genes. To the eyes of natural selection, the tribe is almost like an organism itself. Each member, like an individual cell in a large organism, contributes to the survival of the whole. As we've seen previously, natural selection is driven by several competitive forces – interspecies, intraspecies, parasitic, and environmental. The superorganism, that is, the tribe, is at a state of relative equilibrium, competing within itself for mating, power, and social status, but the ultimate goal is the survival of the tribe. With limited resources in any patch of land, the encroachment of another tribe meant the threat of death by starvation. Those of our ancestors who were instinctively driven to drive off or kill members of other tribes were able to protect their own resources, ensuring survival of the tribe.

Remember that pleasure is nature's way of encouraging a behavior, and pain is its way of discouraging it. Also remember that our brains are the same today as they were in the days when a small grove of fruit trees might be the difference between survival and starvation. Cooperative pacts and international treaties were simply not possible because there were neither the resources, the language, or the advanced abstract thought necessary to conceptualize such things. Like all the other animals who lived in small social groups, the choice was clear. Either drive the competitors away, kill them, or die.

Ancient humans, then, developed what seems to us to be a contradictory nature. They were appalled at pain experienced by their 'fellow man,' and delighted with pain inflicted on 'the enemy.' Once we understand that these feelings are normal, natural, and instinctive, we can begin to look at the question of murder in the same way that we approached the question of sugar intake. We can recognize that in a post-industrial world, our instinctive desires are not necessarily to our advantage. We can look at the real, scientific picture of what the world is, and make decisions about what our laws should be, and what our own actions should be, based on our goals. In other words, we can say, IF we want a society that accomplishes X, then we SHOULD or MUST have Y laws about killing other human beings.

But what about animals? Why do we feel empathy and sorrow for animals when they are clearly not part of our tribe? The answers to this would take a great deal of space to adequately explain, but if you think about a few of our instinctive traits, you can probably understand at least some of the reasons. Humans have instinctive nurturing tendencies. All humans, and especially women, and even more so, mothers, naturally feel nurturing instincts towards our babies. This isn't a uniquely human trait, of course. All animals that nurture their young feel some degree of the same thing. In nature, something that works for one species often works for another species. Human babies have fat cheeks, big eyes, and big heads. These traits are common in many baby animals, not just humans. In fact, many adult animals appear to humans to have baby like qualities.

Additionally, humans do not experience feelings of animosity towards things that are not a threat. Notice that the things we find most cute in the animal kingdom are those that very seldom kill humans – baby seals, for instance. Where we see things that resemble humans, and we perceive no threat, our other instinct, nurture, can kick in. This tendency varies widely among individuals, which explains why humans have invented both cock fighting and PETA.

Next, consider that animals benefit from not being killed by humans. We cannot overstate the complexity of natural selection. Notice that humans have driven whales to the brink of extinction, and we don't find them particularly adorable. Dogs and cats, on the other hand, are nearly ubiquitous in our society, and we think they're very cute. Animals that are unlikely to inspire animosity or a killing instinct in other potential predators have a much greater survival capacity than those that do. Humans are part of the ecosystem, and as such, we've been at least a partial cause of selective pressure on other species for our entire history!

Finally, think about fishermen. Recreational fishermen put sharp hooks through the mouths of fish, and then let them freeze to death in a cooler, all with a calm, removed demeanor, and almost nobody on the planet protests. The observation that humans feel empathy towards animals is highly subject to bias. We feel empathy for some animals, and indiscriminately kill others. Our moral outrage varies tremendously with regard to other life forms. We have no problem killing rats by the million, but killing a hamster from the pet store is considered immoral. Once again, the quest for an absolute answer to the question of morality looks to be on thin ice.


Ok, So What's The Right Answer?

We've talked about sugar, and it's fairly clear that there's no single right answer. We've talked about animals and witnessed our own bias when it comes to moral outrage. Nevertheless, murder is in a special category, right? It's human life we're talking about, after all. So, what is the correct moral law with regard to murder? Are we ready to say with certainty that we shouldn't kill at all, or that we should only kill for certain offenses, or that war is never the answer? Can we finally answer the question of what morality is, with only science as our guide?

If you are asking this question, then you are forgetting a couple of fundamental truths about natural selection. First, you're forgetting that diversity is the biggest strength of natural selection. Second, natural selection is not concerned with the individual. It is concerned with the species. If we're still expecting a single answer to a question of morality, we must be getting that expectation from somewhere, but it's not science. All of the evidence points to a dynamic and changing relationship between members of a species, between different species, and species and their environment. If anything is constant in nature, it is that nothing is constant. Many, if not most, highly socialized creatures are known to commit murder in some form or another, whether it's infanticide, inter-tribal warfare, or intraspecies competition over territory or mates.

If you find yourself insisting that there has to be an answer to the ultimate question of morality, where are you getting this idea? What scientific theory led you to believe such a thing exists? If you can't think of one, perhaps the idea came from elsewhere. Maybe it's the idea that humans are better than, or higher, than the animals. We've already seen that this is not so. We are very smart products of evolution, but we are products of evolution, and nothing more. Maybe it's the idea that we can rise above our nature and use our brains to end suffering for everybody. While this sounds noble, we must ask what the justification is for wanting this. Once we offer our justification, we must realize that someone else can offer an equally reasonable goal for humanity which does not include the eradication of all suffering or rising above killing. For instance, one might point out that without suffering and death, humans will literally multiply exponentially, and will probably destroy our habitat, and we may all die. Though we can't be one hundred percent certain of this, there are extraordinarily strong indications that this is true.

In good science, the researcher usually expects a certain answer from his experiments. This is because he's formed a hypothesis based on what he's observed. The experiment is a way of either verifying or falsifying his educated guess. The good scientist will recognize that both results are possible, and will be prepared to accept either. Though he may be disappointed with the findings, his ultimate goal is discovering the truth of reality, not ensuring the correctness of his own guess.

Likewise, when we approach the question of morality, we must be prepared for what science tells us. When we look at the life on earth, we see everywhere the undeniable proof that competition is what drives natural selection. We see that life and death are part of reality, and that there is no such thing as an eternal environment. Things change for individuals within a species, for the species itself, and for the competitors outside of the species. As much as we might want to believe in a reality where any taking of human life is morally wrong, we must, if we are to search for truth, realize that this does not, and cannot exist.

The first reason such a reality cannot exist is the very obvious fact that competition often involves directly conflicting goals, both of which have their own legitimate justification based on facts. If I am to protect my children, I must kill the man who intends to kill them. If I am to preserve the sanctity of every human life, I must hold my trigger finger, even though the man who is trying to kill my children can only be stopped if I shoot and kill him. But, if I do not kill him, my children will die, and my inaction will have caused death.

If someone objects that the man should not be trying to kill my children, he is falling prey to a fallacy. Science has shown us with empirical certainty that deviance is unavoidable within society. All conventions will be broken by at least some of the members of a society. If you think about it, this is obvious, for if there was no deviation, there would be no rule. Somewhere in the world, someone will try to kill another man's children, and the man will have to make a choice as to who will die.

Death is inevitable. Competition is instinctive and unavoidable. Goals are necessarily different for individuals, and groups of people, whether families or tribes or countries or global alliances, will always seek to ensure their own survival. We can imagine a world where we completely overcome our own instincts, but such is the stuff of science fiction and religion, not reality. Our instincts are what make us human, and our instincts drive us inevitably to conflict, which often results in death.


So Does This Mean I Can Just Kill You?

No. If you believe this, then you have ignored the most crucial message that science has to teach us about morality. This doesn't take any philosophy to answer. It only takes historical observation. In all of recorded history across all cultures, there has never, ever been a time when humans arbitrarily killed other humans. Never. In all of the collected archaeological data in the world, there is no compelling case for humans ever arbitrarily killing other humans. As long as humans have had societies, they have had agreements, whether unspoken, verbal, or written into law, about when killing is acceptable, and when it is not. These agreements are part of the balance of natural selection. If intraspecies competition leads to extinction, the species will die. On any legitimate computer simulation, a population which arbitrarily kills its own kind will become extinct. Science gives us the answer, as clear as day. If humans had ever developed the tendency to kill arbitrarily, we would not be here to ask the question of why we do not.

More compelling still, in all of nature, there is no evidence of any intelligent creature that arbitrarily kills its own kind. Across all intelligent species, where there is intraspecies killing, there is always a reason for the killing. Period. Nature is yelling at us. It is screaming to us. It is telling us in the most certain terms that we could ever see that there is something inherent in us which prevents us from crossing certain boundaries. In nature, we see the same thing, over and over. In bee hives, females who try to lay their own eggs are killed or banished by other workers loyal to the queen bee. This behavior is entirely instinctive, and is not driven by the intelligent desire to follow laws, or some higher mandate. It is simply the way that bees have survived, and it is the way we have survived since before we were intelligent enough to ask why we don't kill our own.

Among many ants, there are often coups, where a young female gathers enough followers to overthrow the queen and take her place. Again, this is entirely instinctive behavior, programmed through long eons of reproductive successes and failures. Yet, humans do the same things, over and over, through history, all the while thinking ourselves to be above the animals.

The answer to the question of morality is that there is no single, immutable answer, but there are the realities of nature. Like all social animals, we have individuals who try to further their own goals at the expense of other members of the group. Sometimes they succeed, and other times they fail. Depending on our own perspective, sometimes we approve of deviants, and sometimes we disapprove. We love Dirty Harry for killing the bad guys, and we despise Ted Bundy. This is instinctive, and is based on that apparent contradiction we saw earlier. Our ancestors survived by killing outsiders and protecting insiders. Ted Bundy killed insiders. Dirty Harry killed the enemy. Where things get trickier is when the enemy is not so clear cut. When American soldiers killed civilians in Vietnam, they were killing people who had the same desires, goals and instinctive drives as everyone else. To the Vietnamese families, the Americans were the enemy, and rightly so.

The goals of the war were based on a great many false beliefs. The North Vietnamese government believed that communism was a workable political system. Experience and science have taught us that this is false. Americans believed that stopping communists at all costs was a reasonable goal. Much of the American public believed that the war was started by the communists, when in fact, the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin was likely provoked by the Americans. Few Americans knew of the American and French governments' politically suspect motivations for being involved in the first place.

Could knowledge of reality have changed history? If the leaders of the communist regime knew for certain that communism would collapse under its own weight, would they have continued to infiltrate other countries? Would America have gone to war if it was universally known that there were nefarious reasons for doing so? It's impossible to answer these specific questions, but we can use the questions themselves as evidence of our incredibly dynamic sense of morality.

At this point, we can review history and see how science has improved the human condition, specifically with regard to morality. Once we learned that there are no such thing as witches, we recognized the inherent danger of allowing young girls to point out people at random and use that 'evidence' to justify killing those who were likely innocent of any wrongdoing. We know from history and from psychology that humans given unchecked power over others will abuse their power for their own gain, and so we create governments with checks and balances. We know that our instincts instill in us desires that often contradict our own best interests, so we learn to balance our instincts against our goals.

Finally, we know that the human condition is dependent on competition. From the level of our genes up to individuals, and ultimately to global alliances, competition is inherent in nature, and will never go away. We recognize that even though these questions of morality do not have universal answers, they most definitely have answers on a local level with regard to a specific goal. The more we acknowledge our instinctive desires, the more accurately we can judge whether or not they apply to a specific situation. If we are aware that our inherent desire is to kill all of our adversaries, it becomes easier to recognize that our desire to go to war with a rival country might be detrimental to everybody, and that there might be a middle ground, as there is with sugar consumption. By allowing science to document human nature in an unbiased manner, we can recognize the dangerous legacy of some of our instincts. Again, by using science, we can objectively evaluate which goals truly are better from whatever perspective we agree on. We can set our goal and then determine the best way to get there. It's not a perfect answer for those who still want to believe that utopia is possible, but it is the real answer.


 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Kevin R Brown's picture

Hamby, while I doubt my

Hamby, while I doubt my academic standing compared to yours, I challenge a few assertions presented here (directly or indirectly):

 - Where is there compelling evidence that the human brain hasn't evolved from our early stages as the rest of our bodies have?

 - Where is there compelling evidence that overpopulation is the more likely candidate for exterminating the human species when compared to warfare (particularly in an age of nuclear arsenals)?

 - Where is there compelling evidence that warfare and violence are the only significant contributing factors (or possibilities) for preventing overpopulation (particularly when compared to contraceptive / birth control / abortion technology)?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:- Where is there

Quote:
- Where is there compelling evidence that the human brain hasn't evolved from our early stages as the rest of our bodies have?

I have never claimed this.  To the contrary, I have asserted nothing but the fact that our brain has evolved simultaneously with the rest of our bodies.  This is essential to my presentation.  Have you read any of my other works?  To quote myself from this essay, "We are very smart products of evolution, but we are products of evolution, and nothing more."

Quote:
- Where is there compelling evidence that overpopulation is the more likely candidate for exterminating the human species when compared to warfare (particularly in an age of nuclear arsenals)?

I'm curious if you're talking about the same essay that I wrote.  I did not say that overpopulation is a more likely candidate for human extermination than warfare.  I simply offered it as an alternative viewpoint from which to consider the question of good and bad.  If you want, you can come up with a hundred other options.  It will only reinforce my point, which you seem to have missed completely.

Quote:
- Where is there compelling evidence that warfare and violence are the only significant contributing factors (or possibilities) for preventing overpopulation (particularly when compared to contraceptive / birth control / abortion technology)?

I did not say that warfare and violence are the only significant contributing factors for preventing overpopulation.

I'm going to wager a guess that you came into this essay with a preconceived notion of what I meant because your questions aren't indicative of a good understanding of what I've written. 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Hambydammit's picture

To be more concise, here are

To be more concise, here are my basic propositions:

* Human nature evolved because of evolution, and so our desires all have evolutionary explanations.

* Modern society is a very new development for humans.  We haven't had time to evolve past our hunter-gatherer brains.

* Many of our natural desires can have negative consequences in this new culture to which our brains have not adapted (sugar cravings leading to obesity and death, for instance.)

* Our protective instincts, as well as our enthusiasm for murder and war both evolved from the same thing -- survival of the group.

* Our current conceptions of murder are not set in stone, for we view insiders and outsiders differently.  We view some killers as heroes and some as villains, largely based on our caveman instincts.

* Murder, though inevitable, can be approached in the same way as sugar cravings.  If we understand what humans are, and why we are so, we can accurately examine our own motivations and weigh them against modern society, in the same way that we examine our sugar cravings.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Geezzz Hamby, Your essays

Geezzz Hamby, Your essays are "better" than the ones I read in the national magazines. Have you submitted any of your work ? Is a book coming ?

Dammit Hamby ...."my peoples" need this stuff .... so I send you by email, wish I had more influence dumb poor me. You get me burning good.

Yeah, a perfect "utopia" isn't possible, but we could sure do a hell of lot better than this current madness fueled by the greed sucking rich slowing progress .... sugar for everyone .... the media sucks, what else can I say??? .... I love you man, I AM so pissed ! ....

 

Kevin R Brown's picture

Quote:I have never claimed

Quote:
I have never claimed this.  To the contrary, I have asserted nothing but the fact that our brain has evolved simultaneously with the rest of our bodies.  This is essential to my presentation.  Have you read any of my other works?  To quote myself from this essay, "We are very smart products of evolution, but we are products of evolution, and nothing more."

You also assert that we are still driven by the same brain-directed chemical instincts that we were 'back in the caveman days'. I was asking for evidence of this.

Again, this perhaps stems from my layman knowledge of biology/genetics (I'm hardly the expert), but I'm under the impression that as our brain has evolved, so have our instincts.

Quote:
I'm curious if you're talking about the same essay that I wrote.  I did not say that overpopulation is a more likely candidate for human extermination than warfare.  I simply offered it as an alternative viewpoint from which to consider the question of good and bad.  If you want, you can come up with a hundred other options.  It will only reinforce my point, which you seem to have missed completely.

'For instance, one might point out that without suffering and death, humans will literally multiply exponentially, and will probably destroy our habitat, and we may all die. Though we can't be one hundred percent certain of this, there are extraordinarily strong indications that this is true.'

...This is my mistake. I get particularly defensive when 'war' gets brought up under any light that seems positive, and - of course - misconstrue meanings. When I read the above, what I read was:

'For instance, one might point out that without suffering and death war, humans will literally multiply exponentially, and will probably destroy our habitat, and we may all die. Though we can't be one hundred percent certain of this, there are extraordinarily strong indications that this is true.'

...Which is a different statement entirely.

Quote:
I did not say that warfare and violence are the only significant contributing factors for preventing overpopulation.

Nope, you didn't. I didn't bother reading all the words that were in front of me. I apologize.

Quote:
I'm going to wager a guess that you came into this essay with a preconceived notion of what I meant because your questions aren't indicative of a good understanding of what I've written.

Now, that I didn't do. I read the article because I thought the title was interesting. My preconceptions only occurred after I read the word 'war', and decided I didn't like the context.

Of course, that's not much better, but meh.

                                                                                    ^^Flawed human being^^

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

  Titians in debate , now

  Titians in debate , now that is the real shit ! .... We rock hard .... I AM so proud

what's that song ???  

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XELdE8PM-hE

I had another in mind , but that's a cool one  .....     

 

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:Now, that I didn't do.

Quote:

Now, that I didn't do. I read the article because I thought the title was interesting. My preconceptions only occurred after I read the word 'war', and decided I didn't like the context.

Of course, that's not much better, but meh.

Fair enough.  And no, it's not much better, but your honesty is refreshing.  I'll reread the article in a few days, and give it to a couple of friends to see if they get the same vibe as you.  If so, I'll try to rework it a little to avoid the illusion of advocacy.

Quote:

You also assert that we are still driven by the same brain-directed chemical instincts that we were 'back in the caveman days'. I was asking for evidence of this.

Again, this perhaps stems from my layman knowledge of biology/genetics (I'm hardly the expert), but I'm under the impression that as our brain has evolved, so have our instincts.

The primary evidence that our brains have not evolved is simply mathematics.  We know, for instance, that in a particular genome, we're going to see approximately one hundred 'random' mutations in each offspring.  Of these, about 99 are going to be neutral (most are neutral) or bad.  The bad ones don't always cause death before reproduction, and they are often corrected by recombination and crossover, so that they don't pass down to the offspring in the next generation.  The good mutations, if they don't disappear because of predation, disease, etc, are going to take many  thousands of generations (depending on population size) to show up in significant percentages in the population.

Furthermore, one of the things that a species needs to propagate mutations is a stable population.  In other words, if I have three offspring, and they mate and have three offspring each, we've got nine with a possibility of this new genome.  If two of them mate, the likelihood of passing it on is very high.  If they mate with a random person from outside the group, it's more of a crapshoot.  The more a population breeds within itself, the more likely it is to pass on good mutations.

Consider a human generation of 30 years.  Ten generations, then, is three hundred years.  One hundred is three thousand.  One thousand is thirty thousand years, which puts us square in the African savannah hunting and gathering.  Add to this that humans have not remained stationary.  Quite the opposite.  In just a few thousand years, we've mixed and mingled and expanded such that there has been little chance of speeding up the process.

There's more evidence, of course.  For one thing, when sociobiologists compare data from animals with similar habits -- swallows for mating practice, primates for emotions, aggression, warfare, childrearing, etc... we can see a striking similarity with humans.  If human brains had evolved to the point of allowing us to act against our older natural instincts, we would expect to see cultural and private behaviors that illustrate this development, and in significant numbers.  The opposite is true, and not just a little true.  Strikingly true.  Across all cultures, humans behave in amazingly predictable ways that correspond extremely well to both 'lesser animal' comparisons and to evolutionary models.

So, in summary, mathematics predict that it's impossible for our instincts to have evolved.  We simply haven't had even a tenth, or maybe even a hundredth, of the time necessary for such adaptations to occur.  Second, we have sociobiological and anthropological data that supports the proposition.  Third, to my knowledge, there is no contradictory evidence that's been scientifically validated.  The only research I'm aware of that seems to indicate a break from instinct has all been religiously motivated, or intrinsically flawed in its methodology or its preconceptions.

 Finally, there's a philosophical argument that uses Occam's razor.  If we have an explanation which is simple, parsimonious, and encompasses all the data, then it is very likely to be the correct answer.  Describing human behavior within the context of hunter-gatherer instincts accomplishes all of the criteria.

I hope this short summary helps.  If you want more information, I can put you onto several books you can read.  Frankly, I'm busy writing, and I'd rather not do a book report on something you could easily read from an actual scientist.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Kevin R Brown's picture

That's more than sufficient

That's more than sufficient evidence, thank-you.

Hey, look - I learned things today!

 

Brains are awesome.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

Hambydammit's picture

Speaking of learning

Speaking of learning things... I've also learned...

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/104/52/20753

Humans have evolved more than we previously thought.  It's unclear from this study whether or not there's been significant change to many of our instinctual drives.  Most of what they found has to do with rather automatic processes, like the digestion of lactose. 

Nevertheless, the revised version of this essay will use a little more lenient language when referring to the consistency of our cave-man brains.

 

NOTE TO THEISTS:  No, this finding doesn't invalidate my essay.  It challenges some of it, to be sure.  I will have my eyes open for any published studies on possible selection events having to do with behavior drives.  Should they appear, I will revise my statements accordingly.  This is science at work, and it's damn exciting!

 

Selected excerpts:

Quote:
But humans are in an exceptional demographic and ecological
transient. Rapid population growth has been coupled with vast
changes in cultures and ecology during the Late Pleistocene and
Holocene, creating new opportunities for adaptation. The past
10,000 years have seen rapid skeletal and dental evolution in
human populations and the appearance of many new genetic
responses to diets and disease (4).

In retrospect, it's hard to deny this.  We've known for over well over a century that humans have gotten taller.  If we aren't calling that an evolutionary change, what exactly is it? 

It's important to note that the assertion that the brain has changed little in the last 10,000 years has not been directly challenged by this paper.  Still, it does open some very interesting avenues of inquiry.  If our brain has changed, how?  Memory?  Multitasking?  Emotion recognition?  How does this relate to our cave-man instincts?

Fascinating stuff.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

inspectormustard's picture

The only thing I disagree

The only thing I disagree with is this:

Hambydammit wrote:

We can say with scientific certainty that IF we wish to increase our chance of being healthy and living for a long time, we SHOULD take special care to monitor our intake of calories, sugar, salt, and fat.

I would say that if SOMEONE wishes to increase their chance of being healthy and living for a long time, they should take special care to monitor their intake of calories, sugar, salt, and fat.

As a species, we should encourage people to increase their intake of calories, sugar, salt, nicotine, etc. My reasoning is that once natural selection sorts out the whole lifestyle related death thing we'll be much better for it. We can also reap the temporary benefits of shortened lifespans in medical care for people who live well.

Just sayin'.

pyrokidd's picture

I have a question, though

I have a question, though I'm sure you've probably written an essay about or are thinking about writing one:

Do you think because we act on instinct created by natural selection that free will is essentially illusionary?

"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:I have a question,

Quote:

I have a question, though I'm sure you've probably written an essay about or are thinking about writing one:

Do you think because we act on instinct created by natural selection that free will is essentially illusionary?

I haven't addressed this in an essay yet, primarily because I need to go back and review some of my books on consciousness and the mind before I do.  It's not my strongest subject, so I've been putting it off.

In general, I avoid the topic of free will because I don't think the term is well defined enough to discuss.  Even the concept of a choice is difficult to deal with because of all the colloquial confusion.  Theism doesn't help -- particularly Christianity, because of the idea of "choosing to believe in Jesus."

To answer your question directly, I think that the reductionism necessary to negate choice is a fallacy.  I do believe that the overwhelming evidence points essentially to a behaviorist model, but we are not conscious of the physical events which we cannot change.  To our perception, we have an introduction of new data, a period of weighing data, and resolution based on our conscious calculations.  This perception is accurate, for we have no other way to deal with our senses.  In other words, we perceive things only within the paradigm of conscious thought and decision making, and therefore the decisions are real for all practical purposes.

The argument that free will is an illusion is very similar to the argument that solidity is illusionary.  Though it is true that the desk on which my computer rests is composed primarily of empty space, it's fallacious to assert that it is, in fact, not a solid object.  It is, for all relevant purposes, solid.  The level on which it is mostly emptiness is inaccessible to me, and therefore, irrelevant. 

We can also look at such statements as a false dichotomy.  It is true that my desk is mostly space.  It is also true that it is completely solid.  This appears to be a dichotomy but it is not, for each statement is true within its own closed system.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

pyrokidd's picture

So....basically what you're

So....basically what you're saying is we behave exactly how we're "supposed" to(according to a behavior model based on nature, nurture, possibly unknown variables), but because we lack the information necessary to predict all the outcomes of all the calculations we're always making, for all intents and purposes "free will" exists. Is that right?

 

I think you make a good point in that "free will" is something hard to define though. Alternately, I'd ask if you thought anything of "fate". Obviously not in the religious context of "god's plan for everyone". But it seems to me in the terms of "Nature vs. Nurture" in our psychological makeup that the individual themselves is not necessarily in control of their actions. That is to say, a serial killer didn't just decide to be perverse and kill people, they were always going to perhaps because they inherited a mental disease, were traumatized as a child, etc. The same for a "normal", socialized person with a "normal" life and parents growing up to be "normal". Would you say they were "fated" to how they lived their lives by a variety of circumstances outside their control, or did they have the power at any time to simply decide not to live either way?

 

I'm sorry if I don't make much sense here, and for the over-use of quotes, but this is difficult stuff to put in words....

"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan

pyrokidd's picture

Actually I thought of a

Actually I thought of a slightly better way of putting it:

Anything that CAN happen DOES happen.

The idea behind this is that only one thing possibly CAN happen given the preceding scenario.....basically a cause-effect loop going back to the beginning of the universe, possibly before, although there's no way of knowing. Does this work? If so, it would negate our "free will" decisions as merely the effect of everything around us, which then becomes the cause of the next moment, etc.

 

 I thought of this while reading your essay dealing with runaway sexual selection...it goes back to us being smart animals, but still animals, and I'm not sure us or the animals is really "choosing" anything.

"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:So....basically what

Quote:
So....basically what you're saying is we behave exactly how we're "supposed" to(according to a behavior model based on nature, nurture, possibly unknown variables), but because we lack the information necessary to predict all the outcomes of all the calculations we're always making, for all intents and purposes "free will" exists. Is that right?

I dunno.  Depends on what free will means.  I do say that because we are limited to our own perceptions, which include cognitive functions and limited data, our choices are real in every practical sense.  Put another way, the observation that our existence is deterministic from a certain point of view is meaningless on a practical level.

Quote:
Alternately, I'd ask if you thought anything of "fate".

I think there are essentially three possibilities, and I don't know which is true.

1) The universe is completely deterministic, and quantum events only appear to be random.

2) The universe is not completely deterministic, and there are aspects of quantum mechanics that are utterly unpredictable.  This unpredictability at a quantum level sometimes creates true unpredictability at the "physical" level which we can perceive.

3) The universe is not completely deterministic.  Some things at a quantum level are unpredictable.  This quantum unpredictability does not "bleed" into the physical world in any meaningful way.

There's a trap in this, though.  Again, the question is not whether or not the universe is deterministic.  The question is whether or not the quantum nature of the universe has any effect on the perceptual level of humans.  My opinion is that it doesn't.  This is only my opinion, but I believe that if you could run an experiment where you had 100% accurate data about a human, including every single bit of data held in his brain, every single algorythm used in decision making, and every bit of data about every single experience he'd ever had, you could put him in a situation with a choice, an incredibly powerful computer could predict his choice with 100% accuracy.

This is also to say that if you could control time and rewind back, performing the exact same experiment in exactly the same way, the decision would always be the same.

As you're reading this, I hope you're understanding just how meaningless determinism is.  Such an accumulation of data is impossible.  Such a computer is impossible.  We only experience each moment of our lives once, and we cannot predict the future enough to have certain knowledge about anything.  In short, I believe fate is real in this sense.  We cannot do anything to alter the laws of physics, and what is going to happen is going to happen, in all cases.  The observation is nearly meaningless, though, since we experience choices and make decisions based on far less than complete data.  Our control of our own lives is real, even though technically speaking, we don't have any choice but to do what we are going to do.

I hope that's not too confusing.  This topic is difficult because there are so many problems with the language we use to talk about it.

Quote:
Would you say they were "fated" to how they lived their lives by a variety of circumstances outside their control, or did they have the power at any time to simply decide not to live either way?

Again, yes and no.  Yes, at each step of the way, Ted Bundy believed he was making the "best" choice for himself, based on the data which was in his brain.  At any point in his life, he might have made other decisions, and things might have been different, and if we were looking back at that different life, we would be saying the same thing -- he did what seemed the best decision at every point.

But again, we have to consider that Ted Bundy perceived a world of choices, and within the real functionality of a dynamic and largely unknown society, he was completely responsible for his own actions.  Because humans do not know the outcome of their actions until they happen, we perceive probability.  Because we have no option but to perceive and act within the bounds of probability, it doesn't matter that the probability is really a local perception, not a universal reality.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I don't make much sense here, and for the over-use of quotes, but this is difficult stuff to put in words....

Yeah.  It is very difficult to talk about this stuff.  The bottom line is that the perception of probability creates the reality of it regardless of whether or not there is a deterministic set of "all data" that cannot be altered.  That set of data is so inaccessible to humans that its existence doesn't matter.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

I MUST SHOUT , those are

I MUST SHOUT , 

Those are some of the best questions ( pyrokidd ) and reflecting ( Hamby ), I've read in a while. Buddha would like all of that , and agree with Hamby,

  "That set of data is so inaccessible to humans that its existence doesn't matter." ~  from a modern buddha Hamby ! 

  

   

 

 

pyrokidd's picture

I posted on the thread

I posted on the thread dealing with this.....I'm wondering if you get the feeling of knowing everything and nothing at the same time, being happy you can come to a logical conclusion but disappointed that the conclusion is that we just aren't smart enough to know....it's a bizzare place to be.

 

I'm sure iGod gets it. WE ARE everything and nothing, right?

"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan

Yeah, the yin yang !  LOL

Yeah, the yin yang !  LOL

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:I posted on the thread

Quote:
I posted on the thread dealing with this.....I'm wondering if you get the feeling of knowing everything and nothing at the same time, being happy you can come to a logical conclusion but disappointed that the conclusion is that we just aren't smart enough to know....it's a bizzare place to be.

To be honest, I don't worry too much about what I can't know anymore.  Maybe it's because what I can know takes more time than I have.  I've learned a healthy appreciation for irrelevance.  That is, when I can logically conclude that the answer to a question is irrelevant, I no longer care very much about the answer.  When it comes to things like free will, I could honestly care less whether the universe is really deterministic or not.  Knowing the answer with certainty wouldn't change anything about the way I or anyone else lives their lives.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism

Hambydammit wrote: So Does

Hambydammit wrote:


 

So Does This Mean I Can Just Kill You?

No. If you believe this, then you have ignored the most crucial message that science has to teach us about morality. This doesn't take any philosophy to answer. It only takes historical observation. In all of recorded history across all cultures, there has never, ever been a time when humans arbitrarily killed other humans. Never. In all of the collected archaeological data in the world, there is no compelling case for humans ever arbitrarily killing other humans. As long as humans have had societies, they have had agreements, whether unspoken, verbal, or written into law, about when killing is acceptable, and when it is not. These agreements are part of the balance of natural selection. If intraspecies competition leads to extinction, the species will die. On any legitimate computer simulation, a population which arbitrarily kills its own kind will become extinct. Science gives us the answer, as clear as day. If humans had ever developed the tendency to kill arbitrarily, we would not be here to ask the question of why we do not.

 

Thanks for pointing me to this essay, it's very well written and the most thought-out discussion on how to use the word "should" from an evolutionist perspective that I've read (Although I have to confess I haven't read much on the subject). A few comments:

 

I think there may be another sense of the word "should" that you didn't cover: the moral should, as in "You should share your cookies with your brother because you have several and he has none." There are necessarily no conditions on this should, because it should be done just for the sake of doing it, because it's the right thing. The idea is captured in a quote from Ghandi:

 

"It's the action, not the fruit of the action, that's important. You have to do the right thing. It may not be in your power, may not be in your time, that there'll be any fruit. But that doesn't mean you stop doing the right thing. You may never know what results come from your action."

 

I've heard some people deny that such a thing exists, that every supposed "good" thing a person does has some sort of selfish motive. But I can't be convinced of that, because I've experienced it, a few times in my life, when I've done something solely for the reason that it was the right thing to do. I think (and again, correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not really trying to attack your thesis, but instead trying to understand it) that under your view, from an evolutionary standpoint, this moral should is an illusion, a concept buried in our subconscience from generations upon generations of genetic conditioning towards social behavior. What concerns me is what might happen if more people actually come to believe this. In your quote above, you say that this doesn't mean that I can just kill you, but I fail to see why. Just because we have condemned killing as a group has nothing to do with whether I as an individual can kill you. Take the example of the Columbine shooting. Imagine you're one of those kids, your life pretty much sucks, but you love shooting things on video games, so you start thinking, why not end this pathetic life by having a blast by shooting people in real life? I don't know if that's what actually happened, but I think it's a pretty realistic possibility. What would you say to someone like that?

Take another example. Suppose it's in the future, and I am a crazy smart scientist, and that I totally buy into your view of morality. Suppose I figure out a way to completely wipe out all humanity from the face of the earth. And I start thinking, this whole humanity thing is pretty dumb, most people are miserable, and the only reason they keep living and reproducing is because evolution has selected genes that lead these people to believe that surviving and reproducing are worthwhile. But I finally see that it's not worthwhile at all, and I'm going to do everyone a favor by ending this whole sick game. Those Christians and other idiots will call me an evil lunatic, but that's just because they're ignorant of what evolution really means. They actually believe there's some ultimate Reason why we're here, and obviously that's ridiculous and unscientific. So I'll just go ahead and do it.

This, of course, doesn't prove that the moral should actually exists. But, if there's any room to believe that it does, I'm going to take it. And I think there's plenty of room.

 

Hambydammit's picture

Quote:I think there may be

Quote:
I think there may be another sense of the word "should" that you didn't cover: the moral should, as in "You should share your cookies with your brother because you have several and he has none." There are necessarily no conditions on this should, because it should be done just for the sake of doing it, because it's the right thing.

Maybe my essay wasn't that well written after all.  This is exactly the sense in which I'm using the word should.  The whole point is that there are conditions on this should, and there is no such thing as doing something just because it's the right thing.  "Right" has to have a referent, or it's empty of meaning.

Quote:
I've heard some people deny that such a thing exists, that every supposed "good" thing a person does has some sort of selfish motive. But I can't be convinced of that, because I've experienced it, a few times in my life, when I've done something solely for the reason that it was the right thing to do.

You're mistaking conscious selfish motives with "mathematically selfish" motives.  Sure, there are tons of times when people just "feel" that something is the right thing to do, and they do it knowing that they will not receive any benefit from it.  This is the math of natural selection at work.  We have evolved into creatures who have moral instincts.  That's what Ghandi was talking about, even though he didn't know it.  You have to remember that evolution doesn't care about you or me.  We are rolls of the dice in a very, very large game.  Natural selection favors social creatures who sometimes do things "for no reason at all."  That, however, is the referent we are looking for.  The reason it's "right" is that natural selection has given us instincts to believe that it's right.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism