I believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit
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I became a baptized believing Christian at a Christian College. Shortly afterward I ended up in the hospital with mumps for 2 weeks, and came out divorced from reality (bipolar).
The first (highly recommended) doctor said "get rid of that Bible, do what guys your age do - and it'll be ok". I thought the nurses were angels (catholic hospital), the guy giving the shock treatments was the devil (bald, stooped over, pulled a gas tank on wheels, used a big hypo needle). I didn't know where I was when I woke up, but I knew the Bible was true and kept reading.
My life began to come together. I started the trade that perfectly fit me (carpentry, 42 years ago), met the perfect wife at church (39 years ago), worked for doctors that advised me to get a different doctor, walked into the library and discovered the featured book "Moodswing", got on lithium - no problems for over 30 years.
It's all real to me. I believe all the Bible, though there are a lot of mysterous parts that I don't understand. I see the bipolar as a blessing in disguise now. I'm very happy.
I'm open to your challenges to my faith, and your perspective. To me, however, walking by faith just gets better and better. I'm getting old outside, but inside it's a palace.
I chose the name Mephosheth because I know I am a cripple, but I get to eat at the King's table.
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Bipolar as a blessing in disguise? I wonder if all those throughout history who have commited suicide as a result of being blessed with bipolar disorder would agree? When is it a blessing and when is it a curse?
I think you can see where I am going with this. You are simply taking a negative and putting a positive spin on it. I can lose my legs in a car wreck and call it a blessing but that still doesn't change the fact that I have no legs. Nothing is actually different about the situation, you just choose to call it a blessing instead of a curse.
You could easily have been one of the billions that go through life without Bipolar Disorder and still ended up as happy as you are today. Why credit some unevidenced 'god' with making you happy through the blessing of Bipolar Disorder when the reasonable explanation is that you have a disease that is being medicaly treated with pharmaceuticals and that you are going on to live a happy and fulfilling life thanks to the marvelous advances of actual real world science that have found treatments for maladies such as Bipolar Disorder.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
welcome!
i underwent lumbar fusion about 5 months ago. i developed a degenerative bone disease in my spine during my teens, and was walking with a cane by the age of 36. the brilliant neursurgeon that fixed me wasn't god, the wonderful nurses that cared for me weren't angels. and strength i found to get up and walk, with no cane, only hours after my surgery came not from faith or a higher power but from within myself. i never looked at my back problem as a sign from god, or punishment by god, and i won't give god credit for the cure. my disease was the result of genetics and a bad roll of the dice. my recovery and current good health are the result of science, the hard work of a few educated and dedicated individuals, and my own perseverance and determination. i never needed god nor faith, only the desire to live life on my terms.
[edited for the addition of a lengthy personal anecdote]
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Welcome to the forum, Trinitarian. You will find many challenges here. The question is whether you will actually read and reflect upon what is offered. You are welcome at our table as well. We sup on reality. It is sometimes a bitter repast but is always more substantial than ethereal promises.
I, too, have suffered. I had a stroke, which leaves me dragging a leg and in constant pain. Being a cripple was insufficient, it would seem. Then, I had the pleasure of colon cancer. No angels came from heaven to serve me as I struggled for my life. I exist because I chose to exist.
Empower yourself.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
You read the Bible and chose to take a drug from that evil, Godless science?
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad the stuff is working out for you but why are you giving credit to your God when the lithium seems to be doing more good?
Have you caught any flak from your church because you went to the drug instead of prayer? Some give their congregations hell for that.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Hey Man. Welcome to the forum. You and me are probably around the same age. I'm 55.
I tried the whole Jesus thing years ago. It didn't work for me at all. I found the Bible to be absurd nonsense. I'm much happier now. Knowing that this is the only life I'll get, I'm making the most of it.
But, if you are truly happy as you say you are, then keep doing what you're doing. As long as you're not using your faith to keep others from their own happiness then I say, if it feels good, do it. Life is short.
I'm not sure why you came into this group though. I guarantee you're not going to sway any in here. In fact, your faith might very well be shaken by the evidence that beliefs based on myths and magic is nonsense.
If, on the other hand, you came in here to see if there might be a happier way to live based on logic, reason, and rational thinking then this forum is a great place to start.
Whatever you do, good luck.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
But you still take your lithium, right?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
You still take your lithium, right?
Yes; however I have done the same thing that Kay R Jameson mentions in her book "An Unquiet Mind" - gone to a super low dose, no blood tests, way below "therapeutic level".
I am convinced that you don't need near as much of that as some doctors think - especially after you are experienced with bp.
After I had read the book "Moodswing" and got a doctor that corrected my diagnosis (from scz) he said he wanted me to become stabilized then "go off the lithium" and catch the manic upswing coming on. He then died (colon cancer).
The next doctor came in and I told him I was ready to "go off" the lithium. He went through the roof. I did it anyway for 9 months, caught the manic thing coming on, started the lithium and was ok. After that I lost all interest in going off, so I went to the super-low dose. I'm 63.
vessel
I'm not pretending on this perspective now. There was a time I didn't see it as a blessing but I do now.
It forces you to become a "student of moods". It allows you to see things (my theory) from a variety of points of view - from the top to bottom.
In my case it resulted in me leaving college and getting into the trade I am really suited for. It also put me in the right place to meet my wife.
It has enabled me to understand and help some people I think because of what I went through. For instance, I have given the book "Moodswing" to several people. Some people have said they have found help with it.
I don't think (my personal view) you can whip bipolar just with "tune up in a can".
Thanks for the welcome Nero.
I love reality too and want to sup on it. I appreciate your frankness.
As for my faith, if it won't stand the test it's not real. I will try to think about what you say. I will admit I am totally convinced about what I believe though I can't prove it to you.
jcgadfly,
You know I had a problem with bitterness about doctors, etc for a while because it seems I had to diagnose myself. I, like most Americans in the 60's were diagnosed scz when we were actually bp.
The book "Moodswing" has the view that lithium was not prescribed much in US because they couldn't make money on it.
I'm typing this to you on an "evil science" computer - a powerful tool that can be used for good or bad. I think this is a great tool. I don't look at science or money as evil in itself.
The Christians I know don't think science is evil either.
I am glad things are working out for you.
However, if your God is such a great guy, wouldn't he have been able to fix your problems after you prayed about it instead of you having to diagnose yourself and get a prescription?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I can assure you with utmost confidence that such opening statements will not be looked upon well here. We would regard that as the ultimate in boastful close-mindedness. Most who come here, at very least, have some sort of idea that they can prove what they believe, even if that proof usually gets blasted to pieces faster than they can blink, but to retain and be fully convinced of it in the knowledge that not a shred of evidence supports it leaves your position untenable, (since it can be dismissed out of hand just as easily as it can be propogated) for it indicates that you got there via the process of non-thinking called "faith". We do not believe in the concept of sin, but this would be cutting it rather close to what most atheists would consider an appalling statement.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
That question doesn't bother me. I have confidence God knows exactly what He's doing.
If I was to try to come up with an analogy the first thing I think of is why does the coach make the athelete suffer pain?
I was admitting that I can't prove faith to you, though faith in Christ proves itself to me. If you are right that I am boasting take it that I am boasting in Christ not in myself. He's the one who has done the proving.
From my perspective faith is not a non-thinking thing. To me faith in Christ lights the darkest corners of the heart. I think walking by faith involves the whole being.
Welcome, mephibosheth. (Wow! That's a mouthful!)
I'm sorry you've had to deal with so much - as well as others that have posted here. I can't say that I empathize, but I certainly sympathize with all of you.
We're glad you're here. A little warning to a new friend, though. The folks on these forums like assertions to be backed up. Scripture and proselitizing don't go very far around here.
So join in the discussions and debates and enjoy!
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Thanks for the welcome. One thing I like about this forum so far is the lack of airs and stiltedness. I appreciate the frankness of your warning; however, I think I should be allowed to be frank and honest too and tell my reality as I experience it.
I haven't seen anything proved on here yet nor have I ask it of anyone.
As far as prosetilizing - creating faith? creating light? opening eyes? None of these are things I can do.
I'm a little confused.
From what you've said, it sounds like YOU are the one who has dealt with bipolar, you have taken the initiative to learn about it and control it and deal with doctors who misdiagnose it, etc.
Where exactly, does your god come into it?
It sounds to me like everything you did was your doing, and you're doing just fine from the sound of it.
Sorry. I guess I wasn't very clear. (I do that sometimes... bear with me!) What I was attempting to say was something more along the lines of "preaching to us doesn't go very far around here."
Again, join in the discussions; be prepared to back up any assertions and we really are glad you're here!
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Jarem,
The way the faith thing has worked with me since '63 is like the opposite of gravity inside, and I don't mean manic but I mean a constant lift up from inside.
Without this inner inspiration from the gospel I refer to it as being left with tune up in a can - just the med and life. This is life with a lift and life with light that shines beyond death.
Another thing I would say about where God comes in is that I am a terrible navigator. This faith thing, God, His Word works for me like GPS! I am relaxed about following the map. To me it's great.
Susan,
I like your hat.
To me your statement that preaching doesn't go very far is like boastful closed mindedness.
My friend spoke on the Civil War tonight. You probably have read that they didn't know there was such a thing as germs during the Civil War - the fact that they didn't know and later when a guy brought it up they didn't believe, and put him in a institution and threw him out of the medical society - didn't mean there wasn't such a thing.
So if you have a thing about preaching, it cuts you off from the stream of what maybe is. You can preach to me - I like it.
You have backed up your assertion that I am welcome with your friendly post.
OK!! You have a great sense of humor. We like that!
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Most people call this 'staying positive'. I don't need a god or a gospel for that.
"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker
"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine
Rave,
A bad experience I have had in life is getting off into the false religion of "power of positive thinking" - which I would refer to as positive pretending.
My experience with this false religion is that it represents faith in positivity - which makes a lousy god. When things in life get truly sour, positivity in itself doesn't have the answer.
The true God does have the answer - "all things work together for good to those that love the Lord".
I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding or misconstruing what I'm saying. What I mean by 'positive' is looking on the bright side of life, seeing the glass as half full rather than half empty, focusing on your goals instead of brooding over your failures and disappointments, approaching each day as a chance to do better than the last, etc. My comment was a simple off the cuff remark, don't read too much into it.
"This is the real world, stupid." - Charlie Brooker
"It is necessary to be bold. Some people can be reasoned into sense, and others must be shocked into it. Say a bold thing that will stagger them, and they will begin to think." - Thomas Paine
Rave,
I'm not intentionally distorting what you are saying. In my experience you have to have a source of motivation and inspiration to do that - something other than just being positive and "letting a smile be your umbrella".
Mephibosheth
[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes]
umbrella ella ella eh eh eh.
>_____>
Now back to the topic currently in progress.
hi!
Mephibosheth, it sounds to me as if you are simply letting god be your umbrella, as you put it. so the idea of a supernatural being that cares for you gives you strenght, fine. But what I'd like to know: Why do you think god is necessary here? Isn't it much more uplifting, that you got through the hard times in your life by yourself and with the help of those who love you?
It's like people thanking god for surviving a disaster instead of thanking the firefighters/doctors/policemen that got them out there.
I think it belittles the achivements of any person to say "I did it with god's help"
"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts."
Billy Joel, 1993
And God spoke: You can stand under my umberella -ella -ella -eh -eh -eh ...
God is my shelter and my fortress, yes. For me to take the credit myself would be to try to be my own god. I see myself, and obviously I would make a lousy god. The God that made all the earth and everything in it, the God who sent His Son Jesus to reveal Himself to us and deliver us from our sins - now there's an umbrella!
Nice musical break there ;">
To take credit for your own accomplishments in life is not you trying to be your own god. It's you acknowledging that you are a strong person who overcame a great deal in life. You don't have to be your own god, but you are your own master. You have free will, god or no, and you used it to build a good life for yourself, despite personal obstacles. A great many people without any belief in a deity overcome just as much, and more. Giving your god so much credit for what you've done yourself is to sell yourself short. Maybe your belief in him assisted you, but you still did it yourself (with some human help, obviously.)
I second that, DrT. That's what I meant.
No, I know how dead and depraved I was and how Christ made me alive and raised me up. It is all His work. It's my joy to give Him the glory.
You are free to glorify who or whatever you want - but so am I.
Hi el.kundo!
Even though you're not a brand new member, we'd like to get to know you a little better. When you get a chance, we'd love it if you'd hop over to the General Conversation, Introductions and Humor forum and introduce yourself!
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Way to tell him Susan.
By the way thanks for you explanation about the quotes. It's tricky.
I don't understand how to do the smileys either.
Mephibosheth
Using the Quote Function gets much easier with practice. (Trust me!)
I put together a quick tutorial for smilies for you here.
Enjoy!
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
too easy - Thanks Susan,
Yeah - but I notice you didn't quote me.
Header -- ''Science'' we don't pay attention to no stinking Science
Well Hi and a big Hey Mephibosheth, So how is that Truth telling working out for you, bub ?
R e :: ''Science'' we don't pay attention to no stinking Science
Yo! Dude (smirk) Ouch, What's it like to be the third most unfairly prejudiced & sheerly 'clueless' person on this entire messageboard ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdbrqfvXy0 {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdbrqfvXy0}
Omni -0 F F - Site --
Wheel .. Of .. Fortune ::
View Updated Photo that I Uploaded --
I've already repeatedly said, many times, IF I were to worry that one post could do so much harm as to derail the benefits of posting . . then I'd quit!
re :: I wonder (sigh!!)!!
Question :: How much confusion will come of all of this ?! And may have arose, at your thinking and lack of understanding, and by not asking about meaning ?
Oh Hey! Let's not run off too soon . . now shall we ?!??
Other Off-Site :: 0ther Off-Site ::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awqmmd8iGgw {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awqmmd8iGgw}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39mnTcoa8I {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39mnTcoa8I}
Oh, I'm up most nights past eleven . . I'm an Adult after-all!
Call me irresponsible; Call me unreliable (hardy har har) Call me irresponsible; Call me unreliable (hardy har har)
Dana, why are you resurrecting an eight year old post.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
A.) Well, Why not ask Zarathustra ? The Quote : "Now, the problem is this - if you (Fonzie) were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity, why should I believe you about Jesus? 28th time ''
. . .
Misc Image ( with a 'rascally' touch ) ::
View Uploaded Comment -- HaHaHaha !!
Omni/Off - Site ::
Remember the problem presented to the Hindu Lord Brahma of what to do with Sri Shiva, after Lord Brahma thought for a while and said, "I understand your predicament. It was my fondest wish to see the baby-child of Rudra and Sati. Thanks to the foolish actions of Daksha, the father-in-law, (the guy who disrespected, disrespect was at work, in failing to provide the proper invitations, the same 'parent' who initially forbade her to have anything to do with him). Recalling, it WAS due to his (the father-in-law's) actions, Sati is no more. However, all is not lost just yet. Know that she has been re-incarnated as Uma, the daughter of Himavan, the king of the mountains. Becoming aware of her destiny from a tender age, she has resolved to obtain Shiva for a husband and has been performing a penance for that purpose. The child of Uma and Shiva shall be your savior." The songs of the birds filled the air, and a atmosphere was redolent ''with a divine fragrance. Parvati looked at this miracle in awe. Shiva however, continued his meditation without being perturbed. Kama taking aim, judged that it was soon time. He strung him with his bow made of sugarcane (sweet, sweet candy)'' and affixed "a flower tipped arrow to it. Impelled by his incantations, the arrow flew from the bow and struck Shiva squarely on his chest..'' Which awaken sexual passions in the terrible god Sri Shiva. But, for his trouble and services rendered, by doing so Kama was subject to immediate incineration by Shiva's third eye. Like wise recall ''that tumultuous uproar resounding through earth and sky tore the hearts of the sons of Dhritarashtra'', 100 fell (of his sons), and he (Dhritarashtra) was born blind because of unknown Karmic forces to him. These type of practices and belief and worship everything seems to indicate greater ignorance, as the result.
That is a depiction of Sri Kali, intrinsic to an essential knowledge set, we all will recall how she unknowingly stepped on her lord and, realizing what she had done, recoiled back in horror, sticking out her tongue (hense the TYPICAL depiction in Art). Being remorseful, she cried out, “Oh, My Lord!”, . . I know if nothing else most will now recall , right ?
re:: It's all a matter of Timing, Hold On Tight
No Subject --- Had a moment so I posted a Fun image ::
No Subject
And the Moon shall give her light . . .
..because they have not listened to My words,' declares the LORD, 'which I sent to them again and again by My servants the prophets; but you did not listen,' declares the LORD!!
An 'Alternative' image I thought best to both kinda be sure I cancelled and scrapped was, as follows ::
Addressed to OFF-Site ::
Not to detract from this topic or any comments; but . . I couldnt resist . . .
Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who's the fairest of them all ?!?
Omni-Off site :: View Upload . . uploaded picture part of comment
(( So, I am not utterly misunderstood or further embarrassed ** the phrase is purely allusory to the "sleep", of our hero, within hallowed grounds of the fabled island of Avalon, from the Arthurian legend(s), K? ))
Purely annoying little needling, in the following (bigger smile) ::
''We find references to these deities from the End of the Middle Kingdom to the Old Kingdom, all the way through to Greco- Roman times. The in some of the earliest religious text, known as the Pyramid Texts, mentions them well over fourteen times. From these texts, we learn of their basic nature.
For example, Spell 2078 and 2079 describe them as,
"..friends of the king, (who) attend on this King...., the children of Horus of Khem (letopolis); they tie the rope-ladder for this King. they make firm the wooden ladder for this King, they cause the King to ascend to Khepri when he comes into being in the eastern side of the sky".
From Spell 1333, we learn that they, "spread protection of life over your father the Osiris King, since he was restored by the gods", while Spell 552 tells us that, "I will not be thirsty by reason of Shu, I will not be hungry by reason of Tefnut; Hapy, Duamutef, Kebehsenuef, and Imsety will expel this hunger which is in my belly and this thirst which is on my lips". However, in the New Kingdom Book of the Going Forth by Day (the Book of the Dead, Spell 137), tells us more about these gods:
"O sons of Horus (sometimes called the sons of Osiris): Imsety, Hapy, Duamutef, Kebehsenuef: as you spread your protection over your father Osiris-Khentimentiu, so spread your protection over (the deceased), as you remove the impediment from Osiris-Khentimentiu, so he might live with the gods and drive Seth from him."
Spell 17 elaborates further on these gods, telling us that:
"As for the tribunal that is behind Osiris, Imsety, Hapy, Duamutef, Kebehsenuef; it is these who are behind the Great Bear in the northern sky....As for these seven spirits, Imsety, Hapy, Duamutef, Kebehsenuef, Maayotef, He-Who-is-under-his-Moringa-Tree, and Horus-the-Eyeless, it is they who were set by Anubis as a protection for the burial of Osiris."
source: http://www.touregypt.net/