God Bless Spain and Italy

meshblorg
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God Bless Spain and Italy

They're breaking down the clutches of dogma and faith. More proof that seperation of church and state is a very good thing.

 http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/what-happens-when-a-country-gives-up-religion-as-spain-shows-nothing-much.html

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What Happens When a Country Gives Up Religion: as Spain Shows, Nothing Much

During Franco´s dictatorship Spain was a very Catholic country. After 3 decades of democracy, Spain is not a Catholic country anymore. First, loss of religion became apparent with the legalization of divorce and contraceptives and the promotion of sex ed. This was followed by the decriminalization of abortion, the acceptance of drug possession for personal consumption (drug users are not criminals in Spain, but treated instead as medical patients) and a general acceptance of premarital sex. Later gambling in public places became commonplace, prostitution was legalized and regulated, and recently gay marriage became legal as well. So other than euthanasia, I can´t think of anything that the Church used to opposed that is not legal now in Spain. While 95% of the Spanish youth declared in the 60s that religion played some role in their life now only a third do.

Religion in Spain is mostly becoming tradition. People marry in churches because they are beautiful and full of history, not because they actually practice. They still teach religion in most schools, but to most it is as if they were teaching Spanish history, the history of a country that used to be religious but is not anymore. Now the only religious group in Spain are Muslim immigrants, whose views on society are surprisingly similar to those of the Franco. Nudity for example was a big no no at that time and it continues to be so for Spanish Muslims. For others nudity makes part of the daily press in Spain. Nudist beaches and regular beaches are mostly mixed, and most people don´t mind.

But not only is Spain liberal in most matters previously opposed by the Catholic Church. Spain is also tolerant in other unexpected ways. For example, in Spain the use of P2P programs to download music for personal consumption is not a punishable offense. In Spain people openly use Limewire, Zudeo, Bittorrent for legal and what in other countries would be illegal content without fear of being prosecuted. The only illegal activity in this area, and reasonably so, is people who download music/movies, print CDs or DVDs and sell them.

If anything, Spain proves that societies do not fall apart when they give up religion and almost everything that was illegal for religious reasons, becomes legal. The story of Spain is not unique. Italy, another country where religion used to play a very important role in society, has also transformed most of its churches in tourist attractions. Contrary to popular belief, the country still functions pretty well. I guess --to the disappointment of people who equate religion with morality-- the story of Spain and Italy prove that people do not need religion to behave ethically. A good education will do. Spain and Italy have less policemen and people in jail per inhabitant than the United States, which happens to be the last mostly religious wealthy country on earth.

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The thing that I love about religion is that they are terrified of the masses of non-believing people.

Without childhood indoctrination, religions would shrink dramatically in a few generations.  And even childhood indoctrination is starting to fail.  Becky Fischer from the "Jesus Camp" documentary said in an interview that as many as "7/10 children raised in a church leave it when they come of [legal adult] age." 

 We can also see many church's heavily watering down the Bible and their dogma  to make it more appealing to a more moderate and sensible public.  Religion would love to see us back in the dark ages of europe where the church had unmatched authority.

No wonder Evangelicals are taking more extreme measures to draw people back into their pyramid scheme cult.

I also believe that living in the west and seeing how extreme Islam can be in Europe and the Middle East helps to bring a lot of discredit to religion.  So I hope the jews and muslims blow up each other more and more.  "thou shall not kill [unless they have different beliefs from yours]"

 


kriz
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Thats a pretty interesting

Thats a pretty interesting article, I am very appreciative of Spanish culture...I was an exchange student there in 95-96.

 

While I found many religious people in Spain while I was there, it was not as bad as the USA and people where definately more tolerant of unbelievers.  The worst I ever got there was a joke someone leveled at me (oh so you don't believe in God?  Have you heard of the Spanish Inquisition?) It was very lighthearted though and we had a good laugh.

What impressed me was just the lack of draconian measures anywhere you went.  Nudity and cursing on broadcast TV, cursing in front of or at children, drinking age of 16 which was loosely enforced (no ID required..you look 16?  OK heres some beer).  Yet people were very friendly and considerate to each other...who would of thunk it? 

Also their high school makes high school in the US look like prison camp...while I was there I never even heard of anyone being suspended.  Smoking in the hall was technically not allowed, but everyone did it.  If a teacher walked by you just put the cigarette behind your back.  If the principal caught you you had to sweep up the hall, and that was it.  Classes started at a certain time, but if you were a couple minutes late you just quietly took your seat.  If you skipped class or came in very late, well too bad for you, thats your problem (hope you pass the test).  Students did not blindly except the teacher, and would probe her with questions.  Oh, and  of course you can leave school during a lunch break, when I told them you couldnt do that at my school in the Us they looked at me as if I was from another planet.  Its a lunch break, why on earth would you be forced to stay on school grounds?  You're not even forced to stay there when theres not a break.  On the whole it was much closer to a college type atmosphere.

 

When I got back I kept letting curses slip, and would get in trouble with religious types.  Or I wouldnt take a stupid rule in school seriously and get suspended.  The Spanish seem to live with a lot more freedom than we do. 


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Even before the 60s Spain

Even before the 60s Spain was beginning to see the church as outdated and oppressive.  In "Homage to Catalonia", George Orwell's memoir of the Spanish Civil War (1936 to 1939), he remarked approvingly several times about the Spanish people's lack of religious sentiments.  After the anarchists and socialists successfully gained power, the first buildings to be looted and destroyed were the churches.  During Orwell's time as an anti-Fascist soldier, he noted that most of the old churches were turned into outhouses.  Franco and the Fascists, on the other hand, were given the blessing of the catholic church.  In fact, Pat Buchanan has called Franco, the brutal dictator, a "Catholic savior"!  I'm sure that the church's support of a brutal dictatorship in their country must have further eroded their faith in the vatican.  


meshblorg
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Anti-Dogma

I disagree with the quote in your topic. To me the worst government is a dictatorship of any time.

I am not simply against religion. I against DOGMA of all kinds. Religious Dogma, Communist Dogma, Fascist Dogma, and any other "unfounded righteousness, intolerant, and brutal" dogmatic belief systems.

Fuck the USSR.

Fuck Lenin

Fuck Stalin

Fuck Hitler

Fuck Jesus

Fuck Mao

Fuck Kim Jong Il

Fuck the Popes

Fuck the Muslim Clerics

Fuck Mohammed

Fuck Moses

Fuck Noah

Fuck God

Fuck Sheva

Fuck Buddha

Fuck Bush

Fuck Ted Haggard

and the list goes on...


kriz
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Alright, calm down man.  Is

Alright, calm down man.  Is there anything you won't fuck?


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Lmao!   Anything that

Lmao!

 

Anything that walks.


voltaire28
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I agree with your list, with

I agree with your list, with the exception of Lenin.


meshblorg
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I shit on Lenin and Marx

I shit on Lenin and Marx


voltaire28
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meshblorg wrote: I shit on

meshblorg wrote:
I shit on Lenin and Marx

You're entitled to your opinion.

 


meshblorg
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I've visited many parts of

I've visited many parts of eastern europe and have studied the history.  That bullshit known as communism is really just state capitalism and is a shitty system.

The only good thing about Marx when he said religion was the opium of the masses.  However his ideas of communism are contrary to human nature and that's why they will never work. 

 The only way they could work is if superman (or god lol) came down and enforced equality by brutal force (there's a comic about this, it's what would happen if superman was raised in the USSR...he basically makes a society where everyone is brainwashed and is perfectly communist

Otherwise I hate Lenin for all the people he killed, forcing his idelogy upon others (communism is essentially a religion), and trying to create a perfect society among imperfect selfish creatures.

 I open their mouthes and take diareah dumps in them.


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Since you seem rabidly

Since you seem rabidly dogmatic in your views, i see no reason to try and argue with you.


meshblorg
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I base my belief on the

I base my belief on the facts that communism failed, not on dogma or scripture.

 The closest thing we ever had to communism were a few hippie farms in the USA in the 60s.

 It's a false hope that is as dangerous as strict organized religion.


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meshblorg wrote: I

meshblorg wrote:

I disagree with the quote in your topic. To me the worst government is a dictatorship of any time.

I am not simply against religion. I against DOGMA of all kinds. Religious Dogma, Communist Dogma, Fascist Dogma, and any other "unfounded righteousness, intolerant, and brutal" dogmatic belief systems.

Fuck the USSR.

Fuck Lenin

Fuck Stalin

Fuck Hitler

Fuck Jesus

Fuck Mao

Fuck Kim Jong Il

Fuck the Popes

Fuck the Muslim Clerics

Fuck Mohammed

Fuck Moses

Fuck Noah

Fuck God

Fuck Sheva

Fuck Buddha

Fuck Bush

Fuck Ted Haggard

and the list goes on...

Fuck capitalism. Smiling

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I live in China and have

I live in China and have studied the communist world. I can completely back up what meshblorg is saying about the evils of Leninism. 

When Mao ze Dong took over China in 1949, the first thing he implemented was agrarian reform. He took land away from landlords, killed many, and redistributed it so each peasant got an identical fair share. During this first reform, peasants owned their own land completley, with no state grip. They were very happy because the communists had made good on their promise. China was also industrializing under a five year plan, and industries, with the help of the Russians (who were destalinizing after his death in 1952) had partial private control so factory workers were paid good wages. China's curious mix of public and private economy worked very well until 1953, when Mao decided to socialize agriculture and force everyone into Russian style kolchos or collectives. Now, people still owned some land, but everyone shared tools and equipment. People were less happy. Industry too, was state controlled.

 

Mao was satisfied even though his people were not, until he came up with his next insane scheme in 1957: the great leap forward. The premise was that China would undertake a quantum leap and catch up with the USA in thirty years. To do this, Mao undertook the final stage of communist agricultural dogma, and forced everyone into communes literally overnight in 1958. The communes were massive complexes often with 30,000 families. It provided schooling, nursing, hospitals, and housing, and the best (i mean worst) part was that no-one owned everything. All land was state-controlled, all tools were state controlled, all everything was state controlled. It was a miserable cradle to the grave system.

 At the same time, Mao believed that steel was the gauge of a nation's economy, so to launch "satellites to heaven" and raise steel output along with industrial chemicals, fertilizers, military machinery and agriculture, he ordered thousands of little backyard steel furnaces to be built in the communes, and people to melt all their possessions to make steel to boost the numbers.  During the great leap forward, Mao may have come closer than any nation to acheiving marxist-leninist genuine communism.

It was a disaster. People were so intent on making steel that crops rotted and died. Steel was useless and brittle, as the Chinese lacked the sophisticated ultra heat treatment and refining machinery. 98% of it had to be scrapped. China's crude logistical system broke down entirely. Agriculture relied on crude, outdated communist methods like packing fertilizer so thick that children could stand on it (a famous 1958 picture in a Beijing newspaper). The satellites to heaven were so rigorously enforced that corrupt officials cooked the books instead of facing steep punishment for failing quotas. The state took from the peasants accordingly and millions starved over the next three years.

 

Why did the cultural revolution happen? How was Mao able to thwart the Moderates and get Lin Bao on his side? He printed millions of copies of the little red book (more red books have been printed than bibles) and distributed them across the PLA? How was he able to raise an army of young fanatics to destroy the capitalist influence coming from the moderate right? Communist China had the most effective brainwashing program in history. These kids were prepared to kill (and they definitely did, almost 20 million people) and die for Mao. He raised a fucking army of Red Guards who went on one of the most awful reigns of terror in history.

So the people worshipped him, thought him a demigod, killed for him, died for him, his book of "wisdom" was more widely read than the bible, everyone had to read it under pain of death.

This was essentially Leninist doctrine which was repeated in the USSR. Lenin's ideology was evil. 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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meshblorg
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Capitalism is the system

Capitalism is the system closest to our natural selves.  We are naturally self-interested and jealous creatures.  It's how we got to the top of the food chain.

 But don't think we are purely capitalist here in America.  We have many social programs from freeways to police to medicare/medicaid to the military.  I think we got a good balance here of capitalism and socialism.  HOwever America is the best country for rich people, europe is better for middle/lower classes for all the social programs they have there.


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meshblorg wrote: Capitalism

meshblorg wrote:
Capitalism is the system closest to our natural selves.  We are naturally self-interested and jealous creatures.  It's how we got to the top of the food chain.

That doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. In fact, capitalism is illogical and restrictive. We're already the top of the food chain.

meshblorg wrote:
But don't think we are purely capitalist here in America.  We have many social programs from freeways to police to medicare/medicaid to the military.  I think we got a good balance here of capitalism and socialism.  HOwever America is the best country for rich people, europe is better for middle/lower classes for all the social programs they have there.

Not all people in America are rich. And while there are some social structures, they are quite lacking for the lower class.

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meshblorg
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Well there is no better

Well there is no better country to be rich in than America.  This country was designed since it's creation to allow people to become crazy god damn rich, even if they started out poor.

 If you want to be like mediocre, middle class, or poor...it's best to move to Europe when you can.  The social programs over there are way great.  I mean fuck communism when you can live in sweden and like have basically everything paid for you in social benefits.

 Let America be what it was designed to be.  Drop that bullshit that will never work.  Do you think anyone will want to give up their wealth for the good of others? 

 NO

 It is contrary to human nature and logic.  It will never happen.  Communism is flawed logic. 

The only way you could have communism if you forced it on people, and they already tried that shit and it was worse than the Catholic Church itself.  True communism is impossible and would never last. 


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meshblorg wrote: Well

meshblorg wrote:

Well there is no better country to be rich in than America.  This country was designed since it's creation to allow people to become crazy god damn rich, even if they started out poor.

 If you want to be like mediocre, middle class, or poor...it's best to move to Europe when you can.  The social programs over there are way great.  I mean fuck communism when you can live in sweden and like have basically everything paid for you in social benefits.

 Let America be what it was designed to be.  Drop that bullshit that will never work.  Do you think anyone will want to give up their wealth for the good of others? 

 NO

 It is contrary to human nature and logic.  It will never happen.  Communism is flawed logic. 

The only way you could have communism if you forced it on people, and they already tried that shit and it was worse than the Catholic Church itself.  True communism is impossible and would never last. 

Noone has attempted to force communism on anyone. It's never existed. Period.

And your argument could be ascribed to monarchy in Britain 600 years ago. It has as much validity to it.

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meshblorg
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*takes a leak on karl marx*

*takes a leak on karl marx*


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*Joins you*

*Joins you*

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*aims to the side and

*aims to the side and crosses our streams*


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*Universe explodes, god

*Universe explodes, gods die*

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