Was Hitler an Atheist?

meshblorg
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Was Hitler an Atheist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-KWAwDJox4

 Watch^ I bet the Church doesn't want you to see this.

I'm not saying that he was evil because he was religious.  Stalin wasn't evil because he was atheist.  It's like saying Stalin and Mao were evil because they both had mustasches.  It's not like religion has went out of its way to stop killing throughout history (quite the opposite).  They were simply bad people.

HOWEVER this goes to disprove the ignorant assumption that Hitler was an atheist.  Hitler WAS NOT AN ATHEIST.  And as we all know, atheism is not evil.

“Religion,with or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion”—Steven Weinberg - Noble Prize winner

 --- 

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” – --- Adolf Hitler

 

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.”

-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933

 “I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be allowed to wage this battle for Germany.”

-- Adolf Hitler

"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany."

--Hermann Goering, a high level nazi speaking of Hitler

 

One important Nazi slogan was 'Kinder, Kirche, Kueche' ( Children, Church, Kitchen). Nazis used to award Iron Crosses for bravery.

Hitler also said 'Die zehn Gebote sind Ordnungsgesetze, die absolut lobenswert sind.' Which means:

'The Ten Commandments are laws for order, which are totally praiseworthy.'

Hitler detested atheism. He wrote 'In recent years things have gone so far that patriotic circles, in god-forsaken blindness of their religious strife, could not recognise the folly of their conduct even from the fact that atheist Marxist newspapers advocated the cause of one religious denomination or the other...' (Hitler's book Mein Kampf)

 


KevenJ
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I don't really know a lot of

I don't really know a lot of Christians who would say that Hitler did not believe in God. However, Hitler was most certainly not a Christian, though he may have claimed to be one.


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KevenJ wrote: I don't

KevenJ wrote:
I don't really know a lot of Christians who would say that Hitler did not believe in God. However, Hitler was most certainly not a Christian, though he may have claimed to be one.

 Because of all the killing and world domination and such, right? Tha's a #6.


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KevenJ wrote: I don't

KevenJ wrote:
I don't really know a lot of Christians who would say that Hitler did not believe in God. However, Hitler was most certainly not a Christian, though he may have claimed to be one.

"The last Christian died on the cross."
-- Nietzsche

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought


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I'll again make the same

I'll again make the same point I make against the christian response: "Hitler wasn't a christian" - Hitler's religious beliefs are moot. What matters are the religious beliefs of his followers, the german people, and whether he was calling upon a pre existent hatred of jews...

 

And he was. The most famous german theologian, Martin Luther, practically invented the holocaust:

Luther's Racism

The magazine Christian History, Issue 39, 1993 (published by Christianity Today) devoted a whole issue to Martin Luther's life and legacy. Pages 38-39 quote his work On the Jews and Their Lies which gives us an idea about how moral Luther's views were: "Set fire to their synagogues and schools. Jewish houses should be razed and destroyed, and Jewish prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, curing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them." Their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb." This is a man held to be a moral authority?! Luther also urged that "safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews," and that "all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them." What Jews could do was to have "a flail, an ax, a hole, a spade" put into their hands so "young, strong Jews and Jewesses" could "earn their bread in the sweat of their brow." Do you think any Fuhrer you may have heard of might have gleaned an idea or two from that last passage alone? In fact, think of Hitler while reading the next paragraph

Luther proposed seven measures of "sharp mercy" that German princes could take against Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the Jews' practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.

Is there no clearer blueprint for the Final Solution than the works of one of christianity's greatest reformers and moralists?

Worse yet, Luther was no paper philosopher - he advised clergy, their congregations, and all government officials to help carry out these measures. Since most Jews had been expelled from Germany before 1536, Luther's counsel was implemented by few officials. Yet a harsh anti-Jewish measure in 1543 mentioned Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies.

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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Here is what theists will

Here is what theists will not face.

They confuse issues. One topic is in regards to what an individual's thoughts are in their head. The other issue is how one person thinks another person should behaive.

There is no doubt that Hitler had religious thoughts and a belief in the super natural. Best estimates could call it a mix of paganism and Catholocism.

I do get tired of people equating him to being an atheist. If someone believes in a supreme power(by any name) they are not an atheist.

Hitler had a f-uped view of his thought of what his supreme power wanted. But that does not change that he himself thought he was doing the work of a supreme power.

Bin Ladin also believes in a supreme power. Other Muslims may say he is not a "true Muslim" which misses the point that Bin Ladin's thoughts on what he thinks "is" does not change.

Hitler did believe in a supreme power regardless of other's rejection of his views would not constitute him not having those thoughts at all.

Untill this "true Scottsman" fallacy is distroyed it will continue to allow ideology of political and religious labels to be used as a weapon against dissent.

That is not a "true liberal"

That is not a "true conservitive"

That is not a "true American"

That is not a "true atheist"

That is not a "true Muslim"

That is not a "true Christian"

Is all the same fallacy.

I am an American for one simple reason and one only. I was born in this Country. I have that in common with Christians and Jews born in this Country.

TO ALL THEISTS READING THIS. I am not advocating Hitler's behaivor. I thought he was a sick individual. I was merely pointing out that he DID believe in a supreme power. No one is suggesting that we like what he believed, far from it. I am merely using this post to state that he did regardless.

The point in this is to show, untill people get beyond labels and look at actions humanity will continue to burry its head in the sand and will prevent us from combating blind ideology and blind worship of gods or individuals that lead to tyrants like Hitler and Bin Laden.

We must be able to take into accout their words and take them seriously when they say, "My deity says" . Hitler talked about "God" all the time in his speaches. Even if we defaulted to him merely using it as lip service that still would not change the fact that his followers baught into it. Untill we face that we will not be able to prevent religious tyrany be it litteral believed or be it a tool of goverment opression. Either way the result is genocide. 

 

 

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I agree with you. People

I agree with you. People need to learn how to listen to what people say, analyze it, and make their own conclusions. Taking someone at their word is a dangerous endeavour as we have seen from history.

However, being a true Christian is not an ambiguous term. It's a falsifiable statement.

Jesus said,

"If you knew God, you would love me."

"If you love me, you will follow my commands."

"These are the greatest commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, strength, and soul; Love your neighbor as yourself."

"It is said, 'Love your friends and hate your enemies,' but I say to you, 'Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you.'"

 


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Actually doesn't

Actually doesn't Christianity say that everyone is a sinner - in other words nobody completely follows God's rules - therefore by your logic NOBODY is a True Christian!

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Matt, not that you're

Matt, not that you're really that interested or devoted, but the book of Romans deals with that.

I'll try to summarize in order to keep it relatively short. Without God, yes, everyone is a sinner, and therefore not a Christian. However, through faith in Christ, Christ exchanges his righteousness for your sinfulness. Even though a person may continue to sin after this exchange, that person is no longer a "sinner."

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

-Romans 7:18-20


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So why couldn't Hitler have

So why couldn't Hitler have been a Christian then - assuming he repented for what he did and truly trusted Jesus, etc (He felt exterminating Jews was continuing what Jesus started.)

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KevenJ wrote: I agree with

KevenJ wrote:

I agree with you. People need to learn how to listen to what people say, analyze it, and make their own conclusions. Taking someone at their word is a dangerous endeavour as we have seen from history.

However, being a true Christian is not an ambiguous term. It's a falsifiable statement.

Actually it can't be a falsifiable statement in this sense. If one is saved by grace, not works, then by definition you can't point to works as a causal agent. But this would be required for your falsifiable statement - a causal connection between works and 'being christian'

 

Being a christian involves only one thing: accepting jesus as the christ. Ergo, 'christianity' is only falsifiable in the sense that it is either true or false that one has accepted jesus as the christ. 


C. S. Lewis dealt with this problem best:

 "The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to 'the disciples', to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were 'far closer to the spirit of Christ' than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian."

 

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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MattShizzle wrote: Actually

MattShizzle wrote:
Actually doesn't Christianity say that everyone is a sinner - in other words nobody completely follows God's rules - therefore by your logic NOBODY is a True Christian!

 

Precisely. The  'true christian' argument is a No True Scotsman fallacy.... a 'true christian' is anyone who accepts jesus as the christ... morality can't even enter into it even potentially... unless you fall for the 'regenerated man' argument, but for that, you have to turn to Calvinism basically.....

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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Not this shit, again :(

Not this shit, again Sad

Are you guys actually arguing over what one of the greatest monsters of all time believed? How, exactly, does it matter concerning the actual truth of the question at hand? Is Scientology more viable because Tom Cruise supports it? Less viable for the same reason?

Oh, Hitler did and said such and such and may or may not have been this, so I raise you an Eric Rudolph or a Constantine or a Spanish Inquisition or witch trial or a Stalin or a Torquemada.......and we can all deny to the bitter fucking end that so and so had anything to do with what we believe. What's more, we can turn it around on the other guy and say so and so was ACTUALLY a Christian, or NOT a True Christian, on not technically an atheist, blah, blah, blah. I'm fucking sick of it.

Who gives a crap what such monsters with power do or what justifications they use for their atrocities? It's the sheep who fall in line and carry out their sadistic whims who are the the real monsters, IMO. We cannot shame any creed or ideology in such a case, the whole fucking human race is guilty. And they aren't guilty along easily and neatly divided lines. Propaganda, nationalism, ignorance, hate and fear make fools and murderers of the best of us and all of us - it really doesn't matter who or what sells it.

It's ultimately piss poor logic and asinine, pandering, piss poor argumentation, and I think deep down we all know that.

If Hitler was an atheist, it relfects in no way on the tennets or morallity of atheism - same goes if he were a Christian (I don't think he cared one way or the other, but he certainly was not above exploiting belief when it suited him). Ultimately belief or lack thereof had little to do with the mania or agenda this monster got people to carry out in lock step; dogma, desperation, fear, lust for power and propaganda did.

If Hitler was a Christian, would that make Christianity untrue or morally bankrupt - NO! If Stalin was an atheist, would that make atheism untennable or morallly backrupt - again, NO!

Can we please, please, stop bringging these fuckers up as if they were relevant to the discussion?

 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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I clearly stated that

I clearly stated that Hitler wasn't evil because of his christian beliefs.  However they were used in a way (just as Stalin used communism) to sway masses of people to commit horrible atrocities.

 Communsim and Religion have both been used to destroy humanity.


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meshblorg wrote: I clearly

meshblorg wrote:

I clearly stated that Hitler wasn't evil because of his christian beliefs.  However they were used in a way (just as Stalin used communism) to sway masses of people to commit horrible atrocities.

 Communsim and Religion have both been used to destroy humanity.

Communism is an economic practice, and cannot be responsible for death. You speak of a dictatorship that turned the state into god.

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I would like to pry, Just

I would like to pry, Just who is anyone to declare whether or not Hitler was a Christian? If hitler believed in Christ - he was a Christian - plain and simple as that.

 

That does not necessarily mean it was Christianity that made him evil. It certainly didn't help make him any less evil - as it was the main instrument behind his anti-semitism.

 

On the flipside - take Stalin. He WAS an Atheist. I absolutely condemn what Stalin has done - but this in no manner makes him any less of an Atheist.

 

Have there been "true atheists" whom have committed atrocities against the world? oh yes - there have been - and Hitler was NOT one of them.

 

Have there been "true Christians" whom have committed atrocities against the world? whew - oh yes - much much more of them - and Hitler WAS one of them!

 

Would you ever accpet a Muslim telling you Osama bin Laden isn't a "true Muslim"? I never would! Osama bin Laden is a hardcore Allah-whore. He IS a Muslim - whether or not another Muslim agrees with his atrocities.


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Communism is an impossible

Communism is an impossible economic practice for large countries.  It would only work in a family or small farming community type of setting.

 The USSR practiced state capitalism rather than communism.  We just call it communism because that's what the bolshevik's were pretending to create.


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NarcolepticSun wrote: I

NarcolepticSun wrote:

I would like to pry, Just who is anyone to declare whether or not Hitler was a Christian? If hitler believed in Christ - he was a Christian - plain and simple as that.

 

That does not necessarily mean it was Christianity that made him evil. It certainly didn't help make him any less evil - as it was the main instrument behind his anti-semitism.

Yes. But again, the real issue is that millions of Germans were ready to follow him, because Luther's church inculcated anti semitism to extreme levels.

 

Quote:
 

On the flipside - take Stalin. He WAS an Atheist. I absolutely condemn what Stalin has done - but this in no manner makes him any less of an Atheist.

 

Have there been "true atheists" whom have committed atrocities against the world? oh yes 

Again, what matters is whether or not his atheism was the cause of his actions. 

Neither christianity nor atheism is a cause, in of itself, is a sufficient cause..... what you need is commitment to violence and a dogmatic adherence to that committment... and religion inculcates dogmatic adherence to beliefs... atheism does not.

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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meshblorg wrote: Communism

meshblorg wrote:
Communism is an impossible economic practice for large countries.  It would only work in a family or small farming community type of setting.

There is nothing to suggest it couldn't work even globally.
A few minor modifications would be necessary, but the core idea is sound.

meshblorg wrote:
The USSR practiced state capitalism rather than communism.  We just call it communism because that's what the bolshevik's were pretending to create.

I agree. I am merely tired of so many americans declaring communism as a threat when communism has never existed.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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It can't exist because it's

It can't exist because it's contrary to our nature of self-interest.  Being a self-interested selfish creature that desires power over others is why we're on top of the food chain and why all large societies have a hierarchy.  There's everything to suggest that it wouldn't work globally. 

Absolute power corrupts absolutely and human error and selfishness are too strong too be overcome by some utopian ideology.

I already said this in an earlier comment. 

 I consider communist parties to be worse than religious radicals.


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meshblorg wrote: It can't

meshblorg wrote:
It can't exist because it's contrary to our nature of self-interest.

Not necessarily.

meshblorg wrote:
  Being a self-interested selfish creature that desires power over others is why we're on top of the food chain and why all large societies have a hierarchy.

That doesn't mean it's the best or the only way we can exist. There's no reason to stop evolving just because we're the top of the food chain.

meshblorg wrote:
  There's everything to suggest that it wouldn't work globally.

Not one single thing.

meshblorg wrote:
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and human error and selfishness are too strong too be overcome by some utopian ideology.

True enough(as far as history suggests at least), but communism isn't a dicatorship. Communism is an economic process. Nothing more. There's absolutely nothing to say that a communist economy could not exist within a democracy. In fact, communism is the only economic process that works perfectly with a democracy. It enforces the democracy as the democracy enforces the communism. A perfect match. A capitalist economy fights democracy, as the rich band together to outvote the poor with disinformation and blurred lines. The democracy fights the capitalism, since democracy is based on equality and capitalism is based on monarchial rules.

meshblorg wrote:
I already said this in an earlier comment. I consider communist parties to be worse than religious radicals.

You obviously have a twisted view on communism and/or it's potential.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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C'mon, everyone knows that

C'mon, everyone knows that Hitler was an Atheist, he just wasn't a true Atheist because he believed in god.

 I have no reason to conclude that Stalin was an Atheist either.  The guy went to seminary then like hundreds of thousands of other Russian Orthodox he joined the Communist movement.


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I thought he quite clearly

I thought he quite clearly denounced a supernatural being.  He was more of a God than any other god believed on earth.