He mustn't have been a very strong atheist if he was convinced by that.

Well, we all will be waiting a long time for that to happen!

Mr. Collins received an invitation to join us on the show and his publicist refused, claiming he doesn't do many speaking engagements because of his health.

Yeah, that's strange. My uncle was a large part of the Human Genome Project, but I don't recall HIM ever converting.

i always shit my pants just a little, just a bit, in a rich melange of consternation, flabbergastation, amusement, and a tad of pity, when the danger-zombies launch their little statistics as some sort of supporting argument for their side. i realize i tend to get a bit more emotional about things like this than most of you, but i'm reluctant to apologize for it because i don't find it irrational to say STATISTICIANS ARE NOT MOTHER FUCKING SCIENTISTS. SHIT!!!! QUEEF!!!!
*phew* any statistic can play for either side of any debate; it can be trumped to either side depending on which variables you choose to include in the *ahem* "study". furthermore, no statistical study can possibly account for every variable applicable to the situation.
i plan on writing at length on this topic soon, so i'll save the drudgery for now, but the most common example i use are crime statistics. most cities are wont to use crime statistics to judge the effectiveness of police forces, their suitability for inhabitation, yada-yada-yada, but stop right there. on a yearly basis, more and more things become illegal through legislation. so wouldn't it stand to reason that the crime rate would rise every time something new becomes illegal?
if a law came to pass that breathing was an unlawful act, would the crime rate not rise to 100%?
conversely, if every single law were repealed, would that same crime rate not instantaneously drop to 0%?
fucking hell. whatever. i've gone off the main topic again. for that i will apologize.

Fear out.

Yeah, did you have a point, benjy?

I see. So he has no point then.

There is no evidence for God or the supernatural.

If he was convinced by C.S. Lewis, he certainly wasn't convinced by empirical evidence, which is what science deals with.

LOL

He "snapped" because he felt the power of God

*special thanks to "positive change"!

ha ha. oh i see. so he felt the power of god from C.S. Lewis, but not from the book god supposedly wrote himself..the bible. mmhmm. i think that keeps the word snapped safely outside the jurisdiction of your cynical quotation marks.

no, i don't mean he felt the power of God from that particular book. But perhaps God used it to reach him.

what about healings? I've heard of plenty of healings that have happened that the doctors could not explain.

Let's see a little proof.

Let's see a lot of proof.

healings, speaking in other languages ( in which i have heard of accounts where the person speaking it would be speaking a foreign language of someone in the room and the other person would actually understand it.)
I have also heard accounts of people being raised from the dead.

.....And the bible tells of these things as evidence and the power of having the spirit of God living within you.

Show me a SCIENTIFICALLY confirmed account.

You have to be in the right place (spiritually) with God for prayer to work.

You're right if you mean that any old joe blow's prayer doesn't work.
God does not answer prayers of the unrighteous.

Oh, and these weren't any old Joe's prayers, if you'd actually take the time to read the article I posted:

Wow. Just. Wow.

Get this kid to come on the show. He needs help.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus

Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1} This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here "bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."{6} While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7} How else might one explain that?
Evidence from Pliny the Younger

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9}

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10}

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."{11} If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."{12} This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."{13} The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.
Evidence from Josephus

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}

As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}

Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19}

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}

Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua" is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.{22} So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.{23} If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24}

The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."{25} But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.{26} Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.
Evidence from Lucian

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

Notes

1. F. F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974), 13.

2. Ibid.

3. Ibid.

4. Edwin Yamauchi, quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1998), 82.

5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

6. N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale, 1969), 19, cited in Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Missouri: College Press Publishing Company, 1996), 189-190.

7. Edwin Yamauchi, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

8. Pliny, Epistles x. 96, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 25; Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 198.

9. Ibid., 27.

10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

11. M. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors," in Gospel Perspectives V, 354-55, cited in E. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament: What is the Evidence?", in Jesus Under Fire, ed. by Michael J. Wilkins and J.P. Moreland (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1995), p. 227, note 66.

12. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

13. Bruce, Christian Origins, 28.

14. Josephus, Antiquities xx. 200, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 36.

15. Ibid.

16. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

17. Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

18. Ibid.

19. Although time would not permit me to mention it on the radio, another version of Josephus' "Testimonium Flavianum" survives in a tenth-century Arabic version (Bruce, Christian Origins, 41). In 1971, Professor Schlomo Pines published a study on this passage. The passage is interesting because it lacks most of the questionable elements that many scholars believe to be Christian interpolations. Indeed, "as Schlomo Pines and David Flusser...stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text, especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by the church" (Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194). The passage reads as follows: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Quoted in James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988), 95, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194).

20. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03.

21. The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, 281, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

22. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

23. See John 8:58-59 and 10:31-33.

24. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 204. See also John 18:31-32.

25. Matt. 12:24. I gleaned this observation from Bruce, Christian Origins, 56.

26. Luke 23:2, 5.

27. Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.

sapient said: The execution of a Nazareth carpenter would have been one of the most insignificant events conceivable among the movements of Roman history in those decades

but you also said that because of Jesus' miracles, that it would have been so extraordinary that it would have been written. The truth is that the gospels is a historical account of it along with the mentions of the secular ones.

Also, if Jesus doesn't exist, then why do you also have an article saying that jesus walked on ice, not water? if he didn't exist then there's no reason to say he didn't walk on water. Obviously the guy with that theory doesn't doubt Jesus' existence but only the supernatural Jesus.

You know, I can accept if you choose not to believe in the supernatural Jesus but it bothers me that you try to undermine Jesus the man. History has recorded Jesus.

This article is about examining scientific evidence. Have you got any, benjy?

Before you anwer, consider this:

MORE ABOUT THE ARGUMENTS OF COLLINS:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/francis_collins_doofus_for_the.php#more

Francis Collins, doofus for the Lord

Category: Godlessness ? Science
Posted on: July 26, 2006 7:56 PM, by PZ Myers

I just watched the Francis Collins/Charlie Rose interview (it starts at about 35 minutes on that clip), and although I struggled manfully to appreciate the fellow's accomplishments and status in science, I failed. All I could see is that he was illogical, irrational, and downright goofy?all the symptoms of a severe affliction with a bad case of religion. That video ought to be a warning to scientists: even a prestigious scientist can suffer Christian mind-rot.

He started by telling us about his godless youth, when atheism meant he "wasn't responsible to anyone but me." Barely a few minutes into the interview, and he'd already said something stupid: no, that's not what atheism means. Atheists are responsible members of their community, and care just as much for others as the most devout believers. He might have been shallow and selfish, but that does not mean that all atheists are.

Then we got his conversion story. He was doing medical work in the South, and he experienced first-hand that "good North Carolina people were afflicted with terrible diseases that they'd done nothing to bring down upon themselves," and they were dying, and they were all religious, and these good people faced death with serenity and courage. Meanwhile, all the dying atheists were running around in circles, screaming for their mommies, crapping their pants and making embarrassments of themselves.

Oh, wait?that last bit? He didn't say it. He must have been thinking it, though, because otherwise why would the calm acceptance of dying Christians impress him at all? I suspect that dying atheists are just as dignified as dying Christians, myself?finding strength in the face of despair is something people do, not just members of specific cults, so Collins drew an invalid conclusion by associating that strength with their religion. Since they were all North Carolinians, he might just as legitimately have concluded that South Carolinians, Canadians, and Australians must all also lack that special spark that coming from that particular state confers.

From that flawed emotional argument, he then claims to have considered faith rationally, from the perspective of a scientist, and evaluated the evidence, and come to the conclusion that there is a god. What evidence, you might ask? He doesn't give any. He says he read Mere Christianity, that glib and extraordinarily shallow bit of hokum from C.S. Lewis. He does this several times in the interview, telling us that science and evidence led him to his faith, but when push comes to shove, he just dangles some pathetic bit of irrelevant nonsense in front of us and runs away from any evidence.

For instance, another of his rationales is that evolution doesn't explain where "moral law" comes from, which he claims is universal. He seems to think it requires some supernatural agent to infuse us with altruism, because otherwise there is no explanation for why we would be kind to strangers. I think, though, that that kindness to strangers is not universal at all, but more a function of a general prosperity that allows us to be generous, and a generalized empathy and social sense of reciprocity. For all of his defense of evolution, when he claims that complex behaviors with indirect or accidental properties cannot arise from it, he is perpetuating a simple-minded creationist caricature of how evolution works.

His arguments do not get any better as the interview goes on. They get worse.

He claims that "faith is the most rational of all choices," and gives a peculiar demonstration that I'll paraphrase. Imagine a table top represents the sum of all human knowledge. Now mark off the part that represents what you know?it would be a tiny circle. Now ask, where is the knowledge of the existence of god. Isn't it irrational to assume that it falls within your tiny circle, when there is so much you don't know?

This isn't just an argument from ignorance, it's an argument for ignorance. You can argue for anything with that excuse: Bigfoot, UFOs, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, Jesus, green bug-eyed Martians, that PZ Myers has a completely different genome from what Francis Collins sequenced. What he is doing is playing a disingenuous game, pushing his god question off into the gaps in what we know, and at the same time implying that this all-powerful cosmic being that created and maintains the universe does not in any way impinge on our teeny-tiny circle of knowledge. If it's not dishonest, it's stupid.

Then, in his next breath, he completely undercuts his own argument. He claims that within our circle of knowledge is evidence of the existence of some supernatural being. So, he wants to argue away the atheists by saying they can't know, and the evidence is out there somewhere?just not in our circle. At the same time, though, he says that that knowledge is here in our circle, and that's why he believes. Again, though, he doesn't say what this evidence is. He's a scientist, trust him.

Rose gently hammered on him a little bit, showing a clip of a prior interview with Richard Dawkins in which he protests that faith is a false shortcut that teaches people, and especially children, to suspend their facilities for critical thinking and believe without evidence. Once again, Collins does his patented two-faced double back-flip. He agrees with Dawkins that we should teach people to seek the evidence, explains vaguely that his faith is supported by the evidence, and then turns around and argues that science is incomplete and only finds evidence of natural phenomena, but cannot detect the supernatural. In other words, evidence is great, and he has evidence, only he can't show it to us, and it's not scientific evidence?it's not the same kind of thing Dawkins was talking about at all.

I always wonder, what kind of evidence is not scientific? There's nothing magical about the word "scientific"?it just means testable, weighable, observable evidence that has some empirical and logical weight, you know. By saying his evidence isn't scientific, he's really admitting that he's got no evidence at all.

The subtitle for his new book is "A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief." Truth in advertising ought to compel him to admit that his definition of "evidence" is something peculiar and non-standard, and that since he is saying it is removed from scientific evaluation, his credentials as a scientist are utterly meaningless in this context.

I'm going to have to read that awful book sometime, and I'm not looking forward to it. It sounds like it's going to be equivalent to Ann Coulter's crap, with the hate stripped out but the same vacuous airheaded twaddle inside.

Agreed.

I do feel sorry for him. How he bought some of the dumbest arguments theists have to offer is ridiculous. I actually watched the interview. I think I'll isolate sound clips from the interview and we can have him on the show in "spirit."

P.S. He looked great, healthwise.

A recent study at Harvard - by a theist LOOKING to show the power of prayer - fell flat:
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Not this shit again.

We've discussed it pretty in depth. He has no actual evidence, I think he's lost his mind.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=755&start=0