Are Atheists intellectuals or just burned by the Church?

brand0n
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Are Atheists intellectuals or just burned by the Church?

Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.


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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.

I am an atheist. I do not hate any god as I see no reason to think any god exists. I also have no reason to be mad at Jesus, a church, a pastor, or anyone else as I have never had any belief in any god and never attended any church. I am an atheist because belief in a god is not only an unsupported faith based belief (which I believe to be a very bad thing for anyone to make a habit of having), but as far as I am aware, basically non-sensical.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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Well, for starters, the

Well, for starters, the Church hasn't "burned" me as I wasn't raised a Christian. I was brought up a religious jew and have become an Atheist within the last 2 years.
There are no scientific, logical, or any other reasons to believe that there exists any of the Gods that have been claimed to be existent over the centuries of human existence.
I have no traumatic experiences that would cause me to "turn from God", and even if I did that would do nothing to the validity of the stance of Atheism. One's arguments is to be taken on the merit of the arguments alone and NOT on the lifestyle, personality, or any other character trait they may exemplify.
Furthermore, Atheists do NOT hate God as they don't believe that God exists. They may (myself included) hate the notion of many of the Gods (the Judao-Christian God in particular), but once again that does nothing in regards to leveling the validity of the Atheist's arguments against God's existence.


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brand0n wrote: Tell me

brand0n wrote:
Tell me what you think.

I appreciate the fact that you realize that we "looked better" than Kirk and Ray, but as far as what I think about the rest of your post...I think my head just exploded. Puhleaze. 


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Doesn't make sense to hate

Doesn't make sense to hate things that don't exist. And most of us aren't atheists because of a negative experience:

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I don't hate god because I

I don't hate god because I don't believe he, she, or it doesn't exist.

There was never one person that turned me away from god.

Yes I think you are full of crap Smiling  (you asked!)  Not so much you, but delusional beliefs in general.

And I can't speak for the other atheists you talked to that were angry...  but maybe they were a bit frustrated by having person after person implying that they had bad morals, were going to go to hell, etc... 

 


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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.

Does this mean we can go off on your text formatting? No indents, no paragraphs?

brand0n wrote:
I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs.

There are no 'atheist beliefs', just one thing, a LACK of belief in a god.

brand0n wrote:
When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.

Ummm.... why are you debating homosexuals, why throw that into the mix? Someone preferring the same sex is something to debate?

brand0n wrote:
Not a great advertisement for your point of view.

Yet, you still came here and posted.

brand0n wrote:
But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture.

Well, okay. Not really the point of the debae though.

brand0n wrote:
My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.

Hate what isn't there huh?

Do you believe in bigfoot? If you answer "no" then you need to ask yourself why you hate bigfoot.

brand0n wrote:
If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed.

This sounds like projection.

brand0n wrote:
Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?

More projection.

brand0n wrote:
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.

I do.

brand0n wrote:
But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself.

Again with the homosexuals, what did they do to you?

If you really had atheist friends you would know they just lack belief in a god.

brand0n wrote:
I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met.

I would bet that is true.

brand0n wrote:
But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.

I think.... 


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 I am just as angry with

 I am just as angry with god as you are angry with the creator of god. 

Sounds made up...
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I think the subject for your

I think the subject for your post is offensive and rude. Why must you come here with your assumptions and subtle insults towards an atheist's intelligence? If you have a question, then ask it. If you have an insult, kindly keep it to yourself.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

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Are you angry at the tooth

Are you angry at the tooth fairy? Are you angry at Thor?


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If you're asking me Matt,

If you're asking me Matt, I'm frustrated with brand0n. Eye-wink


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brand0n wrote: If you

brand0n wrote:
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.

Hi. This is me, letting you know, I think you're full of crap, at least so far. Especially when you lump atheists together with all the other main Christian targets of persecution (homosexuals, agnostics, liberals, ...). I know how uneasy it must be for you to know that Jesus isn't obvious to everybody, and it would be so soothing to come up with some rationalization that would allow you to understand those people as just being mad at god or something, but it just isn't like that.

Look, I've been a Christian, and my experiences with Christians and church were overwhelmingly ranging from positive to neutral, sometimes just boring. Lots of the people I care about are Christians, and I don't consider them bad, or even stupid.

I left Christianity because it isn't true. It's really just that simple.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.

Grammar and spelling don't concern me unless it's so bad I can't understand what someone is saying. Logic on the other hand, is the only correct way to argue. So pointing out logical misteps is necessary.

brand0n wrote:
I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs.

You have made an error. Atheists by definition have no beliefs as a group.

brand0n wrote:
When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.

When I read this line I can't help but thing of all the religious nuts calling people they don't like "liberals" or "homosexuals" or what have you. You should accept the fact that everyone is human, just like yourself. Get down off your pedastel, you are no better than anyone else.

brand0n wrote:
Not a great advertisement for your point of view.

I disagree.

brand0n wrote:
But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.

You are wrong. It is impossible to hate something that does not exist.

brand0n wrote:
If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed.

I never believed a god existed. What do you say to that? I've never believed in god from the moment I was born until today. I've never belonged to any religion or other cult.

brand0n wrote:
I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed.

That's not what they are doing.

brand0n wrote:
Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?

This is an insulting and brainless question to ask. If you think people here have turned from your false god because of emotion, think again. It's quite the opposite.

brand0n wrote:
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.

You are.

brand0n wrote:
But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself.

Obviously that cannot apply to me. I don't hate your jesus and I don't hate your god. I don't believe they exist, or ever did exist. How can I hate something that doesn't exist?

brand0n wrote:
I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met.

While you pray for me, I'll think for you. But I also wouldn't have a problem sitting down for a coffee together.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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SIDE POINT: I was under the

SIDE POINT: I was under the impression that the church was molesting children, not burning them.....


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brand0 wrote: Before you

brand0 wrote:

Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.

That would be your first and only correct analysis in the entire paragraph. Congratulations.

 

brand0n wrote:

When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.

What does someone's sexual orientation or political leaning have to do with anything? Its a non sequiter. Someone's  political leaning has no bearing on  their atheism. An atheist can be left, right, center, it does not matter. And what of sexual orientation? 

It seems you are lumping "atheists and agnostics" together with "liberals", and then for good measure, to show what an intolerant bigot you are, you add sexual orientation. You continue to demonstrate ignorance by making an appalling fallacy of equivocation, an absurd non sequiter, which has no bearing on the subject.

brand0n wrote:

 But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray.

Your second correct analysis. I must retract my first point.

 

brand0n wrote:

 . My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.

I actually felt vomit in the corners of my mouth reading this, you are so uneducated and ignorant. First of all

a) The fact that you cannot see the logical fallacy in the statement "an atheist/agnostic" hates God, means that you have a nonexistent grasp of logic, which you wildly understated in your first paragraph Please explain carefully how it logically follows from "I don't believe X exists" to "I hate X". The two statements are mutually contradictory, and the fact that you cannot see that is utterly pathetic.

b) Again, you bring up political leaning, which is a non sequiter. your arguments are so riddled with logical fallacies that it looks like a piece of swiss cheese that was used for target practice. The fact that you equate "liberal" with "atheist" shows how ignorant you are. Because of the poor wording of your argument I could not tell whether you were implying either of the following scenarios:

1: All Atheists Are liberal

Which is a non sequiter. I, for instance, am a centrist. Lack of religious beleif has no effect on political leaning

2: All Liberals are atheists

Which again is not true, and if it is was the second one you implied, I feel even more sorry for your brain.

I also spotted this shameless equivocation:

3: Someone who calls themself a liberal hates God

I have no idea where you got this from, but you directly implied it in your ignorant paragraph. I already explained that it is a non sequiter to extrapolate someone's religious beleif/lack thereof from their political leaning, and it is also a non sequiter to insist that atheist is equivocated with "hating God". Put the two together, and it shows how bigoted and stereotyping your views are.

 

brand0n wrote:

If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed.

By demonstrating your ignorance over and over again, without shame, you hand ammunition to me. You have no evidence to support your absurd notion, and as such you are making up a logical fallacy of false correlative. If you are interested, I am atheist because I am a scientist, who beleives in using reason and logic to find out the truth.

I know you may find this hard to believe, but I was never fucked in the ass by a priest.

 

brand0n wrote:

Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?

1. I actually cried with laughter reading this, because

a) It's an Argument from pity, a terrible informal fallacy of false consequence. There is absolutely no evidence to support what you are saying. Do you realie this? None. Zero. You are extrapolating personal beleifs about a subject you clearly know nothing about into assumptions about people you have never met. Your ignorance of all things makes me, quite frankly, frightened.

b) Telling an atheist Jesus loves him is somewhat of a losing battle. Most atheists, myself among, are rationalists, who believe in using reason and logic, not faith. So, we need evidence that Jesus loves us before we can accept this claim.

And again, I'm going to reveal to you a secret you may find very hard to believe. I was never fingered by the pastor, and my parents never hit me? Amazing, huh? {In case your intelligence cannot grasp the following sentence, it is sarcasm] How can I be an atheist if I was never fucked as a little boy or beaten by drunk dad? WHAAT! You mean it was reason and logic that drove me to my belief that God is non-existent. But how can that be? Absurd! I won't believe it!

You've arrived at preconcieved conclusions based on ignorant prejudice. I can see why all the atheists, agnostics, would be rude to you during debate. You're incredibly bigoted. 

 

brand0n wrote:

If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.

You're overflowing. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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I've seen the light! I know

I've seen the light! I know now that God really exists and loves me. Please, tell me more. I wish to know more about God.

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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.

If you were perfect, we'd have zero reason to critisize you. You have zero reason for even pointing this out. Someone "not being perfect" has yet to stop me from ripping on them, so away we go...
brand0n wrote:
I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view.

Brian and Kelly are not the Pope and Popess of atheism. They lack a belief in god and yes, there are a number of beliefs that are commonly derived from that, but ultimately they speak for themselves. There are no "atheistic beliefs" that could not be held by any number of different types of people (ex., many Christians believe in evolution). The only defining factor we have in common is a LACK of a belief. On an unrelated note, I'd be interested to know on what points you were debating homosexuals.
brand0n wrote:
But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture.

The fuck is that supposed to mean?
brand0n wrote:
My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.

I went to church every Sunday for sixteen years and never had a negative experience. I could say roughly the same for most atheists I know. Furthermore, none of those types of people "hate" God, and I know a LOT of very liberal Christians. Have you done any research into anything ever? Do you leave your house often? I don't want to be too upfront, but Jesus Cuntpunching Christ, you've said some ignorant stuff so far.
brand0n wrote:
If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?

You would love it if they told you your bullshit loaded question was correct, wouldn't you? It would excuse you from having to come up with real arguments for your invisible friend if Brian or Kelly had a run in with a God-fearing kidtoucher, wouldn't it? You have to make these assertions in order to rationalize their position to yourself. Is the idea that some people are simply unsatsified with groundless appeals to the supernatural that repulsive to you?
brand0n wrote:
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.[/qoute]
You are so full of crap you'd probably petrify if you stayed out in the yard too long.
brand0n wrote:
But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends

Why do you insist on lumping these people together?
brand0n wrote:
who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself.

Your friends probably talk about you when you're not around.
brand0n wrote:
I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America.

You care so much you took no time whatsoever to learn the first thing about what they believe.
brand0n wrote:
Tell me what you think.

I think you are a repulsive human being. Luckily, I'm not a predeterminist, and I believe you can change your nature. Please educate yourself.


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I'm not angry at God. I

I'm not angry at God. I don't believe God exists, I never really did even when I was trying to be Christian, even then I went to a very liberal church with no dogma, no expectation on me to believe and it was full of nice, caring people, they certainly didn't burn me, hurt me, molest me in anyway.

You seem to me to be very narrow minded, shallow and rude. I reckon you should probably learn some manners, and learn not to generalise, we are not sheep, we are human beings, all individuals! I try to show everybody respect and courtesy unless of course they insult me or extremely annoy me. I hope you stick around here so you can learn about us, learn not to judge us, and perhaps deal with a few home truths.


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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.
If that's so, then it's quite obvious that you hate your parents, hate yourself, and have serious sexual identity problems due to the fact that you don't believe in Vishnu or Allah, and have issues with homosexuality. Go ahead and open your heart, and maybe you can then be a good person and stop being so angry at yourself, Vishnu, Allah, and homosexuals.


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Here in Holland 40% of the

Here in Holland 40% of the population is non-religious. A lot of people of my age and younger grew up without a believe. So they didn't stop believing in god because they were burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations, they never went to church or believed in a God in the first place. They are atheist because they were not taught to be theists.

You are reasoning from a situation where religious people are probably a great majority. I remember your way of thinking from when I grew up in a fairly closed religious niche in Holland. God is probably such a big part of your reality, that you can not even accept a possible reality without a God. If you say atheists deny god, because they hate him, you deny their denial. Because hate for God implies believe in God. Atheists lack that believe (hence the name).


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deludedgod wrote:

deludedgod wrote:

brand0n wrote:

When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.

What does someone's sexual orientation or political leaning have to do with anything? Its a non sequiter. Someone's political leaning has no bearing on their atheism. An atheist can be left, right, center, it does not matter. And what of sexual orientation?

deludedgod, you are a brilliant--friggin' brilliant!!!!--molecular biologist. Your scientific posts totally blow me away. But because I am a spelling nazi, I thought I'd point out a couple of errors I often see in your posts. It's "non sequitur," not "non sequiter"; "ad hominem" not "ad hominid." I think an ad hominid argument would be--what?--argument from bipedal, upright primates? Eye-wink

(Whenever I use quotes I feel a little weird because I like the British rule better, but use the American rule I was taught by my last prof. Maybe I should just use the British rule because it makes more sense...hmmmm...)

deludedgod wrote:

And again, I'm going to reveal to you a secret you may find very hard to believe. I was never fingered by the pastor, and my parents never hit me?

You know, it's weird, but I was "fingered" by a member of my church and my father did hit me. I feel insulted that Brand0n is making light of my experiences by telling me that those reasons and those reasons alone led to my becoming an atheist. Sigh.

Apart from the issue of god's existence (or lack thereof), religion causes many evils. My father hit me because he bought into the verse about not sparing the rod. He was also a very angry man.

Churches are havens for pedophiles because conservative churches emphasize obeying authority figures. Pedophiles know this. They will often prey on the most religious children because they know those children will obey without question. This is what happened to me.

Many years ago in a town about an hour and a half from where I live, Kenneth Parnell abducted little Steven Stayner and kept him as a sexual slave for seven years. He targeted Steve because he'd heard Steve's parents were strict and very religious. When Kenneth Parnell approached Steven, he gained the boy's confidence by telling him, "I'm a pastor."

I'm not even going to speculate about why Cary Stayner turned out the way he did, growing up in such a religious family.

And isn't it odd? I'm also rather liberal. But I'm not gay. I guess you struck out there, eh, slick?

While my experiences in the right-wing fundamentalist churches did cause a lot of pain, I ultimately rejected the idea of god because it is illogical. This illogical belief causes a lot of strife. Little kids get hurt. Just teaching them hell is real is child abuse. Add in sexual and physical abuse and of course these kids are going to be angry with an institution that fostered such abuse!!! Add in the little detail that it was all done in the name of a LIE and sure, you're going to get some angry atheists. Justifiably angry atheists.

You're looking at the whole thing backward. Because god isn't real and because horrible things are done to children in the name of this non-existent god, children raised in such unhealthy situations are going to grow up to be angry atheists. Just because I'm angry doesn't mean I'm not right.

As for god, yeah, I'm angry at him. That fucker! Why did he have to go and not exist on me like that! Next time I see him I'm going to kick his non-existent ass.

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Folks, I think this was a

Folks, I think this was a hit and run or drive-by proselytization attempt. Smiling


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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Folks, I think this was a hit and run or drive-by proselytization attempt. Smiling

Agreed!  


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I was burned by the church

I was burned by the church and I'm still a theist. So your atheist thesis is suspiciously specious, this theist insists.


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wavefreak wrote: I was

wavefreak wrote:
I was burned by the church and I'm still a theist. So your atheist thesis is suspiciously specious, this theist insists.

Great alliteration! LOL! 


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wavefreak wrote: I was

wavefreak wrote:
I was burned by the church and I'm still a theist. So your atheist thesis is suspiciously specious, this theist insists.

Seuss himself would have trouble doing better than that.

-Triften 


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triften wrote: wavefreak

triften wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
I was burned by the church and I'm still a theist. So your atheist thesis is suspiciously specious, this theist insists.

Seuss himself would have trouble doing better than that.

-Triften

 

I LOVE Dr. Suess. Pure joy in his books. Laughing


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brand0n wrote: If you

brand0n wrote:
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.

I think you're full of crap.  Welcome to the board! 

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brand0n wrote: When I saw

brand0n wrote:
When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view.

 

I wanted to say on this part of your post. I believe you are projecting. You where the angry one not the people who where debating.  It's seems very odd a decent chunk of theists seem to know angry atheists, yet i've only met some of the nicest people who where atheists. I myself am a very carying person.  So next time you wish to say atheists are angry maybe you should look in the mirror?


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Hmm... another drive by.

Hmm... another drive by.


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The Patrician wrote: Hmm...

The Patrician wrote:
Hmm... another drive by.

 

I suppose there was to much logic for him. 


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brand0n wrote: Before you

brand0n wrote:
Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.
I would, but it seems you'll never see it. So, yeah.

Magus wrote:
I am just as angry with god as you are angry with the creator of god.
I am SO using this one. Thanks Magus!

wavefreak wrote:
I was burned by the church and I'm still a theist. So your atheist thesis is suspiciously specious, this theist insists.
This is why we need a reputation system. 


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I have to seriously

I have to seriously question whether or not you actually have atheist, liberal or homosexual friends, since you opinion of them isn't very positive. 

Your god and church have never burned me.  I never believed in the first and never went to the latter. 

Perhaps the reason you think all atheists are angry is because they're actually angry at you for spewing all your ignorant nonsense towards them. 

I think you're full of crap and that you really should try to learn a little before you lay down you're opinion. 

Sadly, I highly doubt you'll even come back here to actually defend yourself.  Typical, really.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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The worst thing church ever

The worst thing church ever did to me was bore me. I did get some much needed exercise though (stand, kneel, sit, kneel, stand, kneel, repeat.)

 well that and the hyms to which the words and music were obviously written in complete isolation from eachother then haphazardly stuck together. Only in church have I head a complete sentence try to be sung in the last short note of a verse.... but I guess it's still better than anything produced by Avril Lavigne (or whoever you young'uns  listen to now... I'm only 25 and already don't get modern pop).

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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The Patrician wrote: Hmm...

The Patrician wrote:
Hmm... another drive by.


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Can I prove to you God exists?

To prove that God exists I will prophesy about something in your life. You love baseball and basketball.  Just kidding.  I read a comment that you made later in where you talked about the church molesting children.  Even though I don't disagree that certain pastors or priests have molested children I believe you some what proved my point by showing your disapproval (not hatred, because I got crucified for using that word about God) for the church.  Why do you say that the Church molests children when I have been apart of many churches and have not heard of any molestation.  But I have had friends that have had uncles or fathers molest them.  It is comments like that, that make me wonder if aetheist don't believe God exists because they have met some dumb Christians (they do exist, I may be one of them : ))


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I wrote my last comment to AtheistaviB

Sorry for spelling Atheist wrong so many times. 


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My last comment was for AtheistAviB

My comment about the prophesy was to AtheistAviB


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Hey piriahjane

Well piriahjane I came back.  You didn't believe I would and I did.  Do you now believe in God j/k.  Trust me my wife and I worked in the coffee business on Hawthorne in Portland, OR, which is completely inhabited by atheists, homosexuals and liberals.  I have to admit that before working there and becoming close friends with many of them I did look at them and assumed a lot of things that weren't true.  I learned to listen, think and love.  There is some hope for us narrow-minded, idiotic, prejudice Christians : ).  I assumed you were angry, you assumed I was lying.  We're even.  I just want to understand atheist beliefs more so that it can give me a greater conviction for why I serve God.  I truly do respect you all even though I might say some things that don't come across like that.  I guess I am learning how to be tactful. 


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Hey kellym78

Hey kellym78.  thanks for responding.  I am a total dork.  I got all gitty and yelled for my wife to come over and see your post.  You're a TV star : )  I guess I should have asked the question how did you become an atheist rather than assume that your story is the same as some of my friends stories.  If you would be so kind to tell me your journey in a nutshell of how you became so convinced that God doesn't exist I would appreciate it.  With all do respect because I am getting destroyed on this thread, if you are mad at a God that doesn't exist how do you explain your comment on the show when you said, "even if God did exist I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with a tyrant,"  that sounds a bit angry.  It isn't an exact quote but we have it on video.  And by the way I looked up this ray comfort character and I feel like they chose a crappy representitive for Christianity.  I would of liked to see Ravi Zacharias (maybe spelled wrong) and Mark Driscoll (pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle) talk to you guys.  That would of been more interesting for me.


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brand0n wrote: There is

brand0n wrote:
There is some hope for us narrow-minded, idiotic, prejudice Christians : ).  

Sure there is, but you must be willing to open the narrow mind.  A very large portion of the posters on this site were once adherents to one religion or another (most probably christian).  Here's a painful but likely true thought:  They understand the bible and the ideology as well or better than you yourself do.......and they reject it.   There are a multitude of reasons for doing so.  Here are a few:

- The concept of a god who is omnipotent and omniscient is illogical.  You can read about this in a # of other threads.

- The stories in the bible mirror or re-hash those of other myths/religions (I'm guessing that you reject as truth).  I have yet to find a biblical storiy that was unique or compelling. There are also threads where you can read about these issues.   

- The creation story is absurd to the point of embarassment to any thinking/educated person.

- The deepest human repression is and always has been our fear of death.  Every culture I know of, history to present, has made up stories to address this fear and feed the repression by telling stories of how humans can circumvent this fear and achieve immortality.  Your religion is not any more or less unique in this regard.  And neither is it any closer to truth than that of any other culture.   

- I don't believe in unicorns, dragons, satyrs or talking snakes.

Those are a small fraction of the many reasons christianity doesn't deserve even a minute of my attention.   

Quote:
 I just want to understand atheist beliefs more so that it can give me a greater conviction for why I serve God. 

A mind already convinced it has the truth can never gain understanding.  How sad that you actually think it can.  And an atheist has a "lack of belief", not belief.  You should understand this well as you yourself are an atheist in regards to every religion known to humans........except of course....your own !

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


Iruka Naminori
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brand0n wrote: Why do you

brand0n wrote:
Why do you say that the Church molests children when I have been apart of many churches and have not heard of any molestation. But I have had friends that have had uncles or fathers molest them. It is comments like that, that make me wonder if aetheist don't believe God exists because they have met some dumb Christians (they do exist, I may be one of them : ))

The Catholic Church systematically moved pedophile priests from one parish to another, covering up what they did.  That qualifies as church-sanctioned molestation.  I'm going to guess your next move will be to say that Catholics aren't true Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman <--It's a fallacy. 

 

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    Well I am going to

    Well I am going to start off with I have never been "burned" by the church, no molestations, no bad experiences, zip, I actually do some volunteer work with the church in Toronto, mainly because the pastor/padre is a friend of my father, both my father and I are atheists (he has a non religious radio show on a religious/community radio). I have been an atheist practically all my life (since the age of 7 or 8, as i have stated before in previous forums) I hold no anger towards God, same as i don't hold anger towards santa clause for not existing, nor towards believers for their beliefs.

 Yes I do hold anger to individual people for their actions/behavior be it religous or otherwise. I do view the church and religous beliefs as silly, however i also see the good it can do for the group of believers in third world countries to which the church i do volunteer work helps in building schools, housing and sending AID during times of crisis (I also volunteer with various humanists/secular groups)

As for any statements about homosexuals/liberals etc.....I know many religous homosexuals of both genders, many liberals as well that are religious, they have a different view than conservative christians but hey, that's their problem not mine in the end. 

Now dumb athiests yup i know a few, dumb theists, oh yeah i know a few, and have learned to nod and smile when they speak. Ignorant people on both sides, yes many. As for making the statement of jesus loves them well, that really depends, jesus did make the statement of slaughter those that do not want him to reign over them....not to loving really. But that's just one part there are many others in there as well, for any side, love, hate, etc. I'll leave it at that. Plus if an atheists doesn't believe, usually, the ones i have met, have a very much logical rational reason, not because of past misdeeds done to them.


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AmericanIdle

You said that a mind already convinced it has the truth can never gain understanding and yet I have found, since being on this forum that you and many other atheists are completley sold out to the unbelief in God so much to the point where I have already been called a bigot, molester, idiot and many other things.  I am here at your site are you at a church on sunday.  Probably not because I have found that most of the atheists that have responded to my comments are catholic, which by the way I do believe are Christian, but are just boring about it.  They tried the whole "religious" thing, which I think sucks.  Religion is when we add things to the Bible that aren't what God intended.  We were meant to have a relationship with God not be religious.  I talk to God, he answers my prayers.  It is so much more than an intellectual ascent.  I don't claim to know it all that is why I trust in a God who has proven himself to do so.  I live for him more than just to get a free pass into heaven but to see a hurt world come to know Him who brings peace, life, healing and love.  I am about social action, showing the gospel through works and love.  My faith isn't about 4 church walls and communion it is about showing love to all, even all you guys.  Love tells the truth.  Anyways, good thoughts AmericanIdle.  You atheists sure do put us Christians into a perfect little box.  Hey, we do the same to you.  I hope we can just all journey together in our lives with communication and love.  Peace out!


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brand0n wrote:You said

brand0n wrote:
You said that a mind already convinced it has the truth can never gain understanding

It was a remark to your erroneous statement that you wanted to "understand" another POV so that it would strengthen your conviction for your own POV.  It doesn't work like that.  You can't really want to "understand" another person's viewpoint if you've already made up your mind that you're not going to change it Brand0n. 

 

Quote:
and yet I have found, since being on this forum that you and many other atheists are completley sold out to the unbelief in God

"sold out" implies buying into a lie or giving up a conviction.  It's incorrect, Brand0n, an insult and a stupid one.  As I mentioned before, most, including me, are quite familiar with religion and may have embraced it at one time. 

A news flash for you...I love the idea of immortality.  I don't want to die any more than you do.  I love the thought of a benevolent god watching over me and promising me eternal happiness.  I'd give up everything I have....Pray like a martyr dusk to dawn (Let's see if BGH gets that one) and do whatever I had to do to attain this.  Just one problem....The promise of immortality (your religion here) is a man made concept that has never been based in truth.  And if the god of the bible existed (which clearly he does not) he is a cruel being whose ego is based on a cruel father concept of "obey me or I will torture you forever" and therefore he doesn't deserve my or your respect.

Quote:
 so much to the point where I have already been called a bigot

you appear to be. 

Quote:
molester

 I have not seen you called a molester once and have seen no evidence for this.  The church however
(and not just catholics) has a long history of molestation, sex abuse and the coverup of these.  Google church scandal at any given time (including now) and there will be dozens of cases across the country involving church and sex abuse.  There is one right now on my local news.

 

Quote:
I am here at your site are you at a church on sunday.

I haven't been to church in years and despite this I probably still have been to church more times in my lifetime than you have been in yours.  Do you need to go to a mosque weekly to learn all that you need to about Islam ?

Quote:
I believe are Christian, but are just boring about it.
 

I was "pentecostal" and "boring" has no bearing on the truth of the matter, which is what we're tallking about.

Quote:
Religion is when we add things to the Bible that aren't what God intended. 

So for you real "religion" has to be based on the bible.  Tell me you're not a bigot again.  The bible was written by men and a made up deity is a frighteningly old concept, which perhaps qualifies for "boring". 

 

Quote:
I talk to God, he answers my prayers. 

Are you less or more delusional that the hundreds of millions of muslims who believe the exact same thing...just a different god.  How about the Hindu?  The Jew?  The Mormon ? 

Quote:
 I live for him more than just to get a free pass into heaven but to see a hurt world come to know Him who brings peace, life, healing and love.  I am about social action, showing the gospel through works and love.  My faith isn't about 4 church walls and communion it is about showing love to all, even all you guys.  Love tells the truth.
 

Admirable, but love exists without any religion and it is an emotion.  Our emotions are far more often likely to blind us from the truth, not help us to find it. 

Quote:
Anyways, good thoughts AmericanIdle.

Thank you and you as well.

 

Quote:
You atheists sure do put us Christians into a perfect little box.  Hey, we do the same to you.  I hope we can just all journey together in our lives with communication and love.  Peace out!

I absolutely promise that there will be no retribution of any kind on my part should you continue with your beliefs.  No bigotry, no exclusion, no hatred, no bloodshed, no murder, no eternal torture in a fiery pit.  It is a pity that you cannot return the sentiment for my lack of belief.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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brand0n wrote: Well

brand0n wrote:
Well piriahjane I came back.  You didn't believe I would and I did.  Do you now believe in God j/k.  Trust me my wife and I worked in the coffee business on Hawthorne in Portland, OR, which is completely inhabited by atheists, homosexuals and liberals.  I have to admit that before working there and becoming close friends with many of them I did look at them and assumed a lot of things that weren't true.  I learned to listen, think and love.  There is some hope for us narrow-minded, idiotic, prejudice Christians : ).  I assumed you were angry, you assumed I was lying.  We're even.  I just want to understand atheist beliefs more so that it can give me a greater conviction for why I serve God.  I truly do respect you all even though I might say some things that don't come across like that.  I guess I am learning how to be tactful. 

I don't mind being proven wrong.  We often get 'hit and runs'.  Your thread seemed to be going in that direction. 

I questioned your statement about your having friends who are atheist, liberal and homosexual based on your apparent attitude towards such people.  It seems unlikely to me that someone would be friends with someone whom they don't appear to have a very positive attitude about.  I didn't say you were a liar. 

I appreciate that you admit that you had preconceived notions about certain types of people.  Many of us do.  Again, I don't mind being proven wrong. 

The fact that you somehow think that our 'beliefs' will confirm your faith in god makes no sense to me.  The only thing that most of us have in common is that we simply do not have a belief in a supernatural diety. And you will see even that can differ a bit.  Other than that there really are no 'atheist' rules we follow.

You might need to be a bit more tactful, I agree.  Your original post came off a bit bigoted, arrogant and ignorant. 

Welcome to the forum.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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brand0n wrote: To prove

brand0n wrote:
To prove that God exists I will prophesy about something in your life. You love baseball and basketball.  Just kidding.  I read a comment that you made later in where you talked about the church molesting children.  Even though I don't disagree that certain pastors or priests have molested children I believe you some what proved my point by showing your disapproval (not hatred, because I got crucified for using that word about God) for the church.  Why do you say that the Church molests children when I have been apart of many churches and have not heard of any molestation.  But I have had friends that have had uncles or fathers molest them.  It is comments like that, that make me wonder if aetheist don't believe God exists because they have met some dumb Christians (they do exist, I may be one of them : ))


Either you've been living under a rock for years or you have been purposefully blind to the overabundance of pedophile priests that have been protected or slashed by the church lately.
I don't quite know why you'd think I hate the church when I'm just stating given facts about the conditions within the Catholic Church and the smaller churches down the line. Again, I have no connection to Christianity or any of its sects (other than learning about them through books and articles) as I was born into a Jewish household and steered clear of Christianity.
Have you ever even remotely thought outside of your religious box? I highly doubt it.


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Hey AtheistAviB

Hey AtheistAviB. First off how do you guys quote me in your entries. I don't know how to do that when I am trying to quote you. Can you direct me to a help page on how to do posts correctly.

I definatley have heard about the cases of pedophile priests. I have my own thoughts of why that happens. I believe God designed us to marry. Paul talked about celibacy but he clearly didn't talk about it like doctrine but rather a suggestion. When priests choose to not be married they go outside of what is called by scripture and thus fall prey to lustful desires. In the case of the average pastor molesting that is just sin at work. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. We make huge mistakes and kids suffer because of them. I am sure that if we could see what some of us do when we are alone it would be pretty gross. BY THE WAY I DO NOT EXCUSE THEIR ACTIONS. Nothing hurts me more than when I see the name of Christ smeared by his followers.

Ghandi even said something to the effect that he has no problem with Christ just His followers.

I hope that I can be the type of Christian that atheists, catholics, muslims or anyone can at least respect because I show love and kindness whether they think I am wrong or not.

I think by me going to this site I am at least allowing myself to think outside the box. I was accused of being a hit and run on this site but I have come back several times now. I do read every word that all of you post. I have read sections of the Koran, the Book of Mormon and now read many atheist blog posts. I am not completely out of the box but am trying to be. I don't want to be close-minded. I just desire truth, but I still believe Jesus is the most logical truth so far. I don't know why I keep getting nailed and called closed-minded for saying that I believe in God. Just becaue I am not an atheist doesn't mean I am wrong it just means I believe something else.

How long does it take for a theist to gain enough respect on this site to where I am not called a bigot anymore? much love


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Hey AmericanIdle

Hey AmericanIdle There is way to much to respond to so I won't try to talk about everything.  I haven't called you a sinner even though in my faith you could be titled as one.  I don't because I don't want to offend you and because you don't believe in the same faith that I do and it wouldn't make sense to you because you don't believe the Christian God exists.  So please don't call me a bigot. 

bigot noun: racist, sexist, homophobe, dogmatist, jingoist. See note at zealot . 

 Those are tough words and I hope that I am neither of them.  You can't make a judgement call off of a couple posts.  I don't know why my words stir so much anger and hatred for you to call me a word that means so much evil.  Have you had so many bad experiences with Christians that I just say a few words about my faith in Jesus and it automatically causes you to slander my character.  By the way, I am not offended but am wondering why so much hatred, name calling and judgementalism.  I though, as a Christian, I was suppose to do that.  


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Quote:How long does it

Quote:
How long does it take for a theist to gain enough respect on this site to where I am not called a bigot anymore?

Everyone is given the benefit of the doubt but you labeled yourself a bigot in your first post.

Quote:
When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.

When someone dumps everyone they dissagree with in one big box the large red bigot warning lights start flashing. There is something implied there in your opinion of homosexuals and liberals that suggests a rather bigotted world view. Someone's sexuality or politial ideas are not relevant to discussion of an atheist-theist debate

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


brand0n
Theist
Posts: 11
Joined: 2007-06-11
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Hey piriahjane

Hey Piriahjane

Thanks for welcoming me into your communit.  I understand now that when walking into someone's home for the first time that I should probably take off my shoes and be a bit more polite.  

You have given me the only welcoming message, in my opinion.  

 If atheists are so open-minded why I have found them to come across so close-minded.  You say anything about Jesus and you're labeled ignorant.  I would respect someone so much more if they asked some questions rather then just spewed their beliefs and ended their post with a cruel comment.  

My question to you, so that I can understand your beliefs or unbelief, is if you could tell me the number one most convincing thought of why I should be an atheist?  I say one because I have found that if I ask for all the thoughts you guys have a lot of them. I want to chew on one at a time.  Anymore and the argument becomes confusing.  I really do want to understand.