Are Atheists intellectuals or just burned by the Church?
Offline Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.
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Offline SIDE POINT: I was under the impression that the church was molesting children, not burning them.....
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Offline Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.
That would be your first and only correct analysis in the entire paragraph. Congratulations.
When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.
What does someone's sexual orientation or political leaning have to do with anything? Its a non sequiter. Someone's political leaning has no bearing on their atheism. An atheist can be left, right, center, it does not matter. And what of sexual orientation?
It seems you are lumping "atheists and agnostics" together with "liberals", and then for good measure, to show what an intolerant bigot you are, you add sexual orientation. You continue to demonstrate ignorance by making an appalling fallacy of equivocation, an absurd non sequiter, which has no bearing on the subject.
But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray.
Your second correct analysis. I must retract my first point.
. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.
I actually felt vomit in the corners of my mouth reading this, you are so uneducated and ignorant. First of all
a) The fact that you cannot see the logical fallacy in the statement "an atheist/agnostic" hates God, means that you have a nonexistent grasp of logic, which you wildly understated in your first paragraph Please explain carefully how it logically follows from "I don't believe X exists" to "I hate X". The two statements are mutually contradictory, and the fact that you cannot see that is utterly pathetic.
b) Again, you bring up political leaning, which is a non sequiter. your arguments are so riddled with logical fallacies that it looks like a piece of swiss cheese that was used for target practice. The fact that you equate "liberal" with "atheist" shows how ignorant you are. Because of the poor wording of your argument I could not tell whether you were implying either of the following scenarios:
1: All Atheists Are liberal
Which is a non sequiter. I, for instance, am a centrist. Lack of religious beleif has no effect on political leaning
2: All Liberals are atheists
Which again is not true, and if it is was the second one you implied, I feel even more sorry for your brain.
I also spotted this shameless equivocation:
3: Someone who calls themself a liberal hates God
I have no idea where you got this from, but you directly implied it in your ignorant paragraph. I already explained that it is a non sequiter to extrapolate someone's religious beleif/lack thereof from their political leaning, and it is also a non sequiter to insist that atheist is equivocated with "hating God". Put the two together, and it shows how bigoted and stereotyping your views are.
If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed.
By demonstrating your ignorance over and over again, without shame, you hand ammunition to me. You have no evidence to support your absurd notion, and as such you are making up a logical fallacy of false correlative. If you are interested, I am atheist because I am a scientist, who beleives in using reason and logic to find out the truth.
I know you may find this hard to believe, but I was never fucked in the ass by a priest.
Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?
1. I actually cried with laughter reading this, because
a) It's an Argument from pity, a terrible informal fallacy of false consequence. There is absolutely no evidence to support what you are saying. Do you realie this? None. Zero. You are extrapolating personal beleifs about a subject you clearly know nothing about into assumptions about people you have never met. Your ignorance of all things makes me, quite frankly, frightened.
b) Telling an atheist Jesus loves him is somewhat of a losing battle. Most atheists, myself among, are rationalists, who believe in using reason and logic, not faith. So, we need evidence that Jesus loves us before we can accept this claim.
And again, I'm going to reveal to you a secret you may find very hard to believe. I was never fingered by the pastor, and my parents never hit me? Amazing, huh? {In case your intelligence cannot grasp the following sentence, it is sarcasm] How can I be an atheist if I was never fucked as a little boy or beaten by drunk dad? WHAAT! You mean it was reason and logic that drove me to my belief that God is non-existent. But how can that be? Absurd! I won't believe it!
You've arrived at preconcieved conclusions based on ignorant prejudice. I can see why all the atheists, agnostics, would be rude to you during debate. You're incredibly bigoted.
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.
You're overflowing.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Offline I've seen the light! I know now that God really exists and loves me. Please, tell me more. I wish to know more about God.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
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Offline Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect.
If you were perfect, we'd have zero reason to critisize you. You have zero reason for even pointing this out. Someone "not being perfect" has yet to stop me from ripping on them, so away we go...
I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view.
Brian and Kelly are not the Pope and Popess of atheism. They lack a belief in god and yes, there are a number of beliefs that are commonly derived from that, but ultimately they speak for themselves. There are no "atheistic beliefs" that could not be held by any number of different types of people (ex., many Christians believe in evolution). The only defining factor we have in common is a LACK of a belief. On an unrelated note, I'd be interested to know on what points you were debating homosexuals.
But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture.
The fuck is that supposed to mean?
My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God.
I went to church every Sunday for sixteen years and never had a negative experience. I could say roughly the same for most atheists I know. Furthermore, none of those types of people "hate" God, and I know a LOT of very liberal Christians. Have you done any research into anything ever? Do you leave your house often? I don't want to be too upfront, but Jesus Cuntpunching Christ, you've said some ignorant stuff so far.
If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you?
You would love it if they told you your bullshit loaded question was correct, wouldn't you? It would excuse you from having to come up with real arguments for your invisible friend if Brian or Kelly had a run in with a God-fearing kidtoucher, wouldn't it? You have to make these assertions in order to rationalize their position to yourself. Is the idea that some people are simply unsatsified with groundless appeals to the supernatural that repulsive to you?
If you think I am full of crap then please let me know.[/qoute]
You are so full of crap you'd probably petrify if you stayed out in the yard too long.brand0n wrote:But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends
Why do you insist on lumping these people together?brand0n wrote:who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself.
Your friends probably talk about you when you're not around.brand0n wrote:I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America.
You care so much you took no time whatsoever to learn the first thing about what they believe.brand0n wrote:Tell me what you think.
I think you are a repulsive human being. Luckily, I'm not a predeterminist, and I believe you can change your nature. Please educate yourself.
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Offline I'm not angry at God. I don't believe God exists, I never really did even when I was trying to be Christian, even then I went to a very liberal church with no dogma, no expectation on me to believe and it was full of nice, caring people, they certainly didn't burn me, hurt me, molest me in anyway.
You seem to me to be very narrow minded, shallow and rude. I reckon you should probably learn some manners, and learn not to generalise, we are not sheep, we are human beings, all individuals! I try to show everybody respect and courtesy unless of course they insult me or extremely annoy me. I hope you stick around here so you can learn about us, learn not to judge us, and perhaps deal with a few home truths.
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Offline Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.
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Offline Here in Holland 40% of the population is non-religious. A lot of people of my age and younger grew up without a believe. So they didn't stop believing in god because they were burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations, they never went to church or believed in a God in the first place. They are atheist because they were not taught to be theists. You are reasoning from a situation where religious people are probably a great majority. I remember your way of thinking from when I grew up in a fairly closed religious niche in Holland. God is probably such a big part of your reality, that you can not even accept a possible reality without a God. If you say atheists deny god, because they hate him, you deny their denial. Because hate for God implies believe in God. Atheists lack that believe (hence the name).
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brand0n wrote:When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect.
What does someone's sexual orientation or political leaning have to do with anything? Its a non sequiter. Someone's political leaning has no bearing on their atheism. An atheist can be left, right, center, it does not matter. And what of sexual orientation?
deludedgod, you are a brilliant--friggin' brilliant!!!!--molecular biologist. Your scientific posts totally blow me away. But because I am a spelling nazi, I thought I'd point out a couple of errors I often see in your posts. It's "non sequitur," not "non sequiter"; "ad hominem" not "ad hominid." I think an ad hominid argument would be--what?--argument from bipedal, upright primates? 
(Whenever I use quotes I feel a little weird because I like the British rule better, but use the American rule I was taught by my last prof. Maybe I should just use the British rule because it makes more sense...hmmmm...)
And again, I'm going to reveal to you a secret you may find very hard to believe. I was never fingered by the pastor, and my parents never hit me?
You know, it's weird, but I was "fingered" by a member of my church and my father did hit me. I feel insulted that Brand0n is making light of my experiences by telling me that those reasons and those reasons alone led to my becoming an atheist. Sigh.
Apart from the issue of god's existence (or lack thereof), religion causes many evils. My father hit me because he bought into the verse about not sparing the rod. He was also a very angry man.
Churches are havens for pedophiles because conservative churches emphasize obeying authority figures. Pedophiles know this. They will often prey on the most religious children because they know those children will obey without question. This is what happened to me.
Many years ago in a town about an hour and a half from where I live, Kenneth Parnell abducted little Steven Stayner and kept him as a sexual slave for seven years. He targeted Steve because he'd heard Steve's parents were strict and very religious. When Kenneth Parnell approached Steven, he gained the boy's confidence by telling him, "I'm a pastor."
I'm not even going to speculate about why Cary Stayner turned out the way he did, growing up in such a religious family.
And isn't it odd? I'm also rather liberal. But I'm not gay. I guess you struck out there, eh, slick?
While my experiences in the right-wing fundamentalist churches did cause a lot of pain, I ultimately rejected the idea of god because it is illogical. This illogical belief causes a lot of strife. Little kids get hurt. Just teaching them hell is real is child abuse. Add in sexual and physical abuse and of course these kids are going to be angry with an institution that fostered such abuse!!! Add in the little detail that it was all done in the name of a LIE and sure, you're going to get some angry atheists. Justifiably angry atheists.
You're looking at the whole thing backward. Because god isn't real and because horrible things are done to children in the name of this non-existent god, children raised in such unhealthy situations are going to grow up to be angry atheists. Just because I'm angry doesn't mean I'm not right.
As for god, yeah, I'm angry at him. That fucker! Why did he have to go and not exist on me like that! Next time I see him I'm going to kick his non-existent ass.
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I am an atheist. I do not hate any god as I see no reason to think any god exists. I also have no reason to be mad at Jesus, a church, a pastor, or anyone else as I have never had any belief in any god and never attended any church. I am an atheist because belief in a god is not only an unsupported faith based belief (which I believe to be a very bad thing for anyone to make a habit of having), but as far as I am aware, basically non-sensical.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Well, for starters, the Church hasn't "burned" me as I wasn't raised a Christian. I was brought up a religious jew and have become an Atheist within the last 2 years.
There are no scientific, logical, or any other reasons to believe that there exists any of the Gods that have been claimed to be existent over the centuries of human existence.
I have no traumatic experiences that would cause me to "turn from God", and even if I did that would do nothing to the validity of the stance of Atheism. One's arguments is to be taken on the merit of the arguments alone and NOT on the lifestyle, personality, or any other character trait they may exemplify.
Furthermore, Atheists do NOT hate God as they don't believe that God exists. They may (myself included) hate the notion of many of the Gods (the Judao-Christian God in particular), but once again that does nothing in regards to leveling the validity of the Atheist's arguments against God's existence.
I appreciate the fact that you realize that we "looked better" than Kirk and Ray, but as far as what I think about the rest of your post...I think my head just exploded. Puhleaze.
Atheist Books
Doesn't make sense to hate things that don't exist. And most of us aren't atheists because of a negative experience:
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
I don't hate god because I don't believe he, she, or it doesn't exist.
There was never one person that turned me away from god.
Yes I think you are full of crap
(you asked!) Not so much you, but delusional beliefs in general.
And I can't speak for the other atheists you talked to that were angry... but maybe they were a bit frustrated by having person after person implying that they had bad morals, were going to go to hell, etc...
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Does this mean we can go off on your text formatting? No indents, no paragraphs?
There are no 'atheist beliefs', just one thing, a LACK of belief in a god.
Ummm.... why are you debating homosexuals, why throw that into the mix? Someone preferring the same sex is something to debate?
Yet, you still came here and posted.
Well, okay. Not really the point of the debae though.
Hate what isn't there huh?
Do you believe in bigfoot? If you answer "no" then you need to ask yourself why you hate bigfoot.
This sounds like projection.
More projection.
I do.
Again with the homosexuals, what did they do to you?
If you really had atheist friends you would know they just lack belief in a god.
I would bet that is true.
I think....
I am just as angry with god as you are angry with the creator of god.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
I think the subject for your post is offensive and rude. Why must you come here with your assumptions and subtle insults towards an atheist's intelligence? If you have a question, then ask it. If you have an insult, kindly keep it to yourself.
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
Are you angry at the tooth fairy? Are you angry at Thor?
If you're asking me Matt, I'm frustrated with brand0n.
Hi. This is me, letting you know, I think you're full of crap, at least so far. Especially when you lump atheists together with all the other main Christian targets of persecution (homosexuals, agnostics, liberals, ...). I know how uneasy it must be for you to know that Jesus isn't obvious to everybody, and it would be so soothing to come up with some rationalization that would allow you to understand those people as just being mad at god or something, but it just isn't like that.
Look, I've been a Christian, and my experiences with Christians and church were overwhelmingly ranging from positive to neutral, sometimes just boring. Lots of the people I care about are Christians, and I don't consider them bad, or even stupid.
I left Christianity because it isn't true. It's really just that simple.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Grammar and spelling don't concern me unless it's so bad I can't understand what someone is saying. Logic on the other hand, is the only correct way to argue. So pointing out logical misteps is necessary.
You have made an error. Atheists by definition have no beliefs as a group.
When I read this line I can't help but thing of all the religious nuts calling people they don't like "liberals" or "homosexuals" or what have you. You should accept the fact that everyone is human, just like yourself. Get down off your pedastel, you are no better than anyone else.
I disagree.
You are wrong. It is impossible to hate something that does not exist.
I never believed a god existed. What do you say to that? I've never believed in god from the moment I was born until today. I've never belonged to any religion or other cult.
That's not what they are doing.
This is an insulting and brainless question to ask. If you think people here have turned from your false god because of emotion, think again. It's quite the opposite.
You are.
Obviously that cannot apply to me. I don't hate your jesus and I don't hate your god. I don't believe they exist, or ever did exist. How can I hate something that doesn't exist?
While you pray for me, I'll think for you. But I also wouldn't have a problem sitting down for a coffee together.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.