Are Atheists intellectuals or just burned by the Church?
Offline Before you go off on me because of my spelling errors, grammer or because my logic isn't flawless, I want you all to know that I am not perfect. I sometimes think aetheists have a good argument but I disagree with most of their beliefs. When I saw Brian and Kelly on the ABC show I couldn't help but remember all the aetheists, homosexuals, liberals and agnostics that I debated with in high school who were always so angry and didn't display kindness or respect. Not a great advertisement for your point of view. But anyways, I think Brian and Kelly at least looked alot better than Kirk and Ray. You both are way more appealing to this modern culture. My belief is that most people who hate God whether you call yourself an aethiest, agnostic, liberal or whatever have been burned by the church or suffered extreme traumatic situations that have left them hating God. If I was molested, abused or been a part of an unhealthy church it would be hard to believe a God existed. I would probably do everything I could to explain away a God because it would hurt too much to believe he existed. Brian and Kelly can either of you look back to an abusive father, a bad pastor, a sexually abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, an uncle or aunt that hurt you in ways you can't explain and see that it might of influenced why you can't see that Jesus loves you? If you think I am full of crap then please let me know. But I have asked this question to my homosexual, aetheist and agnostic friends who seem to hate the Jesus I love and they all have admitted to me that it was a person who turned them away from God and not God himself. I pray for you guys and I want you to know that I care for you guys and I would love to sit down and drink coffee with you because you probably are more interesting then many Christians that I have met. But I still love Jesus. Gotta love our free-thinking America. Tell me what you think.
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I try to be a diplomatic as possible to everyone involved.
Perhaps the reason you find that people are coming across close-minded is because you're post aren't exactly... thought out. You're still being a bit antagonistic and I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't realize you're being that way.
Many theists come on to this forum to antagonize or otherwise bash the members. If people are coming across as short and rude to you, perhaps your tone is raising defenses. When a person is insulted or misrepresented time and again, they tend to be a little curt about it.
Not all theists are treated rudely on this forum. Most people are here to engage in debate and learning. Cory T is wonderful as well as Wavefreak and both are theists.
I cannot tell you why you should be an atheist. I could tell you why I am one, but I have no intention of convincing someone else to be one. If you are truly curious in why people are atheists, please read these forums. Look over and become familiar with the topics that are brought up. And above all, be respectful.
The more posts you make that are respectful and purposeful, the better.
You asked about quoting people. If you want to quote someone, click on the 'quote' option under their post. You'll see codes that look like this:
[ quote=brand0n] - This starts the quote (minus the space after the bracket)
[ /quote] - this ends the quote (minus the space after the bracket)
You can write in between and these codes should separate your coments from other. There is a tutorial thread floating around here done by Susan, who is much better than this then I am.
[EDIT] Susan rocks for her quote thread!!!
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Because the concept of "God" and of "spiritual" and "supernatural" means absolutely nothing.
Read this to start:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/7720
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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First off I do appreciate that you have come back to face the music, (so to speak) even if only for a few posts.
I find "sin" an incredibly childlike concept that takes advantage of what is natural human guilt. The talking snake and flaming sword portion of the christian sin story doesn't help your case much either. Every culture in history has their own version of right and wrong. Christianity has done an extremely poor job or preventing wrongs and an amazingly effective job of providing justification for them.
Perhaps your god could have provided a specific commandment not to sexually abuse children. He was pretty specific about not picking up sticks on the sabbath and punishment for your slave. Perhaps fingering children was not one of his priorites.
That is what is referred to as a "No true scotsman" fallacy. You should look that one up.
Love and kindness is the pretty veil, religion loves to hide under. There is nothing loving or kind about banishing someone to eternal torture if they choose not to buy what you're selling. Religious belief often comes with its own self defense mechanism. This mechanism effectively excludes those who refuse its ahem.."love" as "heretics", "blasphemers" , etc. and eventually this "love" (as history so often shows) would remove them all from the planet.
I agree and this is laudable. I read theist posts here all the time and try to keep an open mind. So far, I've found none of their posts original or compelling but there's always tomorrow.
Ignoring the egotistical martyr reference for a moment, you were called close minded for stating that your mind was already made up. This is called, "close minded", no matter how much you (or even the homosexuals, atheists and liberals you had to work with) wish it were not so.
No one her is forcing you to do anything. There are no threats of violence, death or torture derived from atheism or this site. Now turn this around to examine your own beliefs and you will find this is not so. I think your beliefs are absolutely false but there is no requirement that I hurt you or banish you for them. One of us lives under oppression and tryanny. Hint!.....It's not you.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
why do I really want to try this now?
Seriously, this is how I feel about creationists. "Why do you hate science?"
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
I'll take a stab at this. Christians hate anything that threatens their entry into heaven. Having accepted that the bible is the revealed word of god, they are forced into accepting everything it says. To deny part of the bible is to risk damnation. The fear of damnation is sufficient enough to negate the obviousness of science, even to the point where they will say that the "truth" of science is an elaborate deception created by Satan to ensnare the faithful.
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OK, since you came back, let's GO!
Check this out: http://www.rationalresponders.com/my_deconversion_and_what_led_to_it
Read it. You will notice that:
Traumatic, emotional experiences generally made me go CLOSER to religion.
I left because I questioned. Yes, my fiance breaking up with me because her parents told her god didn't want us together made me question harder, but I was questioning before that.
I was actually happier after I let christianity.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
Indeed. I was too young at the time of the incident with my church to know what was going on, but I was told much later by my mother that the church took the side of the molester!
The next church we attended was a Foursquare Church and guess what happened there? The pastor molested little boys for years before he got caught. One of the boys only made it to his teenage years before he committed suicide. This pastor was also a teacher at my fundy school.
My family stopped going to church regularly at this point, but I still went to fundy school and my family still believed. That blows your "burned by the church" theory right out of the water. If ever someone was burned by the church, it was my mother and she is still religious. In fact, I would say she's religiously insane.
I would love to see a study done on the incidence of molestation in various churches and the responses of church leaders.
As for Brand0n, I wonder why he decided that by calling churches on their horrendous record of child abuse, we are calling him a child molester? It has nothing to do with you, Brand0n, unless you make it yours.
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Hehe.
I need to find an acoustic piano on which to practice and my mother suggested a church. You know, I really would rather not practice at a church. First of all, I feel uncomfortable either sanctioning or deceiving a church by using their piano.
I would have to tell the pastor I'm an atheist. Also, I'd find it nearly impossible not to plant atheist tracts in the hymnals. I mean, the church goes out of its way to proselytize me. I just feel I'm returning the favor.
Still, a part of me thinks it would be in bad taste. So, no. I do not want to practice at a church. And yet, that part of me that wants to help the faithful take off their blinders would really like the opportunity to distribute the FFRF non-tracts in my possession. How long would I have access to that acoustic piano?
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Nope...never been 'burned' by a church.
Actually, the only times I've even been to a church were for funerals and weddings. I've been an atheist all my life.
I have not been burned out by any church. I was an athiest long before I was forced to go to a church as a child. I am a freethinking intellectual, not some poor fool speaking doom if you don't follow the truth way.
That's weird.
Well, I've talked about my deconversion on the show, and I'm not going to recap here, if only because I don't feel like typing it. Anyway, it was all research, no molestation.
My statement on Nightline was in response to the classic "What if you're wrong" question (aka Pascal's Wager), taken out of its context for heightened drama, and it may sound angry, but it's a response to the character presented in the bible as being perfect, good, and loving. If it is true (which it isn't) and I died and went to heaven, that is what I would say. And just fyi, the actual quote is "I would rather go to hell than worship a megalomaniacal tyrant."
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This sounds like such a dumb, baiting question. If anyone is wondering about this in earnest, I haven't been traumatized by the church, unless you count my Catholic baptism. I've sat through masses for weddings and funerals, and I've even worked as a videographer for church events. I respect the dead, congratulate the betrothed, and take my work seriously when I'm shooting. However, I've felt zero inclination to remain at the church, felt zero fulfillment by listening to the priests, monsignors or bishops. I look at the whole thing with detached amusement.
Polite, yes but there is no need to take your shoes off. No telling how long you plan to stay - lol
Welcome!
We're not.
Ahhhh...I think I am beginning to see why you think atheists are close-minded. Why exactly do you think an atheist wants to hear something about jesus? Is it possible that you might get a little touchy if someone said they believed in Big Foot AND told you that Big Foot loves you? Or would you think that person was a bit strange and would you care if Big Foot loves you?
You shouldn't unless you want to. If you want to then ok, be one but it is really no one's business but your own to decide what you believe in and why.
What is it you want to understand - why you should be an atheist are why others are atheists? If it is the former, you really need to do your own research for that. Atheists aren't real big on telling others what to think. We can show you how to think, but if you are looking for someone to tell you what to think, stick with religion.
If it is the latter you might as well try to understand why some people have blue eyes instead of brown. We are what we are and our reasons for not believing in a god are unique to each person.
I am sorry if this is not more helpful and I hope you stick around to read some of the threads to get a better perspective on atheism.
Is it weird?
To be perfectly honest, I was a bit awestruck the first time I saw you post... cause you are practically a celebrity at this point, and the fact that you're drop dead gorgeous may have had a slight impact too...
I guess I live a sheltered life. What is Kelly's claim to fame?
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Pick your chin up off the floor, dude. She puts her pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else...or does she?
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She shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.
When she hears that whistle blowin', she hangs her head and cries.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.