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New law will stop the formation of Chuch of Atheism in Hungary
Posted on: January 20, 2011 - 3:27pm
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New law will stop the formation of Chuch of Atheism in Hungary
Hello! A new law will stop the formation of any new religion by adding new requirements: a) at least 10 000 people can form a religion or b) only historical religions are allowed.
The law is not ready yet.
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Is this something that some lawmaker is suggesting for a bill or is it something that has been drafted and awaiting a vote ? I am pretty sure for every type of weird legislation that the government puts out, there is always a way to either circumnavigate it or get around it. Either that or it gets amended and a much softer version of it gets passed. Do you have any links or anything to look at about it ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
http://index.hu/belfold/2010/09/29/leszamolnak_a_bizniszegyhazakkal/
Hate to reveal my ignorance on here, but I can't read any language other than English. I know we have other members on here who might can, hopefully they can lend their expertise on this one.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Why would anyone want to form a "church" of atheism? Frankly, I'd be glad if they forbad new churches. I'd like it if they got rid of the ones we have.
The thing that caught my eye in the original reading was the bit about "only historical churches allowed".
I just wondered what they meant by that and how the lawmakers were arriving at the conclusions that they were arriving at.
Like other posters have mentioned in other threads. I can't really see myself attending an "Atheist Church". Unless it was some place for political meetings, activism, exchange of ideas and just meeting other Atheists. But that could easily be arranged without it being under the name of a "church".
I was just curious about the details of this law and the intent behind trying to get it pushed through.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
You could probably get enough people to start a parody religion to snuff the law.
Does being a member of a historical parody religion count?
But then again, why would you want to start a "Church of Atheism" anyways?
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
My question is how historical is historical? There used to be a Church of Elvis (as in Presley) for years here in Portland, OR. Last I heard they had to close up. But would years as a church of something in some podunk town halfway across the world count as historical?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
If you get Google Chrome it has a toolbar that will automatically pop up and translate from pretty much any language for you.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Actually, the article says that the new law will require churches to have 1000 members instead of 200 and they will have to undergo a verification process to prove that they are not solely in existence for collecting donations. Exception being some historical organizations like some orthodox church with 150 members created 1800 yrs ago. I am sure we can find more than enough people to join the atheist church about to be formed. lol
Are they doing this because of atheists, or they doing this to any individual that wants to start a club of any label?
I think they are setting up a blasphemy law to maintain the social norms of the majority.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
He last posted here on January 20. So we can expect his next post on May 15. My prediction based on his history and the fact that he tends to get 16 weeks worth of meds before his next episode.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Finally they made the law.
The law is against the business religions. And they also dismissed the Church of Scientology.
http://mandiner.hu/cikk/20110711_elismert_egyhaz_lehet_a_hit_gyulekezete_is
Accepted religions in Hungary:
Magyarországi Katolikus Egyház,
Magyarországi Református Egyház,
Magyarországi Evangélikus Egyház,
Magyarországi Zsidó Hitközségek Szövetsége,
Egységes Magyarországi Izraelita Hitközség,
Magyarországi Autonóm Orthodox Izraelita Hitközség,
Budai Szerb Ortodox Egyházmegye,
Konstantinápolyi Egyetemes Patriarchátus - Magyarországi Ortodox Exarchátus,
Magyarországi Bolgár Ortodox Egyház,
Magyarországi Román Ortodox Egyházmegye,
Orosz Ortodox Egyház Magyar Egyházmegyéje,
Magyar Unitárius Egyház Magyarországi Egyházkerülete,
Magyarországi Baptista Egyház,
Hit Gyülekezete
Maybe they will add some more one by one.
Is there anyway to translate the names of those religions and how they arrive at the conclusion of what is acceptable or not ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Accepted Religions in Hungary:
Hungarian Catholic Church
Hungarian Reformed Church,
Hungarian Evangelic Church,
Federation of Hungarian Jewish Communities,
United Hungarian Israelita Community,
Hungarian Autonomous Orthodox Israelita Community,
Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Buda,
Universal Ecumenical Patriarchate - Orthodox Exarchate in Hungary,
Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Hungary,
Romanian Orthodox Diocese in Hungary,
Russian Orthodox Church's diocese in Hungary,
Hungarian Unitarian Church in Hungary,
Hungarian Baptist Church
Church of Faith
I don't know am i correct with the translation. Google Translation helped me, i just corrected it.
Apart from a live translation, not perfectly but here is what I got from dictionary.com:
Hungarian Catholic Church,
the Reformed Church in Hungary,
the Hungarian Lutheran Church,
the Hungarian Jewish Communities Federation of Unified Hungarian Jewish Community,
the Hungarian Autonomous Orthodox Jewish Community,
Budai Serb Orthodox Diocese,
Ecumenical Universal Patriarchate - Hungarian Orthodox Exarchate in Hungary Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Hungary,
Romanian Orthodox Diocese ,
Russian Orthodox Church's diocese in Hungary,
Hungarian Egyházkerülete Unitarian Church in Hungary,
Hungarian Baptist Church, Faith
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Google Translate (translate.google.com) gives us:
Hungarian Catholic Church
Hungarian Reformed Church,
Hungarian Lutheran Church,
Federation of Hungarian Jewish Communities,
Single Hungarian Jewish Community,
Hungarian Autonomous Orthodox Jewish Community,
Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Buda,
Universal Ecumenical Patriarchate - Orthodox Exarchate in Hungary,
Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Hungary,
Romanian Orthodox Diocese in Hungary,
Russian Orthodox Church's diocese in Hungary,
Egyházkerülete Hungarian Unitarian Church in Hungary,
Hungarian Baptist Church
Too slow!
You and me both.
=
So the law was arrived at this conclusion how ?
Of course,since Atheism is not an actual religion, they can not mandate that people must attend these churches or mandate the people from believing what they want in the privacy of their own homes, I would think.
The law seems to only address what is "acceptable" in Hungary.
If they started demanding that people had to attend these churches or that they had to belief in god, then I would have a problem.
Less churches can be a good thing. In the neighborhood where I grew up, you could either be a Catholic or a Methodist and if you didn't like those, you could choose to be neither. Alot of people, like me, chose to be neither. I am not saying that all the people that stopped going to church are now Atheists like me, but I am saying that less church attendance is always a good thiing in my mind.
Maybe now that there are less churches in Hungary, more people will quit going and they can lose money and several of them can close. Probably not, but it is something to hope for.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
There are some english texts here:
http://www.politics.hu/20110714/new-church-law-dismays-hungarys-methodists-buddhists-muslims/
http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2011-07/hungarian-churches-divided-over-new-religion-law
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=36242&p=402037
http://www.politics.hu/20110713/parliament-passes-new-church-law-14-churches-acknowledged/#comment-54945
Sounds like the requirements to start a guild in world of warcraft.
So why isn't Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism allowed in Hungary?
We should be against this law, guys. Discrimination against any religion is just as bad as discrimination against atheists.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
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Well then, I am against this law. If for no better reason than the fact that this violates the US first amendment. Now we need to annex Hungary in order to make this politically viable.
As it happens, I am a reserve delegate to the local republican committee and I can't get a politically motivated fence taken down. Seriously, as built, it surrounded the restaurant's dumpster and the owner's car. She had to hire a crane to get her car and the dumpster out. That and the only reason it was done was to punish her for not selling the place which she was USD $200,000 on debt to for USD $100,000. All so that a five acre open parking lot could not be 5.1 acres.
Really dude, there is a certain logic in picking the battles that you can win. This is so far removed from that that, well, fuck I don't really know.
=
We should at least give moral support to those opposed to the law.
In addition to this, Hungary will have a new Fundamental Law:
http://www.kormany.hu/download/4/c3/30000/THE%20FUNDAMENTAL%20LAW%20OF%20HUNGARY.pdf
This text, in spite of the site has several english language mistakes and mistranslations...
"may not" shall be "cannot" somewhere. And the whole text is strange.
Hungary sent a form that had to be filled obligatory by the citizens in the october of 2011. They have told, that this form is
anonym. 300 citizens declared themselves as buddhist, but the police says that they are
catholic. The catholic priest refuses to bury these people. Now the police wants to investigate one-by-one,
who is a buddhist.
It was in the newspapers twice, so the problem is very complex.
1) the form provided full anonymity
2) and this is also a religion debate
Use google translation to read more ( hungarian language is difficult to translate it properly by machine ) :
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/02/20/a_sajokazai_romak_vallasara_kivancsi_a_rendorseg/
"She had to hire a crane to get her car and the dumpster out" - Yes, this is Hungary.
Politicians create new and new fences, and people have to by new an new cranes, but before
buying the crane we have to prove something. (Example: how much money we have, where
do we work. Things that was not asked before.)
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarorsz%C3%A1gon_m%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C5%91_egyh%C3%A1zak,_felekezetek_list%C3%A1ja
Which is not related to religions, but how do politicians dare to declare MSZP members criminals?
They also have new members, not just old ones. In the constitution?
http://index.hu/belfold/2011/12/30/alkotmanyba_foglaltak_hogy_az_mszp_bunos/
I find it difficult to get upset over what religious people do to each other but a few comments are in order.
What does forming a religion mean in terms of the laws of the country?
The US does have such laws. They are called the Tax Code. Can you form your own religion take a tax deduction for your parsonage/home? It is a well known scam and there are laws to determine what is an established religion. Even though a religious court from Saudi visited the US and determined the Black Muslims were not Muslims are they Muslims for tax purposes?
If you remember your early 1990s history it was only after enough Scientologists infiltrated the IRS as employees and collected enough dirt that the IRS recognized it as a religion. That would be bad enough but the US started championing Scientology diplomatically albeit at a low level. Germany is a preferred target.
The issue is not prohibiting religious beliefs but a matter of the consequences of recognition as a religion in the legal and of course financial sense. If governments were truly neutral on religions there would be no tax advantages for religions, no property tax exemptions for cathedrals or parsonages or Scientology centers and this issue would not arise. But as there are such legal consequences of having a legal religion then governments do have an interest in establishing just what is a religion for legal purposes.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Finally, it is about forming churches. Is church actually religion in Hungary?
Acknowledged religions/churches get money support and maybe tax deduction.
Do they restrict which religions are allowed to form a church in Hungary?
As I posted, I know nothing about Hungary. I do know there are many countries including the US which have legal requirements for lawful churches which have nothing to do with belief. Also in the US and I assume those other countries legally incorporating or whatever as a church but not filing for any special legal status is not illegal. It is only when claiming the legal preferences of churches that the legal problems start.
It all started with the Romans and their exemptions for temples. That is why Rome insisted upon legally vetting what constituted a legitimate god. That is why the Judeans were pissed Rome would not recognize their god in any form. The Romans knew the Judean god was a recent invention.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Church of Atheism a trollish thing to do anyway. Church and Atheism are logically incompatible words...
Everything is changing to quickly as days are passing...
It is not related to religions, but the hungarian government is stepping against free speech:
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/03/14/mohacs_bilincsbe_vertek_a_polgarmestert_kritizalot/
A citizen got handcuffs for shouting and declaring the mayor as a dictator.
Ha shouted in the handcuffs : "ez a demokrácia, ez a nemzeti együttműködés rendszere"
Translated to english: "this is the system of the democracy and of international cooperation".
Years before, Ferenc Gyurcsány minister president allowed free speech, he said: it is democracy today, everyone has the right to declare his/her opinion.
After posting I knew something was wrong. That statement is false. Yahweh was identified as Jupiter, Zeus, Amun and others as a primary progenitor god. The cause given to the peasants for the revolts was the prohibition of mutilating the genitalia of infants. What the real issue was is not recorded.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
And who accepted these laws Pál Schmitt (he was able to stop them, but he did not), the prime minister, now faces to plagium.
It is interesting, that he finished as a gymnastic teacher, and doctorated as a gymnastic teacher.... ????
They say, the doctoral thesis of Pál Schmitt is copied from other book without noticing that he cited (!!!!),
you can read the original parts that he wrote, it is simple and short and strange. It is about women in sport...
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/03/28/deritsuk_ki_honnan_masolt_meg_schmitt/
Today at the moment, university students protest to withdraw Pál Schmitt's doctoral degree, because he acquired
it with cheating.
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/03/28/ulosztrajkot_tart_a_hallgatoi_halozat_a_sote_rektori_hivatalaban/
I think Pál Schmitt is an easy rider....
Pál Schmitt's doctoral degree had been withdrawn by the SOTE, Department of Gymnastics.
But no inprisonment can be applied to prime minister Pál Schmitt, because the new and old Fundamental Law
declares that the prime minister is invincible.
http://inforadio.hu/hir/belfold/hir-489830
All citizens have to wait until he leaves by his own. But after he has left, he can be punished.
Maybe these strange laws will be recreated and revoted without him again.
He has accepted all the laws without double check....
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/03/29/a_szenatus_dont_schmittrol/
He will speak today evening in the television about his decision, if he leaves or stays.
The new constitution is not completely new and not modern.
1. It does not punish demagogie. Demagogie is often used to convince people in Hungary. Political parties try to avoid it, but many companies do it to collect and screen people.
2. It does not prevent people from exploited. (like the new "Közmunka Törvény" exploit people)
3. It does not prevent the destruction of the result of the work. (when prisoners sent to work the result of the work is destroyed, because the citizens are not allowed to be glad the work of the prisoners). Or many pirate copied cassettes and disks and RW-s were destroyed by road rollers, but they forgot one thing: it is enough to delete them, so the data storage units can be kept.
4. It does not declare the rights of fugitives and unknown people without id.
5. It does not declare the right of communication. (recently many iphones were banned from the cell-power network that were bought abroad, leaving people alone on the highways unable to reach for help). Data through SIP protocol is often recorded on a tape drive, but the landlines by default are not recorded.
6. It does not declare that mental persuasion is illegal. (often people are hypnotized by the mafia to sell their property)
7. It does not declare fight against heavy physical work or financial work or exploit of under aged.
8. It does not declare the untouchedness of current work place. (when you work at a company, the company is often visited by people to ask information, what you do and how well. (your major, your last headmaster ) )
9. It does not prevent the so called crime claiming sentence for personal interrogation, for example:
- i know what you did.
Or the opposition interrogation:
- Hey, i saw you in your black car. (while he sais, "i have a yellow one", now you know which is his car)
10. It does not state the personal peace (it does not prevent sexual/phone harassment yet, it does not allow the personal convintion of legal life or convintion of genuine of something(money, certificates))
11. It does not ban the police of placing backdoors, or selling something that has backdoors.
I think these things would have to be fixed, instead of the nice preambulum.
Several secondary grammar schools were sold to the Hit Gyülekezete. (Church of the Belief?)
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/05/21/ajkan_nem_adjak_a_gimnaziumot_a_hit_gyulekezetenek/
12. It does not prevent the demagogy of emotional tuning of people what religions or cheaters or mafia do. Example people convince the others to be get fulfilled with pain and they will be happy, while the other hand they get rich from it.
13. It does not declare the minimum guaranteed of wealth. (owning of at least one car, one house per state, owning of communication equipment that cannot be taken even if it has to be seized, the amount of money that cannot be frozen)
But it should!!!
14. It should prevent forcing material for anyone. Some materials are tought outside the universities with force and spreaded like "islam" with force. For example if you pass through the subway you are often caught by preachers of Jesus (the sign on the poster is: "Ön Jézust keresi?/Jézust keresed?"
, and they try to teach you finance by force. (you can find them at Pázmány Péter sétány or in the subway at tram 4-6, at Petőfi híd budai hídfő, day by day they are at different places)
15. If you see 14., you see that the constitution of Hungary does not prevent and block covered work or covered teaching, both are conspiracies.
(covered work is, when they do different things really, for example you work on the train as bartender, but actually you work at Business Software Alliance to seize laptops of people on the train)
(covered teaching is, when they go to a pub to teach something to the other that is unusual or they teach something in universities that should not be allowed)
16. It does not prevent or block the agents of the Mossad in Hungary. Usually they help them, some of them has the id of israel. They can be at the universities legally as ERASMUS students. Often NNI (Nemzeti Nyomozó Iroda) assists and cooperates with Mossad. NNI often does covered work in Hungary.
17. It does not prevent denial or forced change of personal goal. People often exploit others current mood to make people to decide on something ignoring that they will change they mind later.
18. It does not prevent exploitation or unpleasant contact of people for business purposes.
19. It does not prevent destruction of long term earned values.
20. It does not support the creation of the system of happy citizens.
21. It does not remove the triggers form the common life. Example: if you wear a suit, listen to music, you will get more fine if fined by the police. You have the right to do both, but they should not have the right to distinguish people based on these.
22. It does not prevent, but it supports creation of ill minded pictures of other countries, even the ill minded picture of Hungary. Of course there are spokesmen, who support them. Public safety of Moscow is the best all over the world, in spite of the common legend. Sometimes the safest told cities are the most dangerous.
23. It does not prevent the type of hijacking or road blocking (14.) when people stole nothing or don't attack, instead: they make the possibility of any danger, even not physical. You just afraid, because strange people are standing in the subway, or policeman are camping at the end moving staircases, or just the usual religionists are standing in the subway and talking to you while walking to psychologically convince you about something.
24. It does not prevent acquiring information by good sense. Example: policeman try to help you set your firewall, so that way they can place a backdoor in it.
25. It does not prevent people or police to do verbal DDOS on you on the street to make you obfuscated for a second while they search your body without you permit suddenly.
26. It does not solve the problem of self defense. People are afraid of self defense and often run away, because of this, policemen often believe that they were the attackers.
27. It does not prevent demagogue explanation of scientific things. It is said that owning the knowledge to understand these things would result in prison. So you don't have the right to be convinced if something is correct or not. So they try to follow the americanish style to keep people dumb. (probably it is also an ill-minded picture of the USA, i have never been there). They believe that people should own part knowledges. (like in the game North by Northwest)
28. It does not prevent the usage of human as a mean. (peonage by hypnosis or by retracting rights)
But it should!!!
29. It does not prevent the persuasion of people based on lack of time or lost of patience. This means they force you to decide, but you have no time to think about it. The good sense of people often misused this way
30. It does not describe if the the prime minister is allowed to do against the constitution.
31. It does not describe if the prime minister is allowed to suspend the constitution for a while.
32. It does not prevent the widespread emotion speech that connects an emotion to every word.
33. It does not describe minimal guarantees related to people if their identity is stolen (many countries let it, if they let it stolen). It does not describe minimal guarantees at all.
34. Rights have to declared as if they are constants for life or not. Constant rights cannot be withdrawn.
35. It has to guarantee the definitive constant right to sense your environment. Many lawyers close your eyes by hand forced to emphasize something or touch or bow your head. These things have to be declared illegal because even the innocent can identify himself as a sinner if such gesture is done.
36. It has to guarantee the definitive rights to the constant possibility to reach intellectual and monetary profit and the constant possibility to use and own knowledge.
37. It has to guarantee the right of the uninterrupted concentration and the possibility of uninterrupted thinking.
38. It has to guarantee that objective and intellectual values cannot be devaluated artificially.
Boldog István, member of the FIDESZ party suggested a new law to exclude punishment of those who install booby-traps for self defense or defense of others. The Parliament denied this new law.
They were talking about electric fences...
It is really LOL to hear things like this from the FIDESZ, slowly they transform themselves to noones.
I think FIDESZ wants to fail.
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/06/04/nem_tamogatjak_a_keritesbe_vezetett_aramot/
Think about it, if a fire happens and you are not at home, and the fireman gets into a booby-trap. (TASER-board or electric fence or steel trap for bears or pedestrian mine)
It's subject is that the hungarian government would allow emotional t****r. (???)
I could not found it in the article. Mentioning crimes on it's name in laws is not lucky choice.
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/06/18/feltamadt_a_kormanyparti_humor/
Joke?
http://index.hu/belfold/2012/06/25/orban_kavarta_fel_az_allovizet/
http://www.nol.hu/belfold/meg_mindig_a_kommunista_nyugdijak_ellen_hadakoznak
Index says, that the old pensioners wage of "communists" will be discontinued. Calling them communists in prohibited by the constitution. It is illegal to distinguish people based on race, ethnics,... and OTHER means (political, former workplace).
Pensioners wage of workers of the inner state defense of the Belügyminisztérium in 1949-1989 will be discontinued. I think it is illegal to call them communists, because they were just worker like workers at the Nemzeti Nyomozó Iroda (Please sue Index.hu !!!)
Be aware it is almost the same as the new recruit of the Nemzeti Nyomozó Iroda, that is done on universities actively. (beszervezés)
Twit this part:
New members of the Nemzeti Nyomozó Iroda carry a governmental logbook with them. Steal it, burn it, and they will get no pension. New members of the Nemzeti Nyomozó Iroda can be found on ERASMUS of universities, foreign embassies, translation offices and language courses.
End twit.