It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Opps! Cannot Edit it now.

   There  is  a  way  forward  ( Off - site ) --

 OP --

    On that last  post on the previous page . .

   Are  we  there  yet ?!??  And, Where   I  am  personally  led,  ..  boy,  wouldn't you like to know (ha)!!

 

   Edit  --- ** (Edit :: )   Edit   --   I misspelled  chewing, and wrongly typed out something like :  'crewing'   instead,  and that  instead of using gnawing away or chewing on  flowers  that can be consumed safely!)
 

  ^

 

  This  is  a post   I  posted,  what now  is being quoted noisy one  . . . ?  (?) Whether owed or not, could this be more of that  bulletin board,  issues  much  Fonz ?!?? As  I  really  indicated that I was using this thread for.

   I  wrote  or  posted this . .

 

 

 It will cost me, but not much in terms of cost to add this here though. I never said if this is purely symbolic or literalistically literal (See Upload or View Image)

  Unrelated admittedly to this topic . . . I'm am rather boring and have abolutely nothing to report or confess for myself,  as some might have guessed from my points. Bloggists were saying, ''I believe once a cheater always a cheater but I don't know your girl or you. I was told up front if I cheated that was it. Game over, no do again!!'' , ''if you love her.. then love her! If you love her, but don't trust her, let it go. If you love her, but don't trust her, why have your heart ripped out''?" It's an interesting speculation about those  What If's  . .  it's rare to have to have these things come up once people are actually involved.

    Warning  the following is the most superfluous; self-parody; unworthy; & Self-deprecating  truly Superfluous posts  to date  :
 

↑ .. few who find it

↑  Bible bot is a uninspired musty old approach, but  the verse of the day  on this terminal ties in perfect though :

   ** Irregardless of what you know or what you think you know. A tactic is to not  discuss it, used and leading to 'disinformation'.. **

 

 

 

  Funny thing,  a verse of the day . .

Matthew 7:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)


13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

  0 f f  s i t e

  The hidden qualities of the hidden person of the heart are equally hard to find, beloved,.   Safest of all bets  and   the  chances   are there’s a history of some real hurt there (triple-meaning), at the deepest levels.

 

 

  Gospel of St. Matthew  Ch. 5 verse  16a -- In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see

   Pic or Image part of comment

  

 

 

 


Fonzie
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THE NOT RIDING OFF IN ALL DIRECTIONS WAY

BobSpence wrote:

 Once again, Fonzie, I want to thank you for continuing this discussion and describing your experiences as a devout believer. As I have tried to explain to you in turn, I value knowledge and understanding of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', to use a phrase from one of my heroes Douglas Adams, author of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', who passed away in 2001.

You are helping me to refine my approach to such discussions with someone with a very different viewpoint from my own, with the aim of enhancing my understanding of the range of human ideas and perceptions of the world.

 

 

Bob,

I've wanted to answer sooner but I've been busy.  

A great advantage to walking by faith in Jesus Christ is to have the same reference point for everything.  The living reference point - Jesus Christ - doesn't change.  The thing that DOES change is "knowing" Jesus more.   So I could have a mistaken idea which needs to be corrected but the focus of my God, Goal, Treasure is the same.  There are things in place (the Word, other Christians) that will enable me to see things that need corrected - but also Jesus can make it evident in an unlimitted number of ways.   

I see this as a stark contrast with your approach - getting up and going on a quest for meaning and purpose, charting your own course, building your own boat, supplying your own wind, el capitan!  

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Once again, Fonzie, I want to thank you for continuing this discussion and describing your experiences as a devout believer. As I have tried to explain to you in turn, I value knowledge and understanding of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', to use a phrase from one of my heroes Douglas Adams, author of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', who passed away in 2001.

You are helping me to refine my approach to such discussions with someone with a very different viewpoint from my own, with the aim of enhancing my understanding of the range of human ideas and perceptions of the world.

 

Bob,

I've wanted to answer sooner but I've been busy.  

A great advantage to walking by faith in Jesus Christ is to have the same reference point for everything.  The living reference point - Jesus Christ - doesn't change.  The thing that DOES change is "knowing" Jesus more.   So I could have a mistaken idea which needs to be corrected but the focus of my God, Goal, Treasure is the same.  There are things in place (the Word, other Christians) that will enable me to see things that need corrected - but also Jesus can make it evident in an unlimitted number of ways.   

I see this as a stark contrast with your approach - getting up and going on a quest for meaning and purpose, charting your own course, building your own boat, supplying your own wind, el capitan!  

I don't 'build my own boat', I go with others who largely share my point of view, and we compare notes. There is much more scope for co-operation, sharing ideas and experiences than you seem to be assuming.

In what sense are you using the term 'reference point' here? It's not something I can easily relate to in my experience, at least not in the this general context. I only use the term in specific contexts, such as when measuring temperature or altitude. I can think of some possible things you may mean by it, but I don't want to jump to conclusions here.

I can think of few, if any, day-to-day situations where referring to a Biblical source or similar could conceivably be relevant or useful to help me in going about my business or pusuing my personal interests. You talk about having a 'reference point' for everything. I honestly don't know what you mean.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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Horton Bieber was discontent to leave well enough alone.  For surely Robert the Spence would soon realize the Troll would offer nothing other than some new permutation of god/jesus/word, for which vapidness it had been banished before. 

Yet noone could deny it was still quite easy to...

 

Quote:
I don't 'build my own boat', I go with others who largely share my point of view, and we compare notes. There is much more scope for co-operation, sharing ideas and experiences than you seem to be assuming.
I choose god's point of view, and use his notes (the Word), which have no comparison.  The last time men chose their own point of view and compared notes, they tried building a tower through the ozone layer...I mean, to heaven, and god scattered them over the earth.

 

Quote:
In what sense are you using the term 'reference point' here? It's not something I can easily relate to in my experience, at least not in the this general context. I only use the term in specific contexts, such as when measuring temperature or altitude. I can think of some possible things you may mean by it, but I don't want to jump to conclusions here.
I experience jesus in every context of my life; even when measuring temperature and altitude, which god fine-tuned for life.

 

Quote:
I can think of few, if any, day-to-day situations where referring to a Biblical source or similar could conceivably be relevant or useful to help me in going about my business or pusuing my personal interests. You talk about having a 'reference point' for everything. I honestly don't know what you mean.
The more you let god into your heart, the more you will see his Word is relevant in every situation.  If you aren't referring to jesus, you aren't making proper citation.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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So predictable.

So predictable.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
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LIKE LOGARITHMS (EXPONENTS) TO THE SAME BASE BOB

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Once again, Fonzie, I want to thank you for continuing this discussion and describing your experiences as a devout believer. As I have tried to explain to you in turn, I value knowledge and understanding of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', to use a phrase from one of my heroes Douglas Adams, author of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', who passed away in 2001.

You are helping me to refine my approach to such discussions with someone with a very different viewpoint from my own, with the aim of enhancing my understanding of the range of human ideas and perceptions of the world.

 

Bob,

I've wanted to answer sooner but I've been busy.  

A great advantage to walking by faith in Jesus Christ is to have the same reference point for everything.  The living reference point - Jesus Christ - doesn't change.  The thing that DOES change is "knowing" Jesus more.   So I could have a mistaken idea which needs to be corrected but the focus of my God, Goal, Treasure is the same.  There are things in place (the Word, other Christians) that will enable me to see things that need corrected - but also Jesus can make it evident in an unlimitted number of ways.   

I see this as a stark contrast with your approach - getting up and going on a quest for meaning and purpose, charting your own course, building your own boat, supplying your own wind, el capitan!  

I don't 'build my own boat', I go with others who largely share my point of view, and we compare notes. There is much more scope for co-operation, sharing ideas and experiences than you seem to be assuming.

In what sense are you using the term 'reference point' here? It's not something I can easily relate to in my experience, at least not in the this general context. I only use the term in specific contexts, such as when measuring temperature or altitude. I can think of some possible things you may mean by it, but I don't want to jump to conclusions here.

I can think of few, if any, day-to-day situations where referring to a Biblical source or similar could conceivably be relevant or useful to help me in going about my business or pusuing my personal interests. You talk about having a 'reference point' for everything. I honestly don't know what you mean.

 

 

Bob,

Not a boat-builder huh.  

I'll give you an oblique answer about  "same reference point":  The sayings of the wise are like goads and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by One Shepherd.  My son, beware of anything beyond these.  Of making many books there is no end and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

As far as I'm concerned (and the Reality Is) -  there's just One Shepherd / the Written Word is the One Authority in everything / Jesus is ONE LORD and MASTER / God is the FATHER and VINEDRESSER (among OTHER THINGS like OH, CREATOR ETC.) / The Holy Spirit is Personal Trainer and Instructor.  None of these Reference Points change.  I just need to learn more and more from and about Them.  

There is a natural "honest effect" about living in the Presence of God in Christ 24/7.  You're not trying to fool anybody any more than you would be trying to fool God while in His Presence.  The Light of the Holy Spirit enables seeing what's going on.  The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword piercing to the division of bone and morrow, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  God is active along with His Word.  The Holy Spirit is actively showing us the things of God.    

Another way it's (one reference point ) referred to in Scripture is "being anchored to the Rock".  That Rock is Christ.

So I'm not trying to "titrate" right from wrong - just understand what I know IS RIGHT - which is THE WORD OF GOD.  One Reference Point.  Digital.   

Do you titrate?

 

 

 

  

 

 


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Hmm . . who accuses them before our G-d day and night . .

Vastet wrote:
So predictable.

  Hhmmm !  --

 

 

     

    So  too the 'a Devil'  remark . . hmm, 'a devil' Ref. --  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15288?page=77#comment-413756 and/or a devil  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15288?page=77 Nu #3894 Okay, already, I guess, Some  just  cannot understand,  and it wouldn't help at all now bother with it anyway.  But, For the record,  I was making reference to  Religious Holidays in the Image I made and a message to a part(-ies) being off-site  certainly not a doctrinal statement, mate (View  or  See :: Two Uploaded Images) !!

   Seeing I really dont feel like remarking at all .. so, let some images do the talking instead, NOTE :: Images part of remark . .

  See Uploaded Images . . .

 

  

  http://tinypic.com/m/ic7b4j/3

 



    On & Off -- site  --

     The New Testament  Manuscripts  say . . .

  a.)  ''. . the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of the brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down''

   b.) ''Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again''

 

 

 

  There's a great horror and outcry about some of these 'image' choices.  Hmm!! Yeah,   Ask for before you presume anything  . . next time !! Ref. to the two last pages in this Thread . .



BobSpence
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 Do I 'titrate'? What a

Do I 'titrate'? What a strange question. What is your obsession with that word? I think I may have once done some actual titration in the chemistry lab way back in high school. I don't quite know what you might mean by that term in a metaphorical sense, since it is not a process that I have had anything to do with since that high school chem lab, and I haven't heard anyone else use it even in some metaphorical sense.

If there really were a God, I can't help thinking he is either a very immoral or perhaps simply uncaring entity, when I look at what is happening in the world today, much of which brings great suffering to people who cannot be in any reasonable judgement be blamed for causing the events. IOW, hapless victims, often children. Your God is a prick, sorry. 

I wlll have to stop now, since I am at a family celebration. I may continue later.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Huh ?

  Sorry to interrupt you guys but I hope you didnt get mean me . . .

 Huh?  More a play on words, than  addressing it to Bob . .

 

    I got little sleep last night, (with my schedule I get in very early), so for now, bear with me. Please don't get the wrong idea, here. Just incase, To head of any potential confusion, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, the term 'mate' was not directly at Bob in this case. More a play on words for some lurkers than what you may have taken it for. Sorry for the any potential misunderstanding(s), despite the use of the term mate, that was addressed to Fonzie, solely to the OP (but I did want to make something clear to a lurker though).

  The OP, was making a reference to "a devil" if you read the link clearly. In the usage of  term,  that suggest that he may in fact be a devil incarnate is on the site, according to his (the OP's) thinly veiled references and wrong characterization.  Sorry If  I didnt address this specifically where I should have, encase their was any confusion about that, is all.  

 


 p.p.s. -  Getting much static about these images I am posting.



OFF- Site ::

   Any of those Mamacitas (play on words), I d hope are to be as well as an expressive, positive, and self-confident nature, with a view of good self-control.

   In the Roman Catholic  Faith,  Pregnant women have several patron saints in the Catholic tradition. Fonzie is from a different tradition. No matter what, He (the OP) is to always pass on the message  containing a incorruptible and doctrinally correct soteriology (verse mentioned). Not much thought about that whole walking in a manner worthy ( . . and not to allow for any 'disorder' among the ranks).

 

  Part(-y -ites) 0ff-site --

  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34566 {http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34566}

 




   Turning to a lighter mood . . ( please )

   (Alert  Inappropriate sense of humor).  For people who know the real me, it has been very difficult  for them  to come to terms with my ''Delusional Disorder'' -- Apparently, From this profile, I  sufferer from the Delusional Disorder of being a lesbian. I'm sorry the way my pictures are viewed only seem to reinforce, this rare delusion. Not only that but a Lip-stick lesbian, no less; As one DD suffer reported the delusion ran so deep that for someone who thought they were a lesbian,  ''(quote) 'She' possibly had my youngest child artificially inseminated by the brother of one of my many lesbian lovers so that the DNA would be similar to hers''.  I thought many times to myself,  I always knew I was attracted to women (55555, LMAF! love makes a family)!!

 


 


Fonzie
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ONWARD HOPELESS SCIENTISTS

BobSpence wrote:

Do I 'titrate'? What a strange question. What is your obsession with that word? I think I may have once done some actual titration in the chemistry lab way back in high school. I don't quite know what you might mean by that term in a metaphorical sense, since it is not a process that I have had anything to do with since that high school chem lab, and I haven't heard anyone else use it even in some metaphorical sense.

If there really were a God, I can't help thinking he is either a very immoral or perhaps simply uncaring entity, when I look at what is happening in the world today, much of which brings great suffering to people who cannot be in any reasonable judgement be blamed for causing the events. IOW, hapless victims, often children. Your God is a prick, sorry. 

I wlll have to stop now, since I am at a family celebration. I may continue later.

 

Bob,

Don't titrate or build boats huh.  I go back to a little chemistry lab work in high school and college (which I visited only).  Also, I used a slide rule (based on logarithms) - still have it somewhere in case of power failure. We waxed and powdered them, customized them - trying to make a cheap one work like an expensive one.  Also at one time I knew the algorithm for finding square and cube roots.  I don't now - even rusty on manually multiplying, dividing.

I loved to build things, small boats (with rudders), boomerangs (one came back once), model airplanes (probably unknowingly addicted to Ambroid glue), a cross-bow (destroyed it due to liability), a soap box derby (my brother ran it into a tree), coffee table (first at fair but later destroyed due to knife like corners), kite with a light (not much wind at night) (ufo, ha).  

Anyway, I like science.  The latest thing that was given to me to try is called "Sugru" - hacking rubber.  I haven't tried it yet.  Have you?  (I guess that's a "strange question" - so, possibly irritating to a science superfan who is sorting it all out in life's lab).  

I'm not a participant in DIY spiritual speculation however.  You could easily mistake "darkness" for "Light" and be "fooled" by "the fooler".  

As one guy wrote - if you were dropped on stage in the middle of a play totally foreign to you, you would be hard pressed to figure out what was going on, the plot, your role.  This life, world, the spirit world, you yourself (not created by yourself) is much more complicated than the play.  Why, one minute you might be thanking somebody for sharpening your skills and blaspheming throwing firebrands and arrows the next!  You might be like a leaf turning in the fall wind pontificating about others' dropping and cursing the tree.    

I get my information from The One Shepherd, and drink Water from the Rock.  I have submitted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and even been "born anew" into Him.  The Spirit of Life that raised Jesus from the dead is now at work in me.  I have a hope that is real.  I have love for God.  I see meaning in trials.  I understand the devil can make something bad out of anything no matter how good or pure it is.  And I understand there are people like you that drink it all in and are fooled by it all.  And your false science god doesn't give you hope to deal with what you see.  You can't lead with what you don't have - hope and light included.  

So prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Do I 'titrate'? What a strange question. What is your obsession with that word? I think I may have once done some actual titration in the chemistry lab way back in high school. I don't quite know what you might mean by that term in a metaphorical sense, since it is not a process that I have had anything to do with since that high school chem lab, and I haven't heard anyone else use it even in some metaphorical sense.

If there really were a God, I can't help thinking he is either a very immoral or perhaps simply uncaring entity, when I look at what is happening in the world today, much of which brings great suffering to people who cannot be in any reasonable judgement be blamed for causing the events. IOW, hapless victims, often children. Your God is a prick, sorry. 

I wlll have to stop now, since I am at a family celebration. I may continue later.

 

Bob,

Don't titrate or build boats huh.  I go back to a little chemistry lab work in high school and college (which I visited only).  Also, I used a slide rule (based on logarithms) - still have it somewhere in case of power failure. We waxed and powdered them, customized them - trying to make a cheap one work like an expensive one.  Also at one time I knew the algorithm for finding square and cube roots.  I don't now - even rusty on manually multiplying, dividing.

I loved to build things, small boats (with rudders), boomerangs (one came back once), model airplanes (probably unknowingly addicted to Ambroid glue), a cross-bow (destroyed it due to liability), a soap box derby (my brother ran it into a tree), coffee table (first at fair but later destroyed due to knife like corners), kite with a light (not much wind at night) (ufo, ha).  

Anyway, I like science.  The latest thing that was given to me to try is called "Sugru" - hacking rubber.  I haven't tried it yet.  Have you?  (I guess that's a "strange question" - so, possibly irritating to a science superfan who is sorting it all out in life's lab).  

I'm not a participant in DIY spiritual speculation however.  You could easily mistake "darkness" for "Light" and be "fooled" by "the fooler".  

As one guy wrote - if you were dropped on stage in the middle of a play totally foreign to you, you would be hard pressed to figure out what was going on, the plot, your role.  This life, world, the spirit world, you yourself (not created by yourself) is much more complicated than the play.  Why, one minute you might be thanking somebody for sharpening your skills and blaspheming throwing firebrands and arrows the next!  You might be like a leaf turning in the fall wind pontificating about others' dropping and cursing the tree.    

I get my information from The One Shepherd, and drink Water from the Rock.  I have submitted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and even been "born anew" into Him.  The Spirit of Life that raised Jesus from the dead is now at work in me.  I have a hope that is real.  I have love for God.  I see meaning in trials.  I understand the devil can make something bad out of anything no matter how good or pure it is.  And I understand there are people like you that drink it all in and are fooled by it all.  And your false science god doesn't give you hope to deal with what you see.  You can't lead with what you don't have - hope and light included.  

So prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on.  

 

But clearly you accept the results of the speculation of your favorite religious authorities even if you don't DIY.

OF COURSE you BELIEVE absolutely that you are getting your information from THE absolute, ultimate source of TRUTH.

But within the finite and intrinsically FALLIBLE context of your own very finite human mind, you have no way of verifying that information,ie, demonstrating that YOU are not being "fooled by it all". You are caught up in the loop of 'logic' where your absolute certainty of the TRUTH of what you BELIEVE has come from the same source of absolute TRUTH as the information itself, and therefore MUST be TRUE.

The world is full of people who believe in many different things with that same absolute conviction, including of course many variations on religious beliefs. We have NO way as individuals to break out of that loop. Only by debating with others of different conviction can we get ANY guidance as to which is more likely to be 'true'.

That RELATIVE LIKELIHOOD of truth is ultimately the best we can honestly hope for, rather than absolute proof.

This problem has been recognize by many thinkers who have proposed various ways to determine which of conflicting assertions is 'most likely' to be true, or most reasonable to accept as true, the most famous one which comes to mind is Occam's Razor. You may have heard of it. William of Occam was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian.

From the link:

"In science, Occam's Razor is used as a heuristic (discovery tool) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models."

So I am not claiming it is THE verification method of Science, but part of the whole process. See Scientific method.

The fact that Science has made tremendous progress in building a consistent 'picture' of the Universe we inhabit is ultimately the only basis we have for continuing confidence in the methodology. The technology we are relying on to conduct this discussion has been built on the scientific approach, whereas alternative, subjective approaches such as yours has lead to the vast number of inconsistent belief systems that have proliferated around the world through history.

So I can tell YOU back with equal validity to "Prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on." Even though I have been trying to avoid this debate degenerating into a 'mocking match'.

Meanwhile I will carry on guided by the much more reliable Light of Science.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Troll prattled on just as it has all these many years, though it was still quite easy...

 

Quote:
But clearly you accept the results of the speculation of your favorite religious authorities even if you don't DIY. OF COURSE you BELIEVE absolutely that you are getting your information from THE absolute, ultimate source of TRUTH.
god is the source of all Truth (and Light) and the Ultimate Authority, and leaves no room for speculation.  When you've received he gift of absolute Truth, the only thing to do is to believe absolutely in it absolutely.

 

Quote:
But within the finite and intrinsically FALLIBLE context of your own very finite human mind, you have no way of verifying that information,ie, demonstrating that YOU are not being "fooled by it all".
god's Mind is infinite and infallible, and has verified and demonstrated himself through his Word.  The Good Shepherd does not allow his Sheep to be fooled by his Word, but allows goats to fool themselves with their finite minds, and turn away from the Word.  

 

Quote:
The fact that Science has made tremendous progress in building a consistent 'picture' of the Universe we inhabit is ultimately the only basis we have for continuing confidence in the methodology. The technology we are relying on to conduct this discussion has been built on the scientific approach, whereas alternative, subjective approaches such as yours has lead to the vast number of inconsistent belief systems that have proliferated around the world through history.
Science depends on the Uncertainty Principle, but the Word of god titrates with Absolute Certainty.

 

Quote:
Meanwhile I will carry on guided by the much more reliable Light of Science.
The Light of god is eternal, and will shine long after science has been extinguished from its own thermodynamics.  Do you ionize?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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PRICKING THE LOOP OF THE LOGIC SCOOP

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Do I 'titrate'? What a strange question. What is your obsession with that word? I think I may have once done some actual titration in the chemistry lab way back in high school. I don't quite know what you might mean by that term in a metaphorical sense, since it is not a process that I have had anything to do with since that high school chem lab, and I haven't heard anyone else use it even in some metaphorical sense.

If there really were a God, I can't help thinking he is either a very immoral or perhaps simply uncaring entity, when I look at what is happening in the world today, much of which brings great suffering to people who cannot be in any reasonable judgement be blamed for causing the events. IOW, hapless victims, often children. Your God is a prick, sorry. 

I wlll have to stop now, since I am at a family celebration. I may continue later.

 

Bob,

Don't titrate or build boats huh.  I go back to a little chemistry lab work in high school and college (which I visited only).  Also, I used a slide rule (based on logarithms) - still have it somewhere in case of power failure. We waxed and powdered them, customized them - trying to make a cheap one work like an expensive one.  Also at one time I knew the algorithm for finding square and cube roots.  I don't now - even rusty on manually multiplying, dividing.

I loved to build things, small boats (with rudders), boomerangs (one came back once), model airplanes (probably unknowingly addicted to Ambroid glue), a cross-bow (destroyed it due to liability), a soap box derby (my brother ran it into a tree), coffee table (first at fair but later destroyed due to knife like corners), kite with a light (not much wind at night) (ufo, ha).  

Anyway, I like science.  The latest thing that was given to me to try is called "Sugru" - hacking rubber.  I haven't tried it yet.  Have you?  (I guess that's a "strange question" - so, possibly irritating to a science superfan who is sorting it all out in life's lab).  

I'm not a participant in DIY spiritual speculation however.  You could easily mistake "darkness" for "Light" and be "fooled" by "the fooler".  

As one guy wrote - if you were dropped on stage in the middle of a play totally foreign to you, you would be hard pressed to figure out what was going on, the plot, your role.  This life, world, the spirit world, you yourself (not created by yourself) is much more complicated than the play.  Why, one minute you might be thanking somebody for sharpening your skills and blaspheming throwing firebrands and arrows the next!  You might be like a leaf turning in the fall wind pontificating about others' dropping and cursing the tree.    

I get my information from The One Shepherd, and drink Water from the Rock.  I have submitted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and even been "born anew" into Him.  The Spirit of Life that raised Jesus from the dead is now at work in me.  I have a hope that is real.  I have love for God.  I see meaning in trials.  I understand the devil can make something bad out of anything no matter how good or pure it is.  And I understand there are people like you that drink it all in and are fooled by it all.  And your false science god doesn't give you hope to deal with what you see.  You can't lead with what you don't have - hope and light included.  

So prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on.  

 

But clearly you accept the results of the speculation of your favorite religious authorities even if you don't DIY.

OF COURSE you BELIEVE absolutely that you are getting your information from THE absolute, ultimate source of TRUTH.

But within the finite and intrinsically FALLIBLE context of your own very finite human mind, you have no way of verifying that information,ie, demonstrating that YOU are not being "fooled by it all". You are caught up in the loop of 'logic' where your absolute certainty of the TRUTH of what you BELIEVE has come from the same source of absolute TRUTH as the information itself, and therefore MUST be TRUE.

The world is full of people who believe in many different things with that same absolute conviction, including of course many variations on religious beliefs. We have NO way as individuals to break out of that loop. Only by debating with others of different conviction can we get ANY guidance as to which is more likely to be 'true'.

That RELATIVE LIKELIHOOD of truth is ultimately the best we can honestly hope for, rather than absolute proof.

This problem has been recognize by many thinkers who have proposed various ways to determine which of conflicting assertions is 'most likely' to be true, or most reasonable to accept as true, the most famous one which comes to mind is Occam's Razor. You may have heard of it. William of Occam was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian.

From the link:

"In science, Occam's Razor is used as a heuristic (discovery tool) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models."

So I am not claiming it is THE verification method of Science, but part of the whole process. See Scientific method.

The fact that Science has made tremendous progress in building a consistent 'picture' of the Universe we inhabit is ultimately the only basis we have for continuing confidence in the methodology. The technology we are relying on to conduct this discussion has been built on the scientific approach, whereas alternative, subjective approaches such as yours has lead to the vast number of inconsistent belief systems that have proliferated around the world through history.

So I can tell YOU back with equal validity to "Prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on." Even though I have been trying to avoid this debate degenerating into a 'mocking match'.

Meanwhile I will carry on guided by the much more reliable Light of Science.

 

 

 

Bob,

I understand how tradition can get looped - that's a danger - but I think the problem applies lots more to the university world of "teachers teaching teachers how to teach...ahhh...teachers" - remote to experience but big on speculation.  

-"the world is full of people..." (Bob Spence) is that what they call a "straw man" therefore not true or scientific method?  And are you back to honestly "hoping" for relative truth now guided by your science light instead of cursing the gloom and blaming God - like a kid blaming his parents (which when he is aware of  become his own responsibility)?  

True I accept the Word of God as being the Word of God.  It's stayed the same for a lot of years now and yes I can be fooled like you or any person but I am working a different mine here than you.   I am focused on understanding the unchanging Scriptures which claim and prove (to me) to be "God Breathed" - everything they're billed as and cracked up to be and MORE.   I know that's where The Treasure is and keep searching even when the pan doesn't sparkle.  

And I don't think I'm above you (or below either).  Neither do I see where I've prated, mocked or pontificated or been rude to you.  If you can point it out I aim to either explain it from my side or appologize when you can show me where I have "pricked" your scientific bubble or "pricked" something you see as being above and beyond pontificous "pricking".  Maybe you can show me where the discussion started degenerating into a "mocking match".   

(I haven't looked up this razor thing yet but plan to try to see what you see in it)   

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Do I 'titrate'? What a strange question. What is your obsession with that word? I think I may have once done some actual titration in the chemistry lab way back in high school. I don't quite know what you might mean by that term in a metaphorical sense, since it is not a process that I have had anything to do with since that high school chem lab, and I haven't heard anyone else use it even in some metaphorical sense.

If there really were a God, I can't help thinking he is either a very immoral or perhaps simply uncaring entity, when I look at what is happening in the world today, much of which brings great suffering to people who cannot be in any reasonable judgement be blamed for causing the events. IOW, hapless victims, often children. Your God is a prick, sorry. 

I wlll have to stop now, since I am at a family celebration. I may continue later.

 

Bob,

Don't titrate or build boats huh.  I go back to a little chemistry lab work in high school and college (which I visited only).  Also, I used a slide rule (based on logarithms) - still have it somewhere in case of power failure. We waxed and powdered them, customized them - trying to make a cheap one work like an expensive one.  Also at one time I knew the algorithm for finding square and cube roots.  I don't now - even rusty on manually multiplying, dividing.

I loved to build things, small boats (with rudders), boomerangs (one came back once), model airplanes (probably unknowingly addicted to Ambroid glue), a cross-bow (destroyed it due to liability), a soap box derby (my brother ran it into a tree), coffee table (first at fair but later destroyed due to knife like corners), kite with a light (not much wind at night) (ufo, ha).  

Anyway, I like science.  The latest thing that was given to me to try is called "Sugru" - hacking rubber.  I haven't tried it yet.  Have you?  (I guess that's a "strange question" - so, possibly irritating to a science superfan who is sorting it all out in life's lab).  

I'm not a participant in DIY spiritual speculation however.  You could easily mistake "darkness" for "Light" and be "fooled" by "the fooler".  

As one guy wrote - if you were dropped on stage in the middle of a play totally foreign to you, you would be hard pressed to figure out what was going on, the plot, your role.  This life, world, the spirit world, you yourself (not created by yourself) is much more complicated than the play.  Why, one minute you might be thanking somebody for sharpening your skills and blaspheming throwing firebrands and arrows the next!  You might be like a leaf turning in the fall wind pontificating about others' dropping and cursing the tree.    

I get my information from The One Shepherd, and drink Water from the Rock.  I have submitted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and even been "born anew" into Him.  The Spirit of Life that raised Jesus from the dead is now at work in me.  I have a hope that is real.  I have love for God.  I see meaning in trials.  I understand the devil can make something bad out of anything no matter how good or pure it is.  And I understand there are people like you that drink it all in and are fooled by it all.  And your false science god doesn't give you hope to deal with what you see.  You can't lead with what you don't have - hope and light included.  

So prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on.  

 

But clearly you accept the results of the speculation of your favorite religious authorities even if you don't DIY.

OF COURSE you BELIEVE absolutely that you are getting your information from THE absolute, ultimate source of TRUTH.

But within the finite and intrinsically FALLIBLE context of your own very finite human mind, you have no way of verifying that information,ie, demonstrating that YOU are not being "fooled by it all". You are caught up in the loop of 'logic' where your absolute certainty of the TRUTH of what you BELIEVE has come from the same source of absolute TRUTH as the information itself, and therefore MUST be TRUE.

The world is full of people who believe in many different things with that same absolute conviction, including of course many variations on religious beliefs. We have NO way as individuals to break out of that loop. Only by debating with others of different conviction can we get ANY guidance as to which is more likely to be 'true'.

That RELATIVE LIKELIHOOD of truth is ultimately the best we can honestly hope for, rather than absolute proof.

This problem has been recognize by many thinkers who have proposed various ways to determine which of conflicting assertions is 'most likely' to be true, or most reasonable to accept as true, the most famous one which comes to mind is Occam's Razor. You may have heard of it. William of Occam was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian.

From the link:

"In science, Occam's Razor is used as a heuristic (discovery tool) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models."

So I am not claiming it is THE verification method of Science, but part of the whole process. See Scientific method.

The fact that Science has made tremendous progress in building a consistent 'picture' of the Universe we inhabit is ultimately the only basis we have for continuing confidence in the methodology. The technology we are relying on to conduct this discussion has been built on the scientific approach, whereas alternative, subjective approaches such as yours has lead to the vast number of inconsistent belief systems that have proliferated around the world through history.

So I can tell YOU back with equal validity to "Prate on.   Or paste on.  Or mock on.  Or pontificate on." Even though I have been trying to avoid this debate degenerating into a 'mocking match'.

Meanwhile I will carry on guided by the much more reliable Light of Science.

 

 

 

Bob,

I understand how tradition can get looped - that's a danger - but I think the problem applies lots more to the university world of "teachers teaching teachers how to teach...ahhh...teachers" - remote to experience but big on speculation.  

There is no loop in teachers passing on knowledge which can include knowledge of how to teach to their students who eventually beome teachers and pass it on to the next generation. No 'loop', just a standard progression from generation to generation.  You are pontificating again.

You also continue to demonstrate how your pre-conceived beliefs and assumptions color your perception of what I am saying, distorting it to fit those assumptions.

Fonzie wrote:

-"the world is full of people..." (Bob Spence) is that what they call a "straw man" therefore not true or scientific method?  And are you back to honestly "hoping" for relative truth now guided by your science light instead of cursing the gloom and blaming God - like a kid blaming his parents (which when he is aware of  become his own responsibility)?  

Not in any sense a 'straw-man'

Do you not accept that many other people also claim that their beliefs are true because they are the 'Word of God'? I don't have resort to Science here, just using Logic and attempting to prick your protective bubble of faith, but I see, as I expected, that the bubble you have wrapped yourself in is too strong. You may even claim that its strength 'proves' it must be true. The only 'gloom' I see is the darkness of ignorance all you God addicts are drowning in...

I would never blame the non-existent entity you label God, that would be foolish. And you are repeating this claim that I am using my own authority as the basis of my own knowledge ( at least I think that is close to what you are saying).

Fonzie wrote:

True I accept the Word of God as being the Word of God.  It's stayed the same for a lot of years now and yes I can be fooled like you or any person but I am working a different mine here than you.   I am focused on understanding the unchanging Scriptures which claim and prove (to me) to be "God Breathed" - everything they're billed as and cracked up to be and MORE.   I know that's where The Treasure is and keep searching even when the pan doesn't sparkle.  

And I don't think I'm above you (or below either).  Neither do I see where I've prated, mocked or pontificated or been rude to you.  If you can point it out I aim to either explain it from my side or appologize when you can show me where I have "pricked" your scientific bubble or "pricked" something you see as being above and beyond pontificous "pricking".  Maybe you can show me where the discussion started degenerating into a "mocking match".   

(I haven't looked up this razor thing yet but plan to try to see what you see in it)   

 

I haven't said you have been rude to me, but your easy dismissal of my assertions comes very close to 'mocking' in my eyes, but I don't expect you to see that through your God-colored glasses. And your (perhaps unconcious) arrogance in assuming the automatic Truth of your ideas about the 'Word of God', comes very close to 'pontificating' IMHO.

I am genuinely a little surprised you haven't come across any reference to Ockham's Razor before. It dates back to the 14th century and was devised by a priest. More evidence that you seem to have not been exposed to much teaching about the world and how human understanding has progressed over time. Helps to explain how deeply you were able to fall into your beliefs, in contrast to how my much wider education helped me avoid falling into that comfortable trap.

Someone so deeply into the "God Delusion" as you appear to be, is inevitably going to find it virtually impossible to accept even the faint possibility that they may be so deluded, so I may be unfair to the extent that when you appear to be 'mocking' or 'pontificating', from your point-of-view you are merely stating the Truth to someone (me) who you see as 'blinded' by their 'faith' in Science. I am not in any way angry at you, just a little sad that you have fallen so hard for some ancient nonsense. I feel like just tip-toeing out of the room and leaving you with the comfort you clearly get from your beliefs, mistaken as they are.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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THROUGH THE TULIPS BABY

BobSpence wrote:

 

I am genuinely a little surprised you haven't come across any reference to Ockham's Razor before. It dates back to the 14th century and was devised by a priest. More evidence that you seem to have not been exposed to much teaching about the world and how human understanding has progressed over time. Helps to explain how deeply you were able to fall into your beliefs, in contrast to how my much wider education helped me avoid falling into that comfortable trap.

Someone so deeply into the "God Delusion" as you appear to be, is inevitably going to find it virtually impossible to accept even the faint possibility that they may be so deluded, so I may be unfair to the extent that when you appear to be 'mocking' or 'pontificating', from your point-of-view you are merely stating the Truth to someone (me) who you see as 'blinded' by their 'faith' in Science. I am not in any way angry at you, just a little sad that you have fallen so hard for some ancient nonsense. I feel like just tip-toeing out of the room and leaving you with the comfort you clearly get from your beliefs, mistaken as they are.

 

Bob,

No need to be sad at all.  I am far more happily trapped,  far more deeply fulfilled, not a little comforted, infinitely hopeful and far more confidently secure than I could have ever imagined to be. And it's getting better and better. 

We all learn things we are interested in (you/me//Vas/Ockham) at the expense of being ignorant of an infinite universe (NO NOT university Bob) of other things.  Whatever it is that we are each familiar with is nothing that even begins to "blip" with what's out there to know.  You haven't even "pricked" the molecule when it comes to knowledge as your much wider education would hopefully tell you.  

Your description of how you have gone about assessing me being "trapped" - and you being delivered by your "much wider education" is interesting and maybe material for a scientific study. But we'll of course keep it simple like a prick from the 14th century razor:  A truly wide education would reveal to the widely educated a much WIDER expanding space of unknown unexplored galaxies of knowledge - leaving the widely educated class pupil of our day sort of isolated and  not more "deeply aware" than a water bug floating on Lake Superior - about to be pricked by the much wider flying bill of a savy seagull.

And all the while I'm just ignorant enough to be comforted, ok I admit,  by the One Who Spoke Heaven and Earth into existence and sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins, be Raised from the dead, and come and habitat with us here now on the stinky ball - even while you sadly view me with disdain from the lofty comfort of your wide 19??/20?? education...which has taught you to tip toe right past eternal spiritual opportunity - and call that a means of transportation.  

I don't think Ben Hur would agree, but that's just me.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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 Ben Hur? Another

Ben Hur? Another fantasy.

While I really am a lttle sad to see you so caught up in your delusion, I am only a little sad because I do indeed realize that within that delusion you will be very happy, just like someone addicted to an ideal physical drug...

My sadness is mainly because I value TRUTH, even when it can be less comforting than our delusions.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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SEVERAL SAD SORRY SOURCES

BobSpence wrote:

Ben Hur? Another fantasy.

While I really am a lttle sad to see you so caught up in your delusion, I am only a little sad because I do indeed realize that within that delusion you will be very happy, just like someone addicted to an ideal physical drug...

My sadness is mainly because I value TRUTH, even when it can be less comforting than our delusions.

 

 

 

Bob,

I'm sure your "sadness" is a many splendored thing with several roots: - trusting in your own mind, trusting in what you consider your wide education, trusting in other "self- truster trustees", trusting in your false ideas of "truth" - just to name a few.  (Proverbs 28.26)

I think saddness may well be your best hope for escape Bob.

 

 

 

 


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It's a green eyed monster with 'no' basis in reality

 

   Alert  bulletin board   Addressed to ::  Omni -  OFF Site --

 

 

    Re  ::  Caption  reads : Beware of Jealousy . .   It's a green eyed monster with no basis in reality

 

 


 

 

 

 

In Parshah Bereishit (Parshah Bereishit) Ch. 2:24 it clearly says:

 

    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

 

And the New Testament record quotes these very words, an example in Gospel of Saint Mark 10:7-8, in so concluding “So they are no longer two, but one.”

 

 

  Let me know, You see,  I've already  d o t t e d  m y  '' i '' s  a n d  c r o s s e d  m y  '' t '' s , O t a y !

 

  

    Thank you for checking this all out. It's all good fodder for conversation and real discourse, at least  I'd always think  .  .  Hello   . .  Hello  ?

 

 



   

  Other  Off - site ::

 

   Re  ::  Occasionally critique of it, that is more consequential than what is implied by ANYONE!

     (( Occasionally critique of it, that is more consequential than what is implied from ANYONE! ))

   One  day   I  plan on holding up a little one from the Nursery,  I DO NOT need to stay in some holding pattern  for much longer,  can-not  wait  to make time to talk. . .

   See:: Uploaded  Image . . .

     

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Ben Hur? Another fantasy.

While I really am a lttle sad to see you so caught up in your delusion, I am only a little sad because I do indeed realize that within that delusion you will be very happy, just like someone addicted to an ideal physical drug...

My sadness is mainly because I value TRUTH, even when it can be less comforting than our delusions.

 

Bob,

I'm sure your "sadness" is a many splendored thing with several roots: - trusting in your own mind, trusting in what you consider your wide education, trusting in other "self- truster trustees", trusting in your false ideas of "truth" - just to name a few.  (Proverbs 28.26)

I think saddness may well be your best hope for escape Bob. 

its much simpler than that - I simply have a normal human empathy for my fellow human beings, and seeing someone so blinded by belief to a proper understanding of reality just triggers the little sadness I referred to. If you refuse to trust your own mind to guide your understanding, but have to trust an ancient book, that makes it a little sadder.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BAD SAD SCIENCE EXPERIENCE EXPERIMENT

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Ben Hur? Another fantasy.

While I really am a lttle sad to see you so caught up in your delusion, I am only a little sad because I do indeed realize that within that delusion you will be very happy, just like someone addicted to an ideal physical drug...

My sadness is mainly because I value TRUTH, even when it can be less comforting than our delusions.

 

Bob,

I'm sure your "sadness" is a many splendored thing with several roots: - trusting in your own mind, trusting in what you consider your wide education, trusting in other "self- truster trustees", trusting in your false ideas of "truth" - just to name a few.  (Proverbs 28.26)

I think saddness may well be your best hope for escape Bob. 

its much simpler than that - I simply have a normal human empathy for my fellow human beings, and seeing someone so blinded by belief to a proper understanding of reality just triggers the little sadness I referred to. If you refuse to trust your own mind to guide your understanding, but have to trust an ancient book, that makes it a little sadder.

 

 

Bob,

Yes you are a "mainstream world thinker" (broadly educated) - does it ever bother you that you are being so carried along by the current of world thinking?  Does it look to you like the world you see (and is carrying you along) has come through with its promises to its dedicaed subscribers?  If it does - you must be really working at being unobservant and blind to reality.  

And what about all the examples of people who went..."I did it my way" and where "that way" ended up  (just from a physical world point of view - without even speculating about after death);  Or do I see you being blinded to that as well?

It is a phenomenon that can be re-created and is even scientific:  if you are looking for something in the wrong place you won't find it.  And if you won't be honest about the experimental results - it's bad science.

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie,you continue to

Fonzie,

you continue to demonstrate how you have NO idea of what kind of 'world' I see myself inhabiting - where do you get all this 'mainstream world thinker', 'the current of world thinking 'promises to dedicated subscribers' nonsense? I think some of those ideas would match aspects of YOUR world much better than what I see. They certainly don't correspond to mine. That would help to explain how you keep coming up with such fantasies - they are distorted versions of what YOU experience/perceive.

There are countless different 'currents of thought' permeating the world, even if you just consider the fantasy world of 'faith', yours being just one of them. MY 'world' is definitely NOT remotely 'mainstream', not while it includes such strong elements of atheism and general skepticism.

You are obviously firmly subscribed to yours and its promises.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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The Troll knew It had nothing of substance to offer in the face of Science and Reason, only more jesus-laced mastication....

Quote:
you continue to demonstrate how you have NO idea of what kind of 'world' I see myself inhabiting - where do you get all this 'mainstream world thinker', 'the current of world thinking 'promises to dedicated subscribers' nonsense? I think some of those ideas would match aspects of YOUR world much better than what I see. They certainly don't correspond to mine. That would help to explain how you keep coming up with such fantasies - they are distorted versions of what YOU experience/perceive.
I see you inhabiting a world without jesus, and I think that's a bad idea.  I experience jesus, who is the Truth and the Light, so any experience without jesus is a distortion of the Truth, with bad Lighting.

Quote:
There are countless different 'currents of thought' permeating the world, even if you just consider the fantasy world of 'faith', yours being just one of them. MY 'world' is definitely NOT remotely 'mainstream', not while it includes such strong elements of atheism and general skepticism. You are obviously firmly subscribed to yours and its promises.
"Many are invited, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).  Only a few accept the Wheat of christ, but the Chaff is mainstream, even if it has many currents.  

I am indeed subscribed to the Promise of Salvation, which god put his own son up as collateral.  What does science promise you, except mud evolving into chimpanzees?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Poetry corner

 

 

    Constant through the trial and the change, Love remains hun, Love remains

  Poetry corner

 

 

  http://tinyurl.com/l8h2uft

  Do you think I will EVER get a chance to spend some time with you . . ?  Oh,  Hun,  .. she knew she was very foolish ; WELL, at least you'll get you to know more about my personality a bit,  IF NOTHING MUCH ELSE.

      I shouldnt forget  this is mainly Attn. T0 --  "Broom-Closet of a church"

 

 

 

 

 




  Omni-Site (e.g. --  Real  Life)   P.S. -- I have seen the hurt in the eyes of a  certain female  on five separate occasions.  What kind of  a  monster  she must think me be,  by this time . .  'the Rule' ?



                                                  P.S. -- I have seen the hurt in the eyes of a  certain female  on five separate occasions.  What kind of  a  monster  she must think me be,  by this time . .  'the Rule' ?
 


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A NO KNOW SITUATION

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie,

you continue to demonstrate how you have NO idea of what kind of 'world' I see myself inhabiting - where do you get all this 'mainstream world thinker', 'the current of world thinking 'promises to dedicated subscribers' nonsense? I think some of those ideas would match aspects of YOUR world much better than what I see. They certainly don't correspond to mine. That would help to explain how you keep coming up with such fantasies - they are distorted versions of what YOU experience/perceive.

There are countless different 'currents of thought' permeating the world, even if you just consider the fantasy world of 'faith', yours being just one of them. MY 'world' is definitely NOT remotely 'mainstream', not while it includes such strong elements of atheism and general skepticism.

You are obviously firmly subscribed to yours and its promises.

 

 

 

Bob,

 

The "mainstream" realm of thinking you are in the current of... is a common world effort to live "without God".  I know you don't "KNOW GOD" (even remotely) since you don't even believe GOD IS.  

Since you are wrong about the most fundamental Cornerstone of Life:  GOD IS - it follows that, sure I admit I don't know the world you see yourself inhabiting; BUT ALSO YOU don't know the world YOU THINK you see yourself inhabiting because God hasn't revealed it to you.  Plus your false world view is cloaked in self-deception.  

If you don't have the right point of reference you can't get accurate information - nor can you get accurate results in your life experiment.

         

      slicing and dicing with the Occam's Razor:

FACT:  YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD

FACT:  GOD IS

RESULT:  YOUR WORLD VIEW IS UNKNOWN TO YOU

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie,

you continue to demonstrate how you have NO idea of what kind of 'world' I see myself inhabiting - where do you get all this 'mainstream world thinker', 'the current of world thinking 'promises to dedicated subscribers' nonsense? I think some of those ideas would match aspects of YOUR world much better than what I see. They certainly don't correspond to mine. That would help to explain how you keep coming up with such fantasies - they are distorted versions of what YOU experience/perceive.

There are countless different 'currents of thought' permeating the world, even if you just consider the fantasy world of 'faith', yours being just one of them. MY 'world' is definitely NOT remotely 'mainstream', not while it includes such strong elements of atheism and general skepticism.

You are obviously firmly subscribed to yours and its promises.

 

Bob,

The "mainstream" realm of thinking you are in the current of... is a common world effort to live "without God".  I know you don't "KNOW GOD" (even remotely) since you don't even believe GOD IS.  

Just where do get this nonsense?? I repeat, I am NOT in any "mainstream" realm of thinking. A 'common world effort to "live without God" '? More fantasy.

Fonzie wrote:

Since you are wrong about the most fundamental Cornerstone of Life:  GOD IS - it follows that, sure I admit I don't know the world you see yourself inhabiting; BUT ALSO YOU don't know the world YOU THINK you see yourself inhabiting because God hasn't revealed it to you.  Plus your false world view is cloaked in self-deception.  

If you don't have the right point of reference you can't get accurate information - nor can you get accurate results in your life experiment.

         

      slicing and dicing with the Occam's Razor:

FACT:  YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD

FACT:  GOD IS

RESULT:  YOUR WORLD VIEW IS UNKNOWN TO YOU

See, here is where we get stuck: you are totally convinced of your perception of your 'truths' and the validity of your 'reference point', while my lifetime (more than half a century) of experience, reading, discussion and debate has lead me to a very different point of view, which I am as personally convinced is a valid a quide to truth as you believe your vision is. Strength of conviction provides no way of resolving which conviction, if any, has sufficient grounds to consider it to be TRUE.

Simply repeating assertions such as 'GOD IS' is a FACT proves nothing.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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< Space > DP Double Post

  < Space >


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> Interesting Caveat and Background to Sampson's birth . .

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBu8h1Js5Fg {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBu8h1Js5Fg}

  Teeny-Bopper is our new born queen (..lol) Teeny-Bopper is our new born queen *laugh*

  Serious moment  though . .

 > Interesting Caveat and Background to Sampson's birth . .

  >  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15288?page=78   Nu # 3918  and/or http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15288?page=78#comment-413941
 

    For those who may never have known much from the Faith, . .

 '' Now there was a certain man from Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren and had no children. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. Now therefore, please be careful not to drink wine or similar drink, and not to eat anything unclean. For behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. And no razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.” So the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A Man of God came to me, and His countenance was like the countenance of the Angel of God, very awesome; but I did not ask Him where He was from, and He did not tell me His name. And He said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. Now drink no wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’”  Then Manoah prayed to the Lord, and said, “O my Lord, please let the Man of G-d whom You sent come to us again and teach us what we shall do for the child who will be born.”And God listened to the voice of Manoah, and the Angel of God came to the woman again as she was sitting in the field; but Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 Then the woman ran in haste and told her husband, and said to him, “Look, the Man who came to me the other day has just now appeared to me!” 11 So Manoah arose and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he said to Him, “Are You the Man who spoke to this woman?” And He said, “I am. 12 Manoah said, “Now let Your words come to pass! What will be the boy’s rule of life, and his work?” 13 So the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, “Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor may she drink wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean. All that I commanded her let her observe.” 15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.” 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, “Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord.” (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?” 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife . . ''

 



 



    Any place Other than this site  - - 

   0ff-site Troubles (0ff - site) I cannot help but to feel for  the girls  and for myself, who are always "left out of the loop" . . Always left guessing what any  one thing could mean . .

 

 

  Quiet the probable chatter in your MIND . . (Off-site)

  Man, The commentary creates itself . . But, Interesting Caveat  about what ended up happening to Sampson (I'm sure his folks and those poor parents could attest to the heartache, in this example of him)

  p.s. --   Narcissistic  naysayers  said once,  "And many of them said, Surely He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear  him?  Though having tasted of the heavenly gift  ( ~ smirk ) .   Nothing tell me it's against the law seek something that is of pretty much of no advantage to self, or have to worry about every little post either.   !! The commentary creates itself !!  Image part of remark or comment  View  Image or .Gif

 

 

 

   http://media.tumblr.com/fd5c44653c41a4868019ea9ff9b13fc9/tumblr_inline_n5kwxotKkP1qb7oam.gif

 

 



 

   It's not-to waste anybody's time  but curious;  I'm curious what lurkers would make of this image (below) IF I were to say add a Mozillia Ad, what could you begin to read into that for some off-site lurkers, oh, what one  would make of that  ?!??

   

 

    

   http://tinypic.com/m/icr3ux/3


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ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST IS A NICE WAY TO BE STUCK BOB

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie,

you continue to demonstrate how you have NO idea of what kind of 'world' I see myself inhabiting - where do you get all this 'mainstream world thinker', 'the current of world thinking 'promises to dedicated subscribers' nonsense? I think some of those ideas would match aspects of YOUR world much better than what I see. They certainly don't correspond to mine. That would help to explain how you keep coming up with such fantasies - they are distorted versions of what YOU experience/perceive.

There are countless different 'currents of thought' permeating the world, even if you just consider the fantasy world of 'faith', yours being just one of them. MY 'world' is definitely NOT remotely 'mainstream', not while it includes such strong elements of atheism and general skepticism.

You are obviously firmly subscribed to yours and its promises.

 

Bob,

The "mainstream" realm of thinking you are in the current of... is a common world effort to live "without God".  I know you don't "KNOW GOD" (even remotely) since you don't even believe GOD IS.  

Just where do get this nonsense?? I repeat, I am NOT in any "mainstream" realm of thinking. A 'common world effort to "live without God" '? More fantasy.

Fonzie wrote:

Since you are wrong about the most fundamental Cornerstone of Life:  GOD IS - it follows that, sure I admit I don't know the world you see yourself inhabiting; BUT ALSO YOU don't know the world YOU THINK you see yourself inhabiting because God hasn't revealed it to you.  Plus your false world view is cloaked in self-deception.  

If you don't have the right point of reference you can't get accurate information - nor can you get accurate results in your life experiment.

         

      slicing and dicing with the Occam's Razor:

FACT:  YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD

FACT:  GOD IS

RESULT:  YOUR WORLD VIEW IS UNKNOWN TO YOU

See, here is where we get stuck: you are totally convinced of your perception of your 'truths' and the validity of your 'reference point', while my lifetime (more than half a century) of experience, reading, discussion and debate has lead me to a very different point of view, which I am as personally convinced is a valid a quide to truth as you believe your vision is. Strength of conviction provides no way of resolving which conviction, if any, has sufficient grounds to consider it to be TRUE.

Simply repeating assertions such as 'GOD IS' is a FACT proves nothing.

 

Bob,

You really can't prove your point of view either (even though my faith seems Fact to me and yours seems Fact to you.  I think you have convinced yourself yours is fact and mine is fantasy - but your viewpoint is speculation when you get down to it.  I think you have proven your view to yourself and have faith in it - but that's the point where you fool yourself thinking it's all proven fact.  Your view is a matter of faith too - or are you going to continue to fool yourself that it isn't: a 50 + year investment in speculation?   

So then the question is, who has the better faith - you or me?  Well, I know what you've decided and you know what I've decided.  I'm going with the Living Way and the Living Faith.  The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.  The last bitterness I had was when I was caught in one of those "countless currents of thought permeating the world" you swim in.  You can have it all if you insist.  It's your faith not mine.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Off site we all are left speculating with no communication

  

   

    There can be only one (View LDS photo, Above)

I wrote :: Nothing tell me it's against the law seek something that is of pretty much of no advantage to self, or have to worry about every little post either. 

   Please allow me to help by putting some punctuation in a sentence from this page, if I may be allowed to, as is follows (typeos) ::

 
  Grammatical errors  -

  Large typing errors apparently  -- Maybe the introduction of punctuation, couldn't hurt  : '' Nothing ! Tell me it's against the law, [TO] seek something that is of, pretty much no advantage to self; or [do I] have to worry about every little post either ??!?? ''
 

 

 Off site  ( Attn. -- This might surprise you, hoss, but most of us here have lives as well, and have to post when it's convenient . . )  --  We all are left speculating with no communication

     (No Subject)

   Re ::  No Subject

 

  View Image --

   

    http://tinypic.com/r/25k7yth/8
 

  The future's family .. well,  she always with all these unexpected surprises  I take it  . .



  p.p.s.  --  Other  Off - site --

      Feel like I only miss out on getting a chance to say Hi. Havent made it over, which I am so sorry for that  . .

 

   Edit --  Edit :: Large typing errors apparently in a few posts on this page !! Striking Grammatical errors DUE TO  BAD  Typing!! And added the "Highlander hoodie (Image)''

 

     F i n


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote: Bob,You

Fonzie wrote:
 

Bob,

You really can't prove your point of view either (even though my faith seems Fact to me and yours seems Fact to you.  I think you have convinced yourself yours is fact and mine is fantasy - but your viewpoint is speculation when you get down to it.  I think you have proven your view to yourself and have faith in it - but that's the point where you fool yourself thinking it's all proven fact.  Your view is a matter of faith too - or are you going to continue to fool yourself that it isn't: a 50 + year investment in speculation?   

So then the question is, who has the better faith - you or me?  Well, I know what you've decided and you know what I've decided.  I'm going with the Living Way and the Living Faith.  The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.  The last bitterness I had was when I was caught in one of those "countless currents of thought permeating the world" you swim in.  You can have it all if you insist.  It's your faith not mine.   

I would never claim I could 'prove' the validity and accuracy of my position, but I could show how it is based on multiple sources of information about the world, the history of human culture and society, the current state of Scientific knowledge, etc, so has a far higher likelihood of corresponding to reality than yours, being based as it is merely on the purely subjective interpretation of ancient writings, 'what your heart knows'. Yours is the one based on the self-serving mechanism of faith, mine is based on whatever evidence I can gather about external reality. You are entitled to chose which 'current of thought' to follow, and throw its buzzwords and slogans ('The Living Way', 'The Living Faith') around. There are certainly many varieties of 'faith', driving many more 'currents of thought' than with a science and empirical knowledge based outlook. 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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ALL THE PANS OUT JUST TO MAKE ONE COOKIE

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

Bob,

You really can't prove your point of view either (even though my faith seems Fact to me and yours seems Fact to you.  I think you have convinced yourself yours is fact and mine is fantasy - but your viewpoint is speculation when you get down to it.  I think you have proven your view to yourself and have faith in it - but that's the point where you fool yourself thinking it's all proven fact.  Your view is a matter of faith too - or are you going to continue to fool yourself that it isn't: a 50 + year investment in speculation?   

So then the question is, who has the better faith - you or me?  Well, I know what you've decided and you know what I've decided.  I'm going with the Living Way and the Living Faith.  The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.  The last bitterness I had was when I was caught in one of those "countless currents of thought permeating the world" you swim in.  You can have it all if you insist.  It's your faith not mine.   

I would never claim I could 'prove' the validity and accuracy of my position, but I can show how it is based on multiple sources of information about the world, the history of human culture and society, the current state of Scientific knowledge, etc, so has a far higher likelihood of corresponding to reality than yours, being based as it is merely on the purely subjective interpretation of ancient writings, 'what your heart knows'. Yours is the one based on the self-serving mechanism of faith, mine is based on whatever evidence I can gather about external reality. You are entitled to chose which 'current of thought' to follow, and throw its buzzwords and slogans ('The Living Way', 'The Living Faith') around. There are certainly many varieties of 'faith', driving many more 'currents of thought' than with a science and empirical knowledge based outlook.

 

 

 

Bob,

I know what you mean about empty churchy "buzzwords", "phoning it in" and letting the relationship with God degenerate to "autopilot".  And you were more honest about the fact that you can't "prove" your position than I expected.

You are right - in the realm of "faiths" there are many to sort out.  And in the realm of "faith in the gospel of Christ" it is potentially very tricky, and there are forces within and without that would interfere with the navigation;  and it is a trip that needs navigation.  In other words I can't afford to be asleep at the switch.  I have to spiritually "concealed carry" in effect - armor up, watch, guard, be alert.  In one sense it's like a garden - as in being alert for weeds; in another sense it's a war - being on guard for arrows and trouble.  I aim to take every thought captive and interrogate it with respect to the Word of God and in the Light of the Holy Spirit.  As you say these could be just "buzz words" (having only an appearance of something) or I could be using them to describe the reality of my experience.

I mention this to describe to you that I am working at sorting this out in a similar way to you working out your life views, scientific, philosophic or otherwise.  To your view I could be a shallow relligious babbler repeating religious jingle to try to parade a form of religiousness - or, it could be describing the real Life and Light within me and the real battle on the road of faith in Christ.  You have your view of that from the experience you have sorted out and will write it off that way or just think of it as a fantasy pursuit or probably at best just a different pursuit.  

Paul at the Areopagas addressed men who were thinkers looking for some new idea - and were religious in their pursuit of it.  He said they had this altar to an "unknown God" - WHICH God, the God Who Created the world and everything in it  Paul wanted to tell them about.  Some of them accepted what he said - others wanted to kill him.  If you had been there I don't think you would have wanted to kill him (although I have seen some around this website that seem like they would).  Only you could react as you react - but Paul was bringing the gospel and LORD I believe in to Greek thinkers like you.  And Paul was no dumb cookie.  

 

 

 

 

 


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Every aspect of life is all about real life & intensely personal

 

Must dash!  Cat's litter box issues to handle, speaking of real life . . Scout's Honor

 

  Re :: Every aspect of life is all about real life and intensely personal

   A little less significance on this post  . . 

  No Subject --

 (No Subject)

 

    Oh,  Should say the image has no intentional double entendre no more than the given term "aged out" would, K? 

  Fun, Fun time video  --

  YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1mboWYn0c {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1mboWYn0c}  Back in the day it was good clean fun! If you give it half a chance! What a world ( ,lol )  The girls did the mash ( . . what?!? ) ?
 

    Off -site ::   " Big  Hi! ''

   Man ..  You guys are sssoooooooo heartless,  . .  and what am I supposed to say to her then ?  

  

 

 

    p.s.  --   Seriously,  That is  Aligning with the future family   ( See ::  Uploaded  Images on the top ones , Above )

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

Bob,

You really can't prove your point of view either (even though my faith seems Fact to me and yours seems Fact to you.  I think you have convinced yourself yours is fact and mine is fantasy - but your viewpoint is speculation when you get down to it.  I think you have proven your view to yourself and have faith in it - but that's the point where you fool yourself thinking it's all proven fact.  Your view is a matter of faith too - or are you going to continue to fool yourself that it isn't: a 50 + year investment in speculation?   

So then the question is, who has the better faith - you or me?  Well, I know what you've decided and you know what I've decided.  I'm going with the Living Way and the Living Faith.  The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.  The last bitterness I had was when I was caught in one of those "countless currents of thought permeating the world" you swim in.  You can have it all if you insist.  It's your faith not mine.   

I would never claim I could 'prove' the validity and accuracy of my position, but I can show how it is based on multiple sources of information about the world, the history of human culture and society, the current state of Scientific knowledge, etc, so has a far higher likelihood of corresponding to reality than yours, being based as it is merely on the purely subjective interpretation of ancient writings, 'what your heart knows'. Yours is the one based on the self-serving mechanism of faith, mine is based on whatever evidence I can gather about external reality. You are entitled to chose which 'current of thought' to follow, and throw its buzzwords and slogans ('The Living Way', 'The Living Faith') around. There are certainly many varieties of 'faith', driving many more 'currents of thought' than with a science and empirical knowledge based outlook.

 

 

 

Bob,

I know what you mean about empty churchy "buzzwords", "phoning it in" and letting the relationship with God degenerate to "autopilot".  And you were more honest about the fact that you can't "prove" your position than I expected.

You are right - in the realm of "faiths" there are many to sort out.  And in the realm of "faith in the gospel of Christ" it is potentially very tricky, and there are forces within and without that would interfere with the navigation;  and it is a trip that needs navigation.  In other words I can't afford to be asleep at the switch.  I have to spiritually "concealed carry" in effect - armor up, watch, guard, be alert.  In one sense it's like a garden - as in being alert for weeds; in another sense it's a war - being on guard for arrows and trouble.  I aim to take every thought captive and interrogate it with respect to the Word of God and in the Light of the Holy Spirit.  As you say these could be just "buzz words" (having only an appearance of something) or I could be using them to describe the reality of my experience.

I mention this to describe to you that I am working at sorting this out in a similar way to you working out your life views, scientific, philosophic or otherwise.  To your view I could be a shallow relligious babbler repeating religious jingle to try to parade a form of religiousness - or, it could be describing the real Life and Light within me and the real battle on the road of faith in Christ.  You have your view of that from the experience you have sorted out and will write it off that way or just think of it as a fantasy pursuit or probably at best just a different pursuit.  

Paul at the Areopagas addressed men who were thinkers looking for some new idea - and were religious in their pursuit of it.  He said they had this altar to an "unknown God" - WHICH God, the God Who Created the world and everything in it  Paul wanted to tell them about.  Some of them accepted what he said - others wanted to kill him.  If you had been there I don't think you would have wanted to kill him (although I have seen some around this website that seem like they would).  Only you could react as you react - but Paul was bringing the gospel and LORD I believe in to Greek thinkers like you.  And Paul was no dumb cookie.  

There is NO solid evidence that any being with truly God-like power exists, let alone a being that corresponds to any of the versions of GOD described in the bible. It also can't be proved tp not exist, but a lot of logical gymnastics are required to fit it to the world we observe and experience, especially to 'justify' the sufferring we see, much of which is inflicted on children, including the youngest. You demonstrated this when you tried to justify the failure of the Bible to clearly condemn slavery, and again when you tried to explain why things like Ebola exist.

Your personal feelings and/or intuitions can prove nothing by themselves, but you repeatedly assert that that is how you 'know' GOD is a 'fact'. With every response, you seem to confirm the impression that you adopted your beliefs as a package deal without any serious consideration or even awareness of the many such apparent logical and/or moral difficulties.

How would such a being come to exist in the first place? The natural development/evolution of the world we see is at least as plausible as that such a complex being capable of creating everything just 'came into existence', or, more of a stretch, has always existed. If a GOD needs no explanation for its existence, no 'creator', then neither should we need any such explanation for the existence of merely mortal life in any form.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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Following the simple formula of ["god"/"jesus"/"word" + blather], it was still quite easy to duplicate the Troll's nonsense...

Quote:
There is NO solid evidence that any being with truly God-like power exists, let alone a being that corresponds to any of the versions of GOD described in the bible.
The bible IS the solid evidence for god, since it's the word of god.

 

Quote:
It can't be disproved, but much logical gymnastics are required to fit it to the world we observe and experience, especially to 'justify' the sufferring we see, much of which is inflicted on children, including the youngest.
It can't be disproved, because god is a Fact (the Truth), and a Fact is un-disprovable.

 

Quote:
You demonstrated this when you tried to justify the failure of the Bible to clearly condemn slavery, and again when you tried to explain why things like Ebola exist.
god's ways are not always our ways, but all good things come from god, so we know it will turn out good in the end, even if we can't explain it now.  

 

Quote:
With every response, you seem to confirm the impression that you adopted your beliefs as a package deal without any serious consideration or even awareness of the many such apparent logical and/or moral difficulties.
I did accept the package deal up front, and found the contents of the package (god + jesus + holy spirit) satisfactory, and have only got better with time.   If you first accept jesus on faith, you won't find any logical/moral difficulties, either.
 

Quote:
If a GOD needs no explanation for its existence, no 'creator', then neither should we need any such explanation for the existence of merely mortal life in any form.
We are creations, and creations require a Creator. god is by definition un-created, so requires no Creator.  

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


BobSpence
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 Saying that "we are

 Saying that "we are creations", and therefore require a creator, is simply an naked asertion/assumption - there is no logicl necessity tha we cannot have arisen from a puely natural process such as evoltionary natural selection, which is a combination of purely random processes of mutation which can generate any physically possible structure followed by a NON-random process of automatic selection by trial-and-error, where the generated structure which  is most successful in its own survival and replication becomes the current version. 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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FAITH IS FAITH - SOMETHING MANKIND CAN AND DOES HAVE

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

Bob,

You really can't prove your point of view either (even though my faith seems Fact to me and yours seems Fact to you.  I think you have convinced yourself yours is fact and mine is fantasy - but your viewpoint is speculation when you get down to it.  I think you have proven your view to yourself and have faith in it - but that's the point where you fool yourself thinking it's all proven fact.  Your view is a matter of faith too - or are you going to continue to fool yourself that it isn't: a 50 + year investment in speculation?   

So then the question is, who has the better faith - you or me?  Well, I know what you've decided and you know what I've decided.  I'm going with the Living Way and the Living Faith.  The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.  The last bitterness I had was when I was caught in one of those "countless currents of thought permeating the world" you swim in.  You can have it all if you insist.  It's your faith not mine.   

I would never claim I could 'prove' the validity and accuracy of my position, but I can show how it is based on multiple sources of information about the world, the history of human culture and society, the current state of Scientific knowledge, etc, so has a far higher likelihood of corresponding to reality than yours, being based as it is merely on the purely subjective interpretation of ancient writings, 'what your heart knows'. Yours is the one based on the self-serving mechanism of faith, mine is based on whatever evidence I can gather about external reality. You are entitled to chose which 'current of thought' to follow, and throw its buzzwords and slogans ('The Living Way', 'The Living Faith') around. There are certainly many varieties of 'faith', driving many more 'currents of thought' than with a science and empirical knowledge based outlook.

 

 

 

Bob,

I know what you mean about empty churchy "buzzwords", "phoning it in" and letting the relationship with God degenerate to "autopilot".  And you were more honest about the fact that you can't "prove" your position than I expected.

You are right - in the realm of "faiths" there are many to sort out.  And in the realm of "faith in the gospel of Christ" it is potentially very tricky, and there are forces within and without that would interfere with the navigation;  and it is a trip that needs navigation.  In other words I can't afford to be asleep at the switch.  I have to spiritually "concealed carry" in effect - armor up, watch, guard, be alert.  In one sense it's like a garden - as in being alert for weeds; in another sense it's a war - being on guard for arrows and trouble.  I aim to take every thought captive and interrogate it with respect to the Word of God and in the Light of the Holy Spirit.  As you say these could be just "buzz words" (having only an appearance of something) or I could be using them to describe the reality of my experience.

I mention this to describe to you that I am working at sorting this out in a similar way to you working out your life views, scientific, philosophic or otherwise.  To your view I could be a shallow relligious babbler repeating religious jingle to try to parade a form of religiousness - or, it could be describing the real Life and Light within me and the real battle on the road of faith in Christ.  You have your view of that from the experience you have sorted out and will write it off that way or just think of it as a fantasy pursuit or probably at best just a different pursuit.  

Paul at the Areopagas addressed men who were thinkers looking for some new idea - and were religious in their pursuit of it.  He said they had this altar to an "unknown God" - WHICH God, the God Who Created the world and everything in it  Paul wanted to tell them about.  Some of them accepted what he said - others wanted to kill him.  If you had been there I don't think you would have wanted to kill him (although I have seen some around this website that seem like they would).  Only you could react as you react - but Paul was bringing the gospel and LORD I believe in to Greek thinkers like you.  And Paul was no dumb cookie.  

There is NO solid evidence that any being with truly God-like power exists, let alone a being that corresponds to any of the versions of GOD described in the bible. It also can't be proved tp not exist, but a lot of logical gymnastics are required to fit it to the world we observe and experience, especially to 'justify' the sufferring we see, much of which is inflicted on children, including the youngest. You demonstrated this when you tried to justify the failure of the Bible to clearly condemn slavery, and again when you tried to explain why things like Ebola exist.

Your personal feelings and/or intuitions can prove nothing by themselves, but you repeatedly assert that that is how you 'know' GOD is a 'fact'. With every response, you seem to confirm the impression that you adopted your beliefs as a package deal without any serious consideration or even awareness of the many such apparent logical and/or moral difficulties.

How would such a being come to exist in the first place? The natural development/evolution of the world we see is at least as plausible as that such a complex being capable of creating everything just 'came into existence', or, more of a stretch, has always existed. If a GOD needs no explanation for its existence, no 'creator', then neither should we need any such explanation for the existence of merely mortal life in any form.

 

 

Bob,

Is "faith" a real thing?  YES !  Man couldn't function without it. 

But how is it that the "faith" you have in your "unproveable speculations" is "real" to you but my faith in the gospel isn't?  

And furthermore the experience I have with faith in Christ and the Word of God is shared by countless others (almost like a repeatable science principle Bob); whereas your atheist faith can't be "reigned in" or described by the atheist faithful in any recreateable form common to other atheists' experience - beyond the shared mockery, rejection and blasphemy of God - and also mockery of faith in God and the Bible.  Otherwise your atheism is a void which you have each filled with your own jazzed-up version; non of which versions  answer the fundamental questions of life here or hereafter.  

 

 

 


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> heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy

   Attn.  -- Unrelated to this thread !!   Addressed Clearly to lurkers  not on this site . . .

    People notice, the one-sidedness of these posts. And, Yes,  People do not understand.
 

 

 

The Fonz wrote:
The heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy.

 

    From another Thread . . .

     Excuse me for intruding again   Please,  Excuse me for intruding again

 

   The  Song  lyrics  ''Seventeen'' .. first time, he was "just pretending"

 

 Stepparenting was necessary with proving a more difficult task with late teen Step children having already ensued,  from   my mom's  1st marriage

 

 

 

 

 

 

  His stepdaughter became pregnant at a extremely early age.  My niece, who I am close to in age, remarked she never knew her grandfather, my mother's first husband


 

 

 

 

  My sister's situation was interesting, I like the way it was handled and am immensely proud of the outstandinging way  my mother and father dealt with her situation. All I got was bits and pieces regarding/about all that transpired, or about who she got involved with . . The guy created a situation and their reactions were necessary, it reflected THE reality  of her situation , with my sis finding herself scared . . . 

    Interesting thing about my step-sister's first born baby child, with the status of the child, apparently they were never legally married to each other, in her case. I never asked her, but I feel  she was only wanting affection. It was just so so sad. About her first child's father, was the real '' pretender '' . . In that case, he did everything to maneuver his way to direct access with her. 

 

  Song lyrics says the rest . . .

  Seventeen, he was my everything
  My first kiss, first touch, first love to remember
  And he played the part knowing I'd fall so hard
  I was young enough to know how to surrender
  And he was old enough to be a pretender

   Whispered "I love you's" don't mean much
  When you open up your eyes and
  Find you're not the only one who's felt his touch
  His memories cut so deep they keep reminding me of

   Seventeen, he was my everything
  My first kiss, first touch, first love to remember
  And he played the part knowing I'd fall so hard
  I was young enough to know how to surrender
  And he was old enough to be a pretender

 






If I had to do it over; There's no chance that I would ever
Let his perfect smile pull me in
If I knew that he was just pretending

Seventeen, he was my everything
My first kiss, first touch, first love to remember
He played the part knowing I'd fall so hard
I was young enough to know how to surrender
And he was old enough to be a pretender

  




    

   Where is my promise I'd be nearby ? Where is my promise I'd be nearby ?

  

   Count your blessings . .

  1 Thessalonians 5-18  --  In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of G-d  in whom we belong in . .

  I would be a lying and a pretender myself if I were to say I was very thankful of late, I am in so much pain of late !!

   It's still at a point, where nothing makes much sense right now,  I wish I could say I understand this unique situation!

 

 

 

   >  Artist(s)  It's  "Jane-Dear" not "Dear-Jane" . .   When are you going to wake up ?!??? C'mon . . Really ?!?? 

 YouTube  Song --  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1JKd3OiIc {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1JKd3OiIc}

 

   No time to edit  --  Have to fly  . . .

    Good thing we'LL get a chance to talk soon, at least, I do hope! 


  Off-site  --

    { 93MxIII  wrote } 

  p.s. --   93MxIII posted and said, ''I show up they just resent me and don't think of me as a christian, because they didnt even think to ask what I was doing.  So I go to church all alone and I leave right away, because nobody I care about even talks to me but when they do its all negative '' Look all around you, Yes! A Problem exists!!  It make take some give  and some freedom, I'd think, huh ?!? I dont know what I'm supposed to do (. . yet) !


BobSpence
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 It is probably true that

 It is probably true that "Faith", in the ordinary sense,"complete trust or confidence in someone or something"(Dictionary), is something we will often need need in order to function when we have no compelling logical reason to believe something is true. Not always going to be the case, but often enough.

Another way to look at it is that it would be completely dysfunctional to ignore anything that we could not absolutely prove. This is how Science works, and what I have tried to convey to you several times, but we also need to accept that we should be prepared to provisionally accept something for which there is at least some evidence, and be reluctant to accept that for which there is little or no evidence or at least some evidence against it.

I agree that 'my Atheism is a void',  in that is by definition it is just the absence of belief in any God (or gods).  It is not "jazzed up", it is just one consequence of my approach to Knowledge and Understanding of the world, IOW, not to accept as 'true' that for which we do not have sufficient evidence. Atheism is definitely NOT the foundation of my beliefs, any more than is my lack of belief in Thor or Odin.

The fact that your faith is shared by many others is confirmation that humans have  a common pre-disposition  or susceptabiity to certain classes of belief, especially if they seem to offer some comforting 'explanations' for some worrying mysteries. You also need to acknowledge that we also have more than enough examples of people ultimately 'losing' that faith and professing to find it liberating to scientifically prove that it is NOT an absolute 'truth'. 

Personally, I never, even as a child, took religion any more seriously than belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Even when my mother had  me attend Sunday School for quite a while.

I will admit that I DO like reading/hearing well-explained examples of Biblical nonsense.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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[It was still quite easy...

Quote:
It is probably true that "Faith", in the ordinary sense,"complete trust or confidence in someone or something"(Dictionary), is something we will often need need in order to function when we have no compelling logical reason to believe something is true.
christ is the Truth, and his Word is the most "compelling logical reason" to have faith in him.

 

Quote:
Another way to look at it is that it would be completely dysfunctional to ignore anything that we could not absolutely prove.
The Word of god is the absolute Truth, and the medication for our dysfunction.

 

Quote:
This is how Science works, and what I have tried to convey to you several times, but we also need to accept that we should be prepared to provisionally accept something for which there is at least some evidence, and be reluctant to accept that for which there is little or no evidence or at least some evidence against it.
Atheists provisionally accept the Void of Nothing, out of reluctance to accept god on faith.

 

Quote:
Atheism is definitely NOT the foundation of my beliefs, any more than is my lack of belief in Thor or Odin.
As jesus said, a house built on no foundation cannot stand.  With jesus as your cornerstone, your house will never fall, jazz or no jazz.


Quote:
Personally, I never, even as a child, took religion any more seriously than belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
jesus offers much more than presents under the tree, or pennies under your pillow.  And the risk of rejecting his Word is far greater than lumps of coal or missing teeth. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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DOE RE ME - NOT BEETHOVEN SYMPHONY 9

BobSpence wrote:

 It is probably true that "Faith", in the ordinary sense,"complete trust or confidence in someone or something"(Dictionary), is something we will often need need in order to function when we have no compelling logical reason to believe something is true. Not always going to be the case, but often enough.

Another way to look at it is that it would be completely dysfunctional to ignore anything that we could not absolutely prove. This is how Science works, and what I have tried to convey to you several times, but we also need to accept that we should be prepared to provisionally accept something for which there is at least some evidence, and be reluctant to accept that for which there is little or no evidence or at least some evidence against it.

I agree that 'my Atheism is a void',  in that is by definition it is just the absence of belief in any God (or gods).  It is not "jazzed up", it is just one consequence of my approach to Knowledge and Understanding of the world, IOW, not to accept as 'true' that for which we do not have sufficient evidence. Atheism is definitely NOT the foundation of my beliefs, any more than is my lack of belief in Thor or Odin.

The fact that your faith is shared by many others is confirmation that humans have  a common pre-disposition  or susceptabiity to certain classes of belief, especially if they seem to offer some comforting 'explanations' for some worrying mysteries. You also need to acknowledge that we also have more than enough examples of people ultimately 'losing' that faith and professing to find it liberating to scientifically prove that it is NOT an absolute 'truth'. 

Personally, I never, even as a child, took religion any more seriously than belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Even when my mother had  me attend Sunday School for quite a while.

I will admit that I DO like reading/hearing well-explained examples of Biblical nonsense.

 

 

Bob,

We never talked baby talk with our kids or tried to pull the santa or tooth fairy thing on them - for reason of the serious delusion you brought out concerning your upbringing.

The word "religion":  the impression of that word that I had - and have escaped from - is the effort to be righteous on your own...by who knows what; but, for example:  religious ceremony, guilt-driven do-good,  show and tell of what you did that was righteous that somebody might have missed, prayers on the clock, faith in many words, dress up for Jesus, etc.     

Anyway, this "religion" thing turns out to be an atmospherically encouraged misunderstanding of the real thing; which is: that God pays the price of our debt through the substitutionary death of Jesus (who became sin for us) and we serve God with love from the heart in response not duty or in any way making the mistake we are "earning" or "paying off our eternal mortgage" to God.  

The glory of saving us is all God's.  If we could save ourselves by "religion" that would be to say that Jesus didn't HAVE to die.  And if we try to "help out" on the saving part it only messes up the purity of the whole thing.  We respond to what Jesus did with faith and love not duty which explains I think the judgment scene where one group is asking Jesus - "didn't we do many mighty works in your name" and the group that is on His Right is saying "when did we do this or that?"  Since they did it from the heart they were only aware of abiding in Christ and God - not performing a "religious" duty.  It's a heart navigation thing that needs live online help and Spirit Light.

As far as your term "biblical nonsense" - the cross is folly to those being lost but to those being saved it is eternal life.  Another angle of this is Paul said many things hard to understand (since they are spiritually discerned) which the unstable twist to their own destruction.  Another angle is the godless chatter and opposing ideas of that which is falsely called knowledge.  All of this has to do with people talking about things they don't know anything about or understand.  And instead of just admitting they don't and fearing God and starting with "ABC" they come in to play games in the science lab - and don't know the slightest thing about the knobs they're turning or what they're dealing with.  That approach isn't the way to learn science OR the Word of God.

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 It is probably true that "Faith", in the ordinary sense,"complete trust or confidence in someone or something"(Dictionary), is something we will often need need in order to function when we have no compelling logical reason to believe something is true. Not always going to be the case, but often enough.

Another way to look at it is that it would be completely dysfunctional to ignore anything that we could not absolutely prove. This is how Science works, and what I have tried to convey to you several times, but we also need to accept that we should be prepared to provisionally accept something for which there is at least some evidence, and be reluctant to accept that for which there is little or no evidence or at least some evidence against it.

I agree that 'my Atheism is a void',  in that is by definition it is just the absence of belief in any God (or gods).  It is not "jazzed up", it is just one consequence of my approach to Knowledge and Understanding of the world, IOW, not to accept as 'true' that for which we do not have sufficient evidence. Atheism is definitely NOT the foundation of my beliefs, any more than is my lack of belief in Thor or Odin.

The fact that your faith is shared by many others is confirmation that humans have  a common pre-disposition  or susceptabiity to certain classes of belief, especially if they seem to offer some comforting 'explanations' for some worrying mysteries. You also need to acknowledge that we also have more than enough examples of people ultimately 'losing' that faith and professing to find it liberating to scientifically prove that it is NOT an absolute 'truth'. 

Personally, I never, even as a child, took religion any more seriously than belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Even when my mother had  me attend Sunday School for quite a while.

I will admit that I DO like reading/hearing well-explained examples of Biblical nonsense.

 

Bob,

We never talked baby talk with our kids or tried to pull the santa or tooth fairy thing on them - for reason of the serious delusion you brought out concerning your upbringing.

The word "religion":  the impression of that word that I had - and have escaped from - is the effort to be righteous on your own...by who knows what; but, for example:  religious ceremony, guilt-driven do-good,  show and tell of what you did that was righteous that somebody might have missed, prayers on the clock, faith in many words, dress up for Jesus, etc.     

Anyway, this "religion" thing turns out to be an atmospherically encouraged misunderstanding of the real thing; which is: that God pays the price of our debt through the substitutionary death of Jesus (who became sin for us) and we serve God with love from the heart in response not duty or in any way making the mistake we are "earning" or "paying off our eternal mortgage" to God.  

The glory of saving us is all God's.  If we could save ourselves by "religion" that would be to say that Jesus didn't HAVE to die.  And if we try to "help out" on the saving part it only messes up the purity of the whole thing.  We respond to what Jesus did with faith and love not duty which explains I think the judgment scene where one group is asking Jesus - "didn't we do many mighty works in your name" and the group that is on His Right is saying "when did we do this or that?"  Since they did it from the heart they were only aware of abiding in Christ and God - not performing a "religious" duty.  It's a heart navigation thing that needs live online help and Spirit Light.

As far as your term "biblical nonsense" - the cross is folly to those being lost but to those being saved it is eternal life.  Another angle of this is Paul said many things hard to understand (since they are spiritually discerned) which the unstable twist to their own destruction.  Another angle is the godless chatter and opposing ideas of that which is falsely called knowledge.  All of this has to do with people talking about things they don't know anything about or understand.  And instead of just admitting they don't and fearing God and starting with "ABC" they come in to play games in the science lab - and don't know the slightest thing about the knobs they're turning or what they're dealing with.  That approach isn't the way to learn science OR the Word of God.

 

Hmm, so you are not using the 'standard' (dictionary) definition of the word 'religion' - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods - ?

The whole story of the crucifictiion is, to me, a prime example of the nonsense in the Bible. It seems to hark back to some very primitive ideas, such as the 'magic' of blood sacrifice, which in turn appeals to a magic in blood itself, which includes a revulsion against female menstruation, and a capability to 'wash away sin'.

The idea that God is prepared to 'save' us from himself if we will suck up to him enough, and goes through the absurdity of manifesting a version of himself as a mortal who 'suffers' a temporary 'death' before heading back to 'heaven'... aaarrggh! The gullibility of humanity that can swallow this crap drives me to the ultmate 'face-palm'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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TURN THE TELESCOPE AROUND BOB

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 It is probably true that "Faith", in the ordinary sense,"complete trust or confidence in someone or something"(Dictionary), is something we will often need need in order to function when we have no compelling logical reason to believe something is true. Not always going to be the case, but often enough.

Another way to look at it is that it would be completely dysfunctional to ignore anything that we could not absolutely prove. This is how Science works, and what I have tried to convey to you several times, but we also need to accept that we should be prepared to provisionally accept something for which there is at least some evidence, and be reluctant to accept that for which there is little or no evidence or at least some evidence against it.

I agree that 'my Atheism is a void',  in that is by definition it is just the absence of belief in any God (or gods).  It is not "jazzed up", it is just one consequence of my approach to Knowledge and Understanding of the world, IOW, not to accept as 'true' that for which we do not have sufficient evidence. Atheism is definitely NOT the foundation of my beliefs, any more than is my lack of belief in Thor or Odin.

The fact that your faith is shared by many others is confirmation that humans have  a common pre-disposition  or susceptabiity to certain classes of belief, especially if they seem to offer some comforting 'explanations' for some worrying mysteries. You also need to acknowledge that we also have more than enough examples of people ultimately 'losing' that faith and professing to find it liberating to scientifically prove that it is NOT an absolute 'truth'. 

Personally, I never, even as a child, took religion any more seriously than belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Even when my mother had  me attend Sunday School for quite a while.

I will admit that I DO like reading/hearing well-explained examples of Biblical nonsense.

 

Bob,

We never talked baby talk with our kids or tried to pull the santa or tooth fairy thing on them - for reason of the serious delusion you brought out concerning your upbringing.

The word "religion":  the impression of that word that I had - and have escaped from - is the effort to be righteous on your own...by who knows what; but, for example:  religious ceremony, guilt-driven do-good,  show and tell of what you did that was righteous that somebody might have missed, prayers on the clock, faith in many words, dress up for Jesus, etc.     

Anyway, this "religion" thing turns out to be an atmospherically encouraged misunderstanding of the real thing; which is: that God pays the price of our debt through the substitutionary death of Jesus (who became sin for us) and we serve God with love from the heart in response not duty or in any way making the mistake we are "earning" or "paying off our eternal mortgage" to God.  

The glory of saving us is all God's.  If we could save ourselves by "religion" that would be to say that Jesus didn't HAVE to die.  And if we try to "help out" on the saving part it only messes up the purity of the whole thing.  We respond to what Jesus did with faith and love not duty which explains I think the judgment scene where one group is asking Jesus - "didn't we do many mighty works in your name" and the group that is on His Right is saying "when did we do this or that?"  Since they did it from the heart they were only aware of abiding in Christ and God - not performing a "religious" duty.  It's a heart navigation thing that needs live online help and Spirit Light.

As far as your term "biblical nonsense" - the cross is folly to those being lost but to those being saved it is eternal life.  Another angle of this is Paul said many things hard to understand (since they are spiritually discerned) which the unstable twist to their own destruction.  Another angle is the godless chatter and opposing ideas of that which is falsely called knowledge.  All of this has to do with people talking about things they don't know anything about or understand.  And instead of just admitting they don't and fearing God and starting with "ABC" they come in to play games in the science lab - and don't know the slightest thing about the knobs they're turning or what they're dealing with.  That approach isn't the way to learn science OR the Word of God.

 

Hmm, so you are not using the 'standard' (dictionary) definition of the word 'religion' - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods - ?

The whole story of the crucifictiion is, to me, a prime example of the nonsense in the Bible. It seems to hark back to some very primitive ideas, such as the 'magic' of blood sacrifice, which in turn appeals to a magic in blood itself, which includes a revulsion against female menstruation, and a capability to 'wash away sin'.

The idea that God is prepared to 'save' us from himself if we will suck up to him enough, and goes through the absurdity of manifesting a version of himself as a mortal who 'suffers' a temporary 'death' before heading back to 'heaven'... aaarrggh! The gullibility of humanity that can swallow this crap drives me to the ultmate 'face-palm'.

 

 

Bob,

Yeah I know - when we get down to where the rubber meets the road you don't accept the gospel but I do, and it is a Power likened to the Power that raised Jesus from the dead working within me.  

It is a stumbling block however to you - like a stick placed in front of a trap.

This plan of salvation was made before the world was created - a mystery hidden for ages with clues let out through prophets and prophesies now revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  There is no other Name by which we can be saved than through Jesus.  The way is narrow but it opens wider and wider with more and more light.  The way you have chosen is broad, but gets darker and darker, narrower and narrower.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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A mystery hidden for ages with clues let out through

 

The Fonz wrote:
A mystery hidden for ages with clues let out through . .
    Hey! I earned  6320 points, on this fine site . .

  There is a real problem, actually a couple of problems with these post I have posted.

   Missing and caring about people is all in attempts to "keep them calm"

   Other  0 f f  -  s i t e  --  Hold on! Getting people to tell the truth involves making a conscious choice to take a different approach other than the one that comes most naturally to people. Sometimes it runs the great level of risk. As a result, I should mention briefly, *that wasn't even remotely about disparaging the character of any very nice girl(s) who might have ever read this. I am reminded of Baal's consort, evidently also his sister, who you all natually recall was the goddess Anat. With Anat, she was far more than your red-headed Irish temperament traits personified. Fore she was literally the slayer of death (the god Mot)!  Remembering,  The wicked  are to  a great extent very pious and religious people, often times, with  hidden lasciviousness, all in the family (all in the family) Occasionally even 'nice girls' could barely concealing the disgust in her voice, why is that ? I cannot imagine what a nice girl might think was even being insinuated ?!?  No harm and no foul. It's OKay to speak up! And, Boy!   It's going to be where the mind must begin to boggle, in part.  ( Image part of comment ) Image part of comment

 

 

  

 


BobSpence
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Assumption vs. assumption

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,Yeah I know - when we get down to where the rubber meets the road you don't accept the gospel but I do, and it is a Power likened to the Power that raised Jesus from the dead working within me.  It is a stumbling block however to you - like a stick placed in front of a trap.This plan of salvation was made before the world was created - a mystery hidden for ages with clues let out through prophets and prophesies now revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  There is no other Name by which we can be saved than through Jesus.  The way is narrow but it opens wider and wider with more and more light.  The way you have chosen is broad, but gets darker and darker, narrower and narrower.  

 The way I have chosen has a far wider spread of illumination than what yours appears to have, revealing far more aspects of Reality, and makes it easier to distinguish Truth from the wishful-thinking based fantasy that appears to have you in its grip.  Your assumption about what I experience is just that, merely an assumption. I am quite happy to accept your description of what your outlook reveals to you -  find it more than a little arrogant that you will not accord me an equivalent consideration. I am not asking you to concede that what I perceive is True, just that what I perceive is not what you assume it is.

Are you able or willing to tell me on what you base your conviction that what you experience is based on Truth rather than Hope and wishful thinking as it appears to me to be, at least when I turn my 'telescope' on what your posts and accounts from other Believers convey to me?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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LEANING AGAINST THE TREE OF INDIFFERENCE

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,Yeah I know - when we get down to where the rubber meets the road you don't accept the gospel but I do, and it is a Power likened to the Power that raised Jesus from the dead working within me.  It is a stumbling block however to you - like a stick placed in front of a trap.This plan of salvation was made before the world was created - a mystery hidden for ages with clues let out through prophets and prophesies now revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  There is no other Name by which we can be saved than through Jesus.  The way is narrow but it opens wider and wider with more and more light.  The way you have chosen is broad, but gets darker and darker, narrower and narrower.  

 The way I have chosen has a far wider spread of illumination than what yours appears to have, revealing far more aspects of Reality, and makes it easier to distinguish Truth from the wishful-thinking based fantasy that appears to have you in its grip.  Your assumption about what I experience is just that, merely an assumption. I am quite happy to accept your description of what your outlook reveals to you -  find it more than a little arrogant that you will not accord me an equivalent consideration. I am not asking you to concede that what I perceive is True, just that what I perceive is not what you assume it is.

Are you able or willing to tell me on what you base your conviction that what you experience is based on Truth rather than Hope and wishful thinking as it appears to me to be, at least when I turn my 'telescope' on what your posts and accounts from other Believers convey to me?

 

 

 

Bob,

Yes I'll tell you what my conviction is based on but you have already said and shown several ways it's foolishness to you.  

My conviction that what I experience is True is due to the fact that first:  I believe the Gospel - that Jesus IS the Son of God, that God became man, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, became the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world (those who believe in Him), Rose from the dead to an Indestructible Life and Eternal Victory (which I now share in).  This is the Corner Stone of TRUTH to me.  And I believe the Word of God is God - Breathed (ALL OF IT).  

Since Jesus is Alive (the LIVING WAY), He adds an element missing in your knowledge -LIFE.  Jesus has been revealed as our Wisdom - He Breathes Life into the Knowledge of God.  If you loved God and longed for the Knowledge of God this could be open to you.  You don't, it isn't, you reject the most fundamental element of Knowledge and Wisdom - the fear of God.  So there you are Bob.  It's not that these things are difficult - it's that God hasn't opened them to you (hasn't Breathed Life into it for you because you are indifferent to it - you don't need it, you don't need God, you have yourself to believe in).  That door opens from the "Bob" side.  But I think old "Bob" is leaning against the door like that tree pictured, hand's folded, radiating uninterested body language head to toe.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Parents, are often afraid to show their own cracks in the façade

  O t h e r   O f f  s i t e --

 >

   Even with well-meaning parents, they're often afraid to show their own cracks in the façade .  .

 

 Proverbs 13:12 --

 

    '' Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but [when] the desire comes, it is 'a tree of life' ( ~ double meaning)''

 

 



 


 

    http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1KKBTFVXXXXa4XpXXq6xXFXXXg/201548521/HTB1KKBTFVXXXXa4XpXXq6xXFXXXg.jpg

 





 

  And  these 'Images' (View Upload)  is just one of another image.  Remember the  'Theme'  so  try, do try  not  to  worry about it . . .

 

  (Smile)

 


 

  http://tinypic.com/r/6h70ib/8


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OK, so you believe it

OK, so you believe it because you believe the Gospel, so what convinced you the Gospel is true?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
OK, so you believe it because you believe the Gospel, so what convinced you the Gospel is true?
god is the Word, and the Word is Truth.  The Truth of the Gospel convinces me that it's true.  To deny the Gospel is to deny Truth.

What convinced you that your belief in Nothing is true?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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GIFT OF GOD

BobSpence wrote:

OK, so you believe it because you believe the Gospel, so what convinced you the Gospel is true?

 

 

Bob,

I don't know really.  I had heard the gospel as a kid but it didn't register.  Some people had something I wanted but I didn't know what it was.  I started reading the Bible by myself at Genesis 1.  At a certain point in the Old Testament the gospel message I had heard "clicked".  Christ is all through the Old Testament (as He said).  I understood, it all made sense (what I knew at that point).  I was baptized that same day.  According to the Scriptures - saving faith is a Gift from God, like a miraculous spiritual calling from God so to speak.  He gives it (faith) to whoever He chooses; however, it is also true that "whosoever will may come" to the feast.  So whoever is saved is totally the result of God's Work - but whoever is lost is totally responsible themselves.  All are called.    

I'd like to ask you something Bob.  I have mentioned several times that a thing that gives me great inner strength is knowing that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are with me.  Who is with you?  Are you alone facing the world?  I know you have friends, etc. but there are times when you're not with them.  Who is with you then?   

 

 

 

 


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The First Fruits . . .

 

  re ::  The First Fruits . . .

 

  View Image ::

 

  

   http://i60.tinypic.com/2exoa44.jpg {http://tinypic.com/m/id56qt/3}

  Quote  --

   ''And I am he that liveth; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades ''

 And I am he that liveth; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades

 

   Attn. '' OFF  Site'' / OFF - S i t e ( That  for those you don't know means lurkers who I am not with, at least for the moment) ::
 

   Http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34696  Nu # 12  ; http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34696#comment-414037 {http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34696#comment-414037}

 

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkIJfLfzZ0w {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkIJfLfzZ0w}

 




   UNRELATED TO POST OR THIS CELL IN THIS POST,  the following :

     TRUE CHARACTERISTICS ARE NOT CHARACTERISTICS
 



 

  p.p.s. --  Oh, On-Site ONLY  --  In the compilation of the story of the events . . . (a real must to View Uploaded Image)