It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

OK, so you believe it because you believe the Gospel, so what convinced you the Gospel is true?

 

 

Bob,

I don't know really.  I had heard the gospel as a kid but it didn't register.  Some people had something I wanted but I didn't know what it was.  I started reading the Bible by myself at Genesis 1.  At a certain point in the Old Testament the gospel message I had heard "clicked".  Christ is all through the Old Testament (as He said).  I understood, it all made sense (what I knew at that point).  I was baptized that same day.  According to the Scriptures - saving faith is a Gift from God, like a miraculous spiritual calling from God so to speak.  He gives it (faith) to whoever He chooses; however, it is also true that "whosoever will may come" to the feast.  So whoever is saved is totally the result of God's Work - but whoever is lost is totally responsible themselves.  All are called.    

I'd like to ask you something Bob.  I have mentioned several times that a thing that gives me great inner strength is knowing that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are with me.  Who is with you?  Are you alone facing the world?  I know you have friends, etc. but there are times when you're not with them.  Who is with you then?   

I 'only' have friends and family as real people who are 'with me' in any sense. This includes people who I currently have only 'virtual' contact with, particularly one guy in North Carolina, USA, who I regularly chat with via Skype. We definitely give each other emotional support, but the idea of relying on someone who cannot even be shown to exist outside our own minds would seem to both of us as absurd. We have no 'imaginary friends'.

You are just demonstrating to me, once again, the susceptibility to wishful thinking and comforting delusions of our fallible, imperfect, human minds.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


danatemporary
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* There *

 R e : :  * There *

 

  

 

   

    There can be only one (View *LDS photo, Above)

I wrote :: Nothing tell me it's against the law seek something that is of pretty much of no advantage to self, or have to worry about every little post either. 

   Please allow me to help by putting some punctuation in a sentence from this page, if I may be allowed to, as is follows (typeos) ::

 
  Grammatical errors  -

  Large typing errors apparently  -- Maybe the introduction of punctuation, couldn't hurt  : '' Nothing ! Tell me it's against the law, [TO] seek something that is of, pretty much no advantage to self; or [do I] have to worry about every little post either ??!?? ''
 

 

 Off site   --  We all are left speculating with no communication

     (No Subject)

   Re ::  No Subject

 

  View Image --

   

    http://tinypic.com/r/25k7yth/8
 

  The future's family .. well,  she always with all these unexpected surprises  I take it  . .



  p.p.s.  --  Other  Off - site --

      Feel like I only miss out on getting a chance to say Hi. Havent made it over, which I am so sorry for that  . .

 

   Edit --  Edit :: Large typing errors apparently in a few posts on this page !! Striking Grammatical errors DUE TO  BAD  Typing!! And added the "Highlander hoodie (Image)''

 

  LDS  has a different gospel and different view of the 'Divinity' of Christ, so it has been consider, rightly so, a non-christian 'cult'

 


 


 

  http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/297/a/7/ohana_means_family_by_bibestfriendbiatch-d5itk2h.png

 

      fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/297/a/7/ohana_means_family_by_bibestfriendbiatch-d5itk2h.png

 

  Important  Link --   http:// www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34696 Nu # 12 ; http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34696#comment-414037

 

 

 


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy....

Quote:
I 'only' have friends and family as real people who are 'with me' in any sense. This includes people who I currently have only 'virtual' contact with, particularly one guy in North Carolina, USA, who I regularly chat with via Skype. We definitely give each other emotional support, but the idea of relying on someone who cannot even be shown to exist outside our own minds would seem to both of us as absurd.
The god who created me and died to save me is more real than any stream of digits across the internet.  There is nothing 'virtual' about my experience of the True Christ in Heaven, like the 'virtual' person you talk to in North Carolina you talk to on your computer screen.  

Quote:
You are just demonstrating to me, once again, the susceptibility to wishful thinking and comforting delusions of our fallible, imperfect, human minds.
 You know the computer you use to chat with required a designer, and didn't come from Nothing.  Yet the 'fallible, imperfect, human mind' is a dozen times more complex than any computer.  How can you think that came from Nothing.  There is nothing 'imaginary' about the Eternal Designer.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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TALKING SCHOOLS DOORS JANES AND MENUS

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

OK, so you believe it because you believe the Gospel, so what convinced you the Gospel is true?

 

 

Bob,

I don't know really.  I had heard the gospel as a kid but it didn't register.  Some people had something I wanted but I didn't know what it was.  I started reading the Bible by myself at Genesis 1.  At a certain point in the Old Testament the gospel message I had heard "clicked".  Christ is all through the Old Testament (as He said).  I understood, it all made sense (what I knew at that point).  I was baptized that same day.  According to the Scriptures - saving faith is a Gift from God, like a miraculous spiritual calling from God so to speak.  He gives it (faith) to whoever He chooses; however, it is also true that "whosoever will may come" to the feast.  So whoever is saved is totally the result of God's Work - but whoever is lost is totally responsible themselves.  All are called.    

I'd like to ask you something Bob.  I have mentioned several times that a thing that gives me great inner strength is knowing that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are with me.  Who is with you?  Are you alone facing the world?  I know you have friends, etc. but there are times when you're not with them.  Who is with you then?   

I 'only' have friends and family as real people who are 'with me' in any sense. This includes people who I currently have only 'virtual' contact with, particularly one guy in North Carolina, USA, who I regularly chat with via Skype. We definitely give each other emotional support, but the idea of relying on someone who cannot even be shown to exist outside our own minds would seem to both of us as absurd. We have no 'imaginary friends'.

You are just demonstrating to me, once again, the susceptibility to wishful thinking and comforting delusions of our fallible, imperfect, human minds.

 

 

Bob,

Again - whether or not JESUS, GOD and the Gift of The Holy Spirit are REAL and dwell in me and I in THEM - all turns on whether or not the Gospel is true.  I have no doubt that it's all true - and furthermore experience it all just like you and I experience gravity with no argument - (except you think your experts understand it and maybe invented it - I don't).

Your knowledge lacks the LIFE that WISDOM (CHRIST) would Breathe into it, and is dead without THIS LIFE, unsatisfying as a phone book.  Maybe the book of Proverbs would encourage you to sign up for a different school.  You can read the brochures for the 2 schools (and the two JANES) in the first 9 chapters - also the school cafeteria menus.  You might have to duck so you don't bump your head.  Also you might have to do violence to yourself in order to check this all out, but the will is the mistress of the heart and soul.     

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote: Bob,Again -

Fonzie wrote:
 Bob,

Again - whether or not JESUS, GOD and the Gift of The Holy Spirit are REAL and dwell in me and I in THEM - all turns on whether or not the Gospel is true. I have no doubt that it's all true - and furthermore experience it all just like you and I experience gravity with no argument - (except you think your experts understand it and maybe invented it - I don't).

Your knowledge lacks the LIFE that WISDOM (CHRIST) would Breathe into it, and is dead without THIS LIFE, unsatisfying as a phone book. Maybe the book of Proverbs would encourage you to sign up for a different school. You can read the brochures for the 2 schools (and the two JANES) in the first 9 chapters - also the school cafeteria menus. You might have to duck so you don't bump your head. Also you might have to do violence to yourself in order to check this all out, but the will is the mistress of the heart and soul.

Interesting. My knowledge is continually supported and re-inforced by my observation of the world and accounts of events in this world as reported and shown on the daily news sources ( the ones that are worth taking seriously, ie the BBC and the Australian version here, but not so much CNN and certainly not Fox News. The World only makes sense to me within the framework of Science and purged of Superstitious concepts such as Gods. It pretty much all 'hangs together', unlike what I read in the Bible, or much of what you have written here. Sorry I don't understand your reference to 'the two JANES' (?typo?)

Whenever some new piece of information fits neatly into an existing gap or clarifies some previously 'fuzzy' part of my knowledge that I get my 'buzz', what helps puts the 'LIFE' into my knowledge.

And I have reason to think 'my' experts do understand it, better than I do, (or I wouldn't be listening to them), but of course no-one with the slightest understanding of the subject would 'think anyone 'thought they invented it'. The important thing about my approach to the pursuit of knowledge is to continually be prepared to check whether my current favorite sources and 'experts' are worthy of that respect. If someone else is able to show significant errors in what some 'expert' is saying, then I will drop them off my list. This is a reflection of a fundamental aspect of Scientific research in general - much effort is devoted to looking for possible errors in the work of other researchers. Criticism is welcomed, as long as it is properly based, ie not 'frivolous'. IOW, 

The Bible is generally less interesting to me than a 'phone book' - certainly less accurate.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Interesting. My knowledge is continually supported and re-inforced by my observation of the world and accounts of events in this world as reported and shown on the daily news sources ( the ones that are worth taking seriously, ie the BBC and the Australian version here, but not so much CNN and certainly not Fox News. The World only makes sense to me within the framework of Science and purged of Superstitious concepts such as Gods.
My knowledge is continually supported by my observation of christ in my life, and the fulfillment of the gospel.  The bible is the best news source, because it reports the Good News of the lord.  The world only makes sense to me within the framework of the One who created it, and came down Himself to save us (* - from himself).  Science still hasn't invented salvation(*except from quite a number of his tiny pet viruses - still working on his latest - ebola ), so it doesn't fit in my framework.

Quote:
The Bible is generally less interesting to me than a 'phone book' - certainly less accurate.
You use the phone book when you want to call someone.  You use the bible when you want to heed god's call. If you choose not to heed the call, it's no wonder you don't find it interesting.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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PHONEBOOK UNIVERSITY -- OLD PU

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 Bob,

Again - whether or not JESUS, GOD and the Gift of The Holy Spirit are REAL and dwell in me and I in THEM - all turns on whether or not the Gospel is true. I have no doubt that it's all true - and furthermore experience it all just like you and I experience gravity with no argument - (except you think your experts understand it and maybe invented it - I don't).

Your knowledge lacks the LIFE that WISDOM (CHRIST) would Breathe into it, and is dead without THIS LIFE, unsatisfying as a phone book. Maybe the book of Proverbs would encourage you to sign up for a different school. You can read the brochures for the 2 schools (and the two JANES) in the first 9 chapters - also the school cafeteria menus. You might have to duck so you don't bump your head. Also you might have to do violence to yourself in order to check this all out, but the will is the mistress of the heart and soul.

Interesting. My knowledge is continually supported and re-inforced by my observation of the world and accounts of events in this world as reported and shown on the daily news sources ( the ones that are worth taking seriously, ie the BBC and the Australian version here, but not so much CNN and certainly not Fox News. The World only makes sense to me within the framework of Science and purged of Superstitious concepts such as Gods. It pretty much all 'hangs together', unlike what I read in the Bible, or much of what you have written here. Sorry I don't understand your reference to 'the two JANES' (?typo?)

Whenever some new piece of information fits neatly into an existing gap or clarifies some previously 'fuzzy' part of my knowledge that I get my 'buzz', what helps puts the 'LIFE' into my knowledge.

And I have reason to think 'my' experts do understand it, better than I do, (or I wouldn't be listening to them), but of course no-one with the slightest understanding of the subject would 'think anyone 'thought they invented it'. The important thing about my approach to the pursuit of knowledge is to continually be prepared to check whether my current favorite sources and 'experts' are worthy of that respect. If someone else is able to show significant errors in what some 'expert' is saying, then I will drop them off my list. This is a reflection of a fundamental aspect of Scientific research in general - much effort is devoted to looking for possible errors in the work of other researchers. Criticism is welcomed, as long as it is properly based, ie not 'frivolous'. IOW, 

The Bible is generally less interesting to me than a 'phone book' - certainly less accurate.

 

 

Bob, 

How do you KNOW your experts are really experts?  Well, they just are - you know you can't prove it.  The daily news, the daily classes, the professors with their fuzzy information for your gaps wih which they capture your respect, stay on your list and keep your phone book exciting.  They tickle old Bob's framework with careful criticism hanging together  properly based; devoting effort to searching for possible errors, significant errors, pursuint to the goal of being current, and being a favorite source you would "listen" to, giving reason for you to think - not that they invented - but fitting your approach and being worthy.

I get it.  1-800-DUL-VYLL   

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 Bob,

Again - whether or not JESUS, GOD and the Gift of The Holy Spirit are REAL and dwell in me and I in THEM - all turns on whether or not the Gospel is true. I have no doubt that it's all true - and furthermore experience it all just like you and I experience gravity with no argument - (except you think your experts understand it and maybe invented it - I don't).

Your knowledge lacks the LIFE that WISDOM (CHRIST) would Breathe into it, and is dead without THIS LIFE, unsatisfying as a phone book. Maybe the book of Proverbs would encourage you to sign up for a different school. You can read the brochures for the 2 schools (and the two JANES) in the first 9 chapters - also the school cafeteria menus. You might have to duck so you don't bump your head. Also you might have to do violence to yourself in order to check this all out, but the will is the mistress of the heart and soul.

Interesting. My knowledge is continually supported and re-inforced by my observation of the world and accounts of events in this world as reported and shown on the daily news sources ( the ones that are worth taking seriously, ie the BBC and the Australian version here, but not so much CNN and certainly not Fox News. The World only makes sense to me within the framework of Science and purged of Superstitious concepts such as Gods. It pretty much all 'hangs together', unlike what I read in the Bible, or much of what you have written here. Sorry I don't understand your reference to 'the two JANES' (?typo?)

Whenever some new piece of information fits neatly into an existing gap or clarifies some previously 'fuzzy' part of my knowledge that I get my 'buzz', what helps puts the 'LIFE' into my knowledge.

And I have reason to think 'my' experts do understand it, better than I do, (or I wouldn't be listening to them), but of course no-one with the slightest understanding of the subject would 'think anyone 'thought they invented it'. The important thing about my approach to the pursuit of knowledge is to continually be prepared to check whether my current favorite sources and 'experts' are worthy of that respect. If someone else is able to show significant errors in what some 'expert' is saying, then I will drop them off my list. This is a reflection of a fundamental aspect of Scientific research in general - much effort is devoted to looking for possible errors in the work of other researchers. Criticism is welcomed, as long as it is properly based, ie not 'frivolous'. IOW, 

The Bible is generally less interesting to me than a 'phone book' - certainly less accurate.

 

 

Bob, 

How do you KNOW your experts are really experts?  Well, they just are - you know you can't prove it.  The daily news, the daily classes, the professors with their fuzzy information for your gaps wih which they capture your respect, stay on your list and keep your phone book exciting.  They tickle old Bob's framework with careful criticism hanging together  properly based; devoting effort to searching for possible errors, significant errors, pursuint to the goal of being current, and being a favorite source you would "listen" to, giving reason for you to think - not that they invented - but fitting your approach and being worthy.

I get it.  1-800-DUL-VYLL   

I can't prove that the people I decide to treat as 'experts' really are, I just keep noting how well what they say fits into what I hear or read from other sources, as well as how what they have said in the past has worked out, as well as noting what other reasonbly knowledgeable people have said about them. And prepare to drop them if their information gets too 'fuzzy'.

What 'daily classes' are you referring to? What 'professors'? You clearly have NO IDEA of what I am talking about.  YOU are the one with the equivalent of a dull, obsolete 'phone-book' to get your information from (the Holey (meaning full of holes) Bible)... and no idea how to judge how reliable any given source is likely to be.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
I can't prove that the people I decide to treat as 'experts' really are, I just keep noting how well what they say fits into what I hear or read from other sources, as well as how what they have said in the past has worked out, as well as noting what other reasonbly knowledgeable people have said about them. And prepare to drop them if their information gets too 'fuzzy'.
You have put your faith in your so-called experts, and not the Ultimate Expert.  I note how well the Word of god fits into my life, and is repeatedly fulfilled.  jesus is the living water that fits perfectly any earthen vessel willing to receive Him.  The Fruit of Eternal Life never turns 'fuzzy'.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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CHOOSE YOUR CHOICE AND PHONE IT IN

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 Bob,

Again - whether or not JESUS, GOD and the Gift of The Holy Spirit are REAL and dwell in me and I in THEM - all turns on whether or not the Gospel is true. I have no doubt that it's all true - and furthermore experience it all just like you and I experience gravity with no argument - (except you think your experts understand it and maybe invented it - I don't).

Your knowledge lacks the LIFE that WISDOM (CHRIST) would Breathe into it, and is dead without THIS LIFE, unsatisfying as a phone book. Maybe the book of Proverbs would encourage you to sign up for a different school. You can read the brochures for the 2 schools (and the two JANES) in the first 9 chapters - also the school cafeteria menus. You might have to duck so you don't bump your head. Also you might have to do violence to yourself in order to check this all out, but the will is the mistress of the heart and soul.

Interesting. My knowledge is continually supported and re-inforced by my observation of the world and accounts of events in this world as reported and shown on the daily news sources ( the ones that are worth taking seriously, ie the BBC and the Australian version here, but not so much CNN and certainly not Fox News. The World only makes sense to me within the framework of Science and purged of Superstitious concepts such as Gods. It pretty much all 'hangs together', unlike what I read in the Bible, or much of what you have written here. Sorry I don't understand your reference to 'the two JANES' (?typo?)

Whenever some new piece of information fits neatly into an existing gap or clarifies some previously 'fuzzy' part of my knowledge that I get my 'buzz', what helps puts the 'LIFE' into my knowledge.

And I have reason to think 'my' experts do understand it, better than I do, (or I wouldn't be listening to them), but of course no-one with the slightest understanding of the subject would 'think anyone 'thought they invented it'. The important thing about my approach to the pursuit of knowledge is to continually be prepared to check whether my current favorite sources and 'experts' are worthy of that respect. If someone else is able to show significant errors in what some 'expert' is saying, then I will drop them off my list. This is a reflection of a fundamental aspect of Scientific research in general - much effort is devoted to looking for possible errors in the work of other researchers. Criticism is welcomed, as long as it is properly based, ie not 'frivolous'. IOW, 

The Bible is generally less interesting to me than a 'phone book' - certainly less accurate.

 

 

Bob, 

How do you KNOW your experts are really experts?  Well, they just are - you know you can't prove it.  The daily news, the daily classes, the professors with their fuzzy information for your gaps wih which they capture your respect, stay on your list and keep your phone book exciting.  They tickle old Bob's framework with careful criticism hanging together  properly based; devoting effort to searching for possible errors, significant errors, pursuint to the goal of being current, and being a favorite source you would "listen" to, giving reason for you to think - not that they invented - but fitting your approach and being worthy.

I get it.  1-800-DUL-VYLL   

I can't prove that the people I decide to treat as 'experts' really are, I just keep noting how well what they say fits into what I hear or read from other sources, as well as how what they have said in the past has worked out, as well as noting what other reasonbly knowledgeable people have said about them. And prepare to drop them if their information gets too 'fuzzy'.

What 'daily classes' are you referring to? What 'professors'? You clearly have NO IDEA of what I am talking about.  YOU are the one with the equivalent of a dull, obsolete 'phone-book' to get your information from (the Holey (meaning full of holes) Bible)... and no idea how to judge how reliable any given source is likely to be.

 

 

 

 

Bob,

It's the expert's hallelujah chorus all praising and honoring and awarding each other.  And how do you know how things have worked out?  Because of the way they LOOK like they have worked out.  There's no chance it could be a staged production - things not as they seem.  I'm in a lot of homes and I can tell you things are not always as they seem just driving by.  

Yeah you have no idea of what I'm talking about and I'm sure I thankfully have no idea what you're talking about as far as experiencing it.   The classes go on with the experts pontificating their expertise - in classes where experts are made from expert - made experts.  I've sat through some of those thrilling events; psychology classes, physics class, chemistry, calculus, art and music appreciation, creative writing.  And I've worked for many of these professors, heads of departments - philosophy and political science, teacher of the year.  Expertise is a many splendored thing Bob.  You make your drive - by calculations and I'll make mine Bible based with no qualms or looking back.   

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote: Bob, How do

Fonzie wrote:

 Bob,

It's the expert's hallelujah chorus all praising and honoring and awarding each other.  And how do you know how things have worked out?  Because of the way they LOOK like they have worked out.  There's no chance it could be a staged production - things not as they seem.  I'm in a lot of homes and I can tell you things are not always as they seem just driving by.  

Yeah you have no idea of what I'm talking about and I'm sure I thankfully have no idea what you're talking about as far as experiencing it.   The classes go on with the experts pontificating their expertise - in classes where experts are made from expert - made experts.  I've sat through some of those thrilling events; psychology classes, physics class, chemistry, calculus, art and music appreciation, creative writing.  And I've worked for many of these professors, heads of departments - philosophy and political science, teacher of the year.  Expertise is a many splendored thing Bob.  You make your drive - by calculations and I'll make mine Bible based with no qualms or looking back.    

Once again, what you describe bears no relation to what I was talking about - sounds more like what I would imagine going on at a church or a meeting of theologians, exchanging their finely-polished ignorance. A 'staged production' is about the only way one could see stuff in the bible 'working out' as you expected.

Added:

Experts are NOT 'made' by other experts. They acquire their understanding by a combination of training/learning that provides a grounding in the basics of their field of knowledge, and then build on that by on-going practical experience in applying that knowledge in real-world situations. It is really a concentrated application of how everyone who does not simply drift along in lazy ignorance acquires whatever skills and knowledge they accumulate thru life and living.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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A Christmas Carol, Stave 3: The Second of the Three Spirits

   * 'Each' post  is  different  . . .

 Addressed to the attention of others and only using Bob's comments as a  backdrop

 Addressed to the attention of others and only using Bob's comments as a  backdrop

"'Forgive me if I am not justified in what I ask,' said
Scrooge, looking intently at the Spirit's robe,' but I see
something strange, and not belonging to yourself, protruding
from your skirts. Is it a foot or a claw.'
 
'It might be a claw, for the flesh there is upon it,' was
the Spirit's sorrowful reply. 'Look here.'
 
From the foldings of its robe, it brought two children;
wretched, abject, frightful. They knelt, the words choked themselves,
to behold them down at its' feet, and clung upon the outside of its garment.
 
'Oh, Man. look here. Look, look, down here.' exclaimed the Ghost.
 
They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling,
but prostrate, too, in their insufficiencies & humility. Where
graceful youth should have filled their features out, and
touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled
providentially wrought had pinched, and twisted them, and
pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat
enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No
change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any
grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has
monsters half so horrible and dread.
 
Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him
in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but
the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie
of such enormous magnitude.
 
'Spirit. are they yours.' Scrooge could say no more.
 
'They are Man's,' said the Spirit, looking down upon
them. 'And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers.
This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both,
and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy,
for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the
writing be erased. Deny it.' cried the Spirit, stretching out
its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye.
Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse.
And abide the end.'
 
'Have they no refuge or resource.' cried Scrooge.
 

   - A Christmas Carol, Stave 3: The Second of the Three Spirits

 



  Maya Angelou (paraphrased) --   ''. . people will oftentimes forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel''

 

'0ther'  0ff - site  --

 

     The bright blessed day .. the dark sacred night  The bright blessed day .. the dark sacred night
 

  >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aba0lVdE2c {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aba0lVdE2c}

   Hope always springs eternal  . . .

 

 


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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Once again, what you describe bears no relation to what I was talking about - sounds more like what I would imagine going on at a church or a meeting of theologians, exchanging their finely-polished ignorance.
Scientists are slowly climbing the mountain of Knowledge, and when (and if) they reach the top, they'll find the theologians who have been there for years.

 

Quote:
A 'staged production' is about the only way one could see stuff in the bible 'working out' as you expected.
Life is a production staged by god.  You can use your science to exit stage left, but I will stay for the final curtain call.

 

Quote:
Added:

Experts are NOT 'made' by other experts. They acquire their understanding by a combination of training/learning that provides a grounding in the basics of their field of knowledge, and then build on that by on-going practical experience in applying that knowledge in real-world situations. It is really a concentrated application of how everyone who does not simply drift along in lazy ignorance acquires whatever skills and knowledge they accumulate thru life and living.

The bible provides a grounding in the basics of True Knowledge, and I build on that by my everyday experience of christ.  

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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And Love will find me . . even . . 'true' . .


>>
Re:: And Love will find me . . even . . 'true' . .

>No Subject
(No Subject)

Site :: (?) Peace and Good-will and the like , I wonder who if any were finally deserted ? -- --
>>
Url - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34587?page=4 Nu#210 and/or http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34587?page=4#comment-412486

:


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CONCENTRATED REAL WORLD GROUND ACQUIRED PRODUCTION

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 Bob,

It's the expert's hallelujah chorus all praising and honoring and awarding each other.  And how do you know how things have worked out?  Because of the way they LOOK like they have worked out.  There's no chance it could be a staged production - things not as they seem.  I'm in a lot of homes and I can tell you things are not always as they seem just driving by.  

Yeah you have no idea of what I'm talking about and I'm sure I thankfully have no idea what you're talking about as far as experiencing it.   The classes go on with the experts pontificating their expertise - in classes where experts are made from expert - made experts.  I've sat through some of those thrilling events; psychology classes, physics class, chemistry, calculus, art and music appreciation, creative writing.  And I've worked for many of these professors, heads of departments - philosophy and political science, teacher of the year.  Expertise is a many splendored thing Bob.  You make your drive - by calculations and I'll make mine Bible based with no qualms or looking back.    

Once again, what you describe bears no relation to what I was talking about - sounds more like what I would imagine going on at a church or a meeting of theologians, exchanging their finely-polished ignorance. A 'staged production' is about the only way one could see stuff in the bible 'working out' as you expected.

Added:

Experts are NOT 'made' by other experts. They acquire their understanding by a combination of training/learning that provides a grounding in the basics of their field of knowledge, and then build on that by on-going practical experience in applying that knowledge in real-world situations. It is really a concentrated application of how everyone who does not simply drift along in lazy ignorance acquires whatever skills and knowledge they accumulate thru life and living.

 

 

 

Bob,

How do people eat vegemite and think it's fine dining?  Have they acquired understanding combined with field trainng built on practical real-world experience applying  the skills and knowledge they accululate in learn-ed on-going situations?  It's a concentrated application I'll agree.  

 

 

 


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Look at what's missing (argument)

Re :: Look at what's missing (argument) . .

In Saint Paul's 2nd letter to the church at Corinth In Saint Paul's 2nd letter to the church at Corinth

2 Corinthians IV -- "but we having renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in His sight"

Site ::

When you rob people of rights and freedoms - don't touch; don't taste; don't handle -- It also appears that the urge for freedom had been there, but is hidden, underground, and could take on a truly more 'subversive' form.

With a historical example being of the 2nd Century Gnostics - -

Gnostic texts (2nd Century) --
:
The Apocalypse of Adam

". . fire and (a blinding) mist will come over those aeons, and the eyes of the powers of the illuminators will be darkened, and the aeons will not see them in those days. And great clouds of light will descend, and other clouds of light will come down upon them"

-- -- --
Don't give up until you drink from the silver cup
Ride that highway in the sky

Don't give up until you drink from the silver cup
Ride that highway in the sky

-- -- --
Recording Artist :: Jars of Clay ( / America)

=============================================================================================================================================================================

The First Apocalypse of James

"Achamoth had no father nor male consort, but she is female from a female. She produced you without a male, since she was alone (and) in ignorance as to what lives through her mother because she thought that she alone existed. But I shall cry out to her mother. And then they will fall into confusion (and) will blame their root and the race of their mother. But you will go up to what is yours [...] you will [...] the Pre-existent One." "through whom you will be redeemed, and (who are) all the sons of Him-who-is - these things they have known and HAVING HIDDEN WITHIN THEM"

-- -- --
-- -- --
Off - site ::

I don't feel I need to make a comment on everything, nor comment on anything anyone has ever made some statement on. Funny thing that!!

Matt. X -- Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that city. Mark VI -- Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

In the accounts written in the earthly ministry of Jesus; recall where the water was turned into wine: ''This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed ..''


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:Bob,How do

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

How do people eat vegemite and think it's fine dining?  Have they acquired understanding combined with field trainng built on practical real-world experience applying  the skills and knowledge they accululate in learn-ed on-going situations?  It's a concentrated application I'll agree.  

How and why people aquire their taste preferences has NOTHING to do with how people aquire actual knowledge about the world and how to deal with reality. As for 'Fine Dining', that is pretty much a matter of personal opinion, like God belief. What 'works' for one person won't necessarily work for another.

Added: Why would you assume anyone considers vegemite 'fine dining'? I don't know that anyone here regards it that way. It is just that some people think it is tasty when applied to some snacks.

The Bible is a mass of conflicting accounts of what a few people imagined happened a few thousand years ago, based on stories originally passed on by word of mouth, so in no way provides a sound basis for any kind of 'knowlege' worth taking seriously.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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The Troll disdained the Ozzies and their diet of yeast extract.1  For he believed in the tribal god yahweh, whose followers ate yeast-free matzo as they spent 40 years traveling a few hundred miles of desert.2  And they failed to include marsupials in their flood myth,3 because they were too ignorant at the time to know of other  continents,4 let alone they were inhabited with more lifeforms than could fit on their imaginary ark5.

And yet, it was still quite easy...6

  

Quote:
How and why people aquire their taste preferences has NOTHING to do with how people aquire actual knowledge about the world and how to deal with reality.
Those with a sweet tooth for sin grab for the Forbidden Fruit to deal with reality, and choose to be lactose intolerant to the better reality jesus offers with the Milk of Salvation.

 

Quote:
As for 'Fine Dining', that is pretty much a matter of personal opinion, like God belief. What 'works' for one person won't necessarily work for another.
jesus offered his own body and blood at the Last Supper.  That is the Finest Dining possible, and works for those who choose it.



 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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"TURN TURN TURN" BIRDS

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

How do people eat vegemite and think it's fine dining?  Have they acquired understanding combined with field trainng built on practical real-world experience applying  the skills and knowledge they accululate in learn-ed on-going situations?  It's a concentrated application I'll agree.  

How and why people aquire their taste preferences has NOTHING to do with how people aquire actual knowledge about the world and how to deal with reality. As for 'Fine Dining', that is pretty much a matter of personal opinion, like God belief. What 'works' for one person won't necessarily work for another.

Added: Why would you assume anyone considers vegemite 'fine dining'? I don't know that anyone here regards it that way. It is just that some people think it is tasty when applied to some snacks.

The Bible is a mass of conflicting accounts of what a few people imagined happened a few thousand years ago, based on stories originally passed on by word of mouth, so in no way provides a sound basis for any kind of 'knowlege' worth taking seriously.

 

 

WELL,  

       I wonder if old Bob is going to get the wheel re-invented 

       in time to get in the chariot

       and ride to The Judgment parking lot

       where he presents his form of righteousness (also proprietary)

       and see how he does..  .   .    .     .      .       .

 

       time is a wastin'

       will "experts" be surprised?  

       I have it from ROCK solid / ROCK accepting sources

       said "experts" will be had to the ultimate definition of "had"

       and in fact try to get under rocks * *  *   *    *     *      *       *

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:WELL,     

Fonzie wrote:

WELL,  

       I wonder if old Bob is going to get the wheel re-invented 

       in time to get in the chariot

       and ride to The Judgment parking lot

       where he presents his form of righteousness (also proprietary)

       and see how he does..  .   .    .     .      .       .

 

       time is a wastin'

       will "experts" be surprised?  

       I have it from ROCK solid / ROCK accepting sources

       said "experts" will be had to the ultimate definition of "had"

       and in fact try to get under rocks * *  *   *    *     *      *       *

 

Still stuck, I see, in your fantasy world, with no connection to reality in any form. That's where you end up when you base your "Truth" on something as purely a product of ancient human fantasy and wishful-thinking as ancient (or even modern mash-up versions of) some crazy religious story. Possibly not quite as crazy and repulsive as the stuff some versions go on about 'eating the flesh and drinking the blood' of your imsginary hero.

Obviouly not worth continuing this discussion unless you show some sign of being prepared to give some account of why you bought into your particular version of the Christ myth, instead of just repeating magic phrases from it.

Where the f**k did the bit about me having to re-invent the wheel come from? Or was that just a not-so-subtle hint to me not to take any of your response too seriously... 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The nonsensicality of the Troll grew more obvious, though it was still quite easy...

Quote:
Still stuck, I see, in your fantasy world, with no connection to reality in any form. That's where you end up when you base your "Truth" on something as purely a product of ancient human fantasy and wishful-thinking as ancient (or even modern mash-up versions of) some crazy religious story.
god created reality, and jesus is the connection; stronger than any fiber-optic cable built by fallible humans.  The only human fantasy I see here is the one based on the big bang of evolution, and wishful thinking that atheists will not be held accountable for their actions.    

Quote:
Where the f**k did the bit about me having to re-invent the wheel come from? Or was that just a not-so-subtle hint to me not to take any of your response too seriously...
The atheists go round and round on their wheel, and get nowhere.  Re-inventing the wheel won't change that.  The only option is to follow a straight line to god (no reinvention required).  Take god un-seriously at your own risk.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Everything is cool . . no ?

Rev 8:1b-c -- there was silence in heaven

re:: Everything is cool . . no ?

Xth BRAHMANA (paraphrased)

When the person goes away from this world, she comes to the wind. Then the wind makes room for her, like the hole of "a carriage wheel", and through it then mounts higher. She comes to 'the sun'. Then the sun makes room for her, yes, like the hole of a Lambara, and through it he mounts higher, upon the Wheel of Life. When the sun comes to the moon. Then the moon makes room for him, like the hole of a drum, and through it he mounts higher, and arrives at the world where there is no more sorrow, no snow. There they dwell for eternal years.

On site no reply please See/View Uploaded Image (please, please)

:
:

Rev 8:1 -- there was silence in heaven

-- -- --

Other Off site --

Wise guy . .

7th sign/scroll --

The silent treatment or "stonewalling" refers to someone who is letting you know that something is wrong without telling you why. Or you can assume all sorts of things when you get the silent treatment. If you ask if anything is wrong, you are met with silence. There is no explanation, no response of any kind, only stony silence. I like to run, where hope reigns, but that is just me.

p.s. --

0ff - site | Oh p.p.s. -- Don't get it all mixed up . . now ! (tehe)


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THERE IS A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHO IS STUCK

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

WELL,  

       I wonder if old Bob is going to get the wheel re-invented 

       in time to get in the chariot

       and ride to The Judgment parking lot

       where he presents his form of righteousness (also proprietary)

       and see how he does..  .   .    .     .      .       .

 

       time is a wastin'

       will "experts" be surprised?  

       I have it from ROCK solid / ROCK accepting sources

       said "experts" will be had to the ultimate definition of "had"

       and in fact try to get under rocks * *  *   *    *     *      *       *

 

Still stuck, I see, in your fantasy world, with no connection to reality in any form. That's where you end up when you base your "Truth" on something as purely a product of ancient human fantasy and wishful-thinking as ancient (or even modern mash-up versions of) some crazy religious story. Possibly not quite as crazy and repulsive as the stuff some versions go on about 'eating the flesh and drinking the blood' of your imsginary hero.

Obviouly not worth continuing this discussion unless you show some sign of being prepared to give some account of why you bought into your particular version of the Christ myth, instead of just repeating magic phrases from it.

Where the f**k did the bit about me having to re-invent the wheel come from? Or was that just a not-so-subtle hint to me not to take any of your response too seriously... 

 

 

 

Bob,

As far as fantasy, the fact is that time is passing and there's a limit to your time alotted to play the idea game.   That's no fantasy - if not, explain.  

The fact that you are trying to be your own God  appears to be no fantasy - at least you've admitted to it, right?  You believe in yourself and the things you yourself have collected to believe as believable.      

If there is a God (which there IS) then you are being inefficient trying to come up with a poor imitation.  If that's true - then it's no fantasy that you're wasting time inefficiently trying to make a poor imitation of something that's already freely available.  I guess that could be represented by the wheel you seem to be stuck trying to re-invent.  

As far as "wishful thinking" - I hope you don't mean that I enjoy seeing you waste time re-inventing something to take you nowhere.  I don't.

I've tried to explain to you how I came to believe the gospel - but you don't really hear and you don't really believe me.  You have your own false impression which you rightfully reject.   It all makes sense to me.  In addition I have applied the gospel to life and that has caused me to KNOW it's all true.  It's fantasy to you - I understand that.  But it's reality to me.    

I can't see why you - being so blissfully satisfied with your way of life, fulfilled and all that - are irritated that I don't subscribe to your version of reality it or see it as right - because you already knew that.  What I'm telling you is the truth from my side.  I'm being honest with you which is what I would expect from you.  But my view on it seems - about everything - is different from yours.  I thought you knew that - so why are you irritated?  It's an irritation like you would expect with a guy that's STUCK.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Where's a support cause it's odd conclusion in view ofthe facts

*Cry* Surely the apocalypse is soon upon us all

re :: Where's the support because this is an odd conclusion, in view of the facts

The Fonz wrote:
but you don't really hear and you don't really believe me . . It all makes sense to me.

Dana wrote :: Great flaming wheels of Eternity! *Cry* Surely the apocalypse is soon upon us all ! ''Great flaming wheels of Eternity''

Thankfully the bible has the explanation for this opposition you've received (Thankfully the bible has the explanation for this opposition you've received)

Proverbs XIX - Condemnation is ready for Scoffers, and a real beating for the backs of fools.

2 Timothy 3:1-3 (English Translation)

But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, arrogant, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating of what is good, . .

Job 41
New King James Version (NKJV)

1 “Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook,
Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
2 Can you put a reed through his noses,
Or pierce his jaw(s) with a hook?
3 Will he make many supplications to you?
Will he speak softly to you?
4 Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him as a servant forever?
5 Will you play with him as with a bird,
Or will you leash him for your maidens?
6 Will your companions make a banquet of him?
Will they apportion him among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
15 His rows of scales are his pride,
Shut up tightly as with a seal;
16 One is so near another
That no air can come between them;
17 They are joined one to another,
They stick together and cannot be parted.
18 His sneezings flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lights;
Sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils,
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes out of his mouth.
29 Darts are regarded as straw;
He laughs at the threat of javelins.
33 On earth there is nothing like him,
Which is made without fear.
34 He beholds every high thing;
Leviathan is king over all the children of pride.

==============================================

On and Off site ::

Brannigan,_Begin_Again Quotes -

The Judge warns, May I remind you are still under oath. [Leela sighs.] LEELA once swore ''Your Honour, it's all true: My female incompetence, Zapp's cat-like reflexes, the stuff that made no sense to you, all of it, all of it is true!''


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

WELL,  

       I wonder if old Bob is going to get the wheel re-invented 

       in time to get in the chariot

       and ride to The Judgment parking lot

       where he presents his form of righteousness (also proprietary)

       and see how he does..  .   .    .     .      .       .

 

       time is a wastin'

       will "experts" be surprised?  

       I have it from ROCK solid / ROCK accepting sources

       said "experts" will be had to the ultimate definition of "had"

       and in fact try to get under rocks * *  *   *    *     *      *       *

 

Still stuck, I see, in your fantasy world, with no connection to reality in any form. That's where you end up when you base your "Truth" on something as purely a product of ancient human fantasy and wishful-thinking as ancient (or even modern mash-up versions of) some crazy religious story. Possibly not quite as crazy and repulsive as the stuff some versions go on about 'eating the flesh and drinking the blood' of your imsginary hero.

Obviouly not worth continuing this discussion unless you show some sign of being prepared to give some account of why you bought into your particular version of the Christ myth, instead of just repeating magic phrases from it.

Where the f**k did the bit about me having to re-invent the wheel come from? Or was that just a not-so-subtle hint to me not to take any of your response too seriously... 

 

 

 

Bob,

As far as fantasy, the fact is that time is passing and there's a limit to your time alotted to play the idea game.   That's no fantasy - if not, explain.  

The fact that you are trying to be your own God  appears to be no fantasy - at least you've admitted to it, right?  You believe in yourself and the things you yourself have collected to believe as believable.      

If there is a God (which there IS) then you are being inefficient trying to come up with a poor imitation.  If that's true - then it's no fantasy that you're wasting time inefficiently trying to make a poor imitation of something that's already freely available.  I guess that could be represented by the wheel you seem to be stuck trying to re-invent.  

As far as "wishful thinking" - I hope you don't mean that I enjoy seeing you waste time re-inventing something to take you nowhere.  I don't.

I've tried to explain to you how I came to believe the gospel - but you don't really hear and you don't really believe me.  You have your own false impression which you rightfully reject.   It all makes sense to me.  In addition I have applied the gospel to life and that has caused me to KNOW it's all true.  It's fantasy to you - I understand that.  But it's reality to me.    

I can't see why you - being so blissfully satisfied with your way of life, fulfilled and all that - are irritated that I don't subscribe to your version of reality it or see it as right - because you already knew that.  What I'm telling you is the truth from my side.  I'm being honest with you which is what I would expect from you.  But my view on it seems - about everything - is different from yours.  I thought you knew that - so why are you irritated?  It's an irritation like you would expect with a guy that's STUCK.   

From my perspective, you are clearly lost in a series of fantasies, which you obviously don't perceive as being fantasies - of course they are all 'real' to you. That's how our fantasies work. The whole God thing is the prime one, and then your assumptions about how I approach life from my point-of-view.

The 'wishful thinking' is another thing you are subject to - you so deeply wish that God is true and is behind everything that it has helped you convince yourself that you are right and I am fooling myself. And that I am trying to 're-invent' a God as an aswer to everything, which couldn't be further from the truth. I believe what you say about how you came to accept God, I just see it as a woefully inadequate basis for accepting that something as significant as a God actually exists.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
From my perspective, you are clearly lost in a series of fantasies, which you obviously don't perceive as being fantasies - of course they are all 'real' to you.
I can't be lost, because jesus has found me.  I perceive god as real to me, because god is real.

 

Quote:
That's how our fantasies work. The whole God thing is the prime one, and then your assumptions about how I approach life from my point-of-view.
Maybe that's how the fantasy of evoluton works, to deny creation.  god is the Prime Mover, and you have to assume the universe moves itself to deny god.

 

Quote:
The 'wishful thinking' is another thing you are subject to - you so deeply wish that God is true and is behind everything that it has helped you convince yourself that you are right and I am fooling myself.
I do wish that god is behind everything, and my wish just happens to be already be true.  

 

Quote:
I believe what you say about how you came to accept God, I just see it as a woefully inadequate basis for accepting that something as significant as a God actually exists.
I understand you find it woefully inadequate because you would rather be a god to yourself.  If you accepted god, you would realize how woefully inadquate your life was without him.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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> ( No Subject)

 

 RE::  No Subject

 

 

 


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Trying honestly to see from the other person’s point of view ?

 

 > (Lurkers)  Trying honestly to see from the other person’s point of view ?

  On and Off Site ::

 

 > How hard are we trying honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view ?

 

  

 

   Reminder  --  I'm Only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand!!



 

 

       ZEAL not tempered by the golden rule (or love) can make the most devout often the most dangerous. It was Judas Iscariot, the plotting backstabber  of the Passion  and Judas Iscariot was a zealot


It was Judas Iscariot, and Judas Iscariot was a zealot
 

 


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THIS FANTASY WORKS FOR ME

BobSpence wrote:

From my perspective, you are clearly lost in a series of fantasies, which you obviously don't perceive as being fantasies - of course they are all 'real' to you. That's how our fantasies work. The whole God thing is the prime one, and then your assumptions about how I approach life from my point-of-view.

The 'wishful thinking' is another thing you are subject to - you so deeply wish that God is true and is behind everything that it has helped you convince yourself that you are right and I am fooling myself. And that I am trying to 're-invent' a God as an aswer to everything, which couldn't be further from the truth. I believe what you say about how you came to accept God, I just see it as a woefully inadequate basis for accepting that something as significant as a God actually exists.

 

 

 

Bob,

My fantasy was good and fulfilling this week.  I saw a bunch of stars and galaxies on my morning walk - a precisely clocked moon was also on view.  There were burl oak acorns (in each sleeps a forest) in the graveyard this morning on my walk enjoyed by deer where dashes seldom approach 90+ years apart.  The pampas grass like torches on the sides of my parent's gravestone are dormant but still looking good for the winter.  There was a field of harvested corn full of bowling ball weight geese (GPS guided self-fueling, self-regenerating flying machines) fueling up for a trip, watching, wary.  I'm expecting a call from my son in San Diego where the sun sets beautifully in throw-away art on the Pacific.  The temperature has dropped to 16 but of course the body will take a 100 + degree range - even mine of over 25,000 days.  I wached a video of a newborn mountain sheep on Bing getting around easily on 60 degree slope rock the first week.  My youngest grandson- he's 2 (of 6, one grandaughter) can recite the pledge of allegiance.  And my Bible tells me how God spoke the world into existence -  He saw that it was good.  I'm enjoying it in fellowship and in the Presence of God and Jesus.

 

   

 

 

 

 


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I find puzzles rather entertaining/ enjoyable

re:: I find puzzles rather entertaining/ enjoyable

See where I took this Uploaded Image from esoteric gnosticism. Thought I'd share, it truly has such interesting symbolism . . .

http://i57.tinypic.com/eb6l42.jpg and/or http://tinypic.com/r/eb6l42/8 and/or http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=eb6l42&s=8


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Fonzie wrote:Bob,My fantasy

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

My fantasy was good and fulfilling this week.  I saw a bunch of stars and galaxies on my morning walk - a precisely clocked moon was also on view.  There were burl oak acorns (in each sleeps a forest) in the graveyard this morning on my walk enjoyed by deer where dashes seldom approach 90+ years apart.  The pampas grass like torches on the sides of my parent's gravestone are dormant but still looking good for the winter.  There was a field of harvested corn full of bowling ball weight geese (GPS guided self-fueling, self-regenerating flying machines) fueling up for a trip, watching, wary.  I'm expecting a call from my son in San Diego where the sun sets beautifully in throw-away art on the Pacific.  The temperature has dropped to 16 but of course the body will take a 100 + degree range - even mine of over 25,000 days.  I wached a video of a newborn mountain sheep on Bing getting around easily on 60 degree slope rock the first week.  My youngest grandson- he's 2 (of 6, one grandaughter) can recite the pledge of allegiance.  And my Bible tells me how God spoke the world into existence -  He saw that it was good.  I'm enjoying it in fellowship and in the Presence of God and Jesus.

The only fantasy I see in your account are the final, and totally gratuitous, references to the Bible, God, and Jesus. I can assure you from many personal life experiences that it is totally possible, and normal, to enjoy the world around you just as you describe, without any thoughts or reference to such supernatural delusions. In fact the feelings can be greatly enhanced, certainly for me, by an true understanding of how it is all truly connected, as can be conveyed by Science.

In other words, the Bible and beliefs in God and Jesus are totally unnecessary to a fulfilling and enjoyable life experience.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
The only fantasy I see in your account are the final, and totally gratuitous, references to the Bible, God, and Jesus. I can assure you from many personal life experiences that it is totally possible, and normal, to enjoy the world around you just as you describe, without any thoughts or reference to such supernatural delusions.
You are content to simply enjoy the lilies of the field, but choose not to enjoy the magical hand of the Invisible Gardener who planted them.  As the bible says, you're missing out.

Quote:
In fact the feelings can be greatly enhanced, certainly for me, by an true understanding of how it is all truly connected, as can be conveyed by Science.

In other words, the Bible and beliefs in God and Jesus are totally unnecessary to a fulfilling and enjoyable life experience.

jesus is the True Connection, between god and man, as conveyed by the bible.  god and jesus are totally necessary for fulfillment and enjoyment in the life to come.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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I do indeed choose not to

I do indeed choose not to believe in totally imaginary things like 'the magical hand' of an 'invisible gardener' - what is there to 'enjoy' about that? I gave up reading fairy tales a long time ago. The Bible conveys only ancient ideas of little or no value to anyone genuinely interested in Truth. I challenge anyone to demonstrate the 'truth' of the Bible.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Tell Us a Story . . Here's an important story, . . .

Fonzie wrote:

 

 

 The Fonz wrote ::

 There was a field of harvested corn full of bowling ball weight geese (GPS guided self-fueling, . . flying machines) fueling up for a trip, watching, wary. 

 

 

 

    I guess this is a 'bulletin board' for ideas (, or a Bulletin Board~galore)

 

The Pole Star and the Seven Rishis

The Pole Star and the Seven Rishis (originally from the Srimad-Bhagavatam, a commentary of a Hindu religious text)

 

Tell Us a Story

by C. Friedman

 

Long ago, King Uttanapada had two queens. His first wife was Sunita, who was kind and gentle and who gave birth to a boy she named Dhruva. The king's other wife was Suruchi. She was young and beautiful and her son was Uttama. By rights, Dhruva would be the one to take his father's place as king when he was grown. But Suruchi was determined to make her own son king, and so she and Uttama worked to make Uttama the favorite son. One day, when Dhruva was 5 years old, the two princes were playing together when King Uttanapada entered the room. The boys raced toward him, but before they reached his side, Uttama began to taunt Dhruva and said, "Can't you see the way he loves me better? You weren't born to the proper queen." Uttama's taunts went on: "If you wish to be loved, you will have to go to see the great god Vishnu, preserver of the world, to ask for a blessing." Dhruva was terribly upset, but afterward his mother tried to console him. "Come, my child," she said. "Perhaps your half-brother is right. Let us send you to seek a blessing from the Lord." There seemed nothing else to do, and so Dhruva set off on a long journey into the forest. He was determined to win his rightful place in his father's affections. As he walked, the divine sage known as Narada noticed the boy's firm determination. Narada, wise and mischievous, decided he must help the boy. And so he appeared before Dhruva. "Do not be so hard on yourself," The great sage Narada told Dhruva: My dear boy, you are only a little boy of five years whose attachment is to sports and icky girls and other frivolities. Why are you so affected by words insulting your honor ? What's with the dissatisfaction. This kind of dissatisfaction is another feature of the illusory energy; every living entity is controlled by his previous actions, and therefore there are different varieties of life for enjoying or suffering. But, He would not return home without seeking Vishnu's blessing. And when Narada understood this, he decided he would take the child under his guidance. "I will teach you the rituals and mantras you will need to know if you are to survive such a quest," he said. Dhruva's lessons began, and they were difficult, but nothing seemed to alter his determination. He memorized and even gave up food and water for months, with his mind fixed upon seeing the Lord. His concentration was so very fierce and so focused, his meditations shook the very Earth. Nearby, the Seven Rishis, or sages -- also known as the Saptarishis -- were meditating, and they could not imagine a person who could possess so much power in meditation. When they discovered it was only a boy, they surrounded him and prayed for him. After a while, Indra, king of the gods, began to worry that the boy may wish to have his throne in the heavens. He decided he must try to distract Dhruva from his meditation, and so he took the form of the boy's mother and appeared before him. "Please, son, come home. I miss you too terribly," said Indra in disguise. But Dhruva's concentration was so great, he did not even hear. And so Indra decided he must try another distraction, and he sent snakes and monsters and spiders to the spot in the forest where Dhruva sat. But the boy remained still and calm, thinking only of his Lord. At long last, after many months of this, Vishnu himself felt the strength of the boy's meditation, and he knew he must grant him any wish. Lord Vishnu came down to the forest, stood before Dhruva and said, "I, Lord Vishnu, am here. I have heard your desires. What do you want?" But Dhruva only smiled. He did not move. By this time, he had overcome all his desires, except to be heard by the Lord. He had forgotten even the objective that had sent him into the forest, and now he wished only to live a life in memory of Lord Vishnu. Vishnu granted his wish, and he decided the boy would attain Dhruvapada -- that is, he would become a celestial body, untouched by the world. Dhruva returned to his kingdom, where his family welcomed him, and when he was 6, he attained the crown. For the next decades, he ruled, and he was a fair and just king. After this, Vishnu placed him in the sky, high above the world, far from jealousy and evil and competition. As for the Saptarishis, or seven rishis, who had protected him on Earth, Vishnu turned them into stars as well. These he placed around the star called Dhruva. All these centuries later, if you look at up the sky, you can see the star known as Dhruva Tara -- Dhruva Star -- though some call this unmoving body the pole star. And you can see the seven stars moving slowly around it in the constellation known as Saptarishi, or the Great Bear.

 

. . .

 

 


  Labeled Misc. --  I just found this too cute . . .

 

 

||  

 


Fonzie
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CHOOSE YOUR CHOICE

BobSpence wrote:

I do indeed choose not to believe in totally imaginary things like 'the magical hand' of an 'invisible gardener' - what is there to 'enjoy' about that? I gave up reading fairy tales a long time ago. The Bible conveys only ancient ideas of little or no value to anyone genuinely interested in Truth. I challenge anyone to demonstrate the 'truth' of the Bible.

 

 

Bob,

Of course you're free to believe in your researched speculation and live out your life with no concern about me and my faith in the risen Christ living within me, guiding me, disciplining me.  I can't create faith in you or "demonstrate" truth to your unbelief (as in; "come down off the cross and we'll believe", or "what mighty work do you do that we may believe in You?).  Faith by demonstration in your dictates wouldn't be the Faith that The Word of God produces which is acceptable to God.

There is a passage in The Revelation that says, "would that you were hot or cold - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  In that sense I think there's hope for you.  You aren't lukewarm or hiding your unbelief with dissemination and guile (or pasting anything and everything and muddying the waters like one of Sapient's sock puppets) but open about it to yourself and everybody here.

In Christ there is plenty to share without diminishing the supply - so no worries there.  And you are part of a large group I've met that doesn't believe in Christ, the Word of God and the Gospel (the "good news" of HIS Substitutionary Death), God the Father, God the Shepherd, God the Gardener, God the Physician, Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life, etc., etc..  So you really aren't representing non-conformity or uniqueness or creativity in that.  It's one of those things under the sun that's "nothing new".  But light has risen in darker places (Manasseh, Saul of Tarsus, Rahab).  It is a modern day miracle raising the spiritually dead by being "born anew" in Christ.    

 

 

 

  


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RE:: Offsite might misunderstand w/ this but I'll say it any-way

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZuDR5hISvU {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZuDR5hISvU}
 

re:: Off site might continue to 'misunderstand' with this but I'll say it anyway -- Read comments on the entire page from me

 Although, This comment will both 'Cost me' and detract from what I was doing

 

Many lurkers aren't very Cyber savvy

re:: Off-site might continue to 'misunderstand' w/ this but I'll say it any way Exclusive for Lurkers about the OP --

Honest, Sir Troll wrote:
. . muddying the waters like one of Sapient's sock puppets

 

   You're not very bright, in the end ? Now are you ?!??  Are you about done ?!??? At what point is 'nice' no longer called for ?!? Whatever!?!! Sir "badge holder" !! You know (0P), be very careful, Lying about a person or making up false allegations is a serious matter. It might be prudent, for anyone of us, to stop all your speculating based solely on whatever I've posted and simply stop (as in just STOP)!! In a word it's about time you "repented of it" . . "if you all struggle with the Truth of this" it might be because of two things, for some people. One -- You do NOT have any knowledge of life on this board. You stay in your little cave and wait for people to come to you. Which is as 'ridiculous, on a grand scale', as if you were asking people to literally spoon feed you every meal. There are times when nobody would believe for a second, you were over the age of 35, bub!! Besides, Where do you get off ?!!!!?!!! And Two -- You have no idea, including the lurkers, just who on this board has even ever used a Sock puppet. Ironically, especially for this 0P, we come to this stupidity once again!! Note: Who has used them, well, it's was almost ALWAYS exclusively proselytizers, underneath, of those who came to the board! Who sooner or later seem to get deeply frustrated; then, act like a bunch of five year olds, and then decide they want a "new start". So, Instead of earning the right to be heard, 'they' violate the Forum's rules and use what's known as a Sock-puppet (ex. Mr. Jeano, Pa/Twd39, and about five others).

p.p.s. -- If you or lurkers don't get my sense of humor, well, join the crowd!!  Btw, This Ring any bells, huh!!  View Uploaded Cartoon -

 

 



  There  IS an answer  . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZuDR5hISvU {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZuDR5hISvU}

 

And "Now" with this video . . it's fun again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L0OEVfPvj4 {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L0OEVfPvj4}


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote: Bob,Of course

Fonzie wrote:
 

Bob,

Of course you're free to believe in your researched speculation and live out your life with no concern about me and my faith in the risen Christ living within me, guiding me, disciplining me.  I can't create faith in you or "demonstrate" truth to your unbelief (as in; "come down off the cross and we'll believe", or "what mighty work do you do that we may believe in You?).  Faith by demonstration in your dictates wouldn't be the Faith that The Word of God produces which is acceptable to God.

There is a passage in The Revelation that says, "would that you were hot or cold - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  In that sense I think there's hope for you.  You aren't lukewarm or hiding your unbelief with dissemination and guile (or pasting anything and everything and muddying the waters like one of Sapient's sock puppets) but open about it to yourself and everybody here.

In Christ there is plenty to share without diminishing the supply - so no worries there.  And you are part of a large group I've met that doesn't believe in Christ, the Word of God and the Gospel (the "good news" of HIS Substitutionary Death), God the Father, God the Shepherd, God the Gardener, God the Physician, Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life, etc., etc..  So you really aren't representing non-conformity or uniqueness or creativity in that.  It's one of those things under the sun that's "nothing new".  But light has risen in darker places (Manasseh, Saul of Tarsus, Rahab).  It is a modern day miracle raising the spiritually dead by being "born anew" in Christ.    

And just what exactly gives you such confidence that your particular supernatural beliefs are True and all others (Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish,Taoism, etc, etc) are not?

What ultimately distinguishes a Scientific/Rationalist approach to life is how we decide what is most likely to be true when confronted with conflicting claims, based on logic, amount and strength of supporting evidence and argument, with ancient ideas counting for nothing by themselves, no matter the authority that may be invested in them in popular culture.

That passage in Revelation you quote just demonstrates what a vile and hateful spirit is behind so much of the "Good Book" - 'suck up to me or else I'll torture you forever'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
And just what exactly gives you such confidence that your particular supernatural beliefs are True and all others (Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish,Taoism, etc, etc) are not?
My confidence comes from following the One True god, and the Bible warns that there will be false prophets.

Quote:
What ultimately distinguishes a Scientific/Rationalist approach to life is how we decide what is most likely to be true when confronted with conflicting claims, based on logic, amount and strength of supporting evidence and argument, with ancient ideas counting for nothing by themselves, no matter the authority that may be invested in them in popular culture.
Atheists may wish to decide what is true, when the Truth is eternal, and absolute (not just likely).  

Quote:
That passage in Revelation you quote just demonstrates what a vile and hateful spirit is behind so much of the "Good Book" - 'suck up to me or else I'll torture you forever'.
Your naturalistic mind mis-translated the passage.  If you put on your spiritual glasses, you would see it says - 'accept my gift of eternal salvation (that I paid for with my/my son's life), and you will be spared being tortured forever'.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


BobSpence
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So your confidence that you

So your confidence that you have chosen the 'one true God' comes from your confidence that you have made the correct choice? So you still haven't explained what gives you such confidence in that particular choice. Other people display similar confidence in different beliefs. What makes you infallible?

Truth about anything should be always true, ie, eternel, but we ALL have to start with is a CLAIM to truth, and all we can do in reality is establish how LIKELY any such CLAIM is to be true. That is all I and any rational skeptic, or even atheist, would or should claim, NOT a matter of 'deciding what is true'. We use evidence and research to decide which claim, if any, is most worthy of treating as corresponding to Eternal Truth.

Your words do NOT explain how a loving God could even consider subjecting ANYONE to eternal torture for anything. His son is claimed to have come back to life, so he did not 'pay' for anything with his son's life in any way that would make sense to any mortal being. What is horrific about the prospect of death is that it is FOREVER, not just a few days.

In any case, if someone really has committed an evil act, that normally implies they have seriously harmed some other person, and it is that person or perhaps their surviving family and friends who are owed some redress, so your 'salvation' nonsense is meaningless, even offensive, to me - it is a very selfish concept, wanting to personally avoid consequences for some act, while not giving priority to making up to the people we have actually harmed by that act. So the Salvation idea is NOT  moral.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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FULL ASSURANCE - NOT INFALLIBILITY

BobSpence wrote:

So your confidence that you have chosen the 'one true God' comes from your confidence that you have made the correct choice? So you still haven't explained what gives you such confidence in that particular choice. Other people display similar confidence in different beliefs. What makes you infallible?

Truth about anything should be always true, ie, eternel, but we ALL have to start with is a CLAIM to truth, and all we can do in reality is establish how LIKELY any such CLAIM is to be true. That is all I and any rational skeptic, or even atheist, would or should claim, NOT a matter of 'deciding what is true'. We use evidence and research to decide which claim, if any, is most worthy of treating as corresponding to Eternal Truth.

Your words do NOT explain how a loving God could even consider subjecting ANYONE to eternal torture for anything. His son is claimed to have come back to life, so he did not 'pay' for anything with his son's life in any way that would make sense to any mortal being. What is horrific about the prospect of death is that it is FOREVER, not just a few days.

In any case, if someone really has committed an evil act, that normally implies they have seriously harmed some other person, and it is that person or perhaps their surviving family and friends who are owed some redress, so your 'salvation' nonsense is meaningless, even offensive, to me - it is a very selfish concept, wanting to personally avoid consequences for some act, while not giving priority to making up to the people we have actually harmed by that act. So the Salvation idea is NOT  moral.

 

Bob,

It's not "confidence in confidence" - it's confidence in Jesus.  I can't explain something I don't understand myself (as to how I came to faith in Christ).  It's somewhat of a mystery to me how it came about.  

And I didn't and don't claim to be infallible (not sure where you came up with that).  It is however important that a person is able to live and act without doubts because to do something having doubt would not be acting in faith.  I am testing the Object of my faith every day and Jesus proves worthy of my total faith, confidence, assurance.  I guess you are testing the object (s) of your faith every day too?  

It's important that you find something you can have total faith in under constant testing.  I have.  And I have decided as I said that Jesus is TRUE - actually the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Since my faith in Jesus is testing out every day as Right, my confidence in Him is increasing (in His Words, His History, His Righteousness, His Sacrifice and His Promises for the future).  

As far as the question - what about other guys that claim to be something.  Neither you nor I are infallible but we each need to decide Who and What are worthy of that total confidence.  I have made my choice - Jesus.  You are making and testing your choice.  I can't choose for you or tell you how to come to my conclusion.  I can only tell you how great it is...to me.  You tell me how great your choice is but my choice is so great to me I'm not the least interested in your choice - which you haven't been able to adequately describe.  The thing about it is, it's serious.  We want to be fully assured about What or Who we are putting all our faith and confidence in.  I am sure myself.  I have no doubts in Jesus.  

The other question about how God governs the universe (as described in the Word of God) is not a question I can answer.  I don't know why Jesus had to die to pay for all the sins of mankind for all time, being the Perfect Lamb of God.  But it does show how serious sin is to God.  Plus, it shows how serious God is about His Own Justice - if anybody could have found a way around Jesus' Death God could; in fact, Jesus said, "If it is possible let this cup pass from Me".  It wasn't possible.  I didn't design this Bob but I accept it.  Whether or not you accept it is up to you.  

As far as Hell, I would say this:  We don't want to wait until we understand why there's a Hell when it's too late to accept the Gift of Grace in Christ's substitutionary death.  You can talk big now about it (and if it's not true why bother BTW) but you won't then on the Day of the LORD.  

Salvation is a Gift from God (Grace).  You can mock it - the Bible says it is foolishness to those being lost but to us being saved it is the Power of God.   

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: Bob,It's not

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

It's not "confidence in confidence" - it's confidence in Jesus.  I can't explain something I don't understand myself (as to how I came to faith in Christ).  It's somewhat of a mystery to me how it came about.  

And I didn't and don't claim to be infallible (not sure where you came up with that).  It is however important that a person is able to live and act without doubts because to do something having doubt would not be acting in faith.  I am testing the Object of my faith every day and Jesus proves worthy of my total faith, confidence, assurance.  I guess you are testing the object (s) of your faith every day too?  

It's important that you find something you can have total faith in under constant testing.  I have.  And I have decided as I said that Jesus is TRUE - actually the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Since my faith in Jesus is testing out every day as Right, my confidence in Him is increasing (in His Words, His History, His Righteousness, His Sacrifice and His Promises for the future).  

As far as the question - what about other guys that claim to be something.  Neither you nor I are infallible but we each need to decide Who and What are worthy of that total confidence.  I have made my choice - Jesus.  You are making and testing your choice.  I can't choose for you or tell you how to come to my conclusion.  I can only tell you how great it is...to me.  You tell me how great your choice is but my choice is so great to me I'm not the least interested in your choice - which you haven't been able to adequately describe.  The thing about it is, it's serious.  We want to be fully assured about What or Who we are putting all our faith and confidence in.  I am sure myself.  I have no doubts in Jesus.  

The other question about how God governs the universe (as described in the Word of God) is not a question I can answer.  I don't know why Jesus had to die to pay for all the sins of mankind for all time, being the Perfect Lamb of God.  But it does show how serious sin is to God.  Plus, it shows how serious God is about His Own Justice - if anybody could have found a way around Jesus' Death God could; in fact, Jesus said, "If it is possible let this cup pass from Me".  It wasn't possible.  I didn't design this Bob but I accept it.  Whether or not you accept it is up to you.  

As far as Hell, I would say this:  We don't want to wait until we understand why there's a Hell when it's too late to accept the Gift of Grace in Christ's substitutionary death.  You can talk big now about it (and if it's not true why bother BTW) but you won't then on the Day of the LORD.  

Salvation is a Gift from God (Grace).  You can mock it - the Bible says it is foolishness to those being lost but to us being saved it is the Power of God.   

You are not realling answering my questions. You have not explained why you have total confidence in Jesus, rather than the central figure of some other religion. Or which book you decided to trust - which version of the Bible, or why not the Book of Mormon, say. I don't put total trust in any one book or author, and have often changed what I consider my currently best trusted source for some particular subject area which seems very different to your approach.

If you are making your decision on who or what to trust so absolutely, that is why it seems to me you are assuming personal infallibility. 'Subsitutionary death' seems to me a primitive concept, not far from the really primitive and once widespread idea of "Blood Sacrifice'. I am talking about precicely because it seems to plsy s significant part in so many people's ideas of right and wrong, which are very important in how our society works and affects everybody. I actually think I have a fair idea of why you hold these beliefs -  our conversation has helped me adjust my understanding of your thought processes. Since I see essentially no justification for taking any of your Bible references as likely to contain even the smallest grain of truth, I have no worries about what might happen on "the Day of the LORD".

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
You are not realling answering my questions. You have not explained why you have total confidence in Jesus, rather than the central figure of some other religion.
jesus is the Truth (and Light...and god), and gives a confidence no false god can give.  It may be a mystery which I can't explain, but that makes it no less true.  I can only invite you to share in the Truth/mystery.

 

Quote:
Or which book you decided to trust - which version of the Bible, or why not the Book of Mormon, say. I don't put total trust in any one book or author, and have often changed what I consider my currently best trusted source for some particular subject area which seems very different to your approach.
The bible is not just a book, but the eternal Word.  And it has many authors (not just one), but all have the same source:  god.

 

Quote:
If you are making your decision on who or what to trust so absolutely, that is why it seems to me you are assuming personal infallibility.
I don't assume I'm personally infallible.  Only god is infallible, and that is no assumption, but Revelation.  


 

Quote:
I actually think I have a fair idea of why you hold these beliefs -  our conversation has helped me adjust my understanding of your thought processes. Since I see essentially no justification for taking any of your Bible references as likely to contain even the smallest grain of truth, I have no worries about what might happen on "the Day of the LORD".
I hold these beliefs because god has revealed them to me (don't ask me to explain).  You will not find the Truth unless you adjust your thought processes to accept god

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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 The existence of God is

 The existence of God is purely an assumption, totally unprovable. Any characteristics of such an entity, such as 'infallibility', can only be pure assumptions,

also totally unprovable.  The personal conviction of an individual that some claim is 'true' can of itself prove nothing about the actual truth of that claim.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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JESUS HIMSELF HASN'T SATISFIED YOUR QUESTIONS - LEAST OF ALL ME

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

It's not "confidence in confidence" - it's confidence in Jesus.  I can't explain something I don't understand myself (as to how I came to faith in Christ).  It's somewhat of a mystery to me how it came about.  

And I didn't and don't claim to be infallible (not sure where you came up with that).  It is however important that a person is able to live and act without doubts because to do something having doubt would not be acting in faith.  I am testing the Object of my faith every day and Jesus proves worthy of my total faith, confidence, assurance.  I guess you are testing the object (s) of your faith every day too?  

It's important that you find something you can have total faith in under constant testing.  I have.  And I have decided as I said that Jesus is TRUE - actually the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Since my faith in Jesus is testing out every day as Right, my confidence in Him is increasing (in His Words, His History, His Righteousness, His Sacrifice and His Promises for the future).  

As far as the question - what about other guys that claim to be something.  Neither you nor I are infallible but we each need to decide Who and What are worthy of that total confidence.  I have made my choice - Jesus.  You are making and testing your choice.  I can't choose for you or tell you how to come to my conclusion.  I can only tell you how great it is...to me.  You tell me how great your choice is but my choice is so great to me I'm not the least interested in your choice - which you haven't been able to adequately describe.  The thing about it is, it's serious.  We want to be fully assured about What or Who we are putting all our faith and confidence in.  I am sure myself.  I have no doubts in Jesus.  

The other question about how God governs the universe (as described in the Word of God) is not a question I can answer.  I don't know why Jesus had to die to pay for all the sins of mankind for all time, being the Perfect Lamb of God.  But it does show how serious sin is to God.  Plus, it shows how serious God is about His Own Justice - if anybody could have found a way around Jesus' Death God could; in fact, Jesus said, "If it is possible let this cup pass from Me".  It wasn't possible.  I didn't design this Bob but I accept it.  Whether or not you accept it is up to you.  

As far as Hell, I would say this:  We don't want to wait until we understand why there's a Hell when it's too late to accept the Gift of Grace in Christ's substitutionary death.  You can talk big now about it (and if it's not true why bother BTW) but you won't then on the Day of the LORD.  

Salvation is a Gift from God (Grace).  You can mock it - the Bible says it is foolishness to those being lost but to us being saved it is the Power of God.   

You are not realling answering my questions. You have not explained why you have total confidence in Jesus, rather than the central figure of some other religion. Or which book you decided to trust - which version of the Bible, or why not the Book of Mormon, say. I don't put total trust in any one book or author, and have often changed what I consider my currently best trusted source for some particular subject area which seems very different to your approach.

If you are making your decision on who or what to trust so absolutely, that is why it seems to me you are assuming personal infallibility. 'Subsitutionary death' seems to me a primitive concept, not far from the really primitive and once widespread idea of "Blood Sacrifice'. I am talking about precicely because it seems to plsy s significant part in so many people's ideas of right and wrong, which are very important in how our society works and affects everybody. I actually think I have a fair idea of why you hold these beliefs -  our conversation has helped me adjust my understanding of your thought processes. Since I see essentially no justification for taking any of your Bible references as likely to contain even the smallest grain of truth, I have no worries about what might happen on "the Day of the LORD".

 

 

 

 

Bob,

One thing that continually supports my choice of God, Jesus and the Bible is that It is All One.  It is All The Master's Voice Throughout.  It All Is in Harmony, going the same direction.

Abraham "believed GOD and GOD counted it (his faith) as righteousness".  Abraham wasn't infallable either BTW nor did he claim to be.  But faith is a flame that requires the whole being of man - physical and spiritual - to maintain.  Sin would bring on darkness.  With no spiritual food the flame of faith would go out.  Blessed is the man to whom the LORD doesn't recon sin because of his faith.  

You remember the account where God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, "on a mount I will show you" - which turned out to be the mount on which the temple was to eventually be built.  Abraham obeyed and was ready to slay his son when God stopped him - there was a ram caught in the thicket provided as a substitute.  Abraham believed if he did sacrifice his son God was able to raise him from the dead - so, in effect he received Isaac as if back from the dead (a picture clue of what was to come).  What God stopped Abraham from doing He was pleased Himself to do - it pleased God to bruise Him, Jesus "became sin for us", the mystery hidden for ages was revealed, Jesus became sin for us and solved man's main problem:  man had fallen, was spiritually dead, man had lost his God.  God bought us back and paid the Price Himself in Christ.  

At the point Jesus died the curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom opening the way into the Holy Place to all.  Before only the High Priest went into the Holy Place - only once a year - and he took a sacrifice to pay the interest until Jesus came and paid the principle.  In Christ we all are priests, saints and have access to God (in Christ).  

On the first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover) God wrote His Law on tablets of stone on Mount Sinai.  On the last Pentecost (50 days after JESUS THE PASSOVER LAMB, THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD was Sacrificed) God started writing His Law on human hearts.  I have no need of proof therefore from man because as Scripture says, "you shall all Know Me".  God and Christ and The Holy Spirit come and make Their Home in us, and we walk in the Light of The Spirit.  We know the Way we are going.  

When I was "born anew" I was given the promised, "Gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts the first), even though I was a baby in Christ and didn't even know it for a long time.  I was as vulnerable as a lamb among wolves - but I had something going for me:  THE SHEPHERD.  I have been guided and taken care of by THE GOOD SHEPHERD all these years, have fed on the Bread that is Bread Indeed:  the Holy Scriptures.  I have my own Eternal Spring (the Spirit)  refreshing me.  I also have had the Light of the Holy Spirit on my path and though I am not the brightest bulb on the tree I Know my Master's Voice.  I have read some of those other books you mentioned and they're not my Master's Voice - thus I'm not the least concerned about them.  You can sort it out for yourself and make your choice.  I've made mine.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Bob,One thing

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

One thing that continually supports my choice of God, Jesus and the Bible is that It is All One.  It is All The Master's Voice Throughout.  It All Is in Harmony, going the same direction.

Abraham "believed GOD and GOD counted it (his faith) as righteousness".  Abraham wasn't infallable either BTW nor did he claim to be.  But faith is a flame that requires the whole being of man - physical and spiritual - to maintain.  Sin would bring on darkness.  With no spiritual food the flame of faith would go out.  Blessed is the man to whom the LORD doesn't recon sin because of his faith.  

You remember the account where God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, "on a mount I will show you" - which turned out to be the mount on which the temple was to eventually be built.  Abraham obeyed and was ready to slay his son when God stopped him - there was a ram caught in the thicket provided as a substitute.  Abraham believed if he did sacrifice his son God was able to raise him from the dead - so, in effect he received Isaac as if back from the dead (a picture clue of what was to come).  What God stopped Abraham from doing He was pleased Himself to do - it pleased God to bruise Him, Jesus "became sin for us", the mystery hidden for ages was revealed, Jesus became sin for us and solved man's main problem:  man had fallen, was spiritually dead, man had lost his God.  God bought us back and paid the Price Himself in Christ.  

At the point Jesus died the curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom opening the way into the Holy Place to all.  Before only the High Priest went into the Holy Place - only once a year - and he took a sacrifice to pay the interest until Jesus came and paid the principle.  In Christ we all are priests, saints and have access to God (in Christ).  

On the first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover) God wrote His Law on tablets of stone on Mount Sinai.  On the last Pentecost (50 days after JESUS THE PASSOVER LAMB, THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD was Sacrificed) God started writing His Law on human hearts.  I have no need of proof therefore from man because as Scripture says, "you shall all Know Me".  God and Christ and The Holy Spirit come and make Their Home in us, and we walk in the Light of The Spirit.  We know the Way we are going.  

When I was "born anew" I was given the promised, "Gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts the first), even though I was a baby in Christ and didn't even know it for a long time.  I was as vulnerable as a lamb among wolves - but I had something going for me:  THE SHEPHERD.  I have been guided and taken care of by THE GOOD SHEPHERD all these years, have fed on the Bread that is Bread Indeed:  the Holy Scriptures.  I have my own Eternal Spring (the Spirit)  refreshing me.  I also have had the Light of the Holy Spirit on my path and though I am not the brightest bulb on the tree I Know my Master's Voice.  I have read some of those other books you mentioned and they're not my Master's Voice - thus I'm not the least concerned about them.  You can sort it out for yourself and make your choice.  I've made mine.  

 

Interesting.

I think I can better grasp just what you mean by your oft repeated expression "it works for me". IOW your beliefs fit naturally into the background narrative you grew up with, even if, for a while, as you say, you didn't fully accept it.

Since I did not grow up in such an environment, but one more skeptically inclined, it was never likely to "work for me", for which I am eternally grateful. It meant I didn't have to spend precious time peeling the scales from my eyes to face the reality of a world where a more Science-based understanding of the Universe we find ourself in had begun to acquire a foothold. I have heard many friends I have come to know through this site, and others, describe their path away from faith, and while they may well have gained some extra insight into the problems faith can bring with it, I feel my by-passing of that process gave me a headstart on understanding what Science has to teach us, which has certainly "worked for me".

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Interesting.

I think I can better grasp just what you mean by your oft repeated expression "it works for me". IOW your beliefs fit naturally into the background narrative you grew up with, even if, for a while, as you say, you didn't fully accept it.

My beliefs fit naturally into the background narrative, because god is the Narrator.  

Quote:
Since I did not grow up in such an environment, but one more skeptically inclined, it was never likely to "work for me", for which I am eternally grateful. It meant I didn't have to spend precious time peeling the scales from my eyes to face the reality of a world where a more Science-based understanding of the Universe we find ourself in had begun to acquire a foothold.
Even if you did not grow up in the Flock, jesus will gladly let you in.  It is never too late for a goat to evolve into a sheep (before the day of judgement, at least). How can you be "eternally grateful" when you believe Nothing comes after your brief moment on this mortal plain?  You have put your faith in Science and avoided the Truth, like the man who was blind from birth until jesus rubbed  magic saliva in his eyes, and the scales peeled away  (John 9).

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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BOB'S RESEARCHED SHIPWRECK DOCUMENTARIES

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

One thing that continually supports my choice of God, Jesus and the Bible is that It is All One.  It is All The Master's Voice Throughout.  It All Is in Harmony, going the same direction.

Abraham "believed GOD and GOD counted it (his faith) as righteousness".  Abraham wasn't infallable either BTW nor did he claim to be.  But faith is a flame that requires the whole being of man - physical and spiritual - to maintain.  Sin would bring on darkness.  With no spiritual food the flame of faith would go out.  Blessed is the man to whom the LORD doesn't recon sin because of his faith.  

You remember the account where God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, "on a mount I will show you" - which turned out to be the mount on which the temple was to eventually be built.  Abraham obeyed and was ready to slay his son when God stopped him - there was a ram caught in the thicket provided as a substitute.  Abraham believed if he did sacrifice his son God was able to raise him from the dead - so, in effect he received Isaac as if back from the dead (a picture clue of what was to come).  What God stopped Abraham from doing He was pleased Himself to do - it pleased God to bruise Him, Jesus "became sin for us", the mystery hidden for ages was revealed, Jesus became sin for us and solved man's main problem:  man had fallen, was spiritually dead, man had lost his God.  God bought us back and paid the Price Himself in Christ.  

At the point Jesus died the curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom opening the way into the Holy Place to all.  Before only the High Priest went into the Holy Place - only once a year - and he took a sacrifice to pay the interest until Jesus came and paid the principle.  In Christ we all are priests, saints and have access to God (in Christ).  

On the first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover) God wrote His Law on tablets of stone on Mount Sinai.  On the last Pentecost (50 days after JESUS THE PASSOVER LAMB, THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD was Sacrificed) God started writing His Law on human hearts.  I have no need of proof therefore from man because as Scripture says, "you shall all Know Me".  God and Christ and The Holy Spirit come and make Their Home in us, and we walk in the Light of The Spirit.  We know the Way we are going.  

When I was "born anew" I was given the promised, "Gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts the first), even though I was a baby in Christ and didn't even know it for a long time.  I was as vulnerable as a lamb among wolves - but I had something going for me:  THE SHEPHERD.  I have been guided and taken care of by THE GOOD SHEPHERD all these years, have fed on the Bread that is Bread Indeed:  the Holy Scriptures.  I have my own Eternal Spring (the Spirit)  refreshing me.  I also have had the Light of the Holy Spirit on my path and though I am not the brightest bulb on the tree I Know my Master's Voice.  I have read some of those other books you mentioned and they're not my Master's Voice - thus I'm not the least concerned about them.  You can sort it out for yourself and make your choice.  I've made mine.  

 

Interesting.

I think I can better grasp just what you mean by your oft repeated expression "it works for me". IOW your beliefs fit naturally into the background narrative you grew up with, even if, for a while, as you say, you didn't fully accept it.

Since I did not grow up in such an environment, but one more skeptically inclined, it was never likely to "work for me", for which I am eternally grateful. It meant I didn't have to spend precious time peeling the scales from my eyes to face the reality of a world where a more Science-based understanding of the Universe we find ourself in had begun to acquire a foothold. I have heard many friends I have come to know through this site, and others, describe their path away from faith, and while they may well have gained some extra insight into the problems faith can bring with it, I feel my by-passing of that process gave me a headstart on understanding what Science has to teach us, which has certainly "worked for me".

 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

No, wrong again.  I wasn't in an environment of truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit but rather "we're right and everybody else is wrong" with faith in accurate ceremony.  I experienced tearing away from those early ingrained beliefs and I understand how hard those are to give up and fully escape from.  I should have in reality been innoculated from the real thing with what I saw and heard growing up rather than end up finding the Real Thing.  (And skepticism was alive and well in the '60's BTW - you have no corner on that)    

And where do you think faith in God interferes with studying science?  I can happily study all the science I want just as easy as you - without asking more of it than it has to give.  While it's true that I don't accept your speculation about what happened a few billion years ago that you don't know and nobody else does either - nor even totally believe your scientific weather report of what's going to happen tomorrow (experts are often surprised maybe you notice) - I do enjoy science, apply science and plan to study, enjoy and apply more.  

You have no idea of what my life is all about Bob.  You have your strawman idea which you reject but it has little to do with me.  

As far as your documentary of people shipwrecking their faith - I think I see how your research project "works for you".  You simply find guys that say what you want to hear and surf on their wave. You probably enjoy all those "wipeout" stories don't you - the convention of losers.  Those guys aren't heroes in my book.  With God's help I'll avoid their carlessness, defeat, thinking and mistake.  I don't plan to be asleep at the switch but take every thought captive and duck walk it to be checked out with the Word of God for soundness.

It does "work for me" in an exciting and happy, strength felt and upward mobile way Bob and that's the truth.  The strength of that is in realizing my weakness - IOW knowing where The Real Strength is.  Like Paul said, "when I am weak, then I am strong."

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:Bob,No, wrong

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

No, wrong again.  I wasn't in an environment of truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit but rather "we're right and everybody else is wrong" with faith in accurate ceremony.  I experienced tearing away from those early ingrained beliefs and I understand how hard those are to give up and fully escape from.  I should have in reality been innoculated from the real thing with what I saw and heard growing up rather than end up finding the Real Thing.  (And skepticism was alive and well in the '60's BTW - you have no corner on that)    

And where do you think faith in God interferes with studying science?  I can happily study all the science I want just as easy as you - without asking more of it than it has to give.  While it's true that I don't accept your speculation about what happened a few billion years ago that you don't know and nobody else does either - nor even totally believe your scientific weather report of what's going to happen tomorrow (experts are often surprised maybe you notice) - I do enjoy science, apply science and plan to study, enjoy and apply more.  

You have no idea of what my life is all about Bob.  You have your strawman idea which you reject but it has little to do with me.  

As far as your documentary of people shipwrecking their faith - I think I see how your research project "works for you".  You simply find guys that say what you want to hear and surf on their wave. You probably enjoy all those "wipeout" stories don't you - the convention of losers.  Those guys aren't heroes in my book.  With God's help I'll avoid their carlessness, defeat, thinking and mistake.  I don't plan to be asleep at the switch but take every thought captive and duck walk it to be checked out with the Word of God for soundness.

It does "work for me" in an exciting and happy, strength felt and upward mobile way Bob and that's the truth.  The strength of that is in realizing my weakness - IOW knowing where The Real Strength is.  Like Paul said, "when I am weak, then I am strong."

Sorry, it is still you who have it wrong again: was not saying or assuming you were in an environment of "truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit", just that (I assumed) you were in an environment  that was much more strongly oriented toward religious observance of some kind than I was. Are you saying that the culture you were surrounded by was athesistic/skeptical? If so, I do apologise.

While it is true that some areas of Science do not obviously conflict with all religious teachings, there is certainly strong conflict with some religious views, such as Creationism and belief in the Biblical Flood. You are already conceding that your beliefs conflict with the cuurent theories about the origin of the Universe, which do have a much firmer grounding than you want to imply, so please stop denying that your beliefs conflict with Science. I thought you were better informed than fools like Ken Ham. We don't need to observe some event in the here-and-now to have justified confidence that we have useful knowledge about it. If you don't accept that, you clearly do NOT understand or accept Science. You further demonstrate your wilful refusal to accept the reality that many people leave faith and belief behind after considering their position much more seriously and carefully than before.

I may have to concede that your reply here suggests I was a bit optimistic in assuming I really understood where you are coming from.

You still clearly don't understand my position - I do not have a "research project" in any sense; you are still stuck on this erroneous assumption. You certainly have no conception of what my life "is all about". For example, I certainly don't just look for people that "say what I want to hear"; I believe that ones ideas need to be continually tested against different ideas held by other people.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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-t w-s st-ll q--t- --sy...

Quote:
Sorry, it is still you who have it wrong again: was not saying or assuming you were in an environment of "truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit", just that (I assumed) you were in an environment  that was much more strongly oriented toward religious observance of some kind than I was.
You shouldn't assume at all, unless you're assuming the Truth of christ, because then your assumptions would be True. god gives us the freedom to orient ourselves in any direction we choose, but if it's the Truth you seek, orient yourself towards the Light.

Quote:
While it is true that some areas of Science do not obviously conflict with all religious teachings, there is certainly strong conflict with some religious views, such as Creationism and belief in the Biblical Flood. You are already concwding that your beliefs conflict with the cuurent theories about the origin of the Universe, which do have a much firmer grounding than you want to imply, so please stop denying that your beliefs conflict with Science.
Where science matches Scripture, it has discovered the Truth.  Where it conflicts with Scripture, it betrays atheist scientists'desire to deny god, and their faith in Nothing.

Quote:
I may have to concede that your reply here suggests I was a bit optimistic in assuming I really understood where you are coming from.
First you must overcome the pessimism of Science, which tells you you'renothing but atoms, with Nothing to come after you die.  Then you can understand where we are coming from (the Creator), and the optimism of everlasting life.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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NOT ROCKET SCIENCE - FAITH AND COMPREHENSION

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

No, wrong again.  I wasn't in an environment of truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit but rather "we're right and everybody else is wrong" with faith in accurate ceremony.  I experienced tearing away from those early ingrained beliefs and I understand how hard those are to give up and fully escape from.  I should have in reality been innoculated from the real thing with what I saw and heard growing up rather than end up finding the Real Thing.  (And skepticism was alive and well in the '60's BTW - you have no corner on that)    

And where do you think faith in God interferes with studying science?  I can happily study all the science I want just as easy as you - without asking more of it than it has to give.  While it's true that I don't accept your speculation about what happened a few billion years ago that you don't know and nobody else does either - nor even totally believe your scientific weather report of what's going to happen tomorrow (experts are often surprised maybe you notice) - I do enjoy science, apply science and plan to study, enjoy and apply more.  

You have no idea of what my life is all about Bob.  You have your strawman idea which you reject but it has little to do with me.  

As far as your documentary of people shipwrecking their faith - I think I see how your research project "works for you".  You simply find guys that say what you want to hear and surf on their wave. You probably enjoy all those "wipeout" stories don't you - the convention of losers.  Those guys aren't heroes in my book.  With God's help I'll avoid their carlessness, defeat, thinking and mistake.  I don't plan to be asleep at the switch but take every thought captive and duck walk it to be checked out with the Word of God for soundness.

It does "work for me" in an exciting and happy, strength felt and upward mobile way Bob and that's the truth.  The strength of that is in realizing my weakness - IOW knowing where The Real Strength is.  Like Paul said, "when I am weak, then I am strong."

Sorry, it is still you who have it wrong again: was not saying or assuming you were in an environment of "truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit", just that (I assumed) you were in an environment  that was much more strongly oriented toward religious observance of some kind than I was. Are you saying that the culture you were surrounded by was athesistic/skeptical? If so, I do apologise.

While it is true that some areas of Science do not obviously conflict with all religious teachings, there is certainly strong conflict with some religious views, such as Creationism and belief in the Biblical Flood. You are already conceding that your beliefs conflict with the cuurent theories about the origin of the Universe, which do have a much firmer grounding than you want to imply, so please stop denying that your beliefs conflict with Science. I thought you were better informed than fools like Ken Ham. We don't need to observe some event in the here-and-now to have justified confidence that we have useful knowledge about it. If you don't accept that, you clearly do NOT understand or accept Science. You further demonstrate your wilful refusal to accept the reality that many people leave faith and belief behind after considering their position much more seriously and carefully than before.

I may have to concede that your reply here suggests I was a bit optimistic in assuming I really understood where you are coming from.

You still clearly don't understand my position - I do not have a "research project" in any sense; you are still stuck on this erroneous assumption. You certainly have no conception of what my life "is all about". For example, I certainly don't just look for people that "say what I want to hear"; I believe that ones ideas need to be continually tested against different ideas held by other people.

 

 

 

 

Bob,

You seem to state that if I don't have faith (your faith) I can't understand or accept  science (your science).  

...which is not true about science because science isn't God; but the principle DOES HOLD with understanding and accepting Jesus, God, Truth, the Gospel and the Bible.  You can't understand that since you don't believe God or believe in God.  He therefore hasn't  Lit it up for you.   Scientifically speaking - you have an absence of LIGHT on the whole subject.  

In this case however you are not dealing with a hammered out science book but THE LIVING GOD Who Knows everything about you and deals with you respectfully, justly and honestly.  You are snared with the cords of your sin.  He offers the solution to the real problem.  And it's not rocket science Bob.  Shut off the magnetic shield and listen.     

It is the Glory of God to conceal things - but the glory of kings is to search things out.