The Stages of Belief

Presuppositionalist
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The Stages of Belief

As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

STAGE ONE: Birth to Adolescence, appx <16 yrs.

Child is born to religious parents. He absorbs various doctrines through church, family, and friends, never (or very rarely) questioning them. He may have one or more highly emotional religious experiences.

STAGE TWO: Adolescence to Early Adulthood, appx 16-20 yrs.

The individual begins to question his religion. As his intellect is not yet fully developed, he has the ability to ask difficult questions, but not necessarily to answer them. Although exceptionally virtuous individuals remain religious even over this time period, many do not. Their minds fail, and they degenerate philosophically. (Degeneration is accelerated if friends or relatives are unbelievers or at least not overtly religious.) They usually become nihilists if they happen to read Neitzsche. Those with slightly greater moral fiber, who recognise at least that there is some sort of objective moral law, may become philosophical Buddhists for the strict moral code. Others, perhaps of a scientific persuasion, become pantheists to impress their friends with their superficially "deep" philosophical insight. But all are degenerate philosophies, patchwork guesses tacked over a need for real philosophy, and their adherents cannot stay adherents for very long.

STAGE THREE: Early Adulthood to Maturity, appx 20-30 yrs.

The mind completes its development in the early twenties. As a result, the individual begins to realise that nihilism (or Buddhism, or pantheism) is an inconsistent and unlivable worldview. He knows that he needs a worldview with structure, something that will give him political and epistemic philosophies. However, he is still hesitant to accept religion, having built up a resistance to it in his early years. At this stage, he embraces some sort of pseudo-systematic philosophy, perhaps Objectivism or some variant on Marxism. But the worldview is an ad hockery, a construct intended to cushion his aversion to the sacred, and deep down he knows this. Thus, after a few years, the fouth stage.

STAGE FOUR: Maturity, appx >30 yrs.

In time, the mature individual finally comes to grips with the failure of all his arguments against religion. Consequently, he also acknowledges the silliness of the ad hoc worldview to which he holds, and dismisses it. He finally realizes that his need for a systematic metaphysical, epistemic, moral, political philosophy was right back where he began so many years ago: in the Holy Bible. He begins reading theology and Christian philosophy, and chortles at the naivete of the arguments that were so convincing in his early years. Thus closes the circle.

 

A few comments:

I know that some people never leave Christianity in the first place. As I explained, that is because they have exceptional moral fiber, but they might also be exceptionally intelligent. I also know that some people never leave nihilism, Buddhism, or whatever other worldview they latch onto. This is because they either (a) lack moral fiber or (b) their minds never fully develop.

I await your intelligent criticisms.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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The Stages of Presup Posting

STAGE ONE: Initiate brain self-destruct, t-2min

 

Read the bible, give it a hug.  It's the smartest book evar!  And I read it and am thus associatively smarter!

 

STAGE TWO: Begin crafting made-up bullshit, t-1min

 

  Write down whatever comes to mind.  Don't think about it too long.  Make sure to make as many factual statements per sentence as possible without evidence or citation.  Heck, the bible doesn't have citations, neither should you! 

 

STAGE THREE: Stroke your ego, t-10sec

 

Be highly passive-aggressive in your implications of superiority.  Humility is only for non-christians.  Your philosophy has a monopoly on morality, so much self-praise is well deserved.  Chortle with glee.

 

STAGE FOUR: Irreversible brain death.

 

 

The Stages of Rational Response

 

STAGE ONE: Irritation

 

Become irritated by unsupported claims.  Experience some nausea from the overabundance of nonsense.

 

STAGE TWO:  Recovery

 

Take two tums and prepare to reply with some defensible facts.  Ready your citations, check facts, proof read.  Think it over a little bit more and realize it's time to hit "send."


STAGE THREE: Epiphany

 

A moment of clarity.  You realize your words and effort are wasted as you remember the original poster has suffered irreversible brain death.  Copy and paste, save your reply for another day.

 

STAGE FOUR: Begin the healing

 

Engage in mockery.

Scientific illiteracy is reality illiteracy.


MichaelMcF
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Last things

Last things first

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

Criticism of what exactly?  You're post is winding and blatantly baited with various wordplays to imply that other world views are either degenerate or non-virtuous but I'll leave others to take that bait.

 

You only make one real claim here and it is this:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

Reference please?  Your entire post hinges on this being accurate.  If it's not accurate then it's either conjecture or trolling on your part and therefore not worth anyone's time.  If on the other hand you can provide stats for these 'stages' (without tainted commentary on validity of belief) then we can talk.

 

M

 

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


Presuppositionalist
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Ubermensch wrote:STAGE

Ubermensch wrote:

STAGE TWO:  Recovery

 

Take two tums and prepare to reply with some defensible facts.  Ready your citations, check facts, proof read.  Think it over a little bit more and realize it's time to hit "send."


STAGE THREE: Epiphany

 

A moment of clarity.  You realize your words and effort are wasted as you remember the original poster has suffered irreversible brain death.  Copy and paste, save your reply for another day.

See now this is interesting. You claim you have citations and evidence, yet you provide none of it. Or were you talking about someone else when you said "rational response"?

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


Presuppositionalist
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MichaelMcF wrote:Last things

MichaelMcF wrote:

Last things first

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

Criticism of what exactly?  You're post is winding and blatantly baited with various wordplays to imply that other world views are either degenerate or non-virtuous but I'll leave others to take that bait.

 

You only make one real claim here and it is this:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

Reference please?  Your entire post hinges on this being accurate.  If it's not accurate then it's either conjecture or trolling on your part and therefore not worth anyone's time.  If on the other hand you can provide stats for these 'stages' (without tainted commentary on validity of belief) then we can talk.

 

M

 

It was in an article somewhere. I have to look it up but I don't think I can find it. Of course, you won't believe me since I'm a theist and theists are dumb liars and evil people in general and you are Mr. White Hat Cowboy riding off into the sun to crush the evil Biblethumpers. (At least, that's what I expect based on my experiences here thus far.)

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist wrote:I

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

What's there to criticise ? Seems to me you're just describing your own life. There's nothing in there that applies to me, or any theist or atheist I ever talked to.


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Presuppositionalist wrote:In

Presuppositionalist wrote:
In time, the mature individual finally comes to grips with the failure of all his arguments against religion.

When I'm in my thirties, I'll accept that the outermost layer of our atmosphere has the solidity of a cast metal mirror, like Job did, and know I have moral fiber. I'll also share my jello with my friend Presuppositionalist at the psyche ward.

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


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Stage 1: Realize

Stage 1: Realize Christianity is an incoherent system of obscurantist non-concepts predicated on fairy tales thought up by ancient Palestinian goat-herders.

Move on.

 

The End


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You don't really deserve

You don't really deserve intelligent criticisms, seeing as you are just making shit up. Just because you write it doesn't mean it is true.

I wasn't raised in the modern USA, I'm in Australia, but I shall try to fit my life into your stages:

1: <16 yrs

Raised in non-religious family. Told to learn about religion and make up my own mind. Went to church with very religious grandparents, went on bible camps with friends. Realized that religion is very silly and doesn't make any sense. Possibly agnostic on the whole god issue, but definately not in the form of any known religion.

2: 16 to 20 years

Pretty much the same, don't think I thought about it that much. Each to their own.

3: 20 to 30 years

Quite firm in the view that religion is silly and very religious people are mad. Aware of the problems that religion has caused, but didn't care too much.

4: 30 years till present.

Read the God Delusion last year because my wife bought it. Became more actually aware of the extent of religion and the damage it is doing. Got angry. Joined the RRS. Started reading the bible (still going in fits and starts, but have already realized how insane it is), can't believe people actually believe that shit!!! Calmed down.

Now a happy, healthy, balanced atheist.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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Presuppositionalist wrote:It

Presuppositionalist wrote:
It was in an article somewhere. I have to look it up but I don't think I can find it. Of course, you won't believe me since I'm a theist and theists are dumb liars and evil people in general and you are Mr. White Hat Cowboy riding off into the sun to crush the evil Biblethumpers. (At least, that's what I expect based on my experiences here thus far.)

*Cue Violins in the background with the sound of children crying*...

Please, the appeal for sympathy because everyone is mean to you is beneath you.  Hell it's beneath most 12 year olds.

 

I've found myself in a similar situation recently concerning a theory on evolution to do with "New Lamarckism".  There were some challenging but believable claims in the article, but I couldn't find the article again so I didn't post about it.  Why?  So I'm not making provocative statements or claims to knowledge without being able to back them up.

So while I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about there being an article I still won't believe your claim.   Not because you're a theist but because I hold anyone and everyone, including myself, to the same standard.

 

M

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

MichaelMcF wrote:

Last things first

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

Criticism of what exactly?  You're post is winding and blatantly baited with various wordplays to imply that other world views are either degenerate or non-virtuous but I'll leave others to take that bait.

 

You only make one real claim here and it is this:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

Reference please?  Your entire post hinges on this being accurate.  If it's not accurate then it's either conjecture or trolling on your part and therefore not worth anyone's time.  If on the other hand you can provide stats for these 'stages' (without tainted commentary on validity of belief) then we can talk.

 

M

 

It was in an article somewhere. I have to look it up but I don't think I can find it. Of course, you won't believe me since I'm a theist and theists are dumb liars and evil people in general and you are Mr. White Hat Cowboy riding off into the sun to crush the evil Biblethumpers. (At least, that's what I expect based on my experiences here thus far.)

Given that you claim that those who have beliefs other than yours are intellectually and morally deficient, you deserve any criticism you get.

Don't most folks give up their imaginary friends in their preschool years?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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First of all, oh my God

First of all, oh my God you're funny.

Presuppositionalist wrote:
As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

You could have just written "This is from my ass. I retrieved this massive truth from my ass."

Presuppositionalist wrote:
They usually become nihilists if they happen to read Neitzsche.

Okay, so you've never read Nietzsche. Not really surprising.

Presuppositionalist wrote:
I know that some people never leave Christianity in the first place. As I explained, that is because they have exceptional moral fiber, but they might also be exceptionally intelligent. I also know that some people never leave nihilism, Buddhism, or whatever other worldview they latch onto. This is because they either (a) lack moral fiber or (b) their minds never fully develop.

I love the instant moral superiority angle. So only Christianity matches those of us with moral fiber? Which Christianity, pray tell?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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I actually believed until I

I actually believed until I was 16 and then considered myself agnostic. I was 31 when I realized I was an atheist. I'm 34 now and still realize relgion is bullshit.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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MattShizzle wrote:I actually

MattShizzle wrote:

I actually believed until I was 16 and then considered myself agnostic. I was 31 when I realized I was an atheist. I'm 34 now and still realize relgion is bullshit.

You had the belief in the Invisble Sky Daddy reinforced on a nearly constant level. Only natural to keep behavoirs when you're rewarded for them (or indoctrinated to them)

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Quote:It was in an article

Quote:
It was in an article somewhere.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you.......    Credulity.

Quote:
I have to look it up but I don't think I can find it.

Particularly since there are people here skilled in dissecting and analyzing research methods...

Quote:
Of course, you won't believe me since I'm a theist and theists are dumb liars and evil people in general and you are Mr. White Hat Cowboy riding off into the sun to crush the evil Biblethumpers.

And this rationalization is all I need to continue believing.  After all, atheists are dumb liars and evil people in general and theists are Mr. White Hat Cowboys riding off into the sun to crush the evil nonbelievers.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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HAHAHAHA FUCKING HILARIOUS

Moral fibers of christians OH YEAH I FORGOT, that same religious institution that was responsible for killing people because they weren't christians, taking children from their parents because their parents were jews, hating jews and discriminating against them because they were all Jesus killers (even though jesus is a jew), having priests molest alter boys and other children, the same institution that also helped HIDE these priest from persecution for a long time. The same MORAL institution and christians that murdered natives and tried to kill of their culture because they where "barbarians". The one's who's own book tells them of a story in which god tells his followers to kill the samaritans, their children and their women that are pregnant...yeah MORAL FIBRE MY ASS. Yet buddhists don't have moral fibre? sheesh, at least during the tsunami that hit south east asia, buddhist went and help without requesting anything in return, while missionaries wouldn't give out food or help unless people converted to christianity, yeah moral fibre, how about you go shove that stupid mentality of yours up your ass as it probably would do far better work fermenting in the same shit as those thoughts that you have believing christians are the only morally correct people. At least learn something christians are by far not moral, they brought about the dark ages, persecuted those who seeked knowledge or knew better than the church, herbalist where witches, or devil followers, many scientists were persecuted because their findings found the teachings of the church were wrong (Galileo anyone?), massive abuse of power keeping warfare going because of religious differences (Ireland, crusades, Rwanda and various other conflicts), taking the money from their followers (hell you can still pay priests off to get  less time in purgatory) and depending what offense you had done to the church, your entire estate could go to the church up until the late 19th century. christians are the only moral ones is like saying the english are the only ones with good teeth. what a fucking maroon Laughing out loud


Presuppositionalist
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Anonymouse

Anonymouse wrote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

What's there to criticise ? Seems to me you're just describing your own life. There's nothing in there that applies to me, or any theist or atheist I ever talked to.

That was not my life. I've always been a Christian.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:
I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

What's there to criticise ? Seems to me you're just describing your own life. There's nothing in there that applies to me, or any theist or atheist I ever talked to.

That was not my life. I've always been a Christian.

Are you a person of exceptional moral fiber or exceptional intelligence?

or

Are you just a liar?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Presuppositionalist wrote:As

Presuppositionalist wrote:

As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

Please show me the stats, because I know you don't have them.

Quote:
STAGE ONE: Birth to Adolescence, appx <16 yrs.

Child is born to religious parents. He absorbs various doctrines through church, family, and friends, never (or very rarely) questioning them. He may have one or more highly emotional religious experiences.

Correction: I counter your anecdotal evidence with my own anecdotal evidence:

Stage 1.0: Childhood. Age 0 to approx 5-6 years.

Child believes pretty much everything he is told. He has simply not gained enough independent intelligence to determine what is truth and what is deception. By the end of this stage, he starts to have doubts. Sometimes people lie. Santa for example seems somehow strange, but the child can't quite put his finger on why.

Stage 1.1: Age of Reason. Age 5-6 to approx 9 years.

The child passes through the 'age of reason', and begins to question things. Everything in fact. Santa was clearly a deception. The child figured it out on his own when it became apparent that his parents were the ones behind it all. Tooth Fairy, Bogeyman, God, ET the Extraterrestrial, and all those other imaginary creatures seem to fall in the same category of things that people make up to entertain themselves. Strangely, some people seem to hold on to these beliefs, but the child can't figure out why.

Stage 1.2: Age of Enlightenment. Age 9 to approx 11 years.

Child begins to think independently and to hold his own opinions. He reads stories from Greek mythology, of Jason and the Argonauts, of Heracles, of Zeus and Prometheus. That Prometheus guy is pretty cool! His name means 'forethought', and he stole fire from the gods so that he could enlighten humankind. For some reason, Zeus got mad and punished him for it. That Zeus guy is an asshole. Fun stories. But the child sees that other kids have their own mythologies, such as this story of some guy named Jesus. What's up with that? Hey guys! Why do you believe this Jesus guy is real? He's just a story like Jason or Heracles, or Santa. What?! No, I'm not a devil worshiper? Where the hell did that come from? These 'true believers' are assholes.

Stage 1.3: Age of Angst. Age 12 -16.

Child begins to realize that something is seriously fucked up. Why do all these people believe all these crazy things? Why do they fight wars over what amounts to an opinion held as a sacred truth? This can't be right. Don't they see that we have come so far from mystical mythology with logic, reason, and science? Don't they see that their comforting stories are just stories? I guess not. Well, let them do their fucked up shit, I'm going to learn as much as I can so I can break out of this crazy system.

Quote:
STAGE TWO: Adolescence to Early Adulthood, appx 16-20 yrs.

The individual begins to question his religion. As his intellect is not yet fully developed, he has the ability to ask difficult questions, but not necessarily to answer them. Although exceptionally virtuous individuals remain religious even over this time period, many do not. Their minds fail, and they degenerate philosophically. (Degeneration is accelerated if friends or relatives are unbelievers or at least not overtly religious.) They usually become nihilists if they happen to read Neitzsche. Those with slightly greater moral fiber, who recognise at least that there is some sort of objective moral law, may become philosophical Buddhists for the strict moral code. Others, perhaps of a scientific persuasion, become pantheists to impress their friends with their superficially "deep" philosophical insight. But all are degenerate philosophies, patchwork guesses tacked over a need for real philosophy, and their adherents cannot stay adherents for very long.

WTF? No, your anecdote is just another example of the fucked up comfort-blanket war-spawning religious bullshit. Here's a better anecdote (since I know you don't have any real stats to back up your silly claims):

Stage 2.0: Age of Discovery. Age 16-18.

The individual is way past 'questioning religion'. It is already clear that religion is some throwback to an ancient time. But if religion is false, what is true? Let's look at some of that science in more detail. WOW! This is incredible stuff! And it's backed up by evidence, and you can try it out for yourself, and it all works. And what's even better is that it all fits together. Whereas faith causes disagreement and division, evidence causes agreement and convergence. The individual discovers that by using science and reason, he can actually make real changes in the world around him. That's far more impressive than the wishful thinking of prayer and faith.

Stage 2.1: Age of the Quest. Age 19-23.

The individual is determined to apply his new insights into something useful and worthwhile. He doesn't quite know what, exactly, but it appears that University is one of the best ways to get there, wherever 'there' is. He meets all sorts of different people, people he had never imagined he would meet. People who are on their own quests of sorts. People searching for knowledge, as he is. He interacts with them and learns that the world is a much bigger place than he previously imagined. He discusses religion and finds that there is a huge variety of religion, but the religious people all seem to think theirs is the most obvious and best. Of course God is a liberal, just like me. Of course God is Love, just as I yearn for love. Of course God is abstract and unknowable, just as I am confused about reality. The individual sees that religion is not just an ancient throwback, but a constantly changing and evolving thing. This religion problem seems even bigger than he originally thought. But leave all those people to their deranged beliefs, I'll just get on with my own life. The individual begins to develop a more mature philosophy, and tests his philosophy against the other philosophers he meets. He finds that none seem to have any serious challenges against science, and in fact most tend to have little understanding of science, except the scientists. And wow, do those scientists ever have some amazingly mind-bending ideas!

Quote:
STAGE THREE: Early Adulthood to Maturity, appx 20-30 yrs.

The mind completes its development in the early twenties. As a result, the individual begins to realise that nihilism (or Buddhism, or pantheism) is an inconsistent and unlivable worldview. He knows that he needs a worldview with structure, something that will give him political and epistemic philosophies. However, he is still hesitant to accept religion, having built up a resistance to it in his early years. At this stage, he embraces some sort of pseudo-systematic philosophy, perhaps Objectivism or some variant on Marxism. But the worldview is an ad hockery, a construct intended to cushion his aversion to the sacred, and deep down he knows this. Thus, after a few years, the fouth stage.

What? That's totally backwards! Here's how it really works (anecdotally, of course):

Stage 3.0: Age of the Trial. Age 23-26.

The individual knew that nihilism was a dead end years ago! Back in the Age of Angst, he saw that nihilism is completely pointless and is tantamount to giving up. The individual has already for years been building up his own philosophy based on pragmatism, and it works very well. He dabbled somewhat in panpsychism, but after studying computers, math, and science, especially physics and biology, he realized that structures and processes are important, and that intelligence can be described in terms of structure, meaning that some structures display more intelligence than others, and there's no need to postulate that atoms have any complex experiences, since they are relatively much simpler structures than human brains. The individual sees Objectivists and Marxists as just another example of comfort-blanket dogmatists, and will have nothing to do with those philosophies. the individual starts a career and begins to make a living for himself, using the skills and talents he's gained to make real changes in the world.

Stage 3.1: Age of Confusion. Age 26-28.

The individual pursues his career, and reaches the 'top', so to speak. He realizes that the corporate world and egoistic culture he has been raised in is just another comfort-blanket mythology. He is not happy. The world is not just fucked up for other people, it's fucked up for everyone, including himself. To top it off, the world is headed for shit. He is shocked by 9/11. He starts to look for a unifying answer to it all. He knows it's not God. Thankfully he won't get hooked by that bait-and-switch. He knows there must be a real core to his philosophy and decides to try to figure it out.

Stage 3.2: Age of Wonder. Age 29-32.

The individual joins some websites with like-minded people. He starts to discuss philosophy and politics, especially the politics of religion, since religion appears to be one of the biggest culprits. He realizes that while the things that religion teaches are false, religions themselves are real entities, real 'structures' so to speak. They can be studied like any pragmatic science would study any real world structure. He realizes that the mind-altering effects of religion are also real. He starts to apply evolutionary thinking to religious phenomena, and sees that religions are clearly evolving in much the same process as DNA evolves. He starts to experiment with altered states of consciousness. He starts to think, What is it that is at the foundation of my philosophy. And he realizes that the foundation is his sense of wonder. His curiosity. His drive to ask questions and not be satisfied with non-answers. His dream of a better world. He is far beyond any ancient mythology, but he now understands why people are attracted to it. He starts to see possible ways of overcoming this problem of religion, and nihilism, and consumerist culture. He starts to see new ways that he can make changes in the world.

Quote:
STAGE FOUR: Maturity, appx >30 yrs.

In time, the mature individual finally comes to grips with the failure of all his arguments against religion. Consequently, he also acknowledges the silliness of the ad hoc worldview to which he holds, and dismisses it. He finally realizes that his need for a systematic metaphysical, epistemic, moral, political philosophy was right back where he began so many years ago: in the Holy Bible. He begins reading theology and Christian philosophy, and chortles at the naivete of the arguments that were so convincing in his early years. Thus closes the circle.

Yeah right. Bullshit. This does not describe the individual at all. It's a straw man.

Who knows what will really happen. Nothing can be known to 100% certainty. But some things *can* be known, at least enough to be confident about.

We will study religions and other cultural memes to the point that we finally have some conscious and intelligent control over them. We will apply forethought to the design of our society. We will become Prometheus himself. Whether the nutjobs in power push the button before we get a handle on culture is anybody's guess. But the pragmatist and the wonderist will keep trying anyway, for they have a dream of a better future. Not the end of the world, but the beginnings of new worlds!

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

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STAGE ONE: Find your comfort

STAGE ONE: Find your comfort zone and ignore contradictory stimuli.

There's no stage two.


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MattShizzle wrote:I actually

MattShizzle wrote:

I actually believed until I was 16 and then considered myself agnostic. I was 31 when I realized I was an atheist. I'm 34 now and still realize relgion is bullshit.

Ha ha! Another proof! Proof proof PRROOOF PRrOoFf proofproofproof.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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HisWillness wrote:I love the

HisWillness wrote:

I love the instant moral superiority angle. So only Christianity matches those of us with moral fiber? Which Christianity, pray tell?

Probably the ones that tell us to burn in hell and send death threats.

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Stage 3 and 4, for a

Stage 3 and 4, for a majority of people, would include the following socially "expected" occurrences:

Marriage and children.

This is where a man or woman in search of a mate may have to make a few choices in their beliefs to reach their goal of marriage and breeding: Find someone with like ideals or conform to the beliefs of the person that is being courted. I would LOVE to know how many "theists" out their really truly believe vs those who felt it was the only way to secure a mate.

 

At stage 4 a person begins to come to the realization that their time on earth is drawing to a close and if they still cling to even a shred of the belief they were indoctrinated with in the early stages, they may reach out and grasp that to calm the fear of death. They may also seek that piece of their childhood out in response to questions from their offspring.

 

 

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ronin-dog wrote:HisWillness

ronin-dog wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

I love the instant moral superiority angle. So only Christianity matches those of us with moral fiber? Which Christianity, pray tell?

Probably the ones that tell us to burn in hell and send death threats.

Is there a list of those somewhere? I mean, there are lots of types of Christianity to chose from, so I'm confused as to which one is the one that fits perfectly with good moral fiber, or whatever it was.

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Quote:But the worldview is

Quote:

But the worldview is an ad hockery,

Sorry, I'm not a hockery fan... most I can bring myself to do is root for whatever team is playing against the NY Rangers.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Presuppositionalist wrote:As

Presuppositionalist wrote:

As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

Many do and many don't, look at you.  You need a reference here for your claim.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

STAGE ONE: Birth to Adolescence, appx <16 yrs.

Child is born to religious parents. He absorbs various doctrines through church, family, and friends, never (or very rarely) questioning them. He may have one or more highly emotional religious experiences.

This is dependent on environment. I went to parochial schools and had very religious parents. I questioned all the time but accepted the modified narrow view I was taught until my 20's.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

STAGE TWO: Adolescence to Early Adulthood, appx 16-20 yrs.

The individual begins to question his religion. As his intellect is not yet fully developed, he has the ability to ask difficult questions, but not necessarily to answer them. Although exceptionally virtuous individuals remain religious even over this time period, many do not.

Virtue as defined by a religion may not be a virtue at all. Killing infidels is virtuous to some.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Their minds fail, and they degenerate philosophically. (Degeneration is accelerated if friends or relatives are unbelievers or at least not overtly religious.) They usually become nihilists if they happen to read Neitzsche.

Or perhaps their mind is opened and reason and logic errode the years of Goebbels style indoctrination performed by parents and misrepresentative theology.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Those with slightly greater moral fiber, who recognise at least that there is some sort of objective moral law, may become philosophical Buddhists for the strict moral code.

Based on what standard? Rejecting extremist Islam, Kool-aid death cults, or Man is Evil from birth concepts may indicate  a very high degree of  moral fiber.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Others, perhaps of a scientific persuasion, become pantheists to impress their friends with their superficially "deep" philosophical insight. But all are degenerate philosophies, patchwork guesses tacked over a need for real philosophy, and their adherents cannot stay adherents for very long.

Pure speculation.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

STAGE THREE: Early Adulthood to Maturity, appx 20-30 yrs.

The mind completes its development in the early twenties. As a result, the individual begins to realise that nihilism (or Buddhism, or pantheism) is an inconsistent and unlivable worldview. He knows that he needs a worldview with structure, something that will give him political and epistemic philosophies. However, he is still hesitant to accept religion, having built up a resistance to it in his early years. At this stage, he embraces some sort of pseudo-systematic philosophy, perhaps Objectivism or some variant on Marxism. But the worldview is an ad hockery, a construct intended to cushion his aversion to the sacred, and deep down he knows this. Thus, after a few years, the fouth stage.

Again, pure speculation. I changed religions to Catholic from Lutheran, primarily because my wife was Catholic. I spent weeks in preparation and understood more of Catholicism than I had as a Lutheran. I never accepted all of the doctrine though.

As I went through college I learned many things about religion and the Church that were repressed or downplayed in my religious education.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

STAGE FOUR: Maturity, appx >30 yrs.

In time, the mature individual finally comes to grips with the failure of all his arguments against religion. Consequently, he also acknowledges the silliness of the ad hoc worldview to which he holds, and dismisses it. He finally realizes that his need for a systematic metaphysical, epistemic, moral, political philosophy was right back where he began so many years ago: in the Holy Bible. He begins reading theology and Christian philosophy, and chortles at the naivete of the arguments that were so convincing in his early years. Thus closes the circle.

I came to grips with the failure of all religions thanks to courses at a Jesuit University. I put religion in a box called not true why bother with it and ignored it. This continued until religious fanatics starting killing "infidels" such as 9/11. This woke me up to the evils of religion. I began to counter and argue against all religions following 9/11. I see now ignoring religion is a mistake. It's like a diamondback rattlesnake, you should never take your eyes away from it least it bite you.

 

Presuppositionalist wrote:

A few comments:

I know that some people never leave Christianity in the first place. As I explained, that is because they have exceptional moral fiber, but they might also be exceptionally intelligent. I also know that some people never leave nihilism, Buddhism, or whatever other worldview they latch onto. This is because they either (a) lack moral fiber or (b) their minds never fully develop.

I await your intelligent criticisms.

Moral fiber as you define it may be immoral to others. You of course are immoral to most Muslims. Perhaps intelligence is not involved as I know many intelligent people that are not Christian as well as many that are.

 

In perusing the subject of stages of belief I found these links. None resemble that which you posted.

 Belief Stages and Growth

 Stages of Belief

Contradictory Influences of Religion in the Early Stages of Life

The Development of Religious Beliefs and Commitment in Adolescence

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Paul, you managed to say

Paul, you managed to say precisely one thing of interest to me and this is it:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Moral fiber as you define it may be immoral to others. You of course are immoral to most Muslims. Perhaps intelligence is not involved as I know many intelligent people that are not Christian as well as many that are.

 

I will say two things in response:

1. Morality is not relative. There is no such thing as "moral for you" or "moral for the Muslims". There is only Moral For God, for God has defined the moral, and it is only for God that we can be moral. Whatever flights of imagination you ran across in your Intro to Philosophy class are degenerate or ad hoc. They have nothing to say about the moral.

2. Intelligence is heavily involved in the decision to become a Christian. Only the best of men can become Christians, and only the best of them can stay Christians. This means: the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian. The Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass. We are God's Chosen. Don't forget it.

Oh waah, Google didn't turn up that exact article within the first four entries.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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You are completely full of

You are completely full of shit. Religiousity has been shown to be inversely proportional to intelligence. Asshat.

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MattShizzle wrote:You are

MattShizzle wrote:

You are completely full of shit. Religiousity has been shown to be inversely proportional to intelligence. Asshat.

Michael Shermer collected those statistics and he is a known atheist with something to gain from people looking down on Christianity (he sells antireligious books, runs an antireligious organization, etc). You do the math here buddy.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

You are completely full of shit. Religiousity has been shown to be inversely proportional to intelligence. Asshat.

Michael Shermer collected those statistics and he is a known atheist with something to gain from people looking down on Christianity (he sells antireligious books, runs an antireligious organization, etc). You do the math here buddy.

As opposed to the statistics that you've yet to produce?

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:
There is only Moral For God, for God has defined the moral, and it is only for God that we can be moral.

We're speaking, of course, of the Catholic God, then?

Presuppositionalist wrote:
Intelligence is heavily involved in the decision to become a Christian.

Intelligence is also heavily involved in rationalization.

Presuppositionalist wrote:
Only the best of men can become Christians, and only the best of them can stay Christians. This means: the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian.

Wow. That's amazing. You actually believe that you're morally and intellectually superior to me. It's entirely possible - there aren't contests for those kinds of things. It's just that ... well, it sounds a bit like arbitrary elitism. Honestly, I've met stupid atheists, and I've met smart Christians. But I've also met stupid Christians and smart atheists. It's possible that you haven't met enough of either to figure out that categorizing people like that rarely works in practice.

Presuppositionalist wrote:
The Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass. We are God's Chosen. Don't forget it.

Sorry, whose version of Christianity are the chosen? Baptists? Catholics? Eastern Orthodox, perhaps? Many fools have passed this shibboleth. You merely have to have an accent that matches the group. 

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Presuppositionalist   

Presuppositionalist

   Please read the bible and recently found "gnostic scroll" writings  .... "story" jesus is the atheist/pantheist, and your way thinking was / is the "enemy" ..... Bible Paul was  talented and fucking crazy ..... I like what he wrote on "what is love", but his Jesus was shit crap .... when you add it all up ....

   Read RRS Rook 

 


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Paul, you managed to say precisely one thing of interest to me and this is it:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Moral fiber as you define it may be immoral to others. You of course are immoral to most Muslims. Perhaps intelligence is not involved as I know many intelligent people that are not Christian as well as many that are.

 

I will say two things in response:

1. Morality is not relative. There is no such thing as "moral for you" or "moral for the Muslims". There is only Moral For God, for God has defined the moral, and it is only for God that we can be moral. Whatever flights of imagination you ran across in your Intro to Philosophy class are degenerate or ad hoc. They have nothing to say about the moral.

2. Intelligence is heavily involved in the decision to become a Christian. Only the best of men can become Christians, and only the best of them can stay Christians. This means: the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian. The Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass. We are God's Chosen. Don't forget it.

I beg to differ.

You have picked a god to worship you call the True God. Your think you are following the morality set forth in your interpretation of his alleged word, commomly called the Bible. However, there are dozens of translations and so many interpretations it is a crap shoot as to what you picked.

The Jews consider your worship of 3 gods in one to be false worship. You derive your morals from their book with additional delusions and fantasy. The Muslims consider you to be an almost believer, as you are confused about Jesus and Al-lah, such that they consider you to be of little faith. Muslims for centuries were far more advanced than Christian society so don't give me the BS how Christians are so intelligent.

Once I consided being a minister and went to a Lutheran high school after 8 years of parochial school. I changed my mind. I also went to 2 years of grad school at a Jesuit University and I have studied far more than Intro to Philosophy has to offer on religion and theology. I don't know your history or education but so far all I've seen is claims and no more.

If you want to play then lets:

1-Prove morality is not relative to the belief system of an individual.

2-Prove intelligence is involved in the decision to be a Christian. First hand experience is not proof.

3-Prove only the best of men can become Christians. I guess women aren't included unless you like to say the best of mankind from here on.

4-Prove only the  best of them can stay Christians.

5-Prove the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian.

6-Prove there is an eternity why you're at it.

7-Prove a Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass.

8-Prove Christians are God's Chosen as opposed to the Jews and the Muslims for now.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Oh waah, Google didn't turn up that exact article within the first four entries.

No, so that means you need to find it yourself to back up your OP huh.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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HisWillness

HisWillness wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:
There is only Moral For God, for God has defined the moral, and it is only for God that we can be moral.

We're speaking, of course, of the Catholic God, then?

There is no "Catholic God", friend. There is only THE God. I will not let your solipsisms by, you crafty little person.

Quote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:
Intelligence is heavily involved in the decision to become a Christian.

Intelligence is also heavily involved in rationalization.

In other words: If we're dumb, it's bad. If we're smart, it's bad.

You didn't see that coming? Really?

Quote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:
Only the best of men can become Christians, and only the best of them can stay Christians. This means: the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian.

Wow. That's amazing. You actually believe that you're morally and intellectually superior to me. It's entirely possible - there aren't contests for those kinds of things. It's just that ... well, it sounds a bit like arbitrary elitism. Honestly, I've met stupid atheists, and I've met smart Christians. But I've also met stupid Christians and smart atheists. It's possible that you haven't met enough of either to figure out that categorizing people like that rarely works in practice.

It is not elitism, it is a statement of fact. Men are stronger than women on average. Is the scientist who reports it a sexist?

Quote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:
The Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass. We are God's Chosen. Don't forget it.

Sorry, whose version of Christianity are the chosen? Baptists? Catholics? Eastern Orthodox, perhaps? Many fools have passed this shibboleth. You merely have to have an accent that matches the group. 

There are no "versions of Christianity", relativist. Your little word games do you no good. There is the Bible, and there is everything else. There is that which is Christian, and there is that which is not. This is the law of non-contradiction- or have you forgotten it, in your descent from reason? You may stand on no middle ground and no waffling theology. BELIEVE OR DON'T!

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:You

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

You have picked a god to worship you call the True God. Your think you are following the morality set forth in your interpretation of his alleged word, commomly called the Bible. However, there are dozens of translations and so many interpretations it is a crap shoot as to what you picked.

To quote a cliche: "O ye of little faith". My version is the correct version, my interpretation the correct interpretation. I know this by reason and revelation (mark this: it is only the combination of the two that could qualify anything as knowledge).

Quote:
The Jews consider your worship of 3 gods in one to be false worship. You derive your morals from their book with additional delusions and fantasy. The Muslims consider you to be an almost believer, as you are confused about Jesus and Al-lah, such that they consider you to be of little faith. Muslims for centuries were far more advanced than Christian society so don't give me the BS how Christians are so intelligent.

I'm not sure why you added this. Do you suffer from the illusion that I care what they think?

Quote:
If you want to play then lets:

Woo! Vorry dramatic!

Quote:
1-Prove morality is not relative to the belief system of an individual.

If you held to reason, I should only have to say: Because it is morality.

It is one, not many... or have you forgotten that a thing is a thing, and a thing cannot be both itself and many at the same time? It is an irreducible system, a fact of nature, discoverable by all in the Lord's Holy Bible, but something that WILL only be unravelled by the exceptional man, the one with the fortitude to wade through the sea of time, language, culture, and history that surround this truth. Here is the essence of morality: the struggle, and the victory.

Quote:
2-Prove intelligence is involved in the decision to be a Christian. First hand experience is not proof.

Then I won't even attempt it. The senses are the means by which we converse with reality. A man that is not persuaded by first hand experience has left his mind to the dogs.

Quote:
3-Prove only the best of men can become Christians. I guess women aren't included unless you like to say the best of mankind from here on.

It requires tremendous intellectual and moral effort to really understand the Bible. My proof is everywhere in this post and the last.

Quote:
4-Prove only the  best of them can stay Christians.

There is a third quality besides intellectual and moral stamina, one that does not enter the equation until one is already a believer. Satan himself enters the mind of the believer, and they wrestle until one surrenders. Satan maintains his grip literally until the moment of death, when he is overwhelmed by God and the hosts of heaven. If the man held to his faith until the last, he has the third quality: Spiritual Stamina.

Quote:
5-Prove the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian.

The non-Christian does not understand the Bible.

Quote:
6-Prove there is an eternity why you're at it.

No, the burden is upon you. Here is why. While it is self-evident that the body (and the whisps we call inanimate objects) come and go, the mind, in our experience, does not. While evidence abounds that the body passes away, there is no evidence that the mind passes away. Anyone who denies the existence of an afterlife must posit a specific event (the end of the mind) for which there is no proof. Your enemy here is a theologian named William of Occam, who dismissed anyone that would posit an unprovable. This is my challenge to you, atheist: prove that the mind ever ceases to exist.

Quote:
7-Prove a Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass.

The Bible? Thought that one was pretty obvious...

Quote:
8-Prove Christians are God's Chosen as opposed to the Jews and the Muslims for now.

We know that a religion is God's chosen religion based upon its success rate relative to other modern religions. QED.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

No, the burden is upon you. Here is why. While it is self-evident that the body (and the whisps we call inanimate objects) come and go, the mind, in our experience, does not. While evidence abounds that the body passes away, there is no evidence that the mind passes away. Anyone who denies the existence of an afterlife must posit a specific event (the end of the mind) for which there is no proof. Your enemy here is a theologian named William of Occam, who dismissed anyone that would posit an unprovable. This is my challenge to you, atheist: prove that the mind ever ceases to exist.

But this relies on another unproven assertion: Demonstrate that your mind is anything more than the cascading electrochemical reactions in your brain over time. When you have shown a non-biological mind to exist, then we can address whether it ends.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
8-Prove Christians are God's Chosen as opposed to the Jews and the Muslims for now.

We know that a religion is God's chosen religion based upon its success rate relative to other modern religions. QED.

Bad news: Islam is growing faster than Christianity.

Here's a source (with their own sourcing!): http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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YICKS .... I think Jerry Falwell may have been reincarnated  


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BMcD

BMcD wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

No, the burden is upon you. Here is why. While it is self-evident that the body (and the whisps we call inanimate objects) come and go, the mind, in our experience, does not. While evidence abounds that the body passes away, there is no evidence that the mind passes away. Anyone who denies the existence of an afterlife must posit a specific event (the end of the mind) for which there is no proof. Your enemy here is a theologian named William of Occam, who dismissed anyone that would posit an unprovable. This is my challenge to you, atheist: prove that the mind ever ceases to exist.

But this relies on another unproven assertion: Demonstrate that your mind is anything more than the cascading electrochemical reactions in your brain over time. When you have shown a non-biological mind to exist, then we can address whether it ends.

But that relies on yet another unproven assumption. You cannot provide any mechanism by which these "reactions" may become conscious. Ergo, we postulate a different sort of substance: the soul. This is the line of reasoning followed by the great John Locke.

Quote:
Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
8-Prove Christians are God's Chosen as opposed to the Jews and the Muslims for now.

We know that a religion is God's chosen religion based upon its success rate relative to other modern religions. QED.

Bad news: Islam is growing faster than Christianity.

Here's a source (with their own sourcing!): http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

But Christianity is bigger than Islam. We have MORE. I don't care what's growing faster, that stuff fluctuates daily. Numbers, baby, numbers! Position, not velocity! There's your success rate, and we win that one hands down.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist wrote:As

Presuppositionalist wrote:

As most people age, they go through several belief systems. In the modern United States, this is statistically the most common progression:

STAGE ONE: Birth to Adolescence, appx <16 yrs.

Child is born to religious parents. He absorbs various doctrines through church, family, and friends, never (or very rarely) questioning them. He may have one or more highly emotional religious experiences.

STAGE TWO: Adolescence to Early Adulthood, appx 16-20 yrs.

The individual begins to question his religion. As his intellect is not yet fully developed, he has the ability to ask difficult questions, but not necessarily to answer them. Although exceptionally virtuous individuals remain religious even over this time period, many do not. Their minds fail, and they degenerate philosophically. (Degeneration is accelerated if friends or relatives are unbelievers or at least not overtly religious.) They usually become nihilists if they happen to read Neitzsche. Those with slightly greater moral fiber, who recognise at least that there is some sort of objective moral law, may become philosophical Buddhists for the strict moral code. Others, perhaps of a scientific persuasion, become pantheists to impress their friends with their superficially "deep" philosophical insight. But all are degenerate philosophies, patchwork guesses tacked over a need for real philosophy, and their adherents cannot stay adherents for very long.

STAGE THREE: Early Adulthood to Maturity, appx 20-30 yrs.

The mind completes its development in the early twenties. As a result, the individual begins to realise that nihilism (or Buddhism, or pantheism) is an inconsistent and unlivable worldview. He knows that he needs a worldview with structure, something that will give him political and epistemic philosophies. However, he is still hesitant to accept religion, having built up a resistance to it in his early years. At this stage, he embraces some sort of pseudo-systematic philosophy, perhaps Objectivism or some variant on Marxism. But the worldview is an ad hockery, a construct intended to cushion his aversion to the sacred, and deep down he knows this. Thus, after a few years, the fouth stage.

STAGE FOUR: Maturity, appx >30 yrs.

In time, the mature individual finally comes to grips with the failure of all his arguments against religion. Consequently, he also acknowledges the silliness of the ad hoc worldview to which he holds, and dismisses it. He finally realizes that his need for a systematic metaphysical, epistemic, moral, political philosophy was right back where he began so many years ago: in the Holy Bible. He begins reading theology and Christian philosophy, and chortles at the naivete of the arguments that were so convincing in his early years. Thus closes the circle.

 

A few comments:

I know that some people never leave Christianity in the first place. As I explained, that is because they have exceptional moral fiber, but they might also be exceptionally intelligent. I also know that some people never leave nihilism, Buddhism, or whatever other worldview they latch onto. This is because they either (a) lack moral fiber or (b) their minds never fully develop.

I await your intelligent criticisms.

 

 

Stage one: Naive and stupid (<12 years)

Believe in everything that bible says

Stage two: Questioning (12-14 years)

Starting to question the bible

Stage three: Critical thinking (14-16 years)

Beginning to look at bible really careful.

Stage four: Atheism (16-the end)

Bible is wrong and so are the other "holy books"

 

 

You shouldn't say that atheism is just a stupid phase of the teenagers, because it's not true.


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Fanas wrote:You shouldn't

Fanas wrote:

You shouldn't say that atheism is just a stupid phase of the teenagers, because it's not true.

In fairness, I said it was a phase typical to appx 16-30 year olds which is abandoned around the time the brain completes its development, since the intellectual and moral faculties reach their peak at that time. So while I would agree that it isn't a "phase of the teenagers", I would call it an indicator of intellectual/moral development. I would also say that the specific worldview to which the atheist holds is a further indicator of such development. For example, an Objectivist is more intellectually/morally developed than a Buddhist or nihilist since he at least recognizes that he must have a full philosophy to live.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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The Devil is so crafty, but

The Devil is so crafty, but I am not swayed, as I am god, as I am atheist, as all is one.

      You idol worshipers suck, to hell with you devils ....  BURN  

Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil   ---- (((( KILL RELIGION DEVIL WORSHIP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt9nmxieKnk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CNZ7iod9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJRkdYreV1w&feature=related

             Ministry - Jesus built my hotrod     
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RBKTo5K14M

   Hey Xains, because I care, Fuck you, and your Jesus .... my Jesus is Atheist ....

 It is of little wonder who and what the enemy is.  We are surrounded by idiocy.

 

 

 

 

 

     


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

But that relies on yet another unproven assumption. You cannot provide any mechanism by which these "reactions" may become conscious. Ergo, we postulate a different sort of substance: the soul. This is the line of reasoning followed by the great John Locke.

Except that I'm not the one adding anything to the data set. If I were providing a mechanism by which the chemical reactions aggregate into awareness, I would be expected to support that assertion. I'm not. I'm leaving that at 'I don't know'. You, on the other hand, are adding something to the data set. 'Ergo, we postulate a different sort of substance: the soul.' You are then assuming the burden of proving the existence of this substance before we can add it to the data set.

Your assertion, your burden of proof.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

But Christianity is bigger than Islam. We have MORE. I don't care what's growing faster, that stuff fluctuates daily. Numbers, baby, numbers! Position, not velocity! There's your success rate, and we win that one hands down.

Well, if it fluctuates daily, then you must not have slept for over twenty years. If you'll read the page in a little more depth, you'll note that those rates of growth have remained constant for over a generation.

Also, your religion places a requirement on the believer to preach, to seek conversions, to try to bring others into the body of Christ. Thus, it would seem that your success rate, the rate of growth of the Faith, would be the true measure of success. And that, really, is where the great schisms are hurting you: Most efforts made by Christians to convert others are simply efforts to convince someone to change denominations; Lutheran to Catholic, Anglican to Jehovah's Witness, etc. There is no cohesion, and so, stagnation. That you do not care that your faith is losing ground to Islam is probably a good indicator of why it is: for all your bluster, you really don't care about helping others find their way, only about having someone else say 'you're right', and give you the validation and reassurance that you are so desperately, obviously, seeking.

Ironic, really... I'd have expected you'd get that from your God.

 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

You have picked a god to worship you call the True God. Your think you are following the morality set forth in your interpretation of his alleged word, commonly called the Bible. However, there are dozens of translations and so many interpretations it is a crap shoot as to what you picked.

To quote a cliche: "O ye of little faith". My version is the correct version, my interpretation the correct interpretation. I know this by reason and revelation (mark this: it is only the combination of the two that could qualify anything as knowledge).

Is it now? So you have a direct connection to God as he reveals his intentions to you? You sound like all the rest of the false teachers Paul and Jesus warned about. Are you the anti-Christ? How do you know you aren't talking to Satan and he is leading you down a path to hellfire. Jesus taught love, understanding and peace according to the Gospels.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
The Jews consider your worship of 3 gods in one to be false worship. You derive your morals from their book with additional delusions and fantasy. The Muslims consider you to be an almost believer, as you are confused about Jesus and Al-lah, such that they consider you to be of little faith. Muslims for centuries were far more advanced than Christian society so don't give me the BS how Christians are so intelligent.

I'm not sure why you added this. Do you suffer from the illusion that I care what they think?

I can see you don't care what others think.

However, the point is other religious beliefs claim to be the only true way to eternal life and they too have made claims only their way is correct and all others are inspired by Satan and delusion. You have provided only assertions to support your way is the path and no other. You may suffer from a mental condition that causes you to incorrectly conclude you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's called APD, or antisocial personality disorder. If only you have the correct version and no other isn't that a bit suspicious? Since you have not put into words why your version is the correct version and interpretation, meaning your evidence for such claim there is only your word to prove it. Your word holds no value to support this claim

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
1-Prove morality is not relative to the belief system of an individual.

If you held to reason, I should only have to say: Because it is morality.

It is one, not many... or have you forgotten that a thing is a thing, and a thing cannot be both itself and many at the same time? It is an irreducible system, a fact of nature, discoverable by all in the Lord's Holy Bible, but something that WILL only be unravelled by the exceptional man, the one with the fortitude to wade through the sea of time, language, culture, and history that surround this truth. Here is the essence of morality: the struggle, and the victory.

Islam - Worshiping is required, Salat (prayer) is required, Zakat (the levy), fasting, Hajj (pilgrimage), and of course Awraah (the rules regarding exposure of body parts). There are also dietary rules. These and much more are part of Islamic morals.

Jewish - Too many to list but include 600+ rules and commandments, preserving life theirs and others, dietary, relations with non-Jews, charity, use of God's name, and animals.

Catholic (Roman) - defined by the Church. Birth control is immoral for example.

Christian - varies - 7th Day Adventists hold eating of pork is immoral, others don't. Many rules see each denomination.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
2-Prove intelligence is involved in the decision to be a Christian. First hand experience is not proof.

Then I won't even attempt it. The senses are the means by which we converse with reality. A man that is not persuaded by first hand experience has left his mind to the dogs.

The senses should lead you to the evidence no more. The evidence can't be your word as you could be a false teacher or an anti-Christ.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
3-Prove only the best of men can become Christians. I guess women aren't included unless you like to say the best of mankind from here on.

It requires tremendous intellectual and moral effort to really understand the Bible. My proof is everywhere in this post and the last.

The only proof in this post is assertion by you that only you know the correct interpretation of the Bible thus you have the only correct belief. This does not prove your claim only "the best men" can become Christian.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
4-Prove only the  best of them can stay Christians.

There is a third quality besides intellectual and moral stamina, one that does not enter the equation until one is already a believer. Satan himself enters the mind of the believer, and they wrestle until one surrenders. Satan maintains his grip literally until the moment of death, when he is overwhelmed by God and the hosts of heaven. If the man held to his faith until the last, he has the third quality: Spiritual Stamina.

You now have introduced another assertion, Satan. Prove Satan exists and he does as you claim. You still need to prove your previous claim "only the best of them can stay Christian".

Presuppositionalist wrote:
Quote:

5-Prove the Christian is more intelligent, more moral, more fit to enter eternity than the non-Christian.

The non-Christian does not understand the Bible.

This is only your opinion. My opinion is you don't understand the Hebrew Bible and have misconstrued everything the Jews believe and have presented a false interpretation. This does not prove Christians are more intelligent or moral.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
6-Prove there is an eternity why you're at it.

No, the burden is upon you. Here is why. While it is self-evident that the body (and the whisps we call inanimate objects) come and go, the mind, in our experience, does not. While evidence abounds that the body passes away, there is no evidence that the mind passes away. Anyone who denies the existence of an afterlife must posit a specific event (the end of the mind) for which there is no proof. Your enemy here is a theologian named William of Occam, who dismissed anyone that would posit an unprovable. This is my challenge to you, atheist: prove that the mind ever ceases to exist.

No, the burden is on you, you made the claim there is an eternity. Brains die, mental activity ceases, end of story. If you assert there is an afterlife where the mind continues you must prove this claim. The simpliest explanation is likely the one. No brain activity, no scientific proof of existence following electrical impulses ceasing.

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
7-Prove a Christian must master a book full to the brim with doctrine, a shibboleth that no fool could pass.

The Bible? Thought that one was pretty obvious...

Which version? KJV. Douray-Rheims, Hebrew? or which of these: see here:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Quote:
8-Prove Christians are God's Chosen as opposed to the Jews and the Muslims for now.

We know that a religion is God's chosen religion based upon its success rate relative to other modern religions. QED.

Numbers mean nada. This just indicates there are a large number following an idea, it isn't proof. Nearly everyone once thought the Earth was flat, that didn't make that true.

Plus - Those that aren't Christians in your view or version should be subtracted as they follow false beliefs and are not true Christians.

 

 

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Fanas wrote:

You shouldn't say that atheism is just a stupid phase of the teenagers, because it's not true.

In fairness, I said it was a phase typical to appx 16-30 year olds which is abandoned around the time the brain completes its development, since the intellectual and moral faculties reach their peak at that time. So while I would agree that it isn't a "phase of the teenagers", I would call it an indicator of intellectual/moral development. I would also say that the specific worldview to which the atheist holds is a further indicator of such development. For example, an Objectivist is more intellectually/morally developed than a Buddhist or nihilist since he at least recognizes that he must have a full philosophy to live.

You just said that either there are no atheists over 30 years, or they are mentally retarded. Thats really insulting you know.

 

And what you got against buddhists? You keep talking about them so much.


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Actually he said it about

Actually he said it about Buddhists (and implied it about any non-Christians) too. So I guess Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg and Bill Gates are retarded, as were Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein. Meanwhile some moron who can't tell an obvious parody from serious apologetics and has no understanding of logic is very intelligent. Good joke.

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Quote:Christian - varies -

Quote:
Christian - varies - 7th Day Adventists hold eating of pork is immoral, others don't. Many rules see each denomination.

Sweet.  My denomination gets mentioned.

"Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)"

-Taken from the 28 "Fundamental" Beliefs.

In any case..

Quote:
Morality is not relative.

Even if morality is not relative, that does not mean any one has a perfect understanding of it.  Anytime someone says "this is moral, this is not moral," what I think they should saying is, assuming they believe in an absolute morality, "this is what I understand to be moral, this is what I understand not to be moral, based upon interpretation of X, understanding of Y, moral theory B, or experience Z."


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Quote:
Christian - varies - 7th Day Adventists hold eating of pork is immoral, others don't. Many rules see each denomination.

Sweet.  My denomination gets mentioned.

"Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)"

-Taken from the 28 "Fundamental" Beliefs.

In any case..

Quote:
Morality is not relative.

Even if morality is not relative, that does not mean any one has a perfect understanding of it.  Anytime someone says "this is moral, this is not moral," what I think they should saying is, assuming they believe in an absolute morality, "this is what I understand to be moral, this is what I understand not to be moral, based upon interpretation of X, understanding of Y, moral theory B, or experience Z."

Keeping what you said above in mind according to your belief is smoking, drinking alcohol, or eating pork immoral?

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Quote:Keeping what you said

Quote:
Keeping what you said above in mind according to your belief is smoking, drinking alcohol, or eating pork immoral?

"Based upon my belief concerning morality, immorality is more a matter of how one views the action they are doing or what underlying motivation they have for doing the action.  Those things you listed are not immoral per se.  In a sense, immorality can only be determined, in large part, on a case by case basis and only from the perspective of the individual acting. 

For me, all things being equal, smoking, drinking alcohol, or eating pork, would be immoral, or at least (just in case the word "immoral" has too much baggage) shouldn't be done, because (on the most basic level) I consider them medically harmful to myself and I have no reason to eat or drink any of it (although, perhaps other people do have reason, like, "not offending the company&quotEye-wink.  Yet, don't get me wrong, nowadays it would appear that pork is no more harmful to the body than beef.  So, applying the same reasoning, I probably shouldn't be eating beef either.

So, immoral for me.  Maybe not for you.

Try to keep in mind that I don't think something is immoral just because the bible seems to say so. The text is, in many ways, extremely open to interpretation, and so, even if it was meant to "create morality," it might be difficult to ascertain such "codes."  Immoral is immoral because it's bad for you, bad for others.  At least that's the way I view it."

Heh.. that paragraph was a little hard to write because the word "immoral" has so many connotations for me as well as any other people--and I know I might be hammared because of it.


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The problem with that is

The problem with that is that the Inquisition and Holocaust would be considered moral actions - after all those participating in them thought what they were doing was right. So would the actions of the 9/11 terrorists.

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Quote:The problem with that

Quote:
The problem with that is that the Inquisition and Holocaust would be considered moral actions - after all those participating in them thought what they were doing was right. So would the actions of the 9/11 terrorists.

Considered by who? If you mean "considered by the ones doing the actions," then perhaps you are right--afterall, I don't know their minds.  If you mean "considered by everyone who accepts this idea (if you're speaking of mine)," not at all.

What I suggests is that this:

Personal morality may or may not reflect what is actually "moral" (in some "objective" or "absolute" sense).  But, since one doesn't know whether or not his personal morality does, in actuality, reflect what is actually "moral," that person should be careful to judge someone else.

In other words, it suggests that everyone could be wrong, not that everyone is per se right.

That being said, such things as the holocaust, or 9/11, I would try to stop them not because I view their actions as immoral per se, but rather because my own moral code would prompt me to protect those they wished to kill.