The Failure of Atheism
Offline Greetings. I'm rather new here, and though I've tried to scan the forums for rules and old discussions that might be relevant, it's entirely possible I missed something. I'd like to apologize in advance if I have.
Despite the title, I am not a theist. I am an atheist, and consider myself somewhat strident. I'm glad to see the waves the atheist community in America have generated over the last few years, despite the sinking ship that is scientific education, politics, and just plain respect for reason in this country. That said, I've found myself disappointed in the atheist movement of late. I've seen and heard many well-constructed and well-thought-out arguments, especially from the RRS and other high-profile atheists. These arguments are wonderful and, as far as I'm concerned, utterly convincing (many of these arguments convinced me, after all).
Yet it seems to me that the theists have set up a big, fat dummy with their end of the logical arguments, and remain quite content to let the militant atheists swing away at it to little avail. I've seen very little evidence that argumentation actually affects very many theists, if only because they do not cling to religion for logical reasons.
Of course, it could simply be that I've only been privileged to watch the seeds of disbelief planted without ever being around to see them bear fruit. I think, though, that those of us who would like to see real progress made in our own lifetimes may want to consider using less purely logical routes.
If theism has taken root in the emotions of otherwise intelligent and capable people, that is where it should be attacked. We need to show the theists that atheism does not strip human life of meaning, that morality is not the sole province of religion (an aside - if atheists are right, then morality is purely a human invention anyway, and removing God from the equation just makes it more honest). We need more Carl Sagans, to inspire people with the wonder of the real universe. It's not enough to merely dismiss claims that atheists are amoral, unhappy, or nihilistic as the ridiculous claims they are.
Again, I apologize. It's late, and I didn't mean to ramble quite so much.
Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.
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Welcome to the forums, Kavis
Welcome!
Well I'm not entirely sure what your actual question is. I think I get you-I don't try just refute theists arguments.I do my best to live a life that is can't be reconciled with their preconceived notions of atheists. To put it simply, I try be better than christians.Not to be petty, but I think it's a good way to show them religion is NOT the only way to have a good and happy life.
My teacher used to say 'Your life is the only bible some people might ever read' Well, maybe ours is the only Sagan and Dawkins some people will ever read. And it would be a shame for people to never feel the need to learn about atheism based on experience with a single person.
I'm rambling now,maybe you'll come back and clarify?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Greetings and welcome Kavis. I agree, of course, the world needs more Carl Sagan-like individuals to deconstruct science, reason, and atheism in to easy to follow persuasive stylings. I agree sometimes its easier to point at something, pick apart its flaws, and then not address why it has been so powerful, or appealing. This imo is part of the 1,000 fronts at once idea. It also speaks to something that is a bit more problematic which is the framing of Atheism and secularism to the general public. There are so many conflicting voices and ideas on this, the diversity seems to be more of a fragmentation at times than a beneficial melting pot.
As for your attempt to say atheists subscribe to moral relativism, I would object. As for being a human "invention" I think that is partially correct, if by invention you mean, morality is a natural process highly evolved in hominids(although also in many other species), and culturally tweaked in the current incarnation of Homo Sapiens sapiens. THis podcast illustrates my point here.
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/marc_hauser_moral_minds/
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
That's where it's being attacked, as far as I can see.
Working hard at that.
I think Ghandi can answer this one: "be the change you want to see in the world."
PS - if you think you've lost before the game is over, it's harder to win.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
It's always nice to read up on fellow atheists. A proviso though since you mentioned radical atheists; this is the Rational Response Squad not as some would like The Radical Atheist Squad. I have to remind myself of this at times. Radicals do have their energetic place in our movement but not directing this site.
Another proviso is a slight mistake we all make at times, you write as if atheisim is an opposing theology to religion. It is not. Religious people have a theology- a theory above and beyond the real world. A-theist have no theology we seek our answers in science and our questions are based on scientific inquiry.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I do not share such a pessimistic view of atheist. It is true that we are a minority. It is also true that we have an uphill battle, that we might not even win.
BUT, when one considers the history of skepticism and the history of science, it cannot be ignored. And knowing myself where the atheist voice was just 7 short years ago, and where it is today, it is NOT a difference that would say to me, "we are failing".
We have had Infidel Guy take up an entire hour on prime time TV. RRS had a major newscast in Nightline do a story on them. Authors like Harris and Hitchens and Dawkins are constantly on the media raidar. And most polls are showing at a minimum, that younger people ARE NOT buying the religion of their parents, but at least looking for different religions that are not as exclusive or bigoted.
We are not going to have a utopia nor should we try for such an absurd goal that cant exist, there is no such thing. But to say that atheists are failing is far from true considering where we were and where we are now.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Belief despite understanding the logic, and three steps to freedom
Go Science!
Does Science Take Away Wonder and Awe?
What Does Sugar Have To Do With Murder?!
For New Atheists: Is This Really All There Is?
All articles written by me addressing the emotional issues underlying the cultural and individual attachment to theism.
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Books about atheism
I think what you want to know is if we should stop using logic as much because let's face it, people can be too damn irrational for words.
You want to know if we should fight propaganda with propaganda? If that is indeed the question, then the answer depends. For faster results, yes. But I personally don't want to "sink to their level". I'd rather it be a longer struggle that improves humanity as a whole than get people to believe the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's frustrating and yes, we'll probably be dead before the goal is achieved. We need to keep fighting for it anyway.
"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan
But I think I know what you mean.
The is a high correlation between IQ and atheism. Atheists tend to approach theists in the full IQ mode, giving intellectual responses rather than gut responses. The side in favor of religion starts with emotional appeals laced with logical fallacies and the assumption it is a proven fact rather than an arbitrary conjecture. If you wish to argue with these people keep in mind it will always be an argument never a debate. They are rarely capable of it and know it will get them no where.
Watch Leap of Faith or tune into the god channel and pay attention to the techniques. Even if you are dealing with the Pope himself his methods will never be other than a sophisticated version of a tent preacher.
Note the most effective technique is to disorient the mark, to make him question himself, bring up everything he has ever done that he regrets, lay it on thick and then offer salvation. This is also the technique referred to as brain washing. This method takes talent and a lot of practice and you never take it on head on.
I find it most effective to deal with every logical fallacy as it comes up. I have even pissed off pseudo-atheists trying to salvage Jews as an ancient people even while rejecting the Septuagint in toto. I have gotten them spluttering.
Assuming a fact not in evidence is fundamental to where they all start. So demand the physical evidence for everything. And "experts tell us" is an appeal to authority, a fallacy, never accept it. Always get to the physical evidence. They rarely have any. If they do know of something it will be a single passage and they will try to bring in god, the bible, apply pie and the flag under a single passage. A single passage means no more than the single passage.
You get the idea. This is simply a discussion technique that you have likely seen in court. It is the legal process but there is no judge to take notice of anything. You are likely smarter than the opposition so use it. Not by making it a philosophical lecture but by not permitting a single logical fallacy or fact not in evidence to enter the discussion.
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