Christian Martyrs: Cassie Bernall & Rachel Scott (Christians, Interested in Your Opinions)

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Christian Martyrs: Cassie Bernall & Rachel Scott (Christians, Interested in Your Opinions)

I know the story's a tad old, but - despite the mighty distance between where I live and where it occurred - the Columbine Massacre still manages to get itself atop the topic pile in my neck of the woods here or there.

A question (and we'll leave actual facts, like a certain misattributed quote, out of this one for the time being): Both Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott, beautiful young women about to graduate and move on to whatever grander exploits, were shot dead during the murderous rampage at Columbine and are, to this day, refereced to by a large number of Christians as martyrs to the Christian faith. Both Scott and Bernall were (falsely) alleged to have been asked to effectively choose between saying "Yes" as to whether or not she believed in God or being shot at point-blank range, and chose the former option.

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

 

EDIT: Your posts, unaccredited, may be pasted into my blog on this website. Just FYI.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Heroes and Fools

As a writer of fiction, I try to never let facts get in the way of a good story and for the right audience, these circumstances combine to make a good, if shallow story.  Another's motivations, on the other hand, are my bread and butter.  Circumstances define the plot.  A character's motivations define the actions of a hero or a fool.

If I were going to write a martyr story the motivations of both the victim and the perpetrator would consume the majority of my before-I-sit-down-to-actually-write-time.  Do I want to write a heroic tale or a tragedy?  Which character is the hero?  The torch-bearer is as much the hero of their own life as the person tied to the stake is.  There could be a good story written from either perspective.

If I were going to write a narrative from the martyr's point of view I would have to find at least one moment in her prior life that defines how she faces the final one.  Does she believe her god will somehow save her from death - I'm referring to rescue not salvation?  Does she believe that because she's young and invulnerable or someone special with plans of her own that death can't touch her?  These are foolish reasons to die.

Or did each young woman (as the originator of this tale hopes you'll believe) decide that her faith was more important than living a life with faith denied?  I wouldn't write this.  It's trite.  Most uncomplicated heroic tales are trite.

But what if she thought she would die anyway and believed that expressing her faith was the best legacy she could hope to leave behind?  Without a bold statement she's just another dead kid.


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I know that if this had

I know that if this had happened to me at the height of my christianity, I'm positive I would have said yes. Yes,I was actually eager to die for god. It's not as heroic as it might seem though, it partly stemmed from fear that ever denying god would condemm me to hell. I would have rather risked getting shot.

 

On a side note, I hate it when christians ignore the fact that things like are false because it suits them. Selective hearing anyone? The christian band Flyleaf has a song about it called 'Cassie'. It pretty much glorifies them for being martyrs yet it never happened.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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Loc wrote:I know that if

Loc wrote:

I know that if this had happened to me at the height of my christianity, I'm positive I would have said yes. Yes,I was actually eager to die for god. It's not as heroic as it might seem though, it partly stemmed from fear that ever denying god would condemm me to hell. I would have rather risked getting shot.

 

On a side note, I hate it when christians ignore the fact that things like are false because it suits them. Selective hearing anyone? The christian band Flyleaf has a song about it called 'Cassie'. It pretty much glorifies them for being martyrs yet it never happened.

Even if it DID, happen the way Christians say, there are still  problems I have with those parameters.

Those two sickos shot and killed 12 other and wounded dozens others people and DID NOT ask everyone they shot if they believed in God (even if we were to assume those two unfortunate girls were asked), so the shooting was not about belief in Jesus, the students that got shot were merely targets of convenience. They shooters were merely showing off. They would have shot anyone they didn't like and the beliefs of the victims wouldn't have mattered.

Not to mention, by the believer's parameters, IF, as they say, God was watching, why allow it to happen if you know you can stop it?

If this all powerful being can stop one person from being a victim of criminal murder, why not be consistent and save all the students?

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Brian37 wrote:Loc wrote:I

Brian37 wrote:

Loc wrote:

I know that if this had happened to me at the height of my christianity, I'm positive I would have said yes. Yes,I was actually eager to die for god. It's not as heroic as it might seem though, it partly stemmed from fear that ever denying god would condemm me to hell. I would have rather risked getting shot.

 

On a side note, I hate it when christians ignore the fact that things like are false because it suits them. Selective hearing anyone? The christian band Flyleaf has a song about it called 'Cassie'. It pretty much glorifies them for being martyrs yet it never happened.

Even if it DID, happen the way Christians say, there are still  problems I have with those parameters.

Those two sickos shot and killed 12 other and wounded dozens others people and DID NOT ask everyone they shot if they believed in God (even if we were to assume those two unfortunate girls were asked), so the shooting was not about belief in Jesus, the students that got shot were merely targets of convenience. They shooters were merely showing off. They would have shot anyone they didn't like and the beliefs of the victims wouldn't have mattered.

Not to mention, by the believer's parameters, IF, as they say, God was watching, why allow it to happen if you know you can stop it?

If this all powerful being can stop one person from being a victim of criminal murder, why not be consistent and save all the students?

Brian: As I said, we're leaving facts out of this one for the time being. The scenario is simply following the noton (however inaccurate) that Bernall and Scott were shot because, "They said 'Yes'." I just want to know if the Christians visiting here (many of which claim to be moderates) see that as a noble and 'correct' response to a gunman who is effectively giving the ultimatum, "Renounce your faith right now or eat lead."

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:Brian: As I said,

Quote:

Brian: As I said, we're leaving facts out of this one for the time being. The scenario is simply following the noton (however inaccurate) that Bernall and Scott were shot because, "They said 'Yes'." I just want to know if the Christians visiting here (many of which claim to be moderates) see that as a noble and 'correct' response to a gunman who is effectively giving the ultimatum, "Renounce your faith right now or eat lead."

I understand that, and I was going with those parameters. I was saying the "Nobility" claim is invalid because the intent of the killers was not to "get even" with Christians. They killed people that were in their sights. They were selfish pricks simply trying to make a name for themselves by going out in a blaze of glory.

They were not fighting war, they were not enemy soldiers and the girls were not in a "battle" against them. They were victims of a horrible crime that had nothing to do with their Christianity.

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OccamsChainsaw wrote:As a

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

As a writer of fiction, I try to never let facts get in the way of a good story and for the right audience, these circumstances combine to make a good, if shallow story.  Another's motivations, on the other hand, are my bread and butter.  Circumstances define the plot.  A character's motivations define the actions of a hero or a fool.

If I were going to write a martyr story the motivations of both the victim and the perpetrator would consume the majority of my before-I-sit-down-to-actually-write-time.  Do I want to write a heroic tale or a tragedy?  Which character is the hero?  The torch-bearer is as much the hero of their own life as the person tied to the stake is.  There could be a good story written from either perspective.

If I were going to write a narrative from the martyr's point of view I would have to find at least one moment in her prior life that defines how she faces the final one.  Does she believe her god will somehow save her from death - I'm referring to rescue not salvation?  Does she believe that because she's young and invulnerable or someone special with plans of her own that death can't touch her?  These are foolish reasons to die.

Or did each young woman (as the originator of this tale hopes you'll believe) decide that her faith was more important than living a life with faith denied?  I wouldn't write this.  It's trite.  Most uncomplicated heroic tales are trite.

But what if she thought she would die anyway and believed that expressing her faith was the best legacy she could hope to leave behind?  Without a bold statement she's just another dead kid.

Excellent reply Occam's, and I've quoted you because my reply will echo what you have already said. Motivation is implied by words like :heroism or :nobility, you really can't know heroism without understanding motivation. At best these columbine girl's "martyrdom" is a projection of motivation vicariously by the christian following that claims it, a great deal of martyrdom actually boils down to this. 

 

IF this scenario had actually specifically happened, ie explicit choice = point blank bullet or renounce faith - and it did not as far as I can tell from the reports - then I'd hesitate to call it noble (there's still a possibility that it wasn't, understanding of the motivation is needed) but I wouldn't rule out a heroic intent to die as a martyr to ones faith in a possible universe where christian faith really represented a thing worth dying for.

However, (and I apologise Kevin, I know you've asked us not to put this in but I feel I should qualify my position a bit more) we really don't have that scenario here even in the least, the actual scene does not bear out any assumption of motivation behind the three girl's professions of faith.  Nobody in the real story was given an explicit choice to make between faith and death. By the majority of accounts the question was simply a question, no strings implied, thus the motivation to answer in one specific way could have come from anywhere and, of course, that's even before we note that the only wholly substantiated account of a person answering this question directly does not involve a point blank shooting at all.

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Eloise wrote:OccamsChainsaw

Eloise wrote:

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

As a writer of fiction, I try to never let facts get in the way of a good story and for the right audience, these circumstances combine to make a good, if shallow story.  Another's motivations, on the other hand, are my bread and butter.  Circumstances define the plot.  A character's motivations define the actions of a hero or a fool.

If I were going to write a martyr story the motivations of both the victim and the perpetrator would consume the majority of my before-I-sit-down-to-actually-write-time.  Do I want to write a heroic tale or a tragedy?  Which character is the hero?  The torch-bearer is as much the hero of their own life as the person tied to the stake is.  There could be a good story written from either perspective.

If I were going to write a narrative from the martyr's point of view I would have to find at least one moment in her prior life that defines how she faces the final one.  Does she believe her god will somehow save her from death - I'm referring to rescue not salvation?  Does she believe that because she's young and invulnerable or someone special with plans of her own that death can't touch her?  These are foolish reasons to die.

Or did each young woman (as the originator of this tale hopes you'll believe) decide that her faith was more important than living a life with faith denied?  I wouldn't write this.  It's trite.  Most uncomplicated heroic tales are trite.

But what if she thought she would die anyway and believed that expressing her faith was the best legacy she could hope to leave behind?  Without a bold statement she's just another dead kid.

Excellent reply Occam's, and I've quoted you because my reply will echo what you have already said. Motivation is implied by words like :heroism or :nobility, you really can't know heroism without understanding motivation. At best these columbine girl's "martyrdom" is a projection of motivation vicariously by the christian following that claims it, a great deal of martyrdom actually boils down to this. 

 

IF this scenario had actually specifically happened, ie explicit choice = point blank bullet or renounce faith - and it did not as far as I can tell from the reports - then I'd hesitate to call it noble (there's still a possibility that it wasn't, understanding of the motivation is needed) but I wouldn't rule out a heroic intent to die as a martyr to ones faith in a possible universe where christian faith really represented a thing worth dying for.

However, (and I apologise Kevin, I know you've asked us not to put this in but I feel I should qualify my position a bit more) we really don't have that scenario here even in the least, the actual scene does not bear out any assumption of motivation behind the three girl's professions of faith.  Nobody in the real story was given an explicit choice to make between faith and death. By the majority of accounts the question was simply a question, no strings implied, thus the motivation to answer in one specific way could have come from anywhere and, of course, that's even before we note that the only wholly substantiated account of a person answering this question directly does not involve a point blank shooting at all.

Dammit! Is it too much to ask that the sensible suspend their factiness for just this one single topic?

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Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin

   I can picture two scared teenager girl, or myself (male age 52) trying to think of a proper answer, the one that keeps me alive!!!!   You/ I  have 3 seconds to pick the right one;   Guess what the gun slinger wants to hear;  and get it right!!!     One chance only!!!!

    I can picture an angry, sexually frustrated teenage boy/s  with guns/power   looking down at  a  girl he has no chance with under normal circumstances, but now he has a gun,   the power, he could never dreem of before. To exercise his power  and his frustration;  he asks a question;;   Those   two girls  are dead  no matter what the answer is. That is the suicidal power of a gun.

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Yes, Dammit! It is.

So, what's the difference between the fanaticism that enables someone to say, "Yes, I believe in God.  Now shoot me." and another who says, "I believe in God and that's why I fly planes into buildings."?

The most common adjective used to describe the acts that precipitated the events of 911 was 'coward' and the most common adverb was 'cowardly'.  It's all we heard to describe their actions and I doubt those were the words used beyond the eastern end of the Mediterranean.  To quote William Goldman, "You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

My point, I suppose, is the unexamined equating of martyrdom with heroism.  Are they the same thing?  The human mind (like this post) is a convoluted mess that could arrive at the same conclusion by paths of bravery or fear or both.  There are better ways to express heroism than to stand there, watching a bullet slam into your face.

And on another note; having trouble, dad, with your pubescent memories of attraction to the glands of the other sex?


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OccamsChainsaw wrote:So,

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

So, what's the difference between the fanaticism that enables someone to say, "Yes, I believe in God.  Now shoot me." and another who says, "I believe in God and that's why I fly planes into buildings."?

There is an obvious difference, they suppose vastly different limits as to what their faith calls them to sacrifice.

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

The most common adjective used to describe the acts that precipitated the events of 911 was 'coward' and the most common adverb was 'cowardly'. 

I have never agreed with that use of cowardly to describe the 9-11 attacks, it's ignorant rhetoric, in truth it was simply incomprehensible to our western sensibilities at the time and it was shock and defensiveness that lead to the general use of specious vocabulary, nobody that called it cowardly could honestly say they had yet thought through what had happened from a rational perspective. In all fairness it was a very rare person who managed to stand back and think rationally about the motivations behind these actions for at least a year following it, and even now there are those that have never rethought the primal impulse that overtook western society at that time.

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

It's all we heard to describe their actions and I doubt those were the words used beyond the eastern end of the Mediterranean. 

Indeed.

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

To quote William Goldman, "You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

good quote.

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

My point, I suppose, is the unexamined equating of martyrdom with heroism. 

I see it is. I personally didn't advocate for an unexamined equating, though, if you are referring to my reply. I said I would hesitate to call it noble and I would require a plausible universe where it mattered to die for your christian faith in order to call it noble, really. And actually  while I am on the subject, I do believe the facts of the columbine events are quite telling in regard to the meaningfulness of dying for christian faith as it were. The fact that nobody actually did choose willingly to lay down their life for christian faith, the fact that nobody actually asked anyone to, and the fact that christianity has latched onto it for an example regardless of the previous two facts add quite neatly up to a world where dying for christianity doesn't seem to mean anything. Well, except, as a religious fantasy.

OccamsChainsaw wrote:

Are they the same thing?  The human mind (like this post) is a convoluted mess that could arrive at the same conclusion by paths of bravery or fear or both.  There are better ways to express heroism than to stand there, watching a bullet slam into your face.

I agree that there are other ways to express heroism, and that you could call them better in that, for example, running into the line of fire and managing to disable a gunman before you die confers clearly tangible benefit to someone.

It is this tangible benefit which is really required for me to call it heroism the intention to confer benefit to someone else unconditionally is a hero's primary motive. In this sense the 9-11 cell got it more right than christianity seems to have, they at least believed that their actions could emancipate an economically oppressed society, the benefit perceived by those who believe the columbine girls were martyrs is that others will be inspired to be 'better christians' as if more devout christian arrogance even has a benefactor to speak of, which it doesn't.

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Kevin R Brown wrote:I know

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I know the story's a tad old, but - despite the mighty distance between where I live and where it occurred - the Columbine Massacre still manages to get itself atop the topic pile in my neck of the woods here or there.

A question (and we'll leave actual facts, like a certain misattributed quote, out of this one for the time being): Both Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott, beautiful young women about to graduate and move on to whatever grander exploits, were shot dead during the murderous rampage at Columbine and are, to this day, refereced to by a large number of Christians as martyrs to the Christian faith. Both Scott and Bernall were (falsely) alleged to have been asked to effectively choose between saying "Yes" as to whether or not she believed in God or being shot at point-blank range, and chose the former option.

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

 

EDIT: Your posts, unaccredited, may be pasted into my blog on this website. Just FYI.

There was never a point in my life where I would have said yes. 


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Kevin R Brown wrote:I know

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I know the story's a tad old, but - despite the mighty distance between where I live and where it occurred - the Columbine Massacre still manages to get itself atop the topic pile in my neck of the woods here or there.

A question (and we'll leave actual facts, like a certain misattributed quote, out of this one for the time being): Both Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott, beautiful young women about to graduate and move on to whatever grander exploits, were shot dead during the murderous rampage at Columbine and are, to this day, refereced to by a large number of Christians as martyrs to the Christian faith. Both Scott and Bernall were (falsely) alleged to have been asked to effectively choose between saying "Yes" as to whether or not she believed in God or being shot at point-blank range, and chose the former option.

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

 

EDIT: Your posts, unaccredited, may be pasted into my blog on this website. Just FYI.

Technically speaking, if they died for their faith, then they are martyrs, yes. The motivations of the killers in asking them to choose between their faith and their lives are irrelevant. All that matters is they die for their faith.

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BMcD wrote:Technically

BMcD wrote:

Technically speaking, if they died for their faith, then they are martyrs, yes. The motivations of the killers in asking them to choose between their faith and their lives are irrelevant. All that matters is they die for their faith.

  No offense BMcD but if, as we atheists assert, God doesn't exist  then the two teenage girls died for nothing.  That is perhaps an even more tragic scenario.

How awful for a martyr to be thrown into the jaws of death and die for a cause that has ( in my opinion ) no basis in reality.  To be killed defending an illusion boggles the mind.

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I suppose there are

I suppose there are measuring sticks of fanaticism and the unit of measure is what interested me.  Does my fanatical desire for chocolate put me in the same league as the anti-Semite willing to open and close the gas chamber door?  I'd like to think it doesn't but I can't be sure.

The descriptors 'coward' and 'cowardly' are among the most insulting and dehumanizing words to be flung in someones direction.  I suspect that Bush's speechwriters and handlers never once lost sight of what they were doing.

And I agree, the very essence of the heroic act is the benefit of others.

I'd write more but I have to go whip some actors into shape. 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:BMcD

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

BMcD wrote:

Technically speaking, if they died for their faith, then they are martyrs, yes. The motivations of the killers in asking them to choose between their faith and their lives are irrelevant. All that matters is they die for their faith.

  No offense BMcD but if, as we atheists assert, God doesn't exist  then the two teenage girls died for nothing.  That is perhaps an even more tragic scenario.

How awful for a martyr to be thrown into the jaws of death and die for a cause that has ( in my opinion ) no basis in reality.  To be killed defending an illusion boggles the mind.

I agree, they likely died for nothing. However, that doesn't affect the criteria for martyrdom in the Christian faith, which is: to die for your faith.

Also, another thing to consider is: Whether you or I feel their deaths were ultimately meaningless and empty is irrelevant. It wasn't us, it wasn't our lives. If they felt their deaths were meaningful, and took some solace from that feeling in a situation where their killers were likely going to kill them no matter what, then they benefited from their belief in a way that we shouldn't seek to belittle or pity. That's the positive aspect of faith, helping us cope with the moments in our lives that terrify us. It's just a shame that the comforting delusion has to come with all the negative baggage than invariably comes with it. If not for that... it'd be like Santa and the Easter Bunny, harmless.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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First of all, I think

First of all, I think everyone has their own opinions, so here's mine.

 

Have you read Rachel's Tears?

 

She already knew she was going to die. She was scared- but she knew where she was going, she knew she'd be safe. Rachel accepted it, and wanted to do as much as she could for God in her short lifespan. She wasn't perfect, nobody is.

I am not here to change your thoughts about God, that's your personal issue and hopefully you figure that out. It took me awhile, but I'm happy to have someone to always rely on. I will pray for you, even though you might not want it. I am here to tell you I think it is very disrespectful to write such things about Rachel when you don't know her. Then again, everyone has their own opinions, but there is something as going too far.

 

And she's just another dead kid? No, there is NO such thing as "just another dead kid." Every person put on this earth is special. Even if you don't believe in God, you shouldn't believe anyone is not important.

 

Yeah, Rachel's dead. But her story has reached MILLIONS of people and changed their hearts. She's not just another dead kid.


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Hayley wrote:I am here to

Hayley wrote:

I am here to tell you I think it is very disrespectful to write such things about Rachel when you don't know her.

And you know her? Not being sarcastic,I assume you must know her to say this.Well knew.

Hayley wrote:

Yeah, Rachel's dead. But her story has reached MILLIONS of people and changed their hearts. She's not just another dead kid.

I think you're somewhat jumping the gun there.I doubt the majority of people who even know the Colombine story know about Cassie and Racheal.I didn't until I studied it. To say it affected millions of people is simply dishonest.

You should rather ask why god allowed the whole thing to happen,what with everything life being special.Or is that just his plan?

"Hay if I let some innocent kids get murdered MILLIONS of people will come to love me!"

Ya that's genius.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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Hayley wrote:First of all, I

Hayley wrote:

First of all, I think everyone has their own opinions, so here's mine.

 

Have you read Rachel's Tears?

Yes, I have.

 

Quote:
She already knew she was going to die. She was scared- but she knew where she was going, she knew she'd be safe. Rachel accepted it, and wanted to do as much as she could for God in her short lifespan. She wasn't perfect, nobody is.

She was an angsty teenager with occassional fits of depression, that all angsty teenagers, and channelled those emotions onto paper. Arguing this 'premonition' angle is nonsense - if she knew she was going to get shot full of holes, why did she go to the schoolgrounds? Moreover, why was she hanging-out with her good friend Richard and put him in the line of fire (resulting in his paralysis)?

Quote:
I am not here to change your thoughts about God, that's your personal issue and hopefully you figure that out. It took me awhile, but I'm happy to have someone to always rely on. I will pray for you, even though you might not want it. I am here to tell you I think it is very disrespectful to write such things about Rachel when you don't know her. Then again, everyone has their own opinions, but there is something as going too far.

What things? Calling her beautiful?

My, what an offensive thing for me to say.

 

Quote:
And she's just another dead kid? No, there is NO such thing as "just another dead kid." Every person put on this earth is special. Even if you don't believe in God, you shouldn't believe anyone is not important.

Yes, she is.

And Christians who insist otherwise are doing a tremendous injustice to the tragedy, as they shout down the truth regarding Eric and Dylan's actual motives.

 

Quote:
Yeah, Rachel's dead. But her story has reached MILLIONS of people and changed their hearts. She's not just another dead kid.

What Loc said.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:they

Kevin R Brown wrote:

they shout down the truth regarding Eric and Dylan's actual motives.

 

 

Which were?


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Kevin R

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

they shout down the truth regarding Eric and Dylan's actual motives.

 

 

Which were?

Eric Harris was a diagnosed sociopath, whose agenda was to kill more people on a random killing spree than anyone else had done before himself, thus landing himself a page in the world's history books. The shooting wasn't even supposed to be a shooting: the cafeteria was to be blown-up by a pair of propane-based bombs that, had they exploded, would've caused the school's second floor to come crashing down - probably killing somewhere in the nighborhood of 200-300 people.

The two would then pick-off people as they fled, get to their vehicle, and make for an airport - where Harris intended to hijack an airliner and crash it into a NYC skyscraper.

 

Of course, Eric clearly saw himself as a much more capable human being than he actually was. The last part of his plan was, at best, far-fetched, and the initial part didn't happen as intended because neither he nor Dylan were particularly good at making reliable explosives.

 

Dylan himself is another matter. By all accounts, he was a shy outcast at the school, Eric being one of his only 'friends'. Harris used his emotional leverage to manipulate Dylan into being his accomplice.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Jeffrick; "I can

   Jeffrick; "I can picture two scared teenager girls, or myself (male age 52) trying to think of a proper answer, the one that keeps me alive!!!!

   You/ I  have 3 seconds to pick the right one; "  /////////////// 

  Me; "YOU ARE GOD, SPARE ME GOD, PLEASE, I LOVE YOU ! I LOVE YOU, LOVE YOU ....... """"

    BOOM     , Ouch ..... my last words (if possible) "FUCK YOU DEVIL" ..... 

 


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Christians say Martyrs, I

Christians say Martyrs, I say Inferiors


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One can think they are brave

One can think they are brave and still be wrong about what position they are holding.

I am quite sure Roman soldiers, and Egyptian soldiers thought that they were "bravely" fighting for the deities they believed in, but they were still wrong. And I am quite sure that their enemies considered them cowards.

I think intellectual braveness trumps all physical might. It allows one the introspection to admit when one is wrong.

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Loc wrote: I think you're

Loc wrote:

I think you're somewhat jumping the gun there.I doubt the majority of people who even know the Colombine story know about Cassie and Racheal.I didn't until I studied it. To say it affected millions of people is simply dishonest.

You should rather ask why god allowed the whole thing to happen,what with everything life being special.Or is that just his plan?

"Hay if I let some innocent kids get murdered MILLIONS of people will come to love me!"

Ya that's genius.

 

Well I don't think would ever want such bad things as that to happen to anyone, but how do expect God to have protection over our school's if we in a sense have kicked God out of all our schools? I mean praying and such things as that are not allowed in a majority of schools. 


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mini me wrote:

"praying and such things as that are not allowed in a majority of schools. "

 

Wrong, mini me.  Prayer is perfectly legit in schools.  What is not allowed is "captive audience-prayer."  In other words, either:

   1. School officials/teachers leading a class in prayer, without any concern for

        student(s) who might not want to pray, or not pray in the manner of the

        official/teacher.

 

          ...or...

 

   2. Student gatherings that individual students cannot opt out of.

 

Even *after* the Supreme Court decisions about school prayer, I myself prayed (Grace Before Meals,) in a public school, including the use of the Sign Of The Cross, (which is not only visibly praying, but also unavoidably Roman Catholic prayer.)  Guess what?  Nobody said a word.  This whole "prayer is forbidden in schools" bit is nonsense.  (This, of course, was back in elementary school, when I was still religious.  Oh, and in case anybody's wondering, I was *not* put up to that by my parents, or by any religious figure.  It was entirely my choice.)

 

The Religious Right can officially stop whining, now.

 

Conor


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mini me wrote: ...but how do

mini me wrote:
...but how do expect God to have protection over our school's if we in a sense have kicked God out of all our schools? I mean praying and such things as that are not allowed in a majority of schools.

Why has there never been a single school shooting in Denmark? There hasn't been any prayer in Danish schools, neither official or just students praying on their own accord in many many years. We are approx. 80 % atheist here, and the rest are new age hippies, or muslim immigrants. None are "Christians" by any American standards. Not one school shooting. And hardly any teen pregnancy, no gang violence.

Why is it that heathen, Godless Denmark is such a safe and happy place to live (we are the happiest nation in the world according to a pole. 60 minutes did a piece on it)

Does God love us that much? What have we done to deserve that, that the US hasn't?

It would certainly be wrong to say that all citizens of the US are real, good, godfearing Christians, like yourself mini me.

But the US has hardly kicked God as far out of their country, as we have here in Denmark. Why are we so well off? Why is God so good to us? Please explain

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
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There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Yeah Nikolaj

Yeah Nikolaj    

  ?

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Nikolaj wrote:But the US has

Nikolaj wrote:

But the US has hardly kicked God as far out of their country, as we have here in Denmark. Why are we so well off? Why is God so good to us? Please explain

A)The Antichrist will be Danish?

B)The Antichrist will eat a cheese danish, and so has some affinity for the region?

C)God's giving the Danes some time to regroup, in the hopes that exactly 1,000 years after the last time they invaded Great Britain, they'll do it again, just in time to let someone else conquer the place again? (Danes attacked northern England approximately one week before the Battle of Hastings, costing Harold (as opposed to the invading Danish leader, Harald) significant resources. He lost men to injuries/deaths, had to release some levies early because they'd discharged their service against the Danes, and instead of being well-rested to meet the Normans, his army had to march the length of England twice and fight a major battle in a span of 4-6 days. Without Harald's attack in the north, it's likely William would have lost in the south.)

D)God loves to tweak American evangelicals by being nice to people they loathe?

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I stumbled upon this page

I stumbled upon this page looking for the name of the other girl who was shot for professing her faith in God (whch I found out was Rachel) - As I've been reading what you guys write and the things you believe, I get chills - not the good kind of chills - and I have to answer a question that you asked about God - you asked "If this all powerful being can stop one person from being a victim of criminal murder, why not be consistent and save all the students?"  WELL you actually asked a very good question - one that even christians themselves ask from time to time  (all though they may not voice them for others to hear)  and my answer may not satisfy you but I think sometimes we just need to give people the truth (weather they believe it or not). First "this all powerful being" has a name , God - not 'god', but God. God is all powerful in every sense of the meaning. In Romans 12:2 it talks about God's good pleasing and perfect will - He has a will for everyone and a plan for their lives - We may not always understand why God doesn't intervene in certain situations, but I do know one thing - satan is our enemy (whether you think so or not) and he is bent on destroying Christians and pulling them away from their walk with God. I'm sure that the enemy thought he had won big on that fatal day - But one thing he never expected to happen was this - Christians around the country became aware of what those two girls said in the library (again ... weather YOU think so or not) and they strengthened their faith in Christ and grew closer to God in their walk with Him. Young people were moved so much by their strong faith, that they joined joined their local youth groups and ,for the first time, realized that this is no longer a game. Not that it ever was, but sometimes we "humans" need a wake up call.  At the time, I was 14 and I still hold that day as a "defining moment" in my own walk with God - So you see, God may not have stopped a tragedy from happening but He used that day to reach people all over the country and possibly even all over the world. And to think it was just two young teens, at school on a normal september day - and then God said "come I have a job for you"  - Being a christian is not easy , especially these days, but it's worth it - WELL worth it .... This life is only the begining - eternity is what we are looking forward to , whether you spend it with God or not is up to you.  


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I'm going to start with

I'm going to start with saying that people can't forget that the murderers were also victims. Children are especially vulnerable to abuse and rejection, and shit like persistent bullying can fuck a person up. I'm not trying to excuse their actions, but merely explain them to an extent. I've done some consideration as to what I would do if I were forced to go to school every day in fear of assault and rejection by my peers, and I know the results wouldn't have been pretty. We must remember those who were killed, but we must also remember why. And prevent it from happening again by attacking all of the possible reasons for such actions. Including instilling the belief in children that it's wrong to "tattle tale".

~WHIT~ wrote:

As I've been reading what you guys write and the things you believe, I get chills - not the good kind of chills - and I have to answer a question that you asked about

Starting with an emotional response is not good. You need to try logic.

~WHIT~ wrote:

God - you asked "If this all powerful being can stop one person from being a victim of criminal murder, why not be consistent and save all the students?"  WELL you actually asked a very good question - one that even christians themselves ask from time to time

We are well aware. Some of us used to be christians. Not myself though; I've never held to any belief in any god. As a child, I once hoped, but then I learned more about what all these gods were like. I no longer can even say that I hope there is a god. I haven't been able to say it for a good two decades.

~WHIT~ wrote:
  (all though they may not voice them for others to hear)  and my answer may not satisfy you but I think sometimes we just need to give people the truth (weather they believe it or not). 

Got to stop you again. You say the word "truth", but it is not an appropriate word. You don't know that it's true. You simply believe that it is. Belief may be able to create reality for yourself, but it doesn't create reality itself.

~WHIT~ wrote:
First "this all powerful being" has a name , God - not 'god', but God.

Perhaps ironically, god is not the name of your god. YHWH is.

~WHIT~ wrote:

God is all powerful in every sense of the meaning. In Romans 12:2 it talks about God's good pleasing and perfect will - He has a will for everyone and a plan for their lives

Yay, we're walking puppets. How awesome. Not.

~WHIT~ wrote:
 - We may not always understand why God doesn't intervene in certain situations, but I do know one thing - satan is our enemy (whether you think so or not)

Whether you think so or not, satan is as fictional as god. And less vicious to boot. How fun is that?

~WHIT~ wrote:
 and he is bent on destroying Christians and pulling them away from their walk with God. I'm sure that the enemy thought he had won big on that fatal day

How so?

~WHIT~ wrote:
 - But one thing he never expected to happen was this - Christians around the country became aware of what those two girls said in the library (again ... weather YOU think so or not) and they strengthened their faith in Christ and grew closer to God in their walk with Him.

People find reasons to believe in a religion all the time. It's hardly surprising that a few would turn to the belief that they all died for a plan beyond their comprehension, since such a belief was offered to them in an emotionally vulnerable time.

~WHIT~ wrote:
 Young people were moved so much by their strong faith, that they joined joined their local youth groups and ,for the first time, realized that this is no longer a game.

You think that any generation has a hard time figuring out that the world is a harsher place than they think it should be?

~WHIT~ wrote:
 Not that it ever was, but sometimes we "humans" need a wake up call.  At the time, I was 14 and I still hold that day as a "defining moment" in my own walk with God

It never ceases to amaze me that people would believe in a god because something terrible happened, despite my knowledge that it happens as often as it does. Why do you want a god that made a plan for a couple of guys to be inflicted with such anger that they go and shoot up a school? I'd much rather have oblivion than be forced to experience such insanity on such a grand scale.

~WHIT~ wrote:
 - So you see, God may not have stopped a tragedy from happening but He used that day to reach people all over the country and possibly even all over the world.

I guarantee you that christianity was not the only religion that gained followers that day. I guarantee you even more that many followers of many religions abandoned their faith on that day.

~WHIT~ wrote:
 And to think it was just two young teens, at school on a normal september day - and then God said "come I have a job for you"  - Being a christian is not easy , especially these days, but it's worth it - WELL worth it .... This life is only the begining - eternity is what we are looking forward to , whether you spend it with God or not is up to you.  

Dying is not a job. It is non-existence. This is one of the things that makes people like you so dangerous. You think that by dying a martyr, you'll live in heaven in complete happiness forever alongside a magical being of supreme power and wisdom. So dying is a good thing. You throw your lives in the face of an enemy. How fortunate that we are making grand steps in ridding the world of such a primitive insanity.

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Jeffrick wrote:    I can

Jeffrick wrote:

    I can picture an angry, sexually frustrated teenage boy/s  with guns/power   looking down at  a  girl he has no chance with under normal circumstances, but now he has a gun,   the power, he could never dreem of before. To exercise his power  and his frustration;  he asks a question;;   Those   two girls  are dead  no matter what the answer is. That is the suicidal power of a gun.

We can thank the Christian church for loading up these young women with the fear of hell. All things masculine and sexual are evil, all things feminized and sexually repressed are holy. Then they wonder why there was so much animosity, must be the devil.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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I think noble and heroic are

I think noble and heroic are always labeled after the fact with there being no way to tell what is going to be called heroic and what will be called idiotic. We ascribe meaning to events after theyre over with hindsight and rationalization. (I think there was "an age" of martyrs that were all deemed good choices after the fact to spread the word of christianity in the early church. I don't think officially its even recognized anymore.)

Now, was it a good decision? Probably not. But lets say you save another person in the act of dying for God. Then its a better decision. At least its good for somebody. There's no reason to die for no reason. God does not need any more advertizing. So even after the fact, to say that God is doing a great work through their martyrdom is kind of not cool. Wouldn't that make their parents feel even more guilty about being angry at God for taking their kids? Which they should be angry. Or would it give them comfort like there was a reason? I don't know. Even if God was using this tragedy for some greater purpose, its definitely not for anyone to say "oh,see, its Gods plan", like that explains anything.


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Look, man, some people say

Look, man, some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness! Repent and turn away from things that offend a holy and perfect God, turn to Jesus man!"                                          

 

I promise everybody is askin the same questions, “Who am I? What is my purpose and my direction?”
Probably believe that you exist for no other reason
Than self satisfaction, hedonism, and pleasing things
Life’s about you gettin yours and being happy
Even if it means a divorce and switchin families?
Your job, your house, your car, your spouse
It’s all for the glory of you…or else you out
You go to school, get ya degrees, and get a job
So you can make a whole lot of cheese, cuz life’s real hard
You never thought of livin to please a real God
And that’s the reason He made you
See, He gave you breath to breathe, the chest to breathe it
So you can taste and see He’s the best, believe it
He made us for His glory, and not for your own, homie
Our God is holy…you should repent and die slowly…

(and I mean dying to the ways of the flesh, and being reborn by the Spirit of God; having God within you, his characteristics, his traits, his likes and dislikes, his love and his forgiveness, and his strength, like Rachel did.  Jesus's perfect, sin-less life was sacrificed on the cross and never yelled or got mad at the people.... instead he prayed for them.

Man, see some folks say, "All truth is relative, it just depends on what you believe." You know, "hey man, ain't no way to know for sure who God is or what's really true." But that means you believe your own statement; that there's no way to know what's really true. You're saying that that statement is true. You're killing yourself.

"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him." John 3:16-21

On being reborn, Jesus spoke about it to Nicodemus.  He even said you don't see the wind and what causes it blow this way and that. But you believe it's there.  Believe in Christ, the only way to eternal life and to God, so you can call him friend, instead of Judge.  And God WILL judge the world when He so chooses, because it would be against his nature not to,  but if you believe in Jesus and begin on a non-stop relationship with Him, that changes the way you act in and think about this world, then you will get that eternity, and believe me, the Bible drops clues on the parties and feasts..... but it also shows that it is spotless.

"No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man. In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up—and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life.

It is here that, Jesus, God in the flesh, hints at the Gospel of Grace.  So, that the 266 babies born every minute can have a chance to hear and choose to believe in God's salvation.  It is unfortunate because since we believe the only way to God is through Christ that we also realize there's a whole lot of people who have not fully understood or even fully heard this good news of eternal salvation.  But this is why Christians spread the Gospel,  and to bring you God's truth, it is still however, up to you to believe, and not just believe as in i know 2+2=4, or i believe it will rain tomorrow, but the kind of belief that says, I know Ronnie worked hard to win this game, I believe in him!  you got to believe to walk with Him, and yearn to be holy and blameless like Him;  you will stumble, and you will fall, but the Spirit of God will be your strength to fight.... this faith for us is a fight for our life....  and we train to become disciples of Christ;  I mean I'm in the Army, and I knew after signing the papers, I was not gonna hear the recruiter say, "here's your weapon, here's your kevlar,  now off to Iraq with you!!  Win the war on terrorism!!"  NO, God, no,  they're gonna train me, what tactics to rely on, how to use my weapons, how to navigate,  you're gonna be just like any fighter,  I mean you just don't jump in the ring and get to swinging....  but the church is a whole body, in very much the same way an army is,  I'm not in the fight alone....  Believe me, this flesh aint playing with you,  but I will plant seeds and best believe I'm praying with you

Jesus is not gonna force you to trust in Him,  but he will reward those who seek Him...   When God lived on the earth, he came not to judge, but to save, only through the sacrifice of his own blood.... but on his second coming he will judge those who are ungodly and those who did not believe in the gospel, for our testimony to you was to believe...

YOU CAN'T SEE THE ATOM BUT YOU BELIEVE ITS THERE CUZ SOMEBODY TOLD YOU!!!  This is God's message intended for YOU!!! because that's who he's crazy about! YOU! He's not trying to play you!!!! He wants the best for you, and the best thing is simply put is HIMSELF!!!!  I know momma told you not to trust just anybody, but tell me, who is like the Lord, NOT ANYBODY!!!!

 

Air Assault. I'm at Stryker in Baghdad, say hello if you're in the neighborhood!!!

 


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"Look, man, some people say

"Look, man, some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right?"

That would be one of thousands of better reasons to disbelieve in your god, but it is by no stretch the only reason we are here.

"What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating."

Wrong. Evil is subjective. That which you hate you call evil, and that which you love you call good. Your invisible friend has nothing to do with it.

"But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level?"

"He" could have prevented the whole problem by making it impossible for life to be "immoral" in the first place.

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" If we want Him to stop

" If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff."

2 things. First, why not just fix us? Why do we need to be eliminated? Is your god incapable of doing other than destruction?
Second, I don't think "evil" stuff. It's depressing.

"But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness! Repent and turn away from things that offend a holy and perfect God, turn to Jesus man!"

An opportunity for you to succeed were 8 billion of your peers have failed. How did one guy dying, an inevitable situation, do anything? You say it did lots, but there was no observable effect. 2000 odd years later, and all that's happened is us getting better at doing those "evil" things. Back then you could kill ten or twenty people in a few days before someone killed you. Now we can kill millions in minutes. Yeah, jesus accomplished a lot. Not.

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"I promise everybody is

"I promise everybody is askin the same questions, “Who am I? What is my purpose and my direction?”"

A broken promise to add to your failure. I am Vastet, and my purpose is my own.

"Probably believe that you exist for no other reason Than self satisfaction, hedonism, and pleasing things"

That's a ridiculously simplified observation of a possible meaning of existence. I say possible because it's up to us to choose our own meaning. That's right, you can actually make your own decisions.

"And that’s the reason He made you See, He gave you breath to breathe, the chest to breathe it So you can taste and see He’s the best, believe it He made us for His glory, and not for your own, homie Our God is holy…you should repent and die slowly…"

What an arrogant, self righteous piece of shit your god must be to create so much suffering JUST to appease his own sense of pride. And you actually like it. Ugh.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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"(and I mean dying to the

"(and I mean dying to the ways of the flesh, and being reborn by the Spirit of God; having God within you, his characteristics, his traits, his likes and dislikes, his love and his forgiveness, and his strength, like Rachel did.  Jesus's perfect, sin-less life was sacrificed on the cross and never yelled or got mad at the people.... instead he prayed for them."

If he really wanted mindless zombies, why are we here? Why didn't he just clone himself if he wanted people to be as he is?

"Man, see some folks say, "All truth is relative, it just depends on what you believe." You know, "hey man, ain't no way to know for sure who God is or what's really true." But that means you believe your own statement; that there's no way to know what's really true. You're saying that that statement is true. You're killing yourself."

Truth is well defined. If I say space is a vacuum with trace particles, it is true. We have observed it to be true. When you say god is real, you're making things up. It's called lying.

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"This is how much God loved

"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son."

Hardly a sacrifice. He created jesus in the first place, remember? He could recreate him at whim. Besides, jesus is now at god's side, so what did he sacrifice?

"God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again."

So instead of telling us ALL, directly, he instead sends ONE man to ONE insignificant piece of sand on the vast Earth at ONE point in time over a million years of human existence, to spread the message by word of mouth.

I could have done better, and I'm not even omnipotent.

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I've reached the point where

I've reached the point where I'll start repeating myself if I quote every word you posted, so now I'll skip through crap I already blew away to get to other points.

"He even said you don't see the wind and what causes it blow this way and that. But you believe it's there."

I can't see the wind without the assistance of technology, but I can feel it. I can watch it blow things around. Obviously it's there. Where's your god?

"Believe in Christ, the only way to eternal life and to God, so you can call him friend, instead of Judge."

Funny how millions of people believe in your god, yet none of them are immortal eh? I think you're just scared of dying, and reach for any idea that suggests you won't. Christianity was simply the first thing that got an emotional response from you.

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"It is here that, Jesus, God

"It is here that, Jesus, God in the flesh, hints at the Gospel of Grace.  So, that the 266 babies born every minute can have a chance to hear and choose to believe in God's salvation."

There is little choice involved. If you'd been born in China, in the year 100 (or in an uncontacted South American tribe today, for that matter), you would never have heard of jesus or god. How can you believe in something when you aren't even aware of the concept? Where was god when Egypt was the most powerful country in the world?

"but the kind of belief that says, I know Ronnie worked hard to win this game, I believe in him!"

How could I possibly put such faith in such a monster as your god? A path to evil is all you describe.

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"I mean I'm in the Army, and

"I mean I'm in the Army, and I knew after signing the papers, I was not gonna hear the recruiter say, "here's your weapon, here's your kevlar,  now off to Iraq with you!!  Win the war on terrorism!!"  NO, God, no,  they're gonna train me, what tactics to rely on, how to use my weapons, how to navigate,  you're gonna be just like any fighter,  I mean you just don't jump in the ring and get to swinging....  but the church is a whole body, in very much the same way an army is,  I'm not in the fight alone....  Believe me, this flesh aint playing with you,  but I will plant seeds and best believe I'm praying with you"

Amazing how true this is. Yes, churches brainwash the logic out of you in order that you can believe the drivel they spout. Because if you applied any logic at all, you'd see how ridiculous it is to have omnipotent imaginary friends who never do anything.

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"Jesus is not gonna force

"Jesus is not gonna force you to trust in Him"

Quite the opposite actually. Never could I put trust in an insane, sadistic megalomaniac as your god. Same goes for any of his devotees, including jesus, and you.

" but he will reward those who seek Him"

With delusions.

"YOU CAN'T SEE THE ATOM BUT YOU BELIEVE ITS THERE CUZ SOMEBODY TOLD YOU!!!"

YOU CAN'T SEE GOD BUT YOU BELIEVE ITS THERE CUZ SOMEBODY TOLD YOU!!!

By the way, I can see an atom. I'll even show you a picture:

And with that, I rest my case.

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Kevin R Brown wrote:I know

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I know the story's a tad old, but - despite the mighty distance between where I live and where it occurred - the Columbine Massacre still manages to get itself atop the topic pile in my neck of the woods here or there.

A question (and we'll leave actual facts, like a certain misattributed quote, out of this one for the time being): Both Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott, beautiful young women about to graduate and move on to whatever grander exploits, were shot dead during the murderous rampage at Columbine and are, to this day, refereced to by a large number of Christians as martyrs to the Christian faith. Both Scott and Bernall were (falsely) alleged to have been asked to effectively choose between saying "Yes" as to whether or not she believed in God or being shot at point-blank range, and chose the former option.

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

Yes.

 

 

 


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Christian_Apologist

Christian_Apologist wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

Yes. 

Why? If they really were true believers, then they believed they would instantly transported to eternal bliss. Sounds like a pretty hedonistic rather than heroic decision. How do you define heroic vs. hedonistic?

If you told me I could go to some pleasure orgy for a long time and all I had to do was suffer through a few minutes of pain, then I took you up on the offer, how is that heroic?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC

EXC wrote:

Why? If they really were true believers, then they believed they would instantly transported to eternal bliss. Sounds like a pretty hedonistic rather than heroic decision. How do you define heroic vs. hedonistic?

I really cannot say what they were thinking at that very moment but wanting to go to Heaven is not anymore hedonistic than wanting to be healthy or in a stable relationship with a loved one.


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Christian_Apologist wrote:I

Christian_Apologist wrote:

I really cannot say what they were thinking at that very moment but wanting to go to Heaven is not anymore hedonistic than wanting to be healthy or in a stable relationship with a loved one.

Doesn't the bible teach that heaven is way better than any experience here on earth? Plus I'm sure they caused a lot of heartache for their parents. So it would seem if they said yes, they believed things would work out better this way. So it was a selfish hedonist act on their part.

I know the bible teaches that suicide is a sin(though shall not kill), so you can't get to heaven through suicide. But it seems if you are a true believer, you would look forward to being in a situation where someone else could kill you. You should do dangerous extreme sports, then claim it was really an accident at the final judgement. Why not start the eternal bliss now?

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote:"Look, man,

Vastet wrote:
"Look, man, some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right?" That would be one of thousands of better reasons to disbelieve in your god, but it is by no stretch the only reason we are here. "What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating." Wrong. Evil is subjective. That which you hate you call evil, and that which you love you call good. Your invisible friend has nothing to do with it. "But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level?" "He" could have prevented the whole problem by making it impossible for life to be "immoral" in the first place.

 

As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems.  Look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to offer objective morality.

First I need to clarify that atheists can be morally good.  They can even be people of integrity.  But that isn't the issue.  Having good morals doesn’t mean you have objective morals. One atheist’s good morals might only be coincidentally consistent with true objective morality where another atheist’s isn’t.

Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself.  Subjective morals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person.  This is the best that atheism has to offer us as a worldview.

Think about it, in atheism, there is no moral right and wrong.  There is no moral "should and shouldn't”.  Why?  Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective moral truth is established.  In atheism morality is up for grabs.

In an atheistic worldview, lying, cheating, and stealing are neither right or wrong.  They are phenomena to which, if the atheist so decides, moral values can be assigned.  Sure, the atheist might say that we all should want to help society function properly and it does not benefit society as a whole to lie, cheat, and steal.  But, this is weak intellectual reasoning.

Let me put some flesh and blood on this and show you why.  What if there were a global economic meltdown and social turmoil ensued so that robbing people at gunpoint to get food became common place.  Robbery would then be a social norm.  Would such a norm be wrong?  If it is not wrong, then you affirm situational ethics and can’t complain when the situation suits somebody else’s fancy and you get robbed at gunpoint.  Of course, this would lead to anarchy.

If you say such theft is wrong, then why is it wrong?  If it is your opinion that it is wrong, that is nice, but opinions don’t make ethical standards.  If you said it is wrong because it is wrong, you are just begging the question.  Besides, that would mean there was a moral standard outside of yourself to which you must answer and that would imply a Moral Law Giver.

Anyway, some atheists maintain that the best moral system is that which brings the greatest happiness, the least amount of suffering, and the greatest freedom for as many people as possible.  That is a nice sentiment, but it doesn’t work.  Take a look at slavery, for example.  The greatest happiness for the greatest number of people means that a minority of people should suffer in bondage.  This way, the greatest amount of freedom for the majority is ensured.  But if the atheist says that it is wrong to enslave a minority to benefit the majority, then why is it wrong?  Because he said so?  If he says it’s wrong because the minority is suffering, so what?  Why is suffering wrong?  It may be unpleasant.  It may not be nice.  But, from an atheistic worldview, why is it morally wrong to oppress a minority to benefit the majority?  Atheism can’t help us here. It just isn’t up to the task of proving solid answers.

Let me reiterate by saying that atheism offers a subjective moral system that is based on human experience, human conditions, and human reason.  By its very nature, such moral evaluation is relativistic, dangerous, can change, can become self contradictory, and can lead to anarchy.
True morality is not merely a collection of concepts agreed upon because it helps stop the guy with the gun from taking your food.  There is something more and the Bible offers us more.

It offers us an objective set of morals:  do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness, etc.  These morals don’t change depending on your opinion, your situation, or your personal preferences.  They are based on God’s character and since God doesn’t change, these morals don’t either.  Therefore, it is always wrong to lie, to steal, to commit adultery, and to bear false witness, but not so in atheism’s empty moral vacuum because morality is formed in a subjective manner.

So, after an economic meltdown when an armed stranger is approaching you on a dark road and you are taking food home to your hungry family, who would you rather the stranger be, a Christian who believes stealing is wrong and that God is watching or the atheist who sees a need and points his gun at you as he adapt his ethics to suit the moment?


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"As a worldview, atheism is

"As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt"

True enough. Fortunately atheism isn't a world view. It's simply the rejection of a theist world view.

"and is wrought with philosophical problems."

That, however, is a lie. Only theism has philosophical problems. Made worse by also having scientific and logical problems.

" Look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to offer objective morality."

Big surprise it must be to you that there is no atheist world view. Or objective morality for that matter.

"Having good morals doesn’t mean you have objective morals."

Objective morality does not exist. Morality is, has always been, and always will be subjective.

The rest of your post stems from this flaw, and is refuted by refuting the flaw.

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There was one more thing to

There was one more thing to comment on.

"So, after an economic meltdown when an armed stranger is approaching you on a dark road and you are taking food home to your hungry family, who would you rather the stranger be, a Christian who believes stealing is wrong and that God is watching or the atheist who sees a need and points his gun at you as he adapt his ethics to suit the moment?"

I'd rather the atheist. He'll kill me for food, which at least makes sense. The christian will pull the trigger just because I won't believe in his imaginary friend.

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If God saved every child of

If God saved every child of His from crime or murder, then no doubt everyone on earth would be bowing down to Him right now! God does not want us to believe because we see. That is having no trust in Him AT ALL! He wants us Christians to believe in Him and love Him and have faith in Him even when we can't see Him. Even if those people killed those girls for other reasons than believing in God, they said "YES!" They didn't say it to please themselves or to stand up to the men with the guns pointed at their heads, they said it to please GOD, and God will reward them for it. Their response was not a waisted attempt, because they get to spend eternity in heaven with God, and that is the greatest reward ever.