Christian Martyrs: Cassie Bernall & Rachel Scott (Christians, Interested in Your Opinions)

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Christian Martyrs: Cassie Bernall & Rachel Scott (Christians, Interested in Your Opinions)

I know the story's a tad old, but - despite the mighty distance between where I live and where it occurred - the Columbine Massacre still manages to get itself atop the topic pile in my neck of the woods here or there.

A question (and we'll leave actual facts, like a certain misattributed quote, out of this one for the time being): Both Cassie Bernall and Rachel Scott, beautiful young women about to graduate and move on to whatever grander exploits, were shot dead during the murderous rampage at Columbine and are, to this day, refereced to by a large number of Christians as martyrs to the Christian faith. Both Scott and Bernall were (falsely) alleged to have been asked to effectively choose between saying "Yes" as to whether or not she believed in God or being shot at point-blank range, and chose the former option.

In your opinion, Christian readers, was that a noble and heroic decision?

 

EDIT: Your posts, unaccredited, may be pasted into my blog on this website. Just FYI.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


anonomys (not verified)
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Well, looking from their

Well, looking from their perspective, those two where christians who lived entirely for God, and chose not to deny him. There are many reasons for a christian to regard them as heroic inspirations. Here is why christians beilieve this.

“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:10-12 

John 15:18-20

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

John 15:18-20  

Acts 14:21-22

When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 14:21-22  

Romans 8:35-39

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39

2 Corinthians 4:8-11

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 4:8-11  

2 Corinthians 12:10

For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Corinthians 12:10  

2 Timothy 3:12

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

2 Timothy 3:12  

1 Peter 4:12-14

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

1 Peter 4:12-14, 16 

 

 

Looking at their teachings, it is easy to see that they should be eager to say yes to God, even when faced with the most horrible things of the world. They would be comforted, and find peace in this scripture. and they would do it out of Love, not fear of Hell like many of you seem to believe. And honestly, whats the result? A show of devotion and inspiration to your brothers and sisters, and you are put in a blessed heaven with the very one you just stood up for. If a christian is to hear Gods voice, he should obey, out of love, nomatter what is demanded. (and the bible warns often of false prophets/satan pretending to be God)

So from a christians view, saying yes, and becoming a martyr is a very noble and heroic thing to do.

 


robj101
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Wow, scripture and

Wow, scripture and resurrections. It's for real!


cj
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anonomys wrote:Looking at

anonomys wrote:

Looking at their teachings, it is easy to see that they should be eager to say yes to God, even when faced with the most horrible things of the world. They would be comforted, and find peace in this scripture. and they would do it out of Love, not fear of Hell like many of you seem to believe. And honestly, whats the result? A show of devotion and inspiration to your brothers and sisters, and you are put in a blessed heaven with the very one you just stood up for. If a christian is to hear Gods voice, he should obey, out of love, nomatter what is demanded. (and the bible warns often of false prophets/satan pretending to be God)

So from a christians view, saying yes, and becoming a martyr is a very noble and heroic thing to do.

 

 

Ah, planning to blow up some day care centers-police stations-IRS buildings are we?

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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anonomys wrote:Looking at

anonomys wrote:
Looking at their teachings, it is easy to see that they should be eager to say yes to Allah, even when faced with the most horrible things of the world. They would be comforted, and find peace in this scripture. and they would do it out of Love, not fear of Hell like many of you seem to believe. And honestly, whats the result? A show of devotion and inspiration to your brothers and sisters, and you are put in a blessed heaven with the very one you just stood up for. If a muslim is to hear Allahs voice, he should obey, out of love, nomatter what is demanded. (and the bible warns often of false prophets/satan pretending to be Allah)

So from a muslims view, saying yes, and becoming a martyr is a very noble and heroic thing to do.

Thank you for explaining the mindset of the people who flew airplanes into skyscrapers to us.


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cj wrote:anonomys

cj wrote:

anonomys wrote:

Looking at their teachings, it is easy to see that they should be eager to say yes to God, even when faced with the most horrible things of the world. They would be comforted, and find peace in this scripture. and they would do it out of Love, not fear of Hell like many of you seem to believe. And honestly, whats the result? A show of devotion and inspiration to your brothers and sisters, and you are put in a blessed heaven with the very one you just stood up for. If a christian is to hear Gods voice, he should obey, out of love, nomatter what is demanded. (and the bible warns often of false prophets/satan pretending to be God)

So from a christians view, saying yes, and becoming a martyr is a very noble and heroic thing to do.

 

 

Ah, planning to blow up some day care centers-police stations-IRS buildings are we?

 

I remember recently reading some first hand accounts of Christians during the Crusades, fascinating stuff, mainly because they wrote about themselves exactly like a fundamentalist Muslim would write about themselves.  Noble martyrs, killing infidels and heretics in the name of the Lord, etc.

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html#The First Crusade  <-- This is not the source I was reading,  I can't find that, but it seems similar.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


cj
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mellestad wrote:   I

mellestad wrote:

 

I remember recently reading some first hand accounts of Christians during the Crusades, fascinating stuff, mainly because they wrote about themselves exactly like a fundamentalist Muslim would write about themselves.  Noble martyrs, killing infidels and heretics in the name of the Lord, etc.

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html#The First Crusade  <-- This is not the source I was reading,  I can't find that, but it seems similar.

 

Yes, people were frothed into frothing madness for the crusades.  And then they died by the thousands both going and coming home.  And Jerusalem was in the hands of christians only for very brief periods and then back to the infidels.  Total waste.

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Man, this topic still has

Man, this topic still has legs?

 

....And, apparently, Christians who google-stumble upon it really do think that it's a better idea to get shot in the face rather than attempt to save your own life with a little white lie. That's interesting. 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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jp wrote:If God saved every

jp wrote:

If God saved every child of His from crime or murder, then no doubt everyone on earth would be bowing down to Him right now! God does not want us to believe because we see. That is having no trust in Him AT ALL! He wants us Christians to believe in Him and love Him and have faith in Him even when we can't see Him. Even if those people killed those girls for other reasons than believing in God, they said "YES!" They didn't say it to please themselves or to stand up to the men with the guns pointed at their heads, they said it to please GOD, and God will reward them for it. Their response was not a waisted attempt, because they get to spend eternity in heaven with God, and that is the greatest reward ever.

Ridiculous.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:jp wrote:If God

Vastet wrote:
jp wrote:

If God saved every child of His from crime or murder, then no doubt everyone on earth would be bowing down to Him right now! God does not want us to believe because we see. That is having no trust in Him AT ALL! He wants us Christians to believe in Him and love Him and have faith in Him even when we can't see Him. Even if those people killed those girls for other reasons than believing in God, they said "YES!" They didn't say it to please themselves or to stand up to the men with the guns pointed at their heads, they said it to please GOD, and God will reward them for it. Their response was not a waisted attempt, because they get to spend eternity in heaven with God, and that is the greatest reward ever.

Ridiculous.

Indeed  - he/she it just claimed that criminals are doing God's will. If that doesn't make the Pauline/Christian God a dick I don't know what does.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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If I were God, and you died

If I were God, and you died kissing my ass, I would give you an extra virgin or something.


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jp wrote:If God saved every

jp wrote:

If God saved every child of His from crime or murder, then no doubt everyone on earth would be bowing down to Him right now! God does not want us to believe because we see. That is having no trust in Him AT ALL! He wants us Christians to believe in Him and love Him and have faith in Him even when we can't see Him.

so you're basically god's mail-order bride?

jp wrote:

Even if those people killed those girls for other reasons than believing in God, they said "YES!"

no, they didn't.  that's been proved conclusively by newly released police reports.  please don't tell me you still believe that bullshit story.

still, for the sake of argument, if this story was true (and it isn't), i think that, if one of these "martyrs" had been my daughter, as much as i would want to castrate the gunmen who shot her down, i would nonetheless be at least a little angry at her for getting herself taken out of my life and denying the world all the good she could have done just because she wanted to speak up for her invisible friend. 

i remember very well what it was to be a fundy and, even in those days, had my daughter said, "no, i don't believe in god," to save her life (assuming those psychopaths wouldn't have shot her anyway), i know i would have taken her in my arms when she came home and said, "it's ok, honey, thank god you're safe," and i would have never, never, wished she had answered otherwise, and anybody who would wish such a "martyr's death" on their child is a fucking sicko.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:jp wrote:If God

iwbiek wrote:

jp wrote:

If God saved every child of His from crime or murder, then no doubt everyone on earth would be bowing down to Him right now! God does not want us to believe because we see. That is having no trust in Him AT ALL! He wants us Christians to believe in Him and love Him and have faith in Him even when we can't see Him.

so you're basically god's mail-order bride?

jp wrote:

Even if those people killed those girls for other reasons than believing in God, they said "YES!"

no, they didn't.  that's been proved conclusively by newly released police reports.  please don't tell me you still believe that bullshit story.

still, for the sake of argument, if this story was true (and it isn't), i think that, if one of these "martyrs" had been my daughter, as much as i would want to castrate the gunmen who shot her down, i would nonetheless be at least a little angry at her for getting herself taken out of my life and denying the world all the good she could have done just because she wanted to speak up for her invisible friend. 

i remember very well what it was to be a fundy and, even in those days, had my daughter said, "no, i don't believe in god," to save her life (assuming those psychopaths wouldn't have shot her anyway), i know i would have taken her in my arms when she came home and said, "it's ok, honey, thank god you're safe," and i would have never, never, wished she had answered otherwise, and anybody who would wish such a "martyr's death" on their child is a fucking sicko.

As long as they keep spreading that story people will keep believing it. Nothing quite like lying for Jesus.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin