# Are Eskimos going to hell?

Leeboy
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Are Eskimos going to hell?

If one doesn't believe in god, because god is unknown to them (in his xtian form), such as Eskimos (not so much today, but for the sake of argument, about 150 years ago when there were still Eskimos that didn't have any outside interference), or Africans, or any other "ignorant of god's love" tribe, do they automatically go to hell to be tortured, tormented or just plain screwed over, all because someone who created them did so in such a way that they would never hear about him, so they can't know him, and won't be saved? If they were to get baptised, wouldn't the water freeze? And just what WOULD you do for a Klondike Bar? Many questions, as of yet, all unanswered. Sorry for the run on sentences. I didn't want to break them all up. It's much too late for that.

Loc
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We can't understand god's

We can't understand god's ways. He will judge them in a fair way.

Well that's what I got told with that question at school

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

Kevin R Brown
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Oh, they probably are. Don't

Oh, they probably are. Don't feel too bad for them though; some of us are being dumped into the lake of fire because God withheld compelling evidence of his existence from us, and as a result we didn't believe in him.

What a joker, eh?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

Renee Obsidianwords
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I had a conversation with a

I had a conversation with a pastor friend of mine some time back about this. My question to him was "if gods love or the knowledge of god is born into each of us why would he allow people to never hear of him (isolated island etc)"

He told me that those people would ultimately not be held to any fault and would go to heaven. (he never addressed the born with moral thing)

I then asked him "if god would automatically save these isolated peoples, why would missionaries make it a point to go spread the 'good word' to these people if once they heard the message and decided to not believe they would be damned."

He answered with some BS about spreading love and kindness....left up to the person receiving the message to accept the truth ... blah blah blah...

Just sick.

Slowly building a blog at ~

EXC
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Loc wrote:We can't

Loc wrote:

We can't understand god's ways. He will judge them in a fair way.

Well that's what I got told with that question at school

This is the response for when someone doubts the faith because it seems Gawd is unjust.

But then they tell us, we need money for missionaries to send around the world and save those who don't know Christ. Economics trumps everything. So the answer will change depending on this eternal truth only.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

WillieBop
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Leeboy wrote: If one

Leeboy wrote:
If one doesn't believe in god, because god is unknown to them (in his xtian form), such as Eskimos (not so much today, but for the sake of argument, about 150 years ago when there were still Eskimos that didn't have any outside interference), or Africans, or any other "ignorant of god's love" tribe, do they automatically go to hell to be tortured, tormented or just plain screwed over, all because someone who created them did so in such a way that they would never hear about him, so they can't know him, and won't be saved? If they were to get baptised, wouldn't the water freeze? And just what WOULD you do for a Klondike Bar? Many questions, as of yet, all unanswered. Sorry for the run on sentences. I didn't want to break them all up. It's much too late for that.

There's this new exciting thing called the google, perhaps you should try it.

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In the Biblical view, they

In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.  They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.  It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.  He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.  The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.  If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20

The Doomed Soul
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If any one knew a damn thing

If any one knew a damn thing about geography, they would know that eskimos are indeed... in hell right now >.>

(interesting thought, if some one spent their entire life freezing their asses off above the arctic circle, do you really think a place of lava and fire would be unwelcome to them when dead? )

What Would Kharn Do?

Hambydammit
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I'm so glad we're letting unverified posts through more often these days.  Every once in a while, it's fun to get out the old "Whippin' Rod of Reason" and lay down a few strap marks.

Quote:
In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.

In the Biblical view, you say?  Which biblical view?  This is truly puzzling, because it's logically impossible.  Ten years after your supposed messiah supposedly rose from the dead, approximately 9/10's of the habitable land on the planet was not even remotely able to hear about your ridiculous little story.  You can't say it wasn't created that way because, well, God created it, didn't he?  Did he mess up?  Or did he mean for it to be that way?

So, when was the cutoff date for when people "should" have heard about Jesus?  A hundred years?  That was, what... 130 CE?  Not much in the way of global commerce then.  What about 500 years?  Marco Polo still hadn't visited the far east.  What about 1000 years?  Nope.  Still, Marco Polo wasn't born.  There was a great big continent called Asia.  Oh, and what about those poor Native Americans?  They had to wait until almost 1500 years later to hear about your all powerful lord and savior.

Are you blaming the Native Americans for choices they made when their ancestors crossed the Bering Strait... thousands of years before there was such a thing as a Hebrew?

Quote:
They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.

Why, yes!  You are!

You, my friend, have some real problems with that thinking cap of yours.

Quote:
It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.

Oh, really?

What was it you called him?  Creator?  So... um... he.... um... what's that word... "created" us.  And he knows everything, right?  Everything about everything?  So, he um... made us exactly how he wanted us to be made, right?

If he made us exactly how he wanted us made, then everything we've done is exactly what he wanted because he knows everything, right?  Since he can do anything he wants, if he created us so that we wouldn't do what he told us to do, then that's what he wanted.  He chose to make us that way, right?  If not, then he screwed up, or is insane.

Quote:
He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.

All Hail the Judge of All the Earth!!  God bless those red skinned savages.  If they didn't like the message mounted on the end of the Europeans' swords, it's their own fault for not having been born European!  God is merciful and just.  Allah be praised.

Oh... wait... you're talking about Yahweh, or Jesus, right?  I forgot, because, you know... that Allah dude promises some nasty shit if you don't believe in him.

Quote:
The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.

So, god punished millions of Native Americans... in hell... the worst possible punishment imaginable... because their ancestors, who also had never heard of Jesus because, well... it was thousands of years ago... did something that he didn't like. That punishment is good, because God made us exactly the way he wanted, and we (we who? ) made a choice  (which choice?  The apple?) that was exactly the choice that God knew we would make a trillion trillion years before he made earth... and so little red skinned babies are in hell, burning and screaming in agony, and in a trillion trillion years, they'll still be there, their little fingers being burned to the bone, over and over, their nerve endings miraculously functioning perfectly at every single second of their existence.  Their whole body is on fire... their hearts and lungs are filled with fire hotter than anything man can imagine.  Searing, blinding, awful pain.

And god loves you.

Quote:
If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

You are inexcusably ignorant, and a bigot.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

HisWillness
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Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20

Oh for fucks sake, is this yashualover from christianforums? How many times does someone have to tell me I'm just "pretending" to be an atheist? Holy shit.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

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Well thank you for that warm welcome.  It was better than I expected from a hyper religious forum like this one.  The "Whippin' Rod of Reason" must be part of my cure huh?  (Believe in God?  We can fix that.)  I’m glad it wasn’t the “water board of truth”.  It’s not the drowning sensation that gets me; it’s being punched in the stomach when I’m laying flat on my back and can’t breathe.  What could turn your guts inside out more than that?  Ok kidding off.  No really, I’m just glad I started this in the KEWK forum.  Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name.  Oops, that was supposed to be your line wasn’t it?

Quote:
Hamby wrote:

In the Biblical view, you say?  Which biblical view?

Accordig to what the Bible actually says.  I’m pretty certain it is not practical to discuss the veracity of scripture here.  The OP (Leeboy) asked a legitimate question and I was trying to give him an answer.  Now that I think about it though, if he really wanted or expected a biblical answer, why did he post it here and not on a Bible oriented board?  Maybe he is trying to justify his unbelief or he is more interested in Klondike Bars than salvation.

Quote:
Hamby wrote again:

What was it you called him?  Creator?  So... um... he.... um... what's that word... "created" us.  And he knows everything, right?  Everything about everything?  So, he um... made us exactly how he wanted us to be made, right?
If he made us exactly how he wanted us made, then everything we've done is exactly what he wanted because he knows everything, right?  Since he can do anything he wants, if he created us so that we wouldn't do what he told us to do, then that's what he wanted.  He chose to make us that way, right?  If not, then he screwed up, or is insane.

It is an interesting way you put that.  He created us so that we could choose to do what He told us, or not to do it.    We have the ability to choose as Adam did.  He did not make us so that we had to make the wrong choice.  Since He knows everything, He knew which way we would go.  We have accountability for our choice but He has responsibility as our creator.   Why create if He is just going to destroy it?  But we have gone against His word so how can we be reconciled with Him?  The wages of sin is death.  So His plan is that He would die in our place and offer us a second chance so to speak.  In effect to be born again.

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.  I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.  Same thing if evolution is true.  The only hope for us is that God exists and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

I say the original question about those who die having never heard the Gospel is a good one because I asked a similar one the first time I heard the message of Salvation.  It’s not just Eskimos and remote people of the earth that aren’t reached.  I was 18, living in California, before anybody explained it to me.  Even my best friend, who went to church all the time, when I asked him if I was going hell just said “YES”.  That was the only time we talked about religion.  So I asked, “If the message of salvation is true i.e. there is a god in heaven, men have rebelled and broken his laws, Christ died in our place and that by believing in Him we could be forgiven and receive eternal life and/or/but we go to hell for eternity if for any reason we don’t, if that is true and god also has billions of angels, why doesn’t he send them to tell everybody?”  The answer was that angels are not capable of giving first hand testimony of God’s grace because they have never sinned.

Quote:
Hamby again:

So, god punished millions of Native Americans... in hell... the worst possible punishment imaginable... because their ancestors, who also had never heard of Jesus because, well... it was thousands of years ago... did something that he didn't like. That punishment is good, because God made us exactly the way he wanted, and we (we who? ) made a choice  (which choice?  The apple?) that was exactly the choice that God knew we would make a trillion trillion years before he made earth... and so little red skinned babies are in hell, burning and screaming in agony, and in a trillion trillion years, they'll still be there, their little fingers being burned to the bone, over and over, their nerve endings miraculously functioning perfectly at every single second of their existence.  Their whole body is on fire... their hearts and lungs are filled with fire hotter than anything man can imagine.  Searing, blinding, awful pain.
And god loves you.

Yes and “He who made kittens, made snakes in the grass”.  Your difficulty believing God’s word is not with me.  I’m not God’s counselor.  I didn’t write the Bible, He did.  So your comment is not directed at me but Him.  That’s not what I consider a rational response.

Now that I have mentioned water boarding, I suppose that will come next.

Kevin R Brown
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Well thank you for that warm welcome.  It was better than I expected from a hyper religious forum like this one.  The "Whippin' Rod of Reason" must be part of my cure huh?  (Believe in God?  We can fix that.)  I’m glad it wasn’t the “water board of truth”.  It’s not the drowning sensation that gets me; it’s being punched in the stomach when I’m laying flat on my back and can’t breathe.  What could turn your guts inside out more than that?  Ok kidding off.  No really, I’m just glad I started this in the KEWK forum.  Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name.  Oops, that was supposed to be your line wasn’t it?

Quote:
Hamby wrote:

In the Biblical view, you say?  Which biblical view?

Accordig to what the Bible actually says.  I’m pretty certain it is not practical to discuss the veracity of scripture here.  The OP (Leeboy) asked a legitimate question and I was trying to give him an answer.  Now that I think about it though, if he really wanted or expected a biblical answer, why did he post it here and not on a Bible oriented board?  Maybe he is trying to justify his unbelief or he is more interested in Klondike Bars than salvation.

Quote:
Hamby wrote again:

What was it you called him?  Creator?  So... um... he.... um... what's that word... "created" us.  And he knows everything, right?  Everything about everything?  So, he um... made us exactly how he wanted us to be made, right?
If he made us exactly how he wanted us made, then everything we've done is exactly what he wanted because he knows everything, right?  Since he can do anything he wants, if he created us so that we wouldn't do what he told us to do, then that's what he wanted.  He chose to make us that way, right?  If not, then he screwed up, or is insane.

It is an interesting way you put that.  He created us so that we could choose to do what He told us, or not to do it.    We have the ability to choose as Adam did.  He did not make us so that we had to make the wrong choice.  Since He knows everything, He knew which way we would go.  We have accountability for our choice but He has responsibility as our creator.   Why create if He is just going to destroy it?  But we have gone against His word so how can we be reconciled with Him?  The wages of sin is death.  So His plan is that He would die in our place and offer us a second chance so to speak.  In effect to be born again.

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.  I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.  Same thing if evolution is true.  The only hope for us is that God exists and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

I say the original question about those who die having never heard the Gospel is a good one because I asked a similar one the first time I heard the message of Salvation.  It’s not just Eskimos and remote people of the earth that aren’t reached.  I was 18, living in California, before anybody explained it to me.  Even my best friend, who went to church all the time, when I asked him if I was going hell just said “YES”.  That was the only time we talked about religion.  So I asked, “If the message of salvation is true i.e. there is a god in heaven, men have rebelled and broken his laws, Christ died in our place and that by believing in Him we could be forgiven and receive eternal life and/or/but we go to hell for eternity if for any reason we don’t, if that is true and god also has billions of angels, why doesn’t he send them to tell everybody?”  The answer was that angels are not capable of giving first hand testimony of God’s grace because they have never sinned.

Quote:
Hamby again:

So, god punished millions of Native Americans... in hell... the worst possible punishment imaginable... because their ancestors, who also had never heard of Jesus because, well... it was thousands of years ago... did something that he didn't like. That punishment is good, because God made us exactly the way he wanted, and we (we who? ) made a choice  (which choice?  The apple?) that was exactly the choice that God knew we would make a trillion trillion years before he made earth... and so little red skinned babies are in hell, burning and screaming in agony, and in a trillion trillion years, they'll still be there, their little fingers being burned to the bone, over and over, their nerve endings miraculously functioning perfectly at every single second of their existence.  Their whole body is on fire... their hearts and lungs are filled with fire hotter than anything man can imagine.  Searing, blinding, awful pain.
And god loves you.

Yes and “He who made kittens, made snakes in the grass”.  Your difficulty believing God’s word is not with me.  I’m not God’s counselor.  I didn’t write the Bible, He did.  So your comment is not directed at me but Him.  That’s not what I consider a rational response.

Now that I have mentioned water boarding, I suppose that will come next.

My good sir,

Please provide evidence that the Earth is 6,000 years old and was created in 6 literal days. Feel free to collect your million dollars on your way out.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

latincanuck
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In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.  They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.  It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.  He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.  The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.  If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20

Ok so, they made the trek oh 10,000 years ago, or 8000 years before christ....so it's their ancestors fault? Because they decided to move to the isolated world 8000 years before christ and 6000 years before the jews even hear of god?? That's a retarded really, their ancestors are going to be more punished for something they did, thousands and thousands of years before ANYONE would hear of god? Oh boy what a great god, seems kinda retarded to me but hey god is man's creation we can't expect god to make perfect decisions when his creators are imperfect.

ronin-dog
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"  We have the ability to

"  We have the ability to choose as Adam did. "

Which is not at all. If God is all powerful and all knowing (and everything is part of God's plan), then anyone who does not know or does not believe in God is that way because it is part of God's plan. Every soul that goes to hell is because God decided that they should go there.

But enough with the pretense. God does not exist. The bible was written and edited by humans for their own purposes (oh, and I have read a large portion of it, it horifies and sickens me, perhaps you should read it again, cover to cover, not just the lovey parts).

The eskimos won't go to hell because it doesn't exist.

Sorry that you thrrew away evolution before someone could explain it to you properly.

Sorry that you managed to get brainwashed into religion. Hope you get better soon.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

Loc
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Well thank you for that warm welcome.  It was better than I expected from a hyper religious forum like this one.

I'm sure it was a pleasure.I wonder,why do you call it a religious forum? Unless atheism became a religion in the last 10hours while I wasn't looking.

It is an interesting way you put that.  He created us so that we could choose to do what He told us, or not to do it.    We have the ability to choose as Adam did.  He did not make us so that we had to make the wrong choice.  Since He knows everything, He knew which way we would go.  We have accountability for our choice but He has responsibility as our creator.   Why create if He is just going to destroy it?  But we have gone against His word so how can we be reconciled with Him?  The wages of sin is death.  So His plan is that He would die in our place and offer us a second chance so to speak.  In effect to be born again.

So are you saying god knows if we will go to hell when we are born and creates some of us for that purpose? You say we have the choice to choice to not do what he told us, but you forget that then he will punish us eternally.

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.  I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.  Same thing if evolution is true.  The only hope for us is that God exists and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

Wait..so if evolution is true the world is doomed, as opposed to if there is a god who will initiate armageddon and destroy the world? Please explain. With evolution, we have hope of colonising other planets, but with god the human race will be destroyed.

Yes and “He who made kittens, made snakes in the grass”.  Your difficulty believing God’s word is not with me.  I’m not God’s counselor.  I didn’t write the Bible, He did.  So your comment is not directed at me but Him.  That’s not what I consider a rational response.

You say god wrote the bible.Most of the christians I have seen here say that man wrote it under inspiration,that is why there are errors,mistranslations etc. Are you saying it is perfect?

I was raised in a truly non-religious home.  Religion of any sort was never discussed.  So the only lens through which I could view the world was the one imposed in the public school i.e. evolution, which I had absolutely discarded as viable, cohesive world view long before ever hearing about Jesus Christ for reasons I will perhaps give later.

Because you are a qualified biologist who can with impunity say that evolution is false right? I have no doubt you have dedicated your life to science of all kinds and are therefore the ultiamate authority on whether evolution is true.

/sarcasm

When the offer to accept God’s message was given to me, I thought if evolution is by any chance true, and I pray this little prayer with these guys that I had never met before, nor seen since, nothing is of course going to happen and the whole universe will eventually die its cold death and that will be that.  But if they are right and salvation is absolutely free because Christ took the whole penalty for my sin, I’d be a fool not to give it a try.  (I don’t remember if they mentioned anything about repentance, if they did, I didn’t pick up on it.  It was only about a 30 minute conversation and it was all new to me except the part about Adam and Eve, I had heard that story before. )  The result was that shortly after that (about an hour later) God confirmed His word in a way, that to me was real at the time.  It took about three more years to figure out the repentance part, but God is faithful, full of grace and truth and will do what is right whether we can wrap our little finite minds around it or not.

Oh my.This is too good. Could it be another instance of Pascal's Wager..why yes!Plus Argument from personal experience!

You should have said: If there was any chance that this god was the right one, I'd still be a fool to pick it,since I had even more chance of picking the wrong one.

Pascal’s Wager

Premises: You have everything to gain by believing, and everything to lose by not. So why not believe?/What if you’re wrong?

Problem: What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god? Pascal never indicated which god we should believe in. With thousands of them out there, they chances are choosing the right one are slim. If you are a christian and allah is the right choice, you’re going to have a small problem after death. Isn’t it more logical to choose none? It also assumes that god isn’t going to mind you just believing because you don’t want to go to hell, and doesn’t want true followers.

Argument from personal experience.

Premises: I know god’s real because I’ve felt him! I’ve seen miracles! How do you explain that?

Problem: I know god’s not real because he told me so! See, just you because you say something, don’t make it so. Christians will usually resort to the personal experience argument when all other arguments have dried up, because it is impossible to prove or disprove.  The thing is, many people have had the personal experience of seeing Elvis, getting abducted by aliens, and having the CIA secretly spy on them. Shall we now afford all these claims complete credibility?

As a former Christian, I’ve had personal experiences. However, when you remove the blind faith and indoctrination, you realize they are the product of highly emotional settings, usually combined with peer pressure. Everyone around me is talking in tongues! I better do something. The mind’s capability for imagination is vast, and if you want something to be badly enough, you will likely experience it.

That which can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

HisWillness
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Accordig to what the Bible actually says.  I’m pretty certain it is not practical to discuss the veracity of scripture here.

Not really. The bible tends to be discussed as a work of literature. It's probably best to check out Rook's material on the matter before getting into it with any of us.

Maybe he is trying to justify his unbelief or he is more interested in Klondike Bars than salvation.

"Justifying unbelief" is a weird idea, but the Klondike Bar is definitely more appealing than "salvation".

Things like God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and man’s free will are kind of a Gordian knot to theologians.

Yeah. There's a reason for that.

I have to keep things simple so I fall back to events like the one recorded in Genesis 18.  “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”  If the answer is ‘no’ then most likely we’re all screwed and have no hope.

Actually, it'll be fine. He's been doing "right" this whole time ... right? So we'll be just as screwed as we ever were. You can have hope independent of being screwed.

Same thing if evolution is true.

What? Why? If evolution is true, then we're the product of intense adaptation. What does that have to do with hope?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

EXC
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In the Biblical view, they were not created in a way that they would never hear about him.  They are living out choices that were made by their ancestors.  It is not the Creators responsibility to come down and correct every mistake that we make.  He has given us that option.  The judge of all the Earth will do what is right.  The ancestors will have a greater degree of accountability, but nowhere does the Bible indicate they, i.e. those living now, will ultimately go the heaven.  If they hear the message of salvation and some receive it, it is better than if the message is never heard and they all are lost.  Those who reject it are justly held to higher degree of accountability.

Knowledge of God is not “born into us”.  It says, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: “  Rom 1:20

RtB, you are contradicting every Christian missionary that ever existed. They all tell the heathens they are all lost souls in need of Jesus as Savior and the only way to be saved is believing in him and confessing him as lord. They all claim that every person that accepts the Gospel as truth is saved.

So now, you change the story when someone actually wants to understand rationally how Christian theology works. So, all you are saying is that all missionaries really accomplish is to send some people to hell, for hearing the gospel and rejecting it as BS.

So basically missionary lies about true Christian theology to get people to convert. They are sadistic bastards that will enjoy seeing those who reject their message thrown into the external torture of hell by a loving Gawd.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

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Kevin R Brown asked for evidence of 6000 yr. old earth and a six day creation. Answer: Genesis Chapter 1, page one of many reference bibles it says B.C. 4004. That number is not in the text of the scripture though. God doesn’t give the specific date. Actually I guess He does. What other date could he give it but day one, etc.? It must have been Adam or someone else that lost track of the time. Anyway the date is derived from adding up the ages of men from each generation that is given in the text until an event of a known date and then calculating backwards. While there may be no errors in the actual math, it may be the date is not accurate due to possible gaps in the geneology as there is in some cases in the bible. We are surely past the 6000 year mark though. The six days are numerated first day, second day etc. specifically mentioning the evening and the morning for each day of creation. That they were literal days is derived from Exodus 20:11 which tells us that the days of creation are a pattern for men to follow in keeping the Sabbath.   The pattern would be invalid if they were other than 6 days as we use the term day.  That is the evidence that the Bible gives which most people have read, but I don’t see what that has to do with the web site you link to. Creatures who think they can reduce their creator to a parlor magician haven’t thought very well. Or was that just a subtle invitation to depart?

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Latincanuck inquired about the sin and the fate of the ancestors of the said Eskimos.  Answer: In the year B.C. 2347 (the approximate year, see my previous post) eight people stepped off the ark. World population=8. Those 8 people had pretty good knowledge about the reality of creation and their creator. Genesis 9 details a covenant that He made with them. In Luke 12:48 the Lord teaches that to whom much is given shall much be required. Therefore those men, who participated in the rebellion of Genesis 11 (possibly the first generation after the flood) where God confounded their language, are held to more accountability than subsequent generations who split off and began to replenish the Earth as commanded in 9:1. This is the very thing that Paul speaks about in the verses following the one I referenced above.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. The point is that when they knew God they glorified Him not as God. If that is the case, is God unjust to not include them in the future kingdom that He will establish? It was not He that excluded them. They excluded themselves. People were saved then exactly as they are now, by hearing the world of the Lord and keeping it, believing it, obeying it. Concerning their offspring which neither know the Lord, nor have heard His word, Paul goes on to explain but I will leave it there. The Judge of all the earth will do what is right.

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Ronin-dog wrote, quoting

Ronin-dog wrote, quoting me:

Quote:
“We have the ability to choose as Adam did. "
Which is not at all. If God is all powerful and all knowing (and everything is part of God's plan), then anyone who does not know or does not believe in God is that way because it is part of God's plan. Every soul that goes to hell is because God decided that they should go there.

Essentially this is a view that is held among modern day Calvinist Christians.  In my opinion, it cannot be defeated from scripture but neither does it present the whole picture.  Man has a degree of self determination that has been given to him effecting both this life and his eternal fate.  Without that attribute the meaning of the test in the Garden of Eden is lost and we would have no capability to love God as He commands, “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”  (Deuteronomy 6:5)  Love must be from a free will or it is not love.  1 John 4:19 says we love Him because He first loved us.  John also writes:
1 John 4:9-10  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
If that is how He loves us, then our loving Him is the reasonable and rational response.

Ronin-dog also wrote:

Quote:
God does not exist. The bible was written and edited by humans for their own purposes

Please read Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, carefully noting the specific details mentioned and then compare that to the four accounts of the crucifixion, keeping in mind that the Romans were the first to use this form of execution (psalm 22:16).  This is the work of just 6 authors separated by hundreds of years.  Then ask yourself if it was your objective to fabricate a savior of the world, is this what you would have written?  If the bible isn’t true, Superman is a better story.  These are just two passages of hundreds in the Old Testament that present to the reader very detailed events in the life and purpose of the incarnation.  To what purpose did these 40 or more men write their various accounts?  Most of them died for their trouble.

Written by humans you say?  What descendent of an animal could ever conceive of such a thing as the Bible?  How did he progress from hunter/food gather to invent language at all, let alone words like repentance, forgiveness, sacrifice, atonement, propitiation?  Where would such concepts enter his mental processes?  There is only one answer – THEY DIDN’T.  They came by revelation from our creator.

No.  We have not raised ourselves to be just a little higher than the animals.  The Bible says we are made just a little lower than the angels and that God did set us over the works of His hands.

ronin-dog
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The bible can't be used as

The bible can't be used as evidence in itself (in relation to the age of the earth or anything else). It is just a book, there is no proof other than in the bible itself (circular argumentation) that it was devinely inspired. If you use books as proof you can prove anything. There are lots of books out there.

I really can't be bothered going into biblical debate yet again at the moment, look up some of Rook's articles.

"Written by humans you say?  What descendent of an animal could ever conceive of such a thing as the Bible?  How did he progress from hunter/food gather to invent language at all, let alone words like repentance, forgiveness, sacrifice, atonement, propitiation?  Where would such concepts enter his mental processes?  There is only one answer – THEY DIDN’T.  They came by revelation from our creator."

You haven't visited the fiction section lately, have you. Humans are very inventive. What descendent of an animal could? Humans (who actually are still animals by the way). Give me a few months and I could come up with something as inventive, crazy and badly written as the bible. Really, if god wrote it I would have thought he would have done a better job.

There is a very good video available called "the history of English" you should watch it, it does not deal with where language come from (there are plenty of books about that), but it does show where English came from and how it EVOLVED.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

Loc
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You wrote three posts citing

You wrote three posts citing nothing but the bible as evidence. Do you think that will convince anyone? If I write a book saying everything in the bible is false it must be right, since it's written down.Agree?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

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ronin-dog wrote: Quote:Sorry

ronin-dog wrote:

Quote:
Sorry that you threw away evolution before someone could explain it to you properly.
Sorry that you managed to get brainwashed into religion. Hope you get better soon.

Thanks for your concern.  I suppose that for my purposes only two facts about evolution were relevant.  That we supposedly evolved from animals and that ultimately, we came from nothing and would eventually return to the same state.  Those two assumptions I found were neither viable nor cohesive to the world and my life as I perceived them by the time I was a freshman in high school.  As a kid, I did not particularly enjoy books, sports or television, so besides the few hobbies and activities I did like, I spent a lot of time thinking.  When I thought about us evolving from animals and about human behavior it seemed we are completely unrelated.  Once you look below the surface of human behavior (which at times does appear to be animalistic) the thoughts and intents of the human heart are not at all like anything animals are remotely capable of.  On the negative side there are things like pride, jealously, deceitfulness and on the other side there is love, compassion and willingness to sacrifice.  While all of these are inconsistent with evolution, sacrifice totally blows it away on both of my two facts.

A recent example of the very act I thought about is the man Michael A. Monsoor.  A Navy Seal who absorbed the blast of grenade with his own body to save the lives of his team mates when he could have jumped clear and saved his own life.  That is in cohesive with evolution.  If you have a vision for that behavior from the lens of evolution, I’d like to see it.  Be sure to include both its origin and destination.  That is to say, regardless of his personal beliefs, how could Michael ultimately benefit from his sacrifice?  That is an extreme and uncommon example, but the concept of sacrifice is main stream in human society and you only have to give it a few minutes thought to come up numerous examples of your own.  My conclusion was that the majority of people live their lives as though there was in fact a final restitution for things that happen in the here and now, even though most of them lack the certainty of it.  That does not prove that there is such restitution, it only shows that evolution is not viable as a world view.

Ecclesiastes 11:1  Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.

I'm getting way behind.  I am sorry for that but this is about as fast as I can go.  It would be nice to get the email for verification.

Kevin R Brown
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Kevin R Brown asked for evidence of 6000 yr. old earth and a six day creation. Answer: Genesis Chapter 1, page one of many reference bibles it says B.C. 4004. That number is not in the text of the scripture though. God doesn’t give the specific date. Actually I guess He does. What other date could he give it but day one, etc.? It must have been Adam or someone else that lost track of the time. Anyway the date is derived from adding up the ages of men from each generation that is given in the text until an event of a known date and then calculating backwards. While there may be no errors in the actual math, it may be the date is not accurate due to possible gaps in the geneology as there is in some cases in the bible. We are surely past the 6000 year mark though. The six days are numerated first day, second day etc. specifically mentioning the evening and the morning for each day of creation. That they were literal days is derived from Exodus 20:11 which tells us that the days of creation are a pattern for men to follow in keeping the Sabbath.   The pattern would be invalid if they were other than 6 days as we use the term day.  That is the evidence that the Bible gives which most people have read, but I don’t see what that has to do with the web site you link to. Creatures who think they can reduce their creator to a parlor magician haven’t thought very well. Or was that just a subtle invitation to depart?

That was not compelling evidence tht the world was created in six literal days 6,000 years ago.

The site I linked you to will award you with one million dollars if you can prove within reasonable doubt a paranormal event (like the Earth's creation by God) to be factual.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940

ronin-dog
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I suggest that you look into

I suggest that you look into evolution again, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of it. It is not as simplistic as it seems to have been introduced to you as being.

That we came from nothing and will return to it has nothing to do with evolution. It is a fact that our bodies are made of matter which was inanimate and will be inanimate again when we die. This is regardless of whether you believe we have a soul or not, many christians believe in evolution but still believe in the soul.

That we evolved from animals: by definition we are animals, but I know (hope) that is not what you mean. The physical evidence if you look into it is not rationally deniable. However I think you are talking more about behaviour. If you watch enough animal behaviour (to see enough you may have to watch some documantaries) you will see a lot of "human" traits including pride, jealousy and deceitfulness, love, compassion and sacrifice (mother protecting young against predators etc).

As far as throwing yourself on a grenade... We are a group animal, adults in groups/packs/tribes will often risk their life against bad odds to protect the group (the gene pool). Of course in nature we don't have anything as definate as grenades in ensuring death, but you have to extrapolate.

A lot of human behaviour has already been expained in evolutionary terms, but it has also been shown that we are such a complex animal that not all of our behaviour can be described as such. I believe that our brain is such a complex system that it only takes small changes in the "wiring" (which could even be developmental rather than genetic) to give a vast difference in our behaviour.

Once again, even though I don't believe in God, there are many who do believe in God who still believe in evolution.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

pauljohntheskeptic
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Kevin R Brown asked for evidence of 6000 yr. old earth and a six day creation. Answer: Genesis Chapter 1, page one of many reference bibles it says B.C. 4004. That number is not in the text of the scripture though. God doesn’t give the specific date. Actually I guess He does. What other date could he give it but day one, etc.? It must have been Adam or someone else that lost track of the time. Anyway the date is derived from adding up the ages of men from each generation that is given in the text until an event of a known date and then calculating backwards. While there may be no errors in the actual math, it may be the date is not accurate due to possible gaps in the geneology as there is in some cases in the bible. We are surely past the 6000 year mark though. The six days are numerated first day, second day etc. specifically mentioning the evening and the morning for each day of creation. That they were literal days is derived from Exodus 20:11 which tells us that the days of creation are a pattern for men to follow in keeping the Sabbath.   The pattern would be invalid if they were other than 6 days as we use the term day.

I do hope you learn something from this site by trying to be objective and using your mind. The 6000 year old Earth plus or minus a few hundred years has many small little problems. As for example how do you explain that Jericho dates to about 7000 BCE. This is about 3000 years before your estimated date of creation. I do understand where the little red dates come from in my assortment of Bibles, I have 6 of various translations plus 60 more on CD. I am an Ex-Christian with 10 years of religious school education and a Graduate Degree from a Jesuit University. I know multiple versions of the Bible and have read it through many times.

I know the argument that God could have created it all to appear to be old and how would we know. Of course the Flying Spaghetti Monster could have done the same as well including your Christian beliefs that were added for his entertainment, (the FSM not your God Yahweh).

You also brought forth the view Noah's family of 8 repopulated the World starting in 2347 BCE. Interesting idea but extremely troublesome as it seems the Sumerians were living in Mesopotamia at that time and had many cities. I'd like to see you explain away the Akkadian Empire under Sargon of Akkad who reigned from 2270 to 2215 BCE not 70 years after your flood.

See any of these books: Ancient Iraq by George Roux or Mesopotamia The Invention of the City By Gwendolyn Leick

or visit this web site: http://www.ancientscripts.com/sumerian.html

or this one: http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/

which is a link to the Electronic versions of Sumerian Literature at Oxford University.

As there are many artifacts from this period including cuneiform tablets this evidence would seem to somewhat discredit the idea the world was repopulated in 50 years or less.

Hope you get an approved login and spend time learning objectively from your visits.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

pauljohntheskeptic
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Please read Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, carefully noting the specific details mentioned and then compare that to the four accounts of the crucifixion, keeping in mind that the Romans were the first to use this form of execution (psalm 22:16).

In reading your other posts you seem to have some confusion that needs some slight correction. You appear to be reading in between the lines in a KJV version of the Bible in Psalm 22:16. In the Hebrew Bible version it says in verse 17 equivalent to your verse 16 "17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet." Hmm, they don't seem to support crucifixion here. In my Catholic Version of Douay-Rheims it is actually in Psalm 21:17, "17 For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet." Neither has support for your poorly translated KJV version. Perhaps the translators have misled you here.

As to Isaiah 53, you are misinterpreting Jesus to be the suffering servant where it is very clear it is Israel, even in my PTL KJV Bible. See Isaiah 49:3 in KJV, "And said unto me, Thou art my servant O Israel, in whom I will be glorified." Isaiah 50 and 52:13 to 53:12 details this suffering as a continuation of Isaiah's comments. Here I side with the Jews that this is not about Jesus but is about them as a people.

As the KJV is a poor translation of the Bible this perhaps is what led you astray into believing Jesus was predicted to suffer based on these Bible verses. If you but open your mind to the reality of the actual words you may see where your errors are located. Generally the JPS version of the Hebrew Bible also known as the Masoretic Text is more accurate. Or the Catholic-Douay-Rheims especially for NT.

Links:JPS Hebrew Bible in English- http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible- http://www.drbo.org/

Hope this helps you gain knowledge that may help correct your errors. As to the 4 contradictory accounts of the Roman execution of Jesus I'll save that for another day.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

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Loc asked why I called this

Loc asked why I called this a religious forum.  (post 14)  Good catch.  I was concerned that would slip by.  Yes atheists are religious just like everybody else.  You do don’t think it takes great faith to deny the existence of God?  Do you know everything?  Are you everywhere?  Then you can’t possibly know there is no God.  It may be that He is waiting in that vast sphere of knowledge that is presently unknown to you.  You think just because an atheist invokes science he is not religious?

How about this statement:  “The Cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be”?  That is from the opening scene in Carl Sagan’s ‘Cosmos’ series on PBS.  That statement is not based on science by any definition.  It is his personal belief and nothing more, a purely religious statement.  It is by default the belief of all evolutionists.  (We need to explore these ideas about eternity and infinity.)

At best a person could be agnostic.  In fact we are all born agnostic.  But an agnostic that becomes comfortable and fatalistic in his ignorance is better termed an ignoramus which has essentially the same meaning taken from Latin rather than Greek but lacks the air of intellectualism because he has abandoned the pursuit of knowing God.  The same could be said of the professing Christian who becomes slack.
By teaching evolution is public school, it is in fact the state religion!

Loc

Quote:
Because you are a qualified biologist who can with impunity say that evolution is false right? I have no doubt you have dedicated your life to science of all kinds and are therefore the ultimate authority on whether evolution is true.
/sarcasm

No.  However, I can furnish a list of several men, whom you probably would deem qualified, who have rejected evolution and believe the bible’s account of the 6 day creation.  Would that help?  Science is no more than people.  They make mistakes, they lie, they sell out for grants and jobs and they disagree among themselves.  All of that is just as true of religious types.  To put your trust in men is what the Lord of us called building your house on sand.  “And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”  (Mathew 7)  But if you hear the word of the Lord and do what He says, that is building on a rock.

Quote:
You wrote three posts citing nothing but the bible as evidence. Do you think that will convince anyone? If I write a book saying everything in the bible is false it must be right, since it's written down.Agree?

I have spent enough time on message boards to know that it is extremely unlikely that anyone is persuaded to change their opinion.  I have found that they are both entertaining and informative and an excellent way to test the strength of your ideas.  This is my first go at a non Christian forum.  I have purposely limited my responses to what the bible says and personal experience.  In lurking around here before posting anything it seemed the bible is not being adequately represented.  Seeing that I have not been given a password as yet, I’m beginning to suspect that it is more due to censorship than mere moderating.

It is my opinion that there is no other evidence needed than the bible anyway.  I read about that stuff but I am no expert and it would be pointless to discuss the distance to the moon, what it is made of, river sediments in the ocean, Niagara Falls, soft tissue found in T Rex bones that should have fossilized, symbiotic relationships, ecosystems that are so interdependent on the various life forms that inhabit it they could not have appeared independently, the mathematical impossibility of DNA randomly producing life, the molecular structure of granite, the speed of light, finite universe, etc., etc.  I say so what.

Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Either that statement is true or it is not.  That is all that matters.

I look forward to continuing this discussion.

ronin-dog
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If you won't believe anything but the bible you are beyond help

But let's continue for now (till I get boerd of this).

You obviusly don't understand what a religion is. Let's go to the Oxford English Dictionary:

1) the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship

2) the expression of this in worship

3) a particular system of faith and worship

4) life under monastic vows (the way of religion)

Atheism is not a religion, it simply means individuals who don't believe in gods.

“The Cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be” is not the default belief of evolutionists. They believe in evolution because of the countless evidence in favour of it. As I already stated, many religious folk believe in evolution as well.

An agnositc is someone who is undecided because they don't feel they have enough evidence, not because they are ignorant. Generally they have realised that religion is false but are undecided about god, as you said we don't know everything.

Evolution is not a religion, it is a science. ...sigh... people like you who refuse to actually think outside of their religious dogma are very difficult to deal with. I am afraid it is you who are the ignoramus, ignoring thousands of years of actual knowledge and progress.

There is no great science conspiracy. People are more likely to sell out their research for blind religious belief than anything else.

"Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Either that statement is true or it is not.  That is all that matters."
It is not true.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

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I realized that was a very

I realized that was a very bad post shortly after I left the computer.  Put myself right in a box.  I used Wikipedia for a definition.  First mistake.

Quote:
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

From that, atheists could be called religious.  It is a supernatural claim to say there are no gods or there is no God.

How could Sagan’s statement not be the default belief of anyone who believes evolution regardless what other beliefs they have?  How could there be a god or gods that exist outside of the cosmos (time, space and matter) and not be the God of the Bible who is all powerful and created everything?  If they are not outside the cosmos, they are only another part of it and exist in some state of constant change.  The God of the Bible, who does not change, is the only possible exception to the statement.  It also seems to me that if evolution is true then infinity does not exist.  That is to say there isn’t anything the exists that is infinite.

There are those who profess to be Christians and think that He used evolution as a means of creation but it is a contradiction of what the bible says.  John 5:47 says “if you believe not Moses writings, how can you believe my words?”  Jesus is saying that to believe in Him you have to also believe Moses.  They are the same source and authority.

I did look at a few of Rook’s articles before I posted anything.  I don’t see how the Gospels, for instance, could be written as late as he claims and have had any impact at all.

Louis_Cypher
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Yup

The Doomed Soul wrote:

If any one knew a damn thing about geography, they would know that eskimos are indeed... in hell right now >.>

(interesting thought, if some one spent their entire life freezing their asses off above the arctic circle, do you really think a place of lava and fire would be unwelcome to them when dead? )

There is an anecdotal tale of a first encounter between a Christian missionary and a band of Inuit people...

It seems that after the young fellow delivered his good news, much to his chagrin, the native folk got all excited and happy about the possibility of going someplace WARM...

LC >;-}>

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.

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I woke up this morning

I woke up this morning thinking about this and I never realized what a black hole believing the bible really is.  That a person would eventually get to a point of believing it to the exclusion of all other evidence of any sort and the only way to be dissuaded is to prove the bible false by using the bible itself.  That is pathetic.  How did I let this happen to me?  Not only that, if that wasn’t enough, I have become a threat to all humanity by trying to inflict my narrow, bigoted, sanctimonious views on the rest of the world by voting to stop abortion, opposing gay rights and all that other stuff.  How much sicker can a mind get?  At least Jim Jones just led his flock off to kill themselves, not infect the whole world.  What a saint he was.

Now my eyes are open.  Maybe the cure is going to work, but let’s not get our hopes up just yet.  I still have to extricate myself and that won’t be easy.  It might take weeks, but I didn’t get into this overnight did I?  I could try cold turkey, but that might cause more problems down the road and I would always be vulnerable to relapse when my Christians friends try to talk me out of it.  I better take it slow and not talk to anyone about this until I know I’m completely cured, if that is even possible.  If it works then I can stand on my front porch and drink beer all summer like my neighbor across the street.  We might even become friends.  Maybe I’ll start smoking again too.  Well I don’t know he doesn’t look all that healthy to me.

What’s the next step in my cure?  We did the whippin rod of reason, had some discussion, which really helped.  Thank you to everyone who has participated thus far.  I know I haven’t responded to most of you but you have brought some very good ideas to my attention.  I will try to incorporate as many as I can in the next phase.  What I propose, if the moderators and you will indulge me a little further, is to take a chair in the middle of the room and spill my guts.  I know that doesn’t sound too exciting, but I’m trying to avoid the water board as long as possible.  And maybe there will be some benefit for you guys too.  You need to understand how this works if you are going to turn others from becoming like me.

Loc
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Loc asked why I called this a religious forum.  (post 14)  Good catch.  I was concerned that would slip by.  Yes atheists are religious just like everybody else.  You do don’t think it takes great faith to deny the existence of God?  Do you know everything?  Are you everywhere?  Then you can’t possibly know there is no God.  It may be that He is waiting in that vast sphere of knowledge that is presently unknown to you.  You think just because an atheist invokes science he is not religious?

.Argument from ignorance

Premises: Atheism is not a logical position to hold, because to say you know there is no god, you would have to be all-present and knowing. You would have to be god.

Problem: There are several flaws here. Firstly, not many atheists will claim to know beyond a doubt there is no god. It is impossible to prove a negative. They have no belief in one.

Secondly, it is just as impossible for a theist to prove there is a god without ultimate knowledge. More so, since the burden of proof rests with them.

Thirdly, by this reasoning, every god and imaginary creature ever created must exist, since you can’t prove it false. This means yahweh is not the only god, and christianity is negated.

Just because you can’t prove something false, doesn’t mean it’s true.

Atheism is a religion/ atheists have faith.

Premises: Exactly what it says in the title

Problem: Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color, off is a tv channel, and not playing football is a sport. It is the lack of belief. The Cambridge online dictionary defines religion as  “the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship.’’

An atheist has neither belief in any gods, nor worships any. Religion can also be defined as “a set of rituals and ceremonies pertaining to a deity.” Again, this is not demonstrated in the atheist’s life.

I will assume the Christian reader does not believe in Thor. Is you’re a-Thorism a religion? Do you call yourself a follower of the ‘There is no Thor faith’, and go to Thor unbelief church? No.

Seriously, no.just no.

At best a person could be agnostic.  In fact we are all born agnostic.  But an agnostic that becomes comfortable and fatalistic in his ignorance is better termed an ignoramus which has essentially the same meaning taken from Latin rather than Greek but lacks the air of intellectualism because he has abandoned the pursuit of knowing God.  The same could be said of the professing Christian who becomes slack.
By teaching evolution is public school, it is in fact the state religion!

People are born atheist.I think you're confusig terms. Oh, I'm guessing Newton's works on physics are also state relgion.Please explain how evolution is religion.

No.  However, I can furnish a list of several men, whom you probably would deem qualified, who have rejected evolution and believe the bible’s account of the 6 day creation.

I'm sure you can find several qualified people who will accept anything if you try hard enough.Are you saying that because a minority reject it that makes it true?

Seeing that I have not been given a password as yet, I’m beginning to suspect that it is more due to censorship than mere moderating.

Sorry about that,but I can testify far denser people than you have joined. Contary to what theists like to think, we don't censor people.This is a debate forum.

It is my opinion that there is no other evidence needed than the bible anyway.

It is my opinion that there is no other evidence needed than the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster anyway. WHY WON'T YOU BELIEVE ME!!!

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

ronin-dog
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wow...

Dear Read the Bible... that was a big about face. At first I thought you were being sarcastic, but then I realized that you could very well be sincere. I'm going to treat it as if you are because if you are then it is worth us being gentle with you, especially at this stage. If you are someone who would like help, then you are worth helping.

I am just going to address atheism as religion again, just to clarify:

"A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction."

Atheism means the lack of a belief in a god/gods. Even though that can be arguably defined as a belief, there is no set of beliefs or practices, there is no prayer, ritual, law, tradition. We are just a group of people talking about a common interest. No more religious than a group of people talking about ferrari's.

Don't be too hard on yourself, the majority of the world is religious to some extent. There is no rush, just mull it over, it takes time for most people to come to full acceptance. Some don't want to let go of the god idea fully and stay deists or agnostics. Not mentioning it to people who will try to beat you back into submission is probably a good thing for now.

Don't take up drinking to excess and smoking, you only have one life... look after it.

I'll be happy to continue discussions with you as long as you remain sincere.

Ronin

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

Loc
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ronin-dog wrote:

Dear Read the Bible... that was a big about face. At first I thought you were being sarcastic, but then I realized that you could very well be sincere. I'm going to treat it as if you are because if you are then it is worth us being gentle with you, especially at this stage. If you are someone who would like help, then you are worth helping.

I wasn't sure either ,but when he got to the mods pulling his guts out, I was pretty sure it was sarcasm.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

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The post was sincere and an

Yesterday was a revelation of how you perceive people like me.  I reached a whole new understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:19:  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Co 15:14-22  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Even though I am open minded, there’s not much that can be done for me.  How can I give up the certainty of eternal life in exchange for nothing?  Came from nothing / go to nothing.  On the other hand truth trumps fiction every time.  We must pursue truth above all else.

Loc
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Yesterday was a revelation of how you perceive people like me.  I reached a whole new understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:19:  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Hey how's that high horse? We were people like you.I'm not sure how you think we perceive you,but we thought just like you.We know were you're coming from.

Even though I am open minded, there’s not much that can be done for me.  How can I give up the certainty of eternal life in exchange for nothing?  Came from nothing / go to nothing.  On the other hand truth trumps fiction every time.  We must pursue truth above all else.

What is it with pascal's wager lately? The certainity of eternal life? Seems to be if you have undeniable proof of this you should be sharing it.But you don't. You just think it's fact. Truth is, there's as much chance that vallaha,allah's paradise, or sto'vo'kor are the afterlifes as the christian heaven. If allah's the true god, you're gona be so screwed.

Yea,we like the truth.That's why we do this.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

Leeboy
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I was an xtian once

I was a christian once. I didn't feel the rush you said you did, RtB, but I genuinely believed. Then I started asking questions. I looked all around and my faith slipped away. I prayed constantly to have my faith restored, but to no avail. Now I'm glad it wasn't. I'm free from worrying about pissing off somebody in the sky. I don't worry about going to hell because I gossiped or something like that. If you do go atheist, good for you! You may feel scared that God will smite you, but you soon get over it. If you go back to religion, then you haven't lost anything. I myself am happy because I have decided to be nice to people just to be nice, not for fear of punishment. Take it easy and decide for yourself. Good luck!

ronin-dog
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truth trumps fiction every time

You got that right. That is why I can never be a christian (or member of any other faith I have ever heard of).

I don't know why you converted. As you said, you weren't exposed for long, although some people can be quite charismatic and persuasive. I guess you must have been in a susceptable frame of mind. Once you are there, many people brainwash themselves (self delusion). Why this happens is one of the big mysteries.

I have always been an atheist. I went to a bible camp once to keep a friend company when I was about 12. It was fun, mostly. I remember one of the priests (I don't actually know if he was an actual priest or not) taking me aside when he found out that I didn't believe, he was very persuasive (especially as an authority figure talking to a child). I don't remember what was said, but I ended up renouncing my sins and accepting jesus into my heart or something. But it only lasted about 10 minutes... Once I had a chance to think I found myself wondering, what the hell happened there? How did he convince me into momentarily agreeing with him? Just a good salesmen I guess.

Have you really read the bible? OT and all, not just the bits you are refered to?

I really find it mindblowing that someone could read that and accept it as truth.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

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Truth trumps fiction every

Truth trumps fiction every time.

Quote:
You got that right. That is why I can never be a Christian (or member of any other faith I have ever heard of).

And that is why I can never change from being one.

Quote:
I don't know why you converted. As you said, you weren't exposed for long, although some people can be quite charismatic and persuasive. I guess you must have been in a susceptible frame of mind. Once you are there, many people brainwash themselves (self delusion). Why this happens is one of the big mysteries.

“I don't know why you converted.”  I would like to suggest that you read a few Christian biographies or at least on line articles.  Martin Luther is a good one.  Conversion is the result of a life changing encounter with the Creator through the truth of His word.

“You must have been in a susceptible frame of mind.”  If you only knew.  The mystery to me is how people can accept evolution as a world view.  I was never going to be ‘happy’ living in a magilum world that is the product of nothing but time and chance that will produce nothing but death because nobody makes it out alive.  Nothing endures, it’s all for naught.  That concept really affected me, totally negative.  I could neither accept it, nor did I have an alternative world view.  But I had concluded that there must be life beyond the grave that is in every sense a continuation of this present life.  Human behavior, all humanity, demands that it must be so.  Somewhere, somehow there has got to be a way to eternal life.  These guys are telling me they think they have found it; so I’m certainly willing to give it a try.  Susceptible?  Absolutely, anything is better than evolution.  But there is still that nagging little issue; is it true?  In my experience, the God of love and truth validated their testimony personally and much latter confirmed it through His written word when I finally started to read the bible.

“Once you are there, many people brainwash themselves”.  You might think so, but read the rest of the story.  The next morning I started thinking about it.  They didn’t give me any contact information.  I don’t know any Christians except that one guy that said I was going to hell.  I wasn’t about to go walking into a church.    What am I supposed to do?  There was no mention of reading the bible, living for God or anything like that.  So I prayed something to the effect that if you (Lord) want me to serve you that you call me again, later, and I continued on the same path I had been on as if nothing had happened for three and a half more years.  13 months of that was spent in Korea, in the Army.  I came home with a very nasty case of drug addiction.  I was living in a VW bus and I had a daily drug habit that was never going to go away.  On Memorial Day 1973, in the middle of the afternoon, I was sitting in the bus wondering if I was ever going to get over this and do something with my life.  The answer came back, “NO”.  I could quit, sure.  I’d done that several times, but it always came back.  Quitting wasn’t the solution; I needed to be free of it.

I was completely alone that whole day.  I had hardly ever spoken to anyone about the experience I had at 18.  What was there to tell?  But I knew what happened.  This was the moment the Lord was waiting for.  I started out with pretty much the same prayer but I added the request to be set free from the habit.  This is a little hard to explain because of the reaction it will draw, but there was a voice, not audible, but like a thought that was not my thought and it said that if I got rid of all the drug related stuff I had with me, I would be free.  So that is what I did.  Some of it was of sentimental value, some of it monetary, but I pitched it all and that was it, the desire for it never came back.

Amazingly, the next day after work, I was walking downtown on a very familiar street, and I saw a little hand painted sign that was hung on a second story window I had never noticed before.  It said “Tree of Life Coffeehouse”.  I could not remember what ‘tree of life’ meant, but it sounded familiar.  Within minutes, I had Christian friends.

Loc
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Truth trumps fiction every time.

Quote:
You got that right. That is why I can never be a Christian (or member of any other faith I have ever heard of).

And that is why I can never change from being one.

I'm sure that's what every thiest says.Amazing how they all have the truth.

“You must have been in a susceptible frame of mind.”  If you only knew.  The mystery to me is how people can accept evolution as a world view.  I was never going to be ‘happy’ living in a magilum world that is the product of nothing but time and chance that will produce nothing but death because nobody makes it out alive.  Nothing endures, it’s all for naught.  That concept really affected me, totally negative.  I could neither accept it, nor did I have an alternative world view.  But I had concluded that there must be life beyond the grave that is in every sense a continuation of this present life.  Human behavior, all humanity, demands that it must be so.  Somewhere, somehow there has got to be a way to eternal life.  These guys are telling me they think they have found it; so I’m certainly willing to give it a try.  Susceptible?  Absolutely, anything is better than evolution.  But there is still that nagging little issue; is it true?  In my experience, the God of love and truth validated their testimony personally and much latter confirmed it through His written word when I finally started to read the bible.

You have a misunderstanding of evolution.It is a scientific principle, not a world view.It's like you saying,'I couldn't accpet gravity as a world view.It got me down(literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

If you've looked around here you'll see we are all generally very happy.More so than when we were christian.I couldn't imagine being happy now as a christian.Knowing the only reason I am here is the product of some being who decided to create me on a whim and will torture me if I don't love him.That after death many of my loved ones and friends will be burning.And that one day that being will come back and destroy this earth after much suffering.

Now that's depressing.

.

You might think so, but read the rest of the story.  The next morning I started thinking about it.  They didn’t give me any contact information.  I don’t know any Christians except that one guy that said I was going to hell.  I wasn’t about to go walking into a church.    What am I supposed to do?  There was no mention of reading the bible, living for God or anything like that.  So I prayed something to the effect that if you (Lord) want me to serve you that you call me again, later, and I continued on the same path I had been on as if nothing had happened for three and a half more years.  13 months of that was spent in Korea, in the Army.  I came home with a very nasty case of drug addiction.  I was living in a VW bus and I had a daily drug habit that was never going to go away.  On Memorial Day 1973, in the middle of the afternoon, I was sitting in the bus wondering if I was ever going to get over this and do something with my life.  The answer came back, “NO”.  I could quit, sure.  I’d done that several times, but it always came back.  Quitting wasn’t the solution; I needed to be free of it.

I was completely alone that whole day.  I had hardly ever spoken to anyone about the experience I had at 18.  What was there to tell?  But I knew what happened.  This was the moment the Lord was waiting for.  I started out with pretty much the same prayer but I added the request to be set free from the habit.  This is a little hard to explain because of the reaction it will draw, but there was a voice, not audible, but like a thought that was not my thought and it said that if I got rid of all the drug related stuff I had with me, I would be free.  So that is what I did.  Some of it was of sentimental value, some of it monetary, but I pitched it all and that was it, the desire for it never came back.

Amazingly, the next day after work, I was walking downtown on a very familiar street, and I saw a little hand painted sign that was hung on a second story window I had never noticed before.  It said “Tree of Life Coffeehouse”.  I could not remember what ‘tree of life’ meant, but it sounded familiar.  Within minutes, I had Christian friends.

That was a really long Argument from Personal Experience.A very nice one I will admit,but still devoid of any actual evidence.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

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Quote:
Quote:
Truth trumps fiction every time.

Ronin-dog replied:
Quote:

You got that right. That is why I can never be a Christian (or member of any other faith I have ever heard of).

After which RTB wrote:
Quote:
And that is why I can never change from being one.

To which Loc replies:
Quote:
I'm sure that's what every theist says. Amazing how they all have the truth.

Josh Billings once said “As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.”
Someone else said that the biggest obstacle to receiving the truth is thinking that you already have it.

Quote:
You have a misunderstanding of evolution. It is a scientific principle, not a world view. It's like you saying, 'I couldn't accept gravity as a world view. It got me down (literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

It is peddled as science, but in fact is no more scientific than Carl Sagan’s statement mentioned above about the cosmos being all there ever was, is or will be.  Imagination, nothing more.

ronin-dog
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Sounds like you had a hard life.

Thanks for your story. It is interesting.

Loc is right, evolution is not a world view. I don't believe it is all for naught, it is true that the universe does not care (because it is not sentient), but we are alive and that is an amazing thing. We should cherish our one life. The atheist viewpoint is not negative, it is neutral. It is up to us as individuals to make it positive, and I don't find that hard to do in such an amazing world.

It does not sound like you had one chance encounter, but were searching for something for a long time. If you used religion as a tool to help yourself out of the "gutter" then there is no doubt that it was a good tool for you to use at the time. But there was nothing miraculous about it. You actually did it by yourself, with human support. The voice was just part of your psyche.

I stand by what I said about the bible earlier.

Thanks again for opening up and telling your story.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

HisWillness
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From that, atheists could be called religious.  It is a supernatural claim to say there are no gods or there is no God.

But saying "there is only the natural" would not be religious. The only time you get statements like "there are no gods" is when faced with someone who claims that there are. The same would be true of unicorns or leprechans if people actually started to take them seriously. The answer is "probably not". Not "I'm sure 100% that there are no leprechans/unicorns/Easter bunnies," but probably not.

In the absence of supernatural claims, the atheist can only be making claims about the natural world. There is no supernatural without a supernaturalist to invent and describe it.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

HisWillness
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How could I have been brainwashed by two guys that looked the same age I was in just thirty minutes into make a lifelong change in my beliefs about the certainty of Jesus Christ and the hope of eternal salvation?

Apparently very easily.

Even though I am open minded, there’s not much that can be done for me.  How can I give up the certainty of eternal life in exchange for nothing?  Came from nothing / go to nothing.

It would be difficult, I'm sure. It's not the mission of this group to "de-convert" you. You can think what you like. The name is "Rational Responders", and that's what we do.

On the other hand truth trumps fiction every time.  We must pursue truth above all else.

Really? Because then you'd want to use the most successful method for differentiating between reality and fantasy. That would be the scientific method. It's the most successful and reliable way to understand truth thus far.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence

shikko
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Josh Billings once said “As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.”
Someone else said that the biggest obstacle to receiving the truth is thinking that you already have it.

I'm sorry, I've lost track: are you criticizing your position or ours, here?  Because it reads like you're admitting since you already feel you have the truth about god, you aren't open to contradicting evidence.  Those quotes support skepticism, not faith.

I can't think of a single skeptic here that, if given reliable evidence of the existence of anything (be it ghosts, ESP, the Loch Ness Monster, angels, another physical force, the christian god or Atlantis), wouldn't then believe that this thing didn't exist.

Conversely, what would it take for you to stop believing?  What evidence would sway you from your position that the bible is true, and the god of the bible exists?  Is such a state of affairs even possible?

Quote:

Quote:
You have a misunderstanding of evolution. It is a scientific principle, not a world view. It's like you saying, 'I couldn't accept gravity as a world view. It got me down (literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

It is peddled as science, but in fact is no more scientific than Carl Sagan’s statement mentioned above about the cosmos being all there ever was, is or will be.  Imagination, nothing more.

Can you do me a favour and explain your position on science?  What is it?  How does it work?  I think your reponse will help in illustrating the difference between your position and our position.

--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.

Loc
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Read the Bible wrote: It is

It is peddled as science, but in fact is no more scientific than Carl Sagan’s statement mentioned above about the cosmos being all there ever was, is or will be.  Imagination, nothing more.

Could you tell me your scientific qualifications,since you feel in a position to reject a principle accepted by the scientific community for over a century,and still held despite vigorous testing.It's an honest question.

Or here is another question.How many non-biased(eg not Lee Strobel) books have you read on evolution?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

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Loc wrote:Quote:You have a

Loc wrote:

Quote:
You have a misunderstanding of evolution. It is a scientific principle, not a world view. It's like you saying, 'I couldn't accept gravity as a world view. It got me down (literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

Tell me, when did evolution progress from “theory” to “scientific principle”?  http://www.grisda.org/origins/04004.htm

The point of my statement about accepting evolution as a world view is not so much about evolution itself.  It is the total despair that accompanies it.  If life originated without purpose, then it still has no purpose.  Life has no meaning other than whatever the individual or a society ascribes to it but ultimately results in utter destruction regardless of anything that anybody does.  It totally destroys any possible motivation to live.  Contrary to evolution, but in agreement with the bible, Ronin-dog says, “We should cherish our one life”.  Naturally, and contrary to evolution/atheism, we do cherish our own life but most atheists (in agreement with evolution) devalue another human’s life and fully support abortion.  If my life is to be cherished, why isn’t the unborn child’s?  If my life is only cherished by me and I find it to be too much of a burden, as many do, why not just do what we do to animals and purposely end it?  It is also coming to the point where society will make that decision for us.  As long as a person is healthy and productive or potentially productive to society they can live.  If they become ill and a burden, they should be killed.

Regardless of what evolution is, theory or principle, there is necessarily a world view that accompanies it.  It is not neutral.  It strips humanity of everything.  It is a living death, a magilum planet.  You have no legitimate reason to strive for anything.  Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in school.  And why should anybody care?  Let’s just keep dancing.  Ashes, ashes, we all fall down.  There is no anchor for any belief system (Heb 6:19), no solid Rock on which to build for the future (1Co 10:4; Psalm 61:2).

Peggy Lee was right on for evolution:

Quote:

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

Loc
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Loc wrote:

Quote:
You have a misunderstanding of evolution. It is a scientific principle, not a world view. It's like you saying, 'I couldn't accept gravity as a world view. It got me down (literally). I felt so negative I could never float away."

Tell me, when did evolution progress from “theory” to “scientific principle”?  http://www.grisda.org/origins/04004.htm

Evolution is just a theory.

Problem: So is gravity. Now go fly away. The word theory has different meanings in laymen and scientific contexts. In science it is something that has been tested and has evidence supporting it.

Example: The Theory of Gravity, Atomic Cell Theory

In science, something can be both theory and fact.

I suppose you do not believe in the germ theoro of disease either.In science, a theory is generally held to be something that is for all intents  and purposes true. Yes,there are scientific laws,but if I remember right these are things that can be expressed in mathematical forumala. Ie,Newton's second law of motion.

$\vec{F} = \frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d}t}(m \vec{v})$

Because evolution cannot(to the best of my knowledge) be expressed in such a way,it would simply not be appropriate to express it as a law.(and I have read they are sometimes expressed as Newton's Theories) However,I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find a significant number of qualified scientists who did not accept it.

The point of my statement about accepting evolution as a world view is not so much about evolution itself.  It is the total despair that accompanies it.  If life originated without purpose, then it still has no purpose.  Life has no meaning other than whatever the individual or a society ascribes to it but ultimately results in utter destruction regardless of anything that anybody does.  It totally destroys any possible motivation to live.  Contrary to evolution, but in agreement with the bible, Ronin-dog says, “We should cherish our one life”.  Naturally, and contrary to evolution/atheism, we do cherish our own life but most atheists (in agreement with evolution) devalue another human’s life and fully support abortion.  If my life is to be cherished, why isn’t the unborn child’s?  If my life is only cherished by me and I find it to be too much of a burden, as many do, why not just do what we do to animals and purposely end it?  It is also coming to the point where society will make that decision for us.  As long as a person is healthy and productive or potentially productive to society they can live.  If they become ill and a burden, they should be killed.

I'm afraid there isn't much I can do for you there.If that's your outlook on life,no one can change it but you.I for one enjoy life, and find no despair in the fact of death.I would find myself unable to live as a christian again:

God created me.I did not ask to be, but I am.

Now I will go to heaven or hell.God knows which one.I do not

I will live my life fraught with fear and guilt,always afraid I will go to hell.

Most of my friends and family will go to hell.

One day god will come back and destroy the earth,everything anyone has ever done will be meaningless

End result-we're all going to die and the earth be destroyed,most will go to hell. If anybody should be killing babies, it's you.then theyare guaranteed heaven. Please point out where I'm wrong.

Know let's look at a godless,evolutionary universe.

The human race is here.

There is great suffering,but we can do something about it,since there isn't a all powerful god causing it.

In theory, the planet could one day be united in peace.God promises only war in the last days.

We could colonise other planets.

In billions of years when our sun dies,we could survive it as a race.

We could evolve so highly as to surpass corpeal form,or discover other dimensions.In this way we could survive the destruction of the very universe.

The possibilities are only as limited as your imagination.Sure,it seems unlikely,but we have incredible amounts of time to work with.I see no despair here, only hope.

Regardless of what evolution is, theory or principle, there is necessarily a world view that accompanies it.  It is not neutral.  It strips humanity of everything.  It is a living death, a magilum planet.  You have no legitimate reason to strive for anything.  Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in school.  And why should anybody care?  Let’s just keep dancing.  Ashes, ashes, we all fall down.  There is no anchor for any belief system (Heb 6:19), no solid Rock on which to build for the future (1Co 10:4; Psalm 61:2).

If you're one of those people who says"if it wasn't for god I'd be killing people right now" prehaps it's best you keep your beliefs for the good of those around you.

But let's play the game.Let us pretend they were chrsitian.Whatever reason would christians have for killing?

Exodus 21:15'And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.' Maybe god told them to kill some naughty kids. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

1 Samuel 15:3 'Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.' Maybe god wanted them to kill some sinners. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Matthew 10:34'Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.' They just wanted to be like jesus.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Luke 19:27'But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.'
Mabye those kids woudln't serve jesus.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

2 Kings 2:23-24'and he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.'

Maybe that school had mocked the men of god,but being short on bears he sent two gun toting teens.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

Deuteronomy 13:6,9 'If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

9 'But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.'

Maybe they tried to convert them to follow god.Clearly,they only had one option.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine) acted perfectly consistent with what they were taught in the bible

To even try use Columbine as an example of 'evolution evil' is ridiculous.You assume that they were evolutionists(not saying they weren't,I would have to research though) and ignore the multiple other factors.Their isolation and bullying at school, they two different personalities,one wanting fame and power, the other shy and needing acceptance. I do not believe that in the mix of all theses things,there thoughts or non thoughts on evolution had much to do with anything.

You seem to think we shouldn't mourn the dead.Everything is pointless right? Well athiests and evolutionists have feelings, and we cherish those close to us and will miss them when they're gone. However, I put it to you that you are the one that should be unfeeling in death. Either the person is in heaven,in which case you should celebrate their death, or in hell, in which case they clearly did something to anger god and are not deserving of sympathy.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

ronin-dog
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Tell me, when did evolution progress from “theory” to “scientific principle”?  http://www.grisda.org/origins/04004.htm[/quote]

As far as I am aware "scientific principle" is not an official term like theory is, so we were not trying to "progress" evolution above theory. It will never be a law. A scientific law is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. Evolution is too big an idea to become a law. The problem is many people confuse theory with hypothesis. A hypothesis is based on observations, but is yet to be proven, basically an educated guess. A theory is a much grander thing, it has been proven by evidence (in the case of evolution by thousands of pieces of evidence over a long period of time) and has been accepted by a large part of the scientific community. It is close to a scientific law, but it can never be one because of the scale. Theories evolve (or are occasionally destroyed) as new evidence comes to light.

Please note that your link is to a site that serves the 7th day adventist church and is therefore very likely to be biased. You need to find an explanation to fit the evidence, not come up with an answer and then look for evidence to fit it.

The point of my statement about accepting evolution as a world view is not so much about evolution itself.  It is the total despair that accompanies it.  If life originated without purpose, then it still has no purpose.

The idea that despair accompanies evolution is just your point of view, it is not a universal truth, and I am sorry you feel that way. Many christians think that god created us to worship him. That is not much of a purpose if you ask me (and why would an all powerful being have such a need of worship?). If that is our purpose, why bother to do anything else?

Life has no meaning other than whatever the individual or a society ascribes to it but ultimately results in utter destruction regardless of anything that anybody does.  It totally destroys any possible motivation to live.

That isn't true. The motivation to live is to experience life. Regardless of what you believe, we do live in a society where life only has no meaning other than whatever the individual or a society ascribes to it, it is not perfect but it does not result in ultimate destruction. The way we interact with others, what we do and how we act remain. If you act in a way that benefits others, I hardly see that as meaningless.

Contrary to evolution, but in agreement with the bible, Ronin-dog says, “We should cherish our one life”.  Naturally, and contrary to evolution/atheism, we do cherish our own life but most atheists (in agreement with evolution) devalue another human’s life and fully support abortion.  If my life is to be cherished, why isn’t the unborn child’s?  If my life is only cherished by me and I find it to be too much of a burden, as many do, why not just do what we do to animals and purposely end it?  It is also coming to the point where society will make that decision for us.  As long as a person is healthy and productive or potentially productive to society they can live.  If they become ill and a burden, they should be killed.

Cherishing life is not contrary to evolution/atheism, we would not have made it this far if we did not. Herd and pack animals would not exist if life were not cherished. It is basic evolutionary instinct to cherish life. Being pro-choice is not an athiest stand, we are all individuals and can choose where we want to stand on issues. You may be right in saying most (although I have seen no statistics) as atheists don't have their decision made for them based on dogma. The topic is too big to go into here and we don't want to fracture our thread too much. I don't see where you get your next point from, no-one is killing people because they aren't potentially productive, and there is no evidence that our society is heading that way.

Regardless of what evolution is, theory or principle, there is necessarily a world view that accompanies it.  It is not neutral.  It strips humanity of everything.  It is a living death, a magilum planet.  You have no legitimate reason to strive for anything.

It does not strip humanity of anything. Humanity is amazing, look at what we have achieved! Even if we were still hunter-gatherers (they do still exist), life is amazing! If you cannot see the worth in that when you take out the worship of god, I am truly sorry for you. Once again, it is christians who have no reason to strive. Why bother? Just worship your god to keep him happy and wait for the end. According to the bible he will destroy everything anyway and take you away from all of this, so what is the point? Humans strive and achieve because we can, we are evolutionarily driven to use our brains and strive because that is what ensured our survival in the first place.

See Loc's comment on Columbine.

Loc: nice prose, I really liked it.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51

johnwhardin
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Leeboy wrote: If one doesn't

Leeboy wrote:
If one doesn't believe in god, because god is unknown to them (in his xtian form), such as Eskimos (not so much today, but for the sake of argument, about 150 years ago when there were still Eskimos that didn't have any outside interference), or Africans, or any other "ignorant of god's love" tribe, do they automatically go to hell to be tortured, tormented or just plain screwed over, all because someone who created them did so in such a way that they would never hear about him, so they can't know him, and won't be saved? If they were to get baptised, wouldn't the water freeze? And just what WOULD you do for a Klondike Bar? Many questions, as of yet, all unanswered. Sorry for the run on sentences. I didn't want to break them all up. It's much too late for that.

Are eskimos going to hell..??

I'm a theist and I have no idea. And, in my opinion, any theist who claims with absolute certainty to have the answer is probably an idiot or a liar. Just as any atheist who claims to have THE answer is an idiot or a liar.

Both theists and athiests can give you an opinion - not a factual answer.

If, when you die, you "discover" an afterlife, then you might get the answer to your question then. But my guess is that you won't get it in this lifetime.

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible".

St. Thomas Aquinas
1225 - 1274