"The God Who Wasn't There" - Question

skeptnick
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"The God Who Wasn't There" - Question

I thought the fact that there was a 40 year gap between the life of Jesus and the first Gospel accounts was a point for the reliability of the Gospels, not against it? There are people alive today who remember events from the year 1968, and small ones at that - nothing nearly as big or as memorable as what it would be like to witness a resurrection.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15 is dated to within 15 years of the Life of Jesus Christ, and it was a public document read aloud to the public of Corinth,  freely open to have it's content contradicted. Even I remember things that happened in the year 1993, small things at that - and I was only 8 at the time.

Don't Legends take hundreds of years to develop? Can anyone show evidence of a legend that grew up in less than a century outside these Gospels? Can anyone show evidence of another Legend anywhere in the world in history that grew up in 40 years? Within 15 years? If not, why are we assuming they're legend? Could it be that some of they're content offends us? Well so what? Is that a case? Would someone who finds evolution offensive have a case, on those grounds, to question it's validity? Would someone who finds the Law of Gravitation have a case, on that ground, for blowing it off as "a myth"? Or, could it be that some of the content of the Gospels is too good to be true? Is the idea that someone is too good to be true a case for whether or not it is real?

Also - why put women as the first witnesses to the empty tomb? If you were in 1st century Palestine, and you wanted people to believe your message that the tomb was found empty and the Risen Christ was seen by people, why would you make Mary and her female followers the first witnesses, I don't get it. Women's testimony was not allowed in court, it was not considered evidence. So if I'm sitting down writing a myth that I want people to believe, why not make men the first witnesses? Much more believable.

"Because it's fictional writing made to look historical." say someone.

Well duuhhh - if I were a 1st century Jew, the last thing I would have done if I were trying to sell the lie is shoot myself in the foot from the outset - I would have made men the first witnesses, not women. Why? Because I would want to sell the lie.

Celsus, the major critic of Christianity in the 1st century illustrates this. Go read his arguments, do you know what one of them was when it was translated?  -  "These accounts cannot be trusted, for they have women as the first witnesses to the risen 'Lord', and we all know women cannot be trusted to give an accurate account."

And guess what, based on the arguement alone, Celsus turned a lot of his peers away from Christianity.

In a way you can almost picture Mark, Matthew, Luke and John sitting down going, "If we put this in here, no one will believe it happened. This is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the history of the world - and no one will believe it."

 

I went on a rant - any thoughts?


Rook_Hawkins
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skeptnick wrote:I thought

skeptnick wrote:

I thought the fact that there was a 40 year gap between the life of Jesus and the first Gospel accounts was a point for the reliability of the Gospels, not against it? There are people alive today who remember events from the year 1968, and small ones at that - nothing nearly as big or as memorable as what it would be like to witness a resurrection.

(1) It is a problem for those who claim Jesus was supernatural.  The Gospels recount Jesus as being followed by hundreds of people, yet none of them took to writing the events down.

(2) What we have came only after the destruction of the temple in the year 70, (conservative dating for the authorship of Mark) and was not a first hand account.  It was also anonymous.  We do not know the author and the dating is tentative.  We just know that it is sometime after 70.  Fundamentalist Christians, or very conservative scholars, will place the dating exactly at the year 70.  Many scholars are comfortable with it being around 73-75.  Some scholars date it much later. 

(3) The other Gospels came much later.  Luke-Acts came during the early-mid second century, almost a hundred years after the events supposedly happened.

(4) The Gospels get more and more fanciful as they go on, which is saying something because Mark is pretty fanciful to begin with, indicative of legend rather than history. 

(5) The other Gospels copied off of Mark, who clearly was writing fiction, using plot creation and narrative to invent scenes in his story. (See my blog articles for more details)

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Also, 1 Corinthians 15 is dated to within 15 years of the Life of Jesus Christ, and it was a public document read aloud to the public of Corinth,  freely open to have it's content contradicted. Even I remember things that happened in the year 1993, small things at that - and I was only 8 at the time.

Paul does not believe in a historical Jesus.  See this article for more details.

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Don't Legends take hundreds of years to develop? Can anyone show evidence of a legend that grew up in less than a century outside these Gospels?

Yes.  The legend of St. Genvieve.  You may also consider looking into American legends like Washington cutting down the cherry tree, Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan, etc...  For more in antiquity, Romulus and Remus, etc...

You do realize the average life expectancy was 45-50 years in antiquity?  That does not count the infant mortality rate, which would cut that number in half.

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Also - why put women as the first witnesses to the empty tomb? If you were in 1st century Palestine, and you wanted people to believe your message that the tomb was found empty and the Risen Christ was seen by people, why would you make Mary and her female followers the first witnesses, I don't get it. Women's testimony was not allowed in court, it was not considered evidence. So if I'm sitting down writing a myth that I want people to believe, why not make men the first witnesses? Much more believable.

The women are a part of Mark's narrative creation.  Earlier Mark has Jesus say his kingdom will be inherited by the meek.  He (Mark) continuously shows through parable what this means.  Jesus says to be like children, representative of where Mark got this quote from: Paul, who says that we should be like children in sin, but mature in life.  This passage is also representative of where Mark learned Greek - from Homeric epic (a widely ignored fact in scholarship up until a few years ago).  The three women represent in Mark's gospel the three women who also visit the tomb of Hector in Homer's Iliad.  Mark at times makes these startling but obvious references to Homeric epic throughout his narrative.  You can consult Dennis R. MacDonald on this issue, who has published quite a bit on trope usage from Homeric Epic. 

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"Because it's fictional writing made to look historical." say someone.

Actually, most scholars today accept this probability. 

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Well duuhhh - if I were a 1st century Jew, the last thing I would have done if I were trying to sell the lie is shoot myself in the foot from the outset - I would have made men the first witnesses, not women. Why? Because I would want to sell the lie.

Nobody was intending to lie, nor "sell" the lie.  There is no deceit in fiction writing.  Just entertainment, and for Mark, it was also for esoteric reasons.  Mark would have been writing for a community which already accepted this narrative as fiction.  Because later Christians were unaware of this fact, for whatever reason, is not as relevant.  Your conclusions here are not helpful.

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Celsus, the major critic of Christianity in the 1st century illustrates this. Go read his arguments, do you know what one of them was when it was translated?  -  "These accounts cannot be trusted, for they have women as the first witnesses to the risen 'Lord', and we all know women cannot be trusted to give an accurate account."

First, Celsus was not a critic in the first century.  He wasn't even alive in the first century.  Celsus wrote at the end of the second century, in the late 170's.  By this time, Christianity had an established Orthodoxy, called the universal (or Catholic) church.  Before this period, there was no established Orthodoxy.  Even after this century, all the way up until the beginning of the fourth century, there was no established single Christian church.  It would not be until the later half of the fourth century, by an edict from Athanasius, that there would even exist an "established" canonical New Testament, although the process would continue (canonization) until the Council of Trent, over six hundred years later.  You cannot use Celsus in c. 178, some 130 years after the first Christians composed any letters, to produce socio-cultural information for the first century.

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And guess what, based on the arguement alone, Celsus turned a lot of his peers away from Christianity.

Based on what evidence? 

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In a way you can almost picture Mark, Matthew, Luke and John sitting down going, "If we put this in here, no one will believe it happened. This is the greatest thing that has ever happened in the history of the world - and no one will believe it."

This is a naive position.  Mark, Matthew, Luke and John did not know each other, and wrote in different parts of the known world, over a period of some 130 years.   They were also not the original names of the authors--which nobody knows--and were only named such by later Christians in the second century. 

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I went on a rant - any thoughts?

Get your facts straight please.

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skeptnick
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Hey

 Hey, first off - thanks man! I've posted a few times on here before and I've always been met by people talking down to me, I appreciate you're strait answers to my points!

I'm gonna read through your blog articles that you linked before I respond, is that cool? I don't want you to think I'm dodging the points you've made is all if I don't respond for a day or two - I work a lot.

Later bro, thanks again!