A war for my soul..... its serious business >.> [Kill Em With Kindness]

Adroit
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A war for my soul..... its serious business >.> [Kill Em With Kindness]

Now that I grabbed your attention with that catchy title heres the business.

I am capable of making a clean easy to read and understand post, but I am really not feeling like it, I think if you read it youll forgive me for my horribly written post.

My name is Jon, im 17, I've been on 3 mission trips countless retreats blah blah blah, I was a Jesus freak. Seriously though I have a neon green shirt that said "jesus freak" on it. I am the cause of probably about 10 people's belief in God. (cant say for certain, they might have converted by someone else. I planned on becoming a priest. My passion for God was incredible.

A month ago I truly understood where I went wrong with my reasoning. 2 major problems here, I never found anything to believe in that made reasonable sense other than agnostic. I also had this huge hole after I lost my faith in God because that was everything. Even though I see it as false now you have to understand, nothing can compare. I cant have anything that can excite me really, life is really fucking boring. It probably would be exciting if i didn't have my life as a Christian to compare it to. I cant begin to explain how exhilarating it is to "think" you feel the holy spirit running through your body. I thought I had visions, I thought God was Guiding me. I Thought I was doing something that was eternally important. Nothing compares to that anymore...

 I am agnostic I think. The problem is i'd like to say that I'm comfortable being an agnostic but im not. I tell people I am all the time, I say "it is peaceful to admit that you cant figure it out for certain." I say "I dont have to think about it anymore" To be honest thinking about it drives me crazy. I stay awake at night thinking about it in my head. I have a bag full of letters from people under my bed that i found inspirational. I have a box full of my writings about my love for God under my bed that I've come close to setting on fire. Its creepy reading my own writing about my visions, inspirations, love for God. I wrote a letter to myself in the future basically telling myself that I know God exists blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is that I cannot bring myself to rid myself of these things. I cannot shout "I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT" I cant throw away the bag, I cant throw away the box. I cant rid my wardrobe of my 10 shirts with bible verses on them. My heart naturally warms when I see a cross. I want to go to the monthly retreat at my church every month. I feel awkward every sunday morning. I cant laugh when I see a picture of jesus on the cross and someone added a word bubble saying "brb" above him. (as funny as it is) I thought it would go away eventually but it hasnt, its been almost a year now and it hasnt even decreased.

I can't deny the holy spirit....
The idea of me doing it scares the shit out of me.

I wonder, if I could just exclaim "I deny the holy spirit" I wouldnt be afraid anymore either.

might make me go crazy though. I cant really predict it, I know I will feel fucked up if /when I say it. I dont know how I will feel after it.

For a little backround on how I think, I dont trust the human mind. That makes it kinda interesting doesnt it?

I think the human mind is flawed, very much flawed. I dont think we can fathom anything like where everything came from.

I use my mind for simple stuff, things that have an end and a beginning.

Infinite regression is not in that category.

I dont want to explain why i feel this way because last time I did the person responded with "whats the point in living then?"

Don't understand why she would say that? Good.
(feel kinda bad about talking to her about that)

I think i'm done with this post.

call me overdramatic or emo or w/e I dont give a shit

I just want all this to end and im hoping someone can put words on my screen that can help.

 


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Hope

 Certainly nobody's going to call you "emo" (or at least if they do, they're just mean, and you can ignore them). 

It's completely natural when faced with the kind of trauma you've experienced (in attempting to let go of a strongly held belief) that you would feel depressed. That's what happens with that kind of change. It may last for a while, but it does go away. It does get better.

The massive feeling of relief that starts to build, and the relaxed, less-confusing understanding of the world that results is fantastic. No more strange attempts to divert what you think are awful thoughts (since let's be honest, they're just thoughts). No more feeling terrible for random transgressions (though you're still going to feel terrible for doing things that hurt others - nothing to be done there). An entire lifetime of learning about the nature of things without having to force it all into another belief that you feel you have to hold ... it's incredibly liberating.

I hope you'll be able to see the hope. It's been wonderful for me, so I hope it can be for you, too.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Adroit wrote:I can't deny

Adroit wrote:
I can't deny the holy spirit....


The idea of me doing it scares the shit out of me.

Hey, it's only been a month. There's no rush. Take your time to heal.

Regarding your boredom: Don't worry. You don't have to give up amazingness or awe or wonder when you lose belief in god. There are lots of things to be excited about. Start learning about science and history and philosophy. The universe is far more amazing and wonderful than Yahweh and Jesus. Try some Buddhism, or modern neuroscience and psychology. Learn how the human mind works. Read The Mind of the Bible Believer to see how the Bible fucked with your head, and forgive yourself. It's not your fault. Next, pick up a book by Joseph Campbell and find out about the universality of all myths, including the myths in the Bible. There's so much to learn! Watch Cosmos by Carl Sagan: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2497938397749959211

 

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I'm sick of thinking...

I'm sick of thinking... actually one thing ive gotten into is mindless. I've gotten really into competitive gaming. I'm in one of the top six versus six clans in a game called Team Fortress 2. Its pointless, but I get a rush out of competing.

Just read the "Am I Agnostic or Atheist" thinger, and Im an Agnostic Atheist.


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\\I'm an Agnostic

\\I'm an Agnostic Athiest\\

Cant wait to tell my parents Laughing out loud...
jk i actually hate talking to them about it.

actually a few days ago i had to sit through "The Case For Christ" By Lee Strobel.

My parents made me watch it.

I can see why it is so popular but logically it fails hardcore.


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Adroit wrote:I'm sick of

Adroit wrote:

I'm sick of thinking... actually one thing ive gotten into is mindless. I've gotten really into competitive gaming. I'm in one of the top six versus six clans in a game called Team Fortress 2. Its pointless, but I get a rush out of competing.

Just read the "Am I Agnostic or Atheist" thinger, and Im an Agnostic Atheist.

Bonus thingamee #2: no reason not to do what you like (other than someone getting hurt or ruining your chances at long-term enjoyment of life).

You don't need to say it's pointless if it's fun. Some people go skiing, and I don't know why. It doesn't mean I'd tell them it's pointless.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Adroit wrote:actually a few

Adroit wrote:
actually a few days ago i had to sit through "The Case For Christ" By Lee Strobel.

Wow. That's ... terrible.

Adroit wrote:
My parents made me watch it.

Yikes. Are they heavily religious?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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thanks will...According to

thanks will...

According to society Competitive gaming is a completely different thing from a sport.
when I cant find a difference between the 2. Its just new and different. It is definitely getting there. I've had some of my matches watched by more people than the 12 people who were in the match Sticking out tongue. Live commentary too Laughing out loud. But.... we lost Sad.

lol

 

And yeah, they are heavily religious, Ironically it's because of me.


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actually my memory is kinda

actually my memory is kinda fuzzy... maybe they were in it before me. maybe it happened at the same time. I do know I inspired my parents religiously... a lot.


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Think About It This Way

Try to figure out what it was about a belief in the supernatural that was comforting to you and apply that to real life. If it was about purpose and fulfillment, find that somewhere else (like competitive gaming). If it was confidence in the guidance of a superior being, realize that he was never actually there and you did just fine anyway. Believe in yourself the way you used to believe in God and you will come out alright. We're rooting for you.

COME TO THE DARK SIDE -- WE HAVE COOKIES


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Adroit wrote:According to

Adroit wrote:

According to society Competitive gaming is a completely different thing from a sport.

Didn't they make chess a sport? Anyway, competitive gaming is hilarious to watch, so I'm sure eventually it'll be accepted. As soon as people start betting illegally on it, it's a sport - isn't that how it works?

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Adroit wrote:actually my

Adroit wrote:

actually my memory is kinda fuzzy... maybe they were in it before me. maybe it happened at the same time. I do know I inspired my parents religiously... a lot.

It's a pretty amazing story, I have to say. My parents were never religious, so I've never seen that kind of dynamic myself. I think that'll be a tough one, if they're really into it.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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If you were planning to be a

If you were planning to be a priest, I assume you're Catholic (maybe Orthodox).  Perhaps an hour alone with the Blessed Sacrament would help.  If you feel nothing, then mebbe consider walking away.  The "dark night of the soul" is something any serious believer experiences at one time or another.  You may want to consider reading "Dark Night of the Soul" by St John of the Cross.  It's not an easy read since it was written in the 16th century, in Spanish, by a Carmelite mystic. 

In the meantime, chin up.  My "dark night" lasted the better part of 20 years.

You're in my prayers today, Jon, before our crucified Lord.  God bless.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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I really relate to you here.

I really relate to you here. Like you, I was 17, and on fire for god, went it all went pear shaped. I understand everything you're saying, I said it all myself. Those months were the worst ever. I swayed in between calling myself agnostic to freaking out and thinking," WHAT THE HECK AM I DOING?!?I'M GOING TO HELL!" It was an emotionally tortoruous time. It takes time before you can be free,and do something like deny the holy spirit. Most apostates here will tell you they still have lingering fears occasionaly, regardless of how long you have been atheist. You just have to understand this thing has been instilled into you with fear, you will need time and lots of thinking to overcome it.

I also have highly religious parents, who know nothing of my atheism. If you can talk about it with them ,that will make it easier. De-converting is hard, but de-converting and still living as a christian is far worse.

It's natural you can't get rid of your christian stuff yet. It provided you with hope all these years. Sometimes I will catch myself longing for that comfort of 'knowing' and not having to think about things. But then I realise it's all rubbish, and I'm far better off now. Again it will take time.

You might want to look at this site. It helped me when I was in your place. http://www.losingmyreligion.com/

No one here's going to call you overdramatic. Most of us have been through this, in vaying degrees. It is hard. We're all behind you though.

 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Welcome to the boards.

Welcome to the boards. You've joined a community where many of us were in the same boat. I was not from a particuliarly religious family myself, but at about your age I experienced the same thing. I only spent about a year and a half as a christian and the last 20 questioning the existence of god.

The loss of faith can be a disturbing thing but there is nothing inherently wrong with where you are today. It wasn't until I really started to explore the origins of the world's religions that I decided it's all just make believe. I haven't given up on the existence of a creator, which is why I am also an agnostic atheist. I just find that the bible, quran and the rig vedas absurd in the "undeniable" truth they offer. If there is a god it must be something beyond the grasp of our human understanding.

As a christian I would have never viewed god as cruel or sadistic, but because I am so far disconnected from my faith I see the god of the bible in a much different light today. Your belief in god probably started when you were young so the hold religion has on your life is probably strong. If you are looking for an easy transition to atheism I can't offer you the path. You could deny the holy spirit, but is this truly an unforgivable sin? The only truly unforgivable sin is denying the existence of an invisible sky daddy, well according to the bible anyways. There is little evidence that any of the major events in the bible actually took place. The flood, the exodus from Egypt and the life of jesus are just many examples of events lacking corroborating physical evidence. If there was no flood then how can the bible be the literal word of god? Try reading your bible again without the dogma attached and you may find most of the shit in it is so undeniably ridiculous.

Honestly, there is nothing that theism offers that cannot be derived from atheism as well. Your life can be as fulfilling and wonderful as your old life, maybe even more so. Atheists base their actions on the altruistic nature of our species more so than the coersion of religious dogma. Good luck and hang in there.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Adroit wrote:I'm sick of

Adroit wrote:

I'm sick of thinking... actually one thing ive gotten into is mindless. I've gotten really into competitive gaming. I'm in one of the top six versus six clans in a game called Team Fortress 2. Its pointless, but I get a rush out of competing.

Just read the "Am I Agnostic or Atheist" thinger, and Im an Agnostic Atheist.

TF2 is a blast. I haven't played it against anyone good, but I suck worse than most. And I'm a console gamer, so that should tell you how not-serious I am about it.

I'm 40, and I've been playing games since my high school got an Apple ][ in 1980. Thtat's... most of my life. My God. How pathetic I've been.

Games are great. The fact that you a top team competitor in TF2, which has quite a following, is an accomplishment in which you can take justifiable pride.

Oh, if you haven't seen The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters, give it a shot. It's a pretty short documentary about breaking the world record Donkey Kong score. Seriously. That's all it's about, and it's fascinating.

It's your quest, and yours alone. I can't give you anything to fill the void, but I believe you'll find something.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Adroit wrote:Now that I

Adroit wrote:

Now that I grabbed your attention with that catchy title heres the business.

I am capable of making a clean easy to read and understand post, but I am really not feeling like it, I think if you read it youll forgive me for my horribly written post.

My name is Jon, im 17, I've been on 3 mission trips countless retreats blah blah blah, I was a Jesus freak. Seriously though I have a neon green shirt that said "jesus freak" on it. I am the cause of probably about 10 people's belief in God. (cant say for certain, they might have converted by someone else. I planned on becoming a priest. My passion for God was incredible.

A month ago I truly understood where I went wrong with my reasoning. 2 major problems here, I never found anything to believe in that made reasonable sense other than agnostic. I also had this huge hole after I lost my faith in God because that was everything. Even though I see it as false now you have to understand, nothing can compare. I cant have anything that can excite me really, life is really fucking boring. It probably would be exciting if i didn't have my life as a Christian to compare it to. I cant begin to explain how exhilarating it is to "think" you feel the holy spirit running through your body. I thought I had visions, I thought God was Guiding me. I Thought I was doing something that was eternally important. Nothing compares to that anymore...

 

I know exactly what you mean. I underwent a similar experience about 4 or so years ago. It scared the shit out of me too. I just slowly came to realize that nobody was backing up what they were saying. The pastors didn't make sense anymore. The people in the youth groups went from looking holy, filled with joy, to glazed over, zombified, controlled. I began to doubt my own thoughts. I tried to supress my growing suspicion that it was all a lie. I rationalized, I pleaded, I prayed, but in the end, I just felt empty. I felt like I had wasted my life up until that point on nothing, and that nothing could come after it.

 

Adroit wrote:

 I am agnostic I think. The problem is i'd like to say that I'm comfortable being an agnostic but im not. I tell people I am all the time, I say "it is peaceful to admit that you cant figure it out for certain." I say "I dont have to think about it anymore" To be honest thinking about it drives me crazy. I stay awake at night thinking about it in my head. I have a bag full of letters from people under my bed that i found inspirational. I have a box full of my writings about my love for God under my bed that I've come close to setting on fire. Its creepy reading my own writing about my visions, inspirations, love for God. I wrote a letter to myself in the future basically telling myself that I know God exists blah blah blah.

The best thing you can do is research it. A lot of people just coming out of it think they're agnostic too, myself included. But there's a lot of confusion regarding the terminology. The best thing you can do is research what it means to be an agnostic and an atheist, and decide for yourself what you believe. Here's a quick test though: Do you believe in god? I'm not asking whether or not you know god exists, just whether you believe that he exists. If the answer is "Yes", you're a theist. If the answer is "no", you're an atheist. Now, do you know that god does/does not exist? If the answer is "yes", you are gnostic. If the answer is "no", you are agnostic. Thus you can be either a gnostic theist, an agnostic theist, a gnostic atheist or an agnostic  atheist.

 

Most of the people on this site are agnostic  atheists. Most of your friends in the youth groups will claim to be gnostic or agnostic theists. What is important to remember though, is that agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. You can be both.

Adroit wrote:

Anyway, my point is that I cannot bring myself to rid myself of these things. I cannot shout "I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT" I cant throw away the bag, I cant throw away the box. I cant rid my wardrobe of my 10 shirts with bible verses on them. My heart naturally warms when I see a cross. I want to go to the monthly retreat at my church every month. I feel awkward every sunday morning. I cant laugh when I see a picture of jesus on the cross and someone added a word bubble saying "brb" above him. (as funny as it is) I thought it would go away eventually but it hasnt, its been almost a year now and it hasnt even decreased.

I can't deny the holy spirit....
The idea of me doing it scares the shit out of me.

I felt the same way. I felt gripped by fear. I used to sit up all night in my bedroom thinking "if God exists, wouldn't he be really angry with me right now?" and I would just shiver and think about that. But I got over it. After you've researched it, after you've thought about it long enough, the fear goes away like the fear of the boogeyman in the closet or the fear or pissing off Santa Claus and getting coal in your stocking. Christianity breeds on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear or god, fear of the devil, fear of reason, fear of your own thoughts. It is a powerful fear, but you can escape it. All you have to do is realize that its all a lie. All a method of controlling you. Of using you. Of keeping you. And then the fear becomes anger, anger becomes disgust, and disgust becomes pity.

 

Adroit wrote:

I wonder, if I could just exclaim "I deny the holy spirit" I wouldnt be afraid anymore either.

You don't have to say it. It's just silly words. What matters is what you think and believe.

 

Adroit wrote:

might make me go crazy though. I cant really predict it, I know I will feel fucked up if /when I say it. I dont know how I will feel after it.

For a little backround on how I think, I dont trust the human mind. That makes it kinda interesting doesnt it?

I think the human mind is flawed, very much flawed. I dont think we can fathom anything like where everything came from.

I use my mind for simple stuff, things that have an end and a beginning.

Infinite regression is not in that category.

 

Indeed, we humans live in the middle world of short time spans, slow-moving objects, objects no larger than mountains and no smaller than bugs, when the universe is so much grander, so much older, so much more complex than we can imagine. That is what makes religion so appealing. It teaches simple solutions. It teaches black and white, right and wrong, actions of a vast and uncaring universe as the whims of a single magical man. It is easy for us to understand. In the words of hamlet though, "There are more things in heaven and earth than is dream't of in your philosophy".

What we are incapable of understanding we must break into simpler parts and make an honest effort to explain them. The universe doesn't often grant simple solutions, but we must do our best to find out the real truth, rather than inventing a truth that makes sense to our small, tribalistic minds.

 

Adroit wrote:

I dont want to explain why i feel this way because last time I did the person responded with "whats the point in living then?"

Don't understand why she would say that? Good.
(feel kinda bad about talking to her about that)

 

Ah, the old Nihilism trick. Indeed, what is the point in living? Without religion there can be no absolute purpose. No absolute answer to the absolute "why". But the universe is not absolute. It is subjective. The point in living is the point you make, the point you control. On the contrary, I would say "if you get infinite bliss after you die, what is the point in living?" Religion offers the easy out. It offers the simple, pleasing solution to the problem of life, and in doing so, it destroys the very joy of life. We alone experience our short, yet fantastic lives. We are privaleged to be here. We are privaleged to see the world with our own eyes and think about it. It is something amazing, and it is something that should not be wasted.

 

I admire your coming here. I just want you to know that whatever you may be feeling now will pass eventually. You'll either fall back into the church or you'll climb out of it. Right now you're in the worst part, the middle. But its downhill both ways. I encourage you to research, to think, to explore. Gradually you will find your own philosophy, and you will no longer be afraid of the clutches of dogma which have bound you in the past.


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Congratulations

Congatulations on waking up!!! I agree with the others, there is no need to rush. Throw out your things when you are ready. Maybe you could start with one thing at a time. Same with denying the holy spirit, it may be liberating to do it but if you aren't ready for it don't rush, you could perhaps make a different symbolic statement about the bible or your former religion etc.

I think it is natural for you to feel withdrawal from the happy delusion you were in. In a way it must be like being on pain-killers or something else that gives you a buzz, so the comedown won't be easy.

If you are tired from thinking give it a break. Games are fine, but they are a distraction, as long as you are aware of that it's ok.

I would recommend finding some time to chill without distraction as well. Being out in nature is good, there is something primally calming about being out in the world and sunshine is a natural mood lifter. You can sit still, garden, or just walk. The important thing is to leave your headphones at home! Even indoors or just driving is fine, as long as you feel it is a peaceful environment.

If your head is really busy you may not be able to stand it for long, just try it again now and then.

Sometimes i can't stand having music on in my car now coz I feel my head needs a little space to sort itself out.

 

Good Luck!

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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Hello Adroit!Good to see you

Hello Adroit!
Good to see you here, I hope you'll get better soon.
I was raised as a christian too, mostly because of a tradition, because everyone around was. I was afraid of Hell, I wanted to go to Heaven, and I prayed. Not for long, though. My parents had a hobby, which would be today considered a part of New Age Movement. You know, an idea of reincarnation sounds much better than burning in Hell forever. Feels more right. What Rook, Sapient, and others explains here all the time, I already felt in my heart, the nonsense of christianic mechanisms.
I never had a slightest fear of God, when abandoning a religion and you don't have too. Look around you - if no God exists, then everything's fine, and if exists, then as a creator of such a huge, complex and sophisticated world, the God must be very intelligent and won't resemble the barbaric Yahweh at all. No anthropomorphism, for example, no senseless punishment.

I consider myself as atheistic gnostic. I don't believe the New Age crap - I have seen what works and what not, thus a belief is out of the game. The rest of my paradigm is a logical assumption based on my experiences and of people I can trust, and if not totally, I just wait if some reliable confirmation shows up. It usually shows.
You don't have to refuse existence of non-material parts of reality, you can unbiasedly find for yourself, what is real (though it requires some effort). Being an atheist doesn't mean you must refuse everything you believed in, just what you don't have a reason for. I think, that a reason can be also personal. I personally experienced things, which seemed as impossible at first, but later I had them interpersonally confirmed, by people who experienced the same thing or very similar.

Adroit wrote:
I cant begin to explain how exhilarating it is to "think" you feel the holy spirit running through your body. I thought I had visions, I thought God was Guiding me. I Thought I was doing something that was eternally important. Nothing compares to that anymore...
I know it. Some calls it Holy spirit, some just energy. Feelings like this are not illusions, though their interpretations may be false. It is always better when you know exactly what you're doing. "Holy spirit" is quite a poor explanation, but considering everything as a trick of mind is a way to ignorance.
For example, I have an enhanced touch sense, since I remember, I can anytime perceive objects, which are, at best, non-material. I could reject it as a trick of mind, but many other people, either on the internet, or some I know have this enhanced touch sense too. It is also sometimes taught on semminaries as a helpful technique for alternative medicine healers. This is an example of interpersonal confirmation, an important thing in sceptical and scientific thinking. If I then want to describe this phenomenon, there's an originally eastern teaching of a human being consisting of multiple non-material "bodies". Except of physical is so-called etheric body, which some new age sympathizants claims to be partially visible on Kirlian's photography. The notion of etheric body fits well on the perceived phenomenon, so I can consider a possibility, that the eastern teaching I mentioned is about the same phenomenon I meant. It also increases a probability of existence of other non-material "bodies". And now I have some more possibilities. You got the point, if you don't feel like rejecting non-material phenomenons, just stay unbiased and seek for credible personal and interpersonal experiences and you'll see.
"Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so." - Galileo Galilei

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


LosingStreak06
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First of all, I'd like to

First of all, I'd like to congratulate you for your courage. It takes a very strong mind to shed itself of the kind of faith you had, and an even stronger one to do so in such an environment that you are in. I imagine that, during your stint with Jesus, you made quite a few connections, and developed some very strong relationships with those who shared your faith. These can make leaving religion a very difficult and painful process.

As to denying the Holy Spirit, throwing out all your old stuff, and ridding yourself of the remnants of your dearly departed faith, I would say that you don't have much to worry about. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but you are only 17 years old, and you have the rest of your life to think about denying the holy spirit, the holy church, or even the holy garbanzo bean, if you want to.

I can understand your feelings of boredom and meaninglessness. In society today, the "meaningfulness" of any activity is generally measured by whether or not it is constructive, and one of the tough things about being young is that there aren't many opportunities to engage in activities that are genuinely constructive. This, I think, can often lead to the feeling that nothing one is doing is important, or matters. Many young people miss those feelings because they are distracted by the drive of being young. But I think it is something that tends to dwell in the more intellectual teenagers; I think I may have sensed it myself at points, although I could not put words behind it, and I do not and have not ever considered myself an intellectual.

Like you, I struggle with thoughts. Often I become tired of thinking. As a result, I have become somewhat apathetic toward intellectual endeavors (this isn't something I would really recommend to others, as it is something of an injustice towards society, but I am more than capable of living with it).

I'm not entirely sure why it is you wish to throw away your things. Perhaps you could explain that to me.


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Quote:A month ago I truly

Quote:
A month ago I truly understood where I went wrong with my reasoning. 2 major problems here, I never found anything to believe in that made reasonable sense other than agnostic. I also had this huge hole after I lost my faith in God because that was everything. Even though I see it as false now you have to understand, nothing can compare. I cant have anything that can excite me really, life is really fucking boring. It probably would be exciting if i didn't have my life as a Christian to compare it to. I cant begin to explain how exhilarating it is to "think" you feel the holy spirit running through your body. I thought I had visions, I thought God was Guiding me. I Thought I was doing something that was eternally important. Nothing compares to that anymore...

Take a look at these photos. My favorite image from Hubble, ever, is the one of the Eagle Nebula posted here:

http://www.floridamuseum.org/downloads/images.html

If this doesn't catch your breath and make you feel somewhat privileged, I don't know what will. That is what the mother of our solar system looked like, in all her grandeur and beauty. For all the church was able to say about the alleged perfect creator who put us here - could they ever show you a picture of him?

 

As far as losing your 'guiding hand', I'm afraid that's just a matter of taking responsibilty for what comes your way. You've been guiding yourself all along, afterall - now you've simply got to do the work involved in making your own destiny here. You're only as unimportant as you let yourself become.

Best luck on the road ahead.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Adroit
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Thanks a lot

Its been awhile since i wrote this... I'm ressurecting a super old post but i feel stupid for making the topic and then leaving for a few months 10 minutes later. I have a Girlfriend now, she is in the same boat as me with this religion situation thing. I'm actually sponsored now in TF2... Don't have to pay for servers or entry fees Laughing out loud. although it was my unease that reminded me of this post a few months later. That uneasy feeling has gotten better. In fact some of the christian responses i got made me laugh!! Laughing at it rather than being disgusted is a lot better. I want to say thanks, i'm really glad I came back and read this.
 


Brian37
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Adroit wrote:Now that I

Adroit wrote:

Now that I grabbed your attention with that catchy title heres the business.

I am capable of making a clean easy to read and understand post, but I am really not feeling like it, I think if you read it youll forgive me for my horribly written post.

My name is Jon, im 17, I've been on 3 mission trips countless retreats blah blah blah, I was a Jesus freak. Seriously though I have a neon green shirt that said "jesus freak" on it. I am the cause of probably about 10 people's belief in God. (cant say for certain, they might have converted by someone else. I planned on becoming a priest. My passion for God was incredible.

A month ago I truly understood where I went wrong with my reasoning. 2 major problems here, I never found anything to believe in that made reasonable sense other than agnostic. I also had this huge hole after I lost my faith in God because that was everything. Even though I see it as false now you have to understand, nothing can compare. I cant have anything that can excite me really, life is really fucking boring. It probably would be exciting if i didn't have my life as a Christian to compare it to. I cant begin to explain how exhilarating it is to "think" you feel the holy spirit running through your body. I thought I had visions, I thought God was Guiding me. I Thought I was doing something that was eternally important. Nothing compares to that anymore...

 I am agnostic I think. The problem is i'd like to say that I'm comfortable being an agnostic but im not. I tell people I am all the time, I say "it is peaceful to admit that you cant figure it out for certain." I say "I dont have to think about it anymore" To be honest thinking about it drives me crazy. I stay awake at night thinking about it in my head. I have a bag full of letters from people under my bed that i found inspirational. I have a box full of my writings about my love for God under my bed that I've come close to setting on fire. Its creepy reading my own writing about my visions, inspirations, love for God. I wrote a letter to myself in the future basically telling myself that I know God exists blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is that I cannot bring myself to rid myself of these things. I cannot shout "I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT" I cant throw away the bag, I cant throw away the box. I cant rid my wardrobe of my 10 shirts with bible verses on them. My heart naturally warms when I see a cross. I want to go to the monthly retreat at my church every month. I feel awkward every sunday morning. I cant laugh when I see a picture of jesus on the cross and someone added a word bubble saying "brb" above him. (as funny as it is) I thought it would go away eventually but it hasnt, its been almost a year now and it hasnt even decreased.

I can't deny the holy spirit....
The idea of me doing it scares the shit out of me.

I wonder, if I could just exclaim "I deny the holy spirit" I wouldnt be afraid anymore either.

might make me go crazy though. I cant really predict it, I know I will feel fucked up if /when I say it. I dont know how I will feel after it.

For a little backround on how I think, I dont trust the human mind. That makes it kinda interesting doesnt it?

I think the human mind is flawed, very much flawed. I dont think we can fathom anything like where everything came from.

I use my mind for simple stuff, things that have an end and a beginning.

Infinite regression is not in that category.

I dont want to explain why i feel this way because last time I did the person responded with "whats the point in living then?"

Don't understand why she would say that? Good.
(feel kinda bad about talking to her about that)

I think i'm done with this post.

call me overdramatic or emo or w/e I dont give a shit

I just want all this to end and im hoping someone can put words on my screen that can help.

 

Quote:
I can't deny the holy spirit....
The idea of me doing it scares the shit out of me.

When you've been told repeatedly by society that leaving the club is a no no which will bbQ you, you are still, even after facing some of the fallacies going to have some left over fear.

I knew I didn't believe for at least 6 years before I went on line in O1 searching for other atheists, and when I clicked on the first site, I feared that somehow maybe I might be getting involved in a cult. That was left over fear caused by a lifetime of indoctrination. I lost that fear less than a few days later when I read about other atheists having just as normal a life as I did.

It should no more scare you denying the holy spirit as it should scare you denying Thor or Micky Mouse being real. If you accept that their is no god in the sky named Thor making thunder and lighting, then it should not be a stretch to deny claims of ghosts knocking up girls or human flesh surviving rigor mortis after 3 days.

Lose that fear, it is merely a leftover affect of intellectual ignorance. You've accepted that other parts of your former belief are nothing but magical claims, why would you want to believe that you need to fear a dictator who will beat you up if you don't bow to him?

If you accept other claims of your former belief are fiction, then the idea of hell should rationally fall in the same boat. You have nothing to fear from fiction just as you have nothing to fear from Harry Potter.

I hope that helps.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Presuppositionalist
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Quote:I cannot shout "I DENY

Quote:
I cannot shout "I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT"

Got no problem writing it, though, do ya? Do ya?

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Got no problem writing it, though, do ya? Do ya?

Can't win 'em back, scare 'em back, huh?