Steve Gregg
Posted on: June 25, 2006 - 4:26am
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Steve Gregg
I heard yall recorded the show with Steve, any sneak peek of what to expect when it gets played?
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Dude...seriously, are you Steve's son or something?! How are you privy to all this information? First you beg both the infidelguy AND us to get him on our shows, then you find out about his appearance in the infidelguy before anybody in the community knows. Now, you know about his recording on our show, apparently from Steve after he claimed to be going to sleep at the end of our phone call.
Do you work for him, are you his son, are you Steve? Are you actually open and receptive to the fact that Steve might be incorrect?
And why give him so much credit, clearly you are under his wing. His arguments were easily defeatable. You give this guy way too much credit. Have you not cross referenced his claims?
Yes, he was intelligent.... for a Christian. But, his facts were off, he has no knowledge of determining what is required as valid forms of evidence for belief, and what he does use as valid form of evidence he selectively chooses to apply to the bible but not other unproven concepts. Additionaly he has issues with historical methods of dating and timelines that eluded him. If you want to know what happened during the debate, you'll have to wait for the show airs or purchase it.
As for a sneak peak, expect to see Steve not understand what evidence is needed to prove a claim. Furthermore his ignorance shows when he tries to reconcile huge problems between Acts and Pauls ACTUAL authentic works. So will you be running into Steve's bedroom now to tell him what was said here? Just curious...
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no I am not steve's son, i've actually never even met him in person, i am a fan of his radio show, and i have a few friends who attended his school, i've probably listened to most of his teachings, i actually found out about yall recording the show on his website in the forum, and in no way, shape, or form do i think steve is infallable, just as i dont think i am infallible, i am a fan of your show, and a fan of his show, and i wanted to hear both of them together.... did i do something wrong? i consider myself a christian now, but if i feel that i find enough evidence to prove christianity wrong, i will drop christianity, at the moment it seems highly unlikely, because i am diving deeper and deeper into studies each day, but that is what i believe now,
so yeah, steve mentioned how the show went, so i figured i heard his side of how it went, i wondered what yall's side would say about how it went, so i could learn something, you jumped to conclusions about me, and i do feel like you disrespected me in the reply you put on this forum, but it is your show, and your website, so i guess if thats how ya wanna do things here, then its ok, anyways, i like yalls show, and i hope to hear more theist vs. atheist debate
-devin
I don't think any disrespect was meant towards you. Sometimes our posts are absent the special sugar coated topping you might want to help make them easier to swallow.
How many other fans do you think Steve spoke to last night after his appearance in which he said he was going to sleep, due to jet lag?
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http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1026
Like playing chess with a pigeon, they knock over the pieces and claim victory.
The Emptiness of Theology
-- Richard Dawkins
I believe he's referring to a moment when Rook called Steve ignorant. He mentioned at that point something about being rational. Steve might not realize that calling someone ignorant, or telling someone to shut the fuck up might possibly be the most rational thing to do. Rook didn't mean it in a derogatory sense, he meant lack of knowledge, however I think Steve took offense. However within moments Steve was firing back calling Rook ignorant as well. We really don't expect much less than for Steve to think we're irrational, Steve makes a living on this particular line of thought, we don't expect him to give up his career of 35 years simply because we proved him to be deceiving his listeners. We only hosted Steve as a favor to Devin, hopefully he sees through any raised voices or near insults on both sides, and listens to the heart of the arguments instead.
Hopefully Rook (who is very busy) will be able to spend time on Steves show, however considering that Steve is live, it may be hard if Rook is always at work during that time.
The Gospel already has won. The gospel has claimed millions upon millions of victims, over the years. It is our duty, our responsibilty to help save those affected. Steve will not change, but the common man like Devin has a chance. Devin is not invested financially, only mentally. This is why I'd much rather have a common man theist on then a radio show host theist on.
And no Steve, we are not the best atheists can come up with. We're just 4 average rational guys who tore your fallacious and weak arguments to shreds, after 14 hours of recording, with sore throats.
I don't fault him for this. From his perspective he won, and if he doesn't feel he did, he is surely going to deceive his herd into thinking he did. He has too much at stake, to give up if he is wrong.
Additonally, I just knocked the whole damn chess table over, and claimed victory.
Thanks for bringing this article to my attention, maybe this is how Devin heard about it.
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he just put up a post for everyone to see on the forum, he did not speak to me specifically
steve has said in his apologetics series on his website called "the authority of the scripture, - "the knowledge of the truth 1 & 2" (it is in the topical lectures section on the left of the screen), and numerous times on his radio show, that he would leave christianity if it wasn't true, of course he says this leading up to very in depth teachings about the historicity of the bible, and philosophical teachings, the first 2 teachings that i mentioned here the "knowledge of the truth" is really all about looking at things critically, i think anyone interested in philosophy would get something out of it, plus it really reveals his side/thoughts on the whole god concept, but who knows, he could believe one thing and teach something else, whichever, right now i'm just delving thru a lot of material, and i may never reach a conclusion, but we'll see
-devin
I have tried to get something out of the people who preach biblical historicity, creationism, etc.
Most christians will agree that there is no evidence for their claims, and that it requires the leap of faith that every christian embraces. Some of them (mostly camp workers and school administrators) actually state that child indoctrination is essential. I hate these people, they are morally bankrupt and I see it as impossible for them to change. They would be the kind of people i'd want my child to stay away from, the same category as child molesters, kidnappers, army recruiters, and drug addicts.
I've tried to see the side of faith, but I can't. I just can't be so intellectually dishonest.
Welcome devin, I hope you get to listen to some episodes. Just please remember that no-one is infallible. You may find that us Atheists are the only people in the world that will ask you to verify the claims that we make, that is because we care about you (and not the fake Christian caring either, we've all seen where that leads) and your integrity as a person.
There will be no attempts to convert you, you are the person that is going to convince yourself of the truth.
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
He also said that us atheists don't believe in God because we have a presupposition to not believe in anything supernatural. Of course, this argument is blown to pieces by the fact that we all started out as loyal followers, and happy believers of all that is supernatural, so much so that one of us wanted to be a Priest at 15 and another was an alter boy.
Anyone who is an expert on the bible and hasn't come away from it realizing that the story is fictional, is either ignorant, dishonest, or they themselves have a presuppositon TO believe something supernatural (while most likely being ignorant and/or dishonest). I don't trust or believe that the stated position of Steve, that he would leave Christianity if it were untrue is the truth. Steve claimed himself he knew God existed because he had a personal relationship with him. He is not willing to accept the fact that he may be wrong, for he knows that he's right.
Devin, not sure if you've heard of the "Theory of Inherent dishonest in Theism," it goes like this, Anyone attempting to defend God must be ignorant or dishonest or both when doing so.
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the main thing keeping me in my belief is the supernatural stuff, sure if it isnt real it is completely wishful thinking, i freely admit that, and ya know, when wishful thinking makes your life better, well hey, ya only live once, now that is not a defense to keep believing such things, but atleast the people who are totally drenched in wishful thinking can lead a good life, just piss some people off along the way, i actually was a member of a bible cult called the "berean christadelphians" they are much like the jehovahs witnesses, my dad is a top dog in the christadelphian sect, and i came from a southern baptist background to believing the christadelphian stuff, in that time many things seemed super natural, but they have the potential to just be coincidence, as in, i was high on drugs and down in the dumps (how most testimonies are) and i get a phone call from a friend that was the person who lead me to christ... then i pray, get back on my feet, and turn away from the drug abuse... but after i had thoughts of leaving the cult, i went to a charismaniac church near where i lived in california, and a man walked up to me who i'd never seen before or spoken to, and he told me all about my relationship with my father, about how i almost esteemed him as a prophet in my life, and about many other specific things going on in my family at the time, then he paused, and looked at me deep in my eyes, and said "the trinity is real, anyone who says otherwise lacks in the truth", and the crazy thing about that is in order to be a christadelphian, you have to deny the trinity doctrine, so yeah, i've had a lot of whacky religion stuff going on, and things that i believe are supernatural, i've experienced real healing before, even when i didnt believe or have faith that it would happen, i went to a benny hinn sort of guy in my hometown, and my jaw had been in pain for a month but i didnt have the money to have it checked out, he prayed for me, and it stopped hurting, afterwards i was being even more skeptical and thought that maybe i had an adrenaline rush when i was on the stage and that just displaced the pain, but i never felt pain in my jaw again, so yeah, i'm tellin yall all of this, just so you could see, as i'm sure many of you had similar experiences in your search for "god", some of those things i just cant seem to deny, cuz they happened to me, of course that isnt legit evidence with documentation, but that has kept me where i'm at today, so yeah, we'll see
-devin
i know this is poor grammar and stuff, i just wrote what has been on my mind recently
I haven't heard the show yet, obviously, but from what I gather here... This Steve character seems much like the rest of the brainwashed fundamentalist xtians. When certain experiences happen in one's life (say for example, the loss of a loved one; a wife), it can be a very emotionally destructive event. If you're a xtian, you will take those negative feelings; all the pain and suffering, and channel to some kind of emotionally stable numbing ideology, such as a strong belief in goodness, purpose and meaning, ie...god. It is a coping mechanism. Well some people, seem to take this to the nth degree....becoming "warriors" of god, because if not, all that pain and even hate, will be revived.... so they stay in their eutopian world, a world full of goodness, away from the pain and hate......they start to loose touch with reality because now, they are living for a cause, and if you take that cause away from them, their walls crumble, everything that they believed to be truth...for MOST of their lives becomes null and void, essentially making their life null and void. People cannot take that chance, so they will ignore the truth in order to conserve, what they perceive as meaning. The light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. This has been known by theist leaders and is used....and exploited to convince the masses that god is the only way to happiness. Xtianity and theism feed on human desperation, human pain, human feelings....that's why it works so well. It is a well adapted virus.
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Let me guess, you thanked God for getting you back on your feet, thereby dismissing the possibility that you did it yourself. Consider that YOU climbed out of the hole, and all it took was an inspiration.
But that inspiration could have been anything. For you, it was a friend telling you that some person called Jesus Christ, whom you've never met, is helping you along. I won't deny for a second that faith (the idea of the supernatural, not the supernatural itself) helped you overcome hardship, but I believe you sacrificed something indispensable, your intellectual honesty.
There is a question I ask everyone who claims that God carried them. Wasn't it God who let them fall in the first place?
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
bingo, and that is the fallacy.
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i appreciate the welcome, that is one thing i have noticed on this side of the atheist agnostic world, being welcomed rather than turned away, when at times i have been turned away from churches... and i went as a christian... so yeah, anyways, what i was talking about getting something out of steve's "knowledge of the truth" teachings is that he just talks about what its like when you find out something is true, and how to evaluate what is true, he mentions god and christianity in it a few times, but the entire series follows the line of thought that is presented in the first 2 teachings of the series, mainly he goes philosophically deep into what "truth" means, and i think its good for any one to listen to.
the crazy thing about the camp workers and the school administrators is that they are human beings intelligent in particular pieces of life on earth, and they see that it is the childs best interest to get them "indoctrinated", i looked into this from a christian perspective about people growing up in other religions, and i thought about if it happened to me, growing up believing one thing so strongly because mommy and daddy told me it was true my whole life... then one day being laughed at because all the stuff i believed whole-heartedly was completely false, a book with a good example of that is called "death of a guru" its about a boy who grew up under his father's guidance, and his father was a guru who supposedly did a lot of miraclulous stuff, and as the boy followed him he came to realize the faults in the philosophy his dad taught, its a good read, and a short book, but it is written by a christian, so yall may not like it.
actually this makes me think of a psychological question "how can you teach an old man, an entirely new/true philosophy... and it be believed?" , i'm gonna have to go to the psychology forum to post it
-devin
ps, i have no fears of being converted, i got to full believe one thing before i can put it away and believe another thing
And it evolves! :smt047
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No problem, it's much better than walking into a cavernous cave and preaching - only to have it echo back
Truth to me is this: There is your truth, their truth, and the truth. Nobody has it entirely correct. Once we admit this and begin to search for the truth together, we are more likely to find it. Or - I hate arguing because it gets in the way of discussion
Like I said, some people think that they are infallibly correct. Believing what they believe, I would be inclined to consider the possibility that the indoctrinators believe that they are acting in the child's best interests. They are not. Children are genetically programmed to accept information without question (if they didn't, they would be dead), a gigantic amount of trust is required to ensure the child's best interests, they need to be taught to think critically as they develop. These people are acting completely contrary to the child's best interests.
It's not as hard as you think to abandon a certain teaching/philosophy and adopt another.
I remember watching The Root of All Evil by Richard Dawkins (a documentary) and I remember him telling a story of an old professor (60+) at Oxford who had spent 15 years working on a scientific theory, he thoroughly believed in it's accuracy. Then a much younger man visited Oxford and gave a lecture completely debunking the old man's theory. The old professor walked to the front of the room and shook the young man's hand and said "I wish to thank you, I have been wrong for 15 years".
Another example (from The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, a book) was a new graduate student straight out of a small fundamentalist Christian college in America who somehow got accepted to their Oxford program. He (a young earth, indoctrinated creationist student) was required as part of the program to attend some of Dawkins' lectures on Evolutionary theory. By the end of it, he simply said to Dawkins "Gee, this evolution thing, it really makes sense."
The point is, with the right education, people can develop the same level of critical thinking and skepticism that scientists use every day in their search for a more accurate version of the truth.
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
I am familiar with dawkins stuff, i've checked into him and his stuff for a while now, i just posted a a topic in the psychology thread about this subject, called "exchanging the mind", hopefully it makes sense
-devin
like all good systems do.
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When the ONLY evidence you can bring up for your assertion on the Gospel accounts being anywhere near eye-witnesses is from a self-proclaimed(!) liar written over 300 years after the death of the person they are supposed to be proving true, (Eusebius quoting Papias) and that is the only evidence you can bring to the table...and then you state with some authority that this "evidence" should be sufficient, you are an ignorant person. This is simply fact.
If Steve Gregg can not understand this fact, or chooses to ignore it, by whatever means, he is still ignorant, and suffes from the Inherent Dishonesty within Theism problem. This is why I called him ignorant on the show, and why I still consider him ignorant now. Until he has the intellectual dishonest to admit that the evidence for his beliefs/case is nowhere near substantial enough to take seriously, he remains dishonest.
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Hi Rook.
He tried to claim on the infidelguy show that there were no references to events in 70 AD in the gospels... so this meant that the gospels were written prior to 70 AD.
In response, I cited his own gospels back to him - specifically Mark chapter 13 to him, which clearly references the sacking of the temple of jerusalem in 70 AD.... His sole response was that this reference was a 'prophecy' and that he had the epistemic right to just assume it was based on faith!
The problem, however, is that he was on the show to discuss his reasons as to why he held the bible to be true... if his 'reason' was that he took it on faith, then he'd have to concede he has no reason at all....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Our indirect discussion, posted on the infidelguy site:
http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopicp-431302-.html#431302
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
His dishonesty doesn't surprise me one bit. Just wait until you hear the episode. Heh. We really did square off and it was pretty brutal.
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Excellent!
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I wanna hear it.
Right now.
Um... now?
Hrmm. This mind-over-matter crap isn't working for me.
-=Grim=-
No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.
hey fellas, i was getting e-mails each time there was a response on here when the forum first started out, but i guess they stopped, so i'm just now checking it out after what... maybe a month or so? so yeah, i'm back over here, i talked with todangst on the IG forum for a while, i'm also active in a few other forums here on the good ole internet, so after i hear the show, i'm sure i'll be back in here
-devin
"I don't think any disrespect was meant towards you. Sometimes our posts are absent the special sugar coated topping you might want to help make them easier to swallow."
"How many other fans do you think Steve spoke to last night after his appearance in which he said he was going to sleep, due to jet lag?"
i'm a new user here... just today. i'm here to ask my questions and to read other peoples ideas answers. i'm not closed to any possibility.
but i would like to point this out... when you flat out make a statement like, "what are you... his son?" several times and then say, "yeah, the guy was intelligent... for a christian," you are making an overly personal, direct insult at a person by directly associating him with someone else that you don't hold in very high esteem (to put it nicely, as your opinions of the other dude don't seem to be very great at all).
anyway.
sorry if i come off bitching, but i'm just all about fairness, and if this site doesn't seem to offer that, then i'm obviously in the wrong place.
and if this is really a rational response, then maybe it should at least not jump to conclusions.
yrlk
In my opinion, the squad was nicer than I would have been. If I spent so much time, effort, and money to build a good show and then one of the guests started mouthing off about the show prior to airing then it would have been a long night to rebuild another show and take the asshole out in favor of filler.
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The whole Steve Gregg appearance has had a cloud of "pull the show" in favor of anything else. Devin, the young man who is just in love with Steve, has been pushing for months and months to IG and to us to host him on the show.
He announced Steve Greggs appearance to the IG audience before IG did. In 8 years of IG broadcasting, that has never happened once! (not that I can recall at least)
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Nothing wrong with saying that.
It was just a question.
That wasn't a statement, it was a question. Notice the question mark?
You summed it up fairly well. He was rather intelligent for a Christian. Did you know that Christians tend to be less intelligent than atheists? Read this.
Stick around, this place is fair, and you aren't coming off as bitching. Speaking of fair, we just added a Christian moderator to our ranks today. (one that actually comes off as intelligent)
Notice, those assumed conclusions were posed as questions.
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"Stick around, this place is fair, and you aren't coming off as bitching. Speaking of fair, we just added a Christian moderator to our ranks today. (one that actually comes off as intelligent)" - Sapient
Huh?
<<<< confused.
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I was talking to yrlk. And we added a Christian mod in the new "Kill em with Kindness" forum.
If you're still confused, let me know on what specifically.
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I'll get back to you on that. lol.
So there is a rational christian moderator in the 'kill them with kindness' forum. ok. umm. I'll go read.
me go read now. must light path to understanding. me say no more here.
lol.
<<<< might be a cave atheist.
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again it was posted on steve's site, i noticed it wasnt on the ig site, so hey, why not put it on there? i appreciate you saying that i am "in love" with steve, i simply agree with him, i'm not saying that you guys are "in love" with richard carrier, or richard dawkins
i am listening to the show right now, the guys at steves site are saying yall got owned, but then again, they're theists, so i'm listening for myself to see
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1026
A little too much, for you, unfortunately. He's compelling I'll give ya that.
Please feel free. Better yet, I'll do it for you... I'm in love with Richard Carrier and Richard Dawkins! :smt049
Cute. I just read the thread and didn't see the term "owned."
I (personally) got props from them for the most part.
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so they didnt use the term owned, they talked about yall not doing so well,
i just got done listening to the show, it was good but subjects jumped all over the place, so much to cover over such a short time, yall should do another one just focusing on one subject, like the gospels, or on pauls writings
-devin
After hearing the show, I must say that the man needs some more time for research.
Rook's Galatians example was very good and Mr. Gregg's response lost him the debate entirely.
Another one down. IMO.
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It takes somebody of rational mind to see that, however.
One point that jumped out at me was Steve's insistence "that science is inapplicable to one-off unique events".
That is emphatically and definitely wrong.
It is a question of plausibility, consistency, studying whatever traces may be left, which are all subject to analysis by many different tools today..
Otherwise cosmology, astronomy, archaeology, and forensic science are all wastes of time!!!
If we only have human tesimony and memory, and the events are extremely unlikely from all other evidence, we can merely speculate - THAT'S IT!!!
On the basis of that show Steve Gregg is both arrogant and deeply deluded!!
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology