Rapture End Times Madness

MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Rapture End Times Madness

I think most of us are aware of all the noise certain Christians in the US make about the appending apocalypse. It's scary to think that, as Sam Harris put it

Quote:
...if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud...
These fears have been discussed before. But I want to talk about another danger.

I was taught that we were in "the end times" all throughout childhood. When I was around 11-12, this was in the early 1990's, my dad was telling my family that he thought that things were going to be radically different in a couple years. I took this to mean that the end was coming soon. I never thought that I would every graduate from high school.

This prospect scared me to death. I knew that I should've been, as a Christian, happy about this, but I couldn't. I was scared that Jesus was going to be displeased with me when he came back, and I was disappointed that I wasn't going to live a full life. Thinking, as a child, that my life is going to be short was traumatizing.

I just want to get this out here. Christians use more than the fear of hell to keep people in line. And this is an Irrational Precept that needs to be put to rest.


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
The trouble with that

The trouble with that premise is that the apocalypse Irrational Precept is a far greater danger to the planet, and one has only to look at the history of the Middle East to see that.

 No Abrahamic should be permitted to run that region anymore, because peace there is against their religion.  Buddhists are better equipped, tenet-wise, to run the place in preference to ANY Abrahamic.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Good thing us Catholics do

Good thing us Catholics do not accept the Rapture Smiling

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: Good thing

StMichael wrote:
Good thing us Catholics do not accept the Rapture Smiling

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Yeah, the Protestants tend to go a little wacky on their interpretations of the Bible. Makes the Catholics look pretty sane sometimes. Eye-wink


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
Everybody believes what they

Everybody believes what they want to believe--this is true. Therefore it follows that there is no such thing as an Absolute Truth, even though that's what Catholics believe in, albeit not until 1870.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Technically the rapture

Technically the rapture isn't even in the Bible. And - think about it - the idea of everyone on Earth rising up in the air to heaven would only work if the Earth was flat.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Quote: Everybody believes

Quote:
Everybody believes what they want to believe--this is true. Therefore it follows that there is no such thing as an Absolute Truth, even though that's what Catholics believe in, albeit not until 1870.

Then you agree with me that it is true that God exists! Wonderful!

However, the Catholic Church believed there was absolute truth far before 1870. Such a statement is ludicrous. Not to say that such a thing actually took place, but why would you say that we tortured people, forcing them to believe what we did, if we didn't think it was objectively true?

However, in response to Matt, I would agree that the Rapture is not supported by Scripture, but the Protestants try to support it according to: "For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever." So, of course, they think it is Biblical. Also, there does not seem to be a necessity to say that the earth is flat if people are lifted into the air. I mean, balloons fly up into the air, and when we say that we do not mean that the earth is thus flat.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
StMichael, I'm curious about

StMichael, I'm curious about how the Catholic Church interprets 1 Thessalonians 4:16. I'd appreciate the perspective.

Most of what I heard of Catholicism from other members of the churches I used to go to was very negative, and probably very biased.


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
The obvious interpretation

The obvious interpretation of the text, which by the way was accepted even by the Protestant Reformers and most Christans until about 1890, was that this refers clearly to the final coming of Christ, when all men are transformed in a "twinkling of an eye" and the dead are resurrected, the saints being "caught up" into Paradise to be with God in the recreated universe forever.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: The

StMichael wrote:
The obvious interpretation of the text, which by the way was accepted even by the Protestant Reformers and most Christans until about 1890, was that this refers clearly to the final coming of Christ, when all men are transformed in a "twinkling of an eye" and the dead are resurrected, the saints being "caught up" into Paradise to be with God in the recreated universe forever.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Yes, obvious. I guess it's more of difference of how its supposed to happen, e.g. all the "tribulation" stuff.

I assume that the 1890 reference is about Darby?


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Yes, it was a reference to

Yes, it was a reference to John Darby. I think he actually got started in the 1820s or so, so don't quote me on that. I just estimated Smiling

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: Quote:

StMichael wrote:
Quote:
Everybody believes what they want to believe--this is true. Therefore it follows that there is no such thing as an Absolute Truth, even though that's what Catholics believe in, albeit not until 1870.
Then you agree with me that it is true that God exists! Wonderful!

Be kind enough to cease misrepresenting me and my position.  Thank you.  This is a case where you invented something you wanted to believe regardless of how false it is.

Quote:
However, the Catholic Church believed there was absolute truth far before 1870. Such a statement is ludicrous.

You're trying to tell me that all those Ecumenical Councils discussed nothing, decided on nothing, and were just big parties thrown for their repsective Popes and emperors.  Got it.

The year 1870 was the year the Catholic Church did away with functional Ecumenical Councils and proclaimed the Pope to be infallible.  The Pope wasn't considered infallible until the considerably late date of 1870.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: The

StMichael wrote:
The obvious interpretation of the text, which by the way was accepted even by the Protestant Reformers and most Christans until about 1890, was that this refers clearly to the final coming of Christ, when all men are transformed in a "twinkling of an eye" and the dead are resurrected, the saints being "caught up" into Paradise to be with God in the recreated universe forever. Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom, StMichael

And to which paradise would that be--the first heaven, the second heaven, or the third heaven? 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
MrRage wrote: StMichael,

MrRage wrote:
StMichael, I'm curious about how the Catholic Church interprets 1 Thessalonians 4:16. I'd appreciate the perspective. Most of what I heard of Catholicism from other members of the churches I used to go to was very negative, and probably very biased.

It's painful to watch you stop with just 16. 17 is more to the point about how Jesus is over 2,000 years late in bringing his porkchops. Eye-wink 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Quote: You're trying to

Quote:
You're trying to tell me that all those Ecumenical Councils discussed nothing, decided on nothing, and were just big parties thrown for their repsective Popes and emperors. Got it.

They obviously were concerned with defining objective truth, which is what you claimed they didn't acknowledge. If you meant that you are arguing that they did not believe the Pope infallible, that is a different matter and you ought to have clearly said it.

Quote:

The year 1870 was the year the Catholic Church did away with functional Ecumenical Councils and proclaimed the Pope to be infallible. The Pope wasn't considered infallible until the considerably late date of 1870.

That is total nonsense. The Pope was clearly considered infallible prior to that. Of course, I would argue that such was the faith of the Apostles from Christ's institution, but it is at least clear that such exists even as early as the writings of Saint Clement, the third Pope. This, however, likewise supports my contention that the Pope's infallibility was a matter held by the Apostles themselves, as St. Clement was ordained and trained directly by Saint Peter himself. Even if this is not persuasive enough, the evidence that the early Church considered the Pope both supreme head of the Church and the infallible supreme authority in matters of doctrine is very clearly held in very early documents.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


Thandarr
Posts: 117
Joined: 2006-12-15
User is offlineOffline
I need that bumper sticker

I need that bumper sticker that says "In Case of Rapture Can I Have Your Car?"

Thandarr


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
Sorry, but your statement

Sorry, Michael, but your statement doesn't jibe with your church's history of record, particularly that period of time when there was more than one Pope in charge at the same time.

Earliest Ecumenical Councils were presided over by emperors to ensure that whatever canon was decided on agreed with requirements of empire. Your church has even canonized emperors as saints.

Try again.

============

Oh--I just noticed your citation of that canonic mythology stating that the Catholic Church dates back to the most infallible St. Peter.  You and your church repeatedly overlook that part of Acts where Paul kicks Peter to the curb.  Clearly even Peter wasn't infallible, and it's indellibly matter of biblical record, in your own holy book. 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

MrRage wrote:
StMichael, I'm curious about how the Catholic Church interprets 1 Thessalonians 4:16. I'd appreciate the perspective. Most of what I heard of Catholicism from other members of the churches I used to go to was very negative, and probably very biased.

It's painful to watch you stop with just 16. 17 is more to the point about how Jesus is over 2,000 years late in bringing his porkchops. Eye-wink

That and Mark 9:1:

Quote:
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Yes, I know the kingdom of God is interpreted as the church, but how is it that "some...will not taste death" when the the church was established in most of Jesus' audience's lifetimes?


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
Quote: Sorry, Michael, but

Quote:
Sorry, Michael, but your statement doesn't jibe with your church's history of record, particularly that period of time when there was more than one Pope in charge at the same time.

Yes it does. During that period of time, there were antipopes, but only one true Pope. The fact that a schism occurred does not mean the Pope is thus fallible.

Quote:

Earliest Ecumenical Councils were presided over by emperors to ensure that whatever canon was decided on agreed with requirements of empire. Your church has even canonized emperors as saints.

OK, the first statement is false. The first ecumenical council of Nicea, which I suppose is what you make reference to, was convened by the emperor, but presided over by the acting Apostolic Legate Hosius of Cordova, with the Roman priests Victor and Vincentius as assistants. Further, the council required confirmation of its decrees from the Holy See to be promulgated. The same was true of all the early seven councils. Even in the book of Acts, it was presided over by Saint Peter.

Quote:
You and your church repeatedly overlook that part of Acts where Paul kicks Peter to the curb. Clearly even Peter wasn't infallible, and it's indellibly matter of biblical record, in your own holy book.

It has nothing to do with an infallible decision, but with bad example and practice. There is nothing which ensures that the Pope does everything perfectly, only that when he teaches universally, ex cathedra, on faith and morals, it is always correct. Saint Peter was not teaching at all in a definitive way. He merely sat with the Jews. Saint Paul corrected him. Saints throughout history have corrected popes in this way too, like Saint Catherine of Siena. No big deal. It has nothing to do with infallibility.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: Good thing

StMichael wrote:
Good thing us Catholics do not accept the Rapture Smiling Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom, StMichael

Yep, you are just fundy lite. Less tyrany than your average deity.

I've read your book. The "God" character is not a nice guy to people who reject him and dont obey him. You are cherry picking because the thought of a final genocidal battle where Jesus rids the world of the undisirables is a sick thought to you.

Funny how you have more morals than the words in the book you selectively reject even though THEY ARE THERE!

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
Quite so, Brian.

Quite so, Brian.

As is quite evident from Mike's persistant twistings of recorded history, he's clearly a graduate of The Aquinas School of Rationalizations R Us, with full license to re-write history to suit his church's canon.

 For giggles, try asking Mike about the canon in his Bible's book, "Bel and the Dragon". It's a book that the Protestant Bible (KJAV-based) doesn't have.  Or ask him about where Psalm 151 went to.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
The second coming of Christ

The second coming of Christ is not genocidal at all, and I don't know where you are getting that. Point to some evidence to support your claim. I have not rejected, nor do I reject, anything written in Scripture and I don't know why you think so. I do not, of course, accept the Protestant interpretation of Scripture, but that does not mean that I reject Scripture.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
I do not twist history.

I do not twist history. Instead of merely saying that I do, prove it.
Second, the canon of the Catholic Church was determined by the Church. The Protestants rejected these books of the so-called Apocrapha during the Reformation. Our canon has had these things in it since Christ's time.
The 151st Psalm has long been considered outside the number of the Psalms (in fact, it says so in the affixed title). It was found in the Septaugint and was in many copies of the Greek Scriptures, which is why the Greek church has retained it.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13659
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: The second

StMichael wrote:
The second coming of Christ is not genocidal at all, and I don't know where you are getting that. Point to some evidence to support your claim. I have not rejected, nor do I reject, anything written in Scripture and I don't know why you think so. I do not, of course, accept the Protestant interpretation of Scripture, but that does not mean that I reject Scripture. Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom, StMichael

Nice dodge there bud. Keep fooling yourself, maybe we will get that mushroom cloud.

I am not disscussing YOUR interpretation. I am saying that their are words in the bible that discribe a violent end and there are words that say that Jesus will come back and violently defeat "evil".

Dont blame me for what was written. I didnt write it.

I AM TRYING TO GET YOU TO GET THE WAX OFF YOUR ROSE COLORED EYES!

Weither YOU like it or not, there ARE both Muslims and Christians who because of reading the printed word, believe that their respecive super heros will fight each other in a bloody final battle and defeat all other challengers.

I never claimed that you believe it. I am saying that the words are there in that book.

You keep ignoring that like most Muslims and Christians and that ignorance will get us all killed. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
I did say "history of

I did say "history of record" and there are many sources for that; any reasonable person can take his/her pick of a number of these sources and see how the Catholic version of history fails to jibe with any of it.

Lots of records, lots of sources, and they all disagree with the Catholic Church. 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
But there is no mention of

But there is no mention of Christ killing all other people on earth. There is no mention of genocide. I'm not dodging you, I'm asking. Where does it mention genocide? Merely saying it does does not make it so.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


Sjet
Posts: 8
Joined: 2006-07-03
User is offlineOffline
MrRage wrote: I think most

MrRage wrote:
I think most of us are aware of all the noise certain Christians in the US make about the appending apocalypse. It's scary to think that, as Sam Harris put it
Quote:
...if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud...
These fears have been discussed before. But I want to talk about another danger. I was taught that we were in "the end times" all throughout childhood. When I was around 11-12, this was in the early 1990's, my dad was telling my family that he thought that things were going to be radically different in a couple years. I took this to mean that the end was coming soon. I never thought that I would every graduate from high school. This prospect scared me to death. I knew that I should've been, as a Christian, happy about this, but I couldn't. I was scared that Jesus was going to be displeased with me when he came back, and I was disappointed that I wasn't going to live a full life. Thinking, as a child, that my life is going to be short was traumatizing. I just want to get this out here. Christians use more than the fear of hell to keep people in line. And this is an Irrational Precept that needs to be put to rest.

 

wow lol even when I was a little kid I was told things like that but I was intelligent enough to not believe them-or not care for that matter. Survival of the fittest I guess works there.


Clara Listensprechen
Clara Listensprechen's picture
Posts: 117
Joined: 2007-02-02
User is offlineOffline
StMichael wrote: But there

StMichael wrote:
But there is no mention of Christ killing all other people on earth. There is no mention of genocide. ...

John The Baptist called it the laying of an axe to the root. Jesus said that there will be a time when women will say "Blessed are the barren" etc.  The intimation that something worse than genocide is what the End Days are all about, as in people will beg for the mountains to fall on them, beg for death, as a better option.

 You don't really read that book you believe in, do you.

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


StMichael
Theist
StMichael's picture
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-20
User is offlineOffline
The end times, however, are

The end times, however, are not genocide. People will fear God because of the weight of their sins, but nobody is being massacred by God. God punishes the wicked, but not by killing them. It is rather foolish to maintain that. The end times are likewise the punishment of the wicked - the final recompense for people who have committed atrocities on their fellow human beings. The final justice. Not genocide at all.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Sjet wrote: MrRage

Sjet wrote:

MrRage wrote:
I think most of us are aware of all the noise certain Christians in the US make about the appending apocalypse. It's scary to think that, as Sam Harris put it
Quote:
...if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud...
These fears have been discussed before. But I want to talk about another danger. I was taught that we were in "the end times" all throughout childhood. When I was around 11-12, this was in the early 1990's, my dad was telling my family that he thought that things were going to be radically different in a couple years. I took this to mean that the end was coming soon. I never thought that I would every graduate from high school. This prospect scared me to death. I knew that I should've been, as a Christian, happy about this, but I couldn't. I was scared that Jesus was going to be displeased with me when he came back, and I was disappointed that I wasn't going to live a full life. Thinking, as a child, that my life is going to be short was traumatizing. I just want to get this out here. Christians use more than the fear of hell to keep people in line. And this is an Irrational Precept that needs to be put to rest.

 

wow lol even when I was a little kid I was told things like that but I was intelligent enough to not believe them-or not care for that matter. Survival of the fittest I guess works there.

But, where you told things like that by your father? By people you trusted? I know it looks silly on the outside, but it's no laughing matter to me.