The Moon Split in Two?

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The Moon Split in Two?

It's a mighty claim the Muslims are making to prove the Qu'ran is the divine word of Allah. A Muslim on YouTube sent me this following letter as 'proof'.

I did a search online to try and find any scientific anything to 'support' their claim but with no such luck. Does anyone know of any links to support/debunk this claim?

 Well, here's the letter:

sorry for being soo dumb, i'm going to send you this article in two, ok buddy.

can you do me a favor? i would like to ask you a serious question and realy think about it befor you answer me.

we will start from the beginning, why do you not beliece in a creator.

next try not to read abdullah yusef alis version of the quran, try another one.

umm, you said that you wanted references for the verses that you heard, cool. just google miracles of the quran by harun yahya and you will get the page with all the numbers of verses and you will see much more then what was on the video.

ok now for the article, enjoy.

Splitting of the Moon, an Amazing Story




Thanks to izziddin@shahadah.net and islamisthetruth@care2.com for the story.

In a TV interview with the Egyptian Geologist Dr. Zaghloul Annajar, the anchor asked him about the verse:

"The Hour has drawn near,and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon)." (Quran 54:1) whether it contains any Quranic scientific astounding facts?

Dr. Zaghloul answered saying that he has a story to tell about this verse.

He started explaining that at a time he delivered a lecture at Cardiff University in the West of Britain. The attendees included both Muslims and non-Muslims. A vital dialogue was taking place around scientific facts included in the Noble Quran. During the course of the lecture, a Muslim young man stood asking me, Sir Do you see in the Saying of Al Haq Tabarak wa Ta`ala (Allah the Truth) may He be Exalted - and he referred to the above mentioned verse - any indication to the scientific facts included in the Quran? Dr. Najjar answered: No because scientific astounding discoveries are interpreted through science whereas a miracle is something supernatural, which may not be interpreted through the usual. The splitting of the moon is a miracle, which happened to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in order to prove his prophecy. Tangible miracles are only a testimony of truth for those who witnessed it. It is only that the incident was mentioned in Quran and Prophet's Sunnah that made us believe other wise we Muslims of this era would have never believed in it. In addition that we know for sure that Allah is most capable of anything. At that point Dr. Zaghloul narrated the story of moon splitting as included in Sunnah books.

He said, Sunnah books tell that five years before the immigration of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) from Mecca to Medina, a group of people from the tribe of Quraish came challenging him saying: Oh Muhammad if you were really a Prophet and a Messenger bring to us a miracle to establish this fact. So he asked them what do you want? They said in an effort to complicate matters for him: split the moon for us. The Messenger of ALLAH (PBUH) stood supplicating to Allah to support him and grant him victory in this hard situation. Allah may He be Exalted inspired him to sign towards the moon with his finger. Immediately, the moon cleft into two parts standing far from each other for several hours then cling back together. The pagans started claiming: Oh Muhammad (PBUH) practiced witchcraft on us.

At this point some of the wise men explained that magic would only affect the attendees whereas it can not maintain influence on everybody in general. They waited for travelers who were coming back from their journeys. The pagans harried up to the borders of Mecca in anticipation to meet the travelers. When the first arrivals appeared, they asked them did you see anything extraordinary happened to the moon? The travelers answered yes on the night (X) we saw the moon splitting into two parts which remained asunder for sometime then reattached. Upon this statement, a number of the group believed while the rest remained pagans. Therefore, the verse explains "The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). * And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: This is continuous magic. *They belied the Verses of Allah - this Quran), and followed their own lusts. And every matter will be settled according to the kind of deeds: good deeds will take their doers to Paradise and similarly evil deeds will take their doers to Hell." (Quran 54:1-3) until the end of the verses which were revealed in this regard.

Dr. Najjar continued that at this point a British Muslim young man introduced himself as Daoud Moussa Peetcock head of the British Islamic Party. He carried on saying sir if you allow me I would like to add on this issue? I said please do. He explained saying: At the time when I was searching in religions (before he embraced Islam), a Muslim student gave me as a present the translation of the meaning of Quran. I thanked him and took it home. The first Surat I came across when I opened the book, it was Chapter of the Moon I read "has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder". I said to myself, is this statement logical? Is it possible for the moon to split and then reattach what kind of power may cause this? The man explained that this verse made me reluctant to continue reading. I became busy with my life,yet ALLAH of course Knows how sincere I was about finding the truth.

So,one day ALLAH made me sit to watch TV. It was a talk show between a British commentator and three American astronautics specialists. The show host was blaming the scientists for spending thriftily over space trips at a time when earth is suffering hunger,poverty, diseases and backwardness. He was telling them, it would have been more feasible to allocate this kind of money for reconstruction of earth. To this argument, the three men answered defending their position that such technology is widely applied in many wakes of life such as medicine, industry and agriculture. They added that the money is never wasted but it rather supported the development of highly advanced technology.

During their dialogue, they mentioned the trip in which a man landed on the moon surface as it consumes the the largest cost which comes to more than US $100.000.000.000. The British TV anchor screamed saying what kind of thrift is this? A hundred thousand million dollars just to plant the American flag on the moon surface? They answered no; the objective was not to plant the American flag but rather to study the interior composition of the moon. We actually came to a finding that would cost us double folds of this amount for people to believe and yet they will never believe. The show host inquired what is this fact? They replied: One day this moon was split and then reattached. The show host again probed: how did you realize that? The scientists responded about finding a belt of transformed rocks cutting the moon from its surface to core and then to the surface again. The stated saying: we consulted with earth scientists and geologists who explained that such phenomenon would never occur unless this moon one day split and then reattached.

The British Muslim man said: I jumped out of my chair saying ALLAH (SWT) forced the Americans to spend more than a hundred billion dollars to prove to Muslims a a miracle that took place 1400 years ago for Mohamed (PBUH)? This religion must be the truth. He added: I went back to the Quran and recited Surat Al Qamar, which was my gate for accepting Islam.


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Make believe. There's no

Make believe. There's no evidence been turned up that the moon was split and resmelted together. That's something you'd probably be able to see from Earth in a telescope.

And I must comment on the mentioning of 100 billion to go to the moon. It wasn't just to go to the moon. It was to go to the moon 11 times. Not to mention all the other stuff they needed to do before pulling it off.

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I figured as much.... I

I figured as much.... I just was trying to figure out if someplace actually addressed these claims. Silly silly.

 Oh and that much to go to the moon 11 times - yeah. People are friggin stupid.


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Two things from teh Quran

Ok, I think the best way forward is to research yourself, there are two things I can think of at the moment:

1) Check the value of the speed of light, and do the following calculation: The Lunar orbit for 1000 years (12000 orbits) divided by the number of seconds in one day (take the exact scientific figure), then ask me and I will send you the verse from Quran.

2) May be have a bit of exposure about the different Stages of the formation of the baby. and again after you finish I will send you what the Quran has said.

Thanks

Mohammed

 

 


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Mohammed wrote:1) Check the

Mohammed wrote:

1) Check the value of the speed of light, and do the following calculation: The Lunar orbit for 1000 years (12000 orbits) divided by the number of seconds in one day (take the exact scientific figure), then ask me and I will send you the verse from Quran.

Count all of the hairs on your head, and then count all the hairs on your crotch.  Divide the number of hairs on your head by the numbers of hairs on your crotch, then ask me and I will send you a story about Peter Cottontail.

Instead of giving us tasks to do for a measley verse quote why don't you just give us the damn info and quit acting like its a fucking prize.  The quran is not scientific.  It's pathetic primitive fiction.

Go saw off someone's head with a rusty knife or blow yourself up to kill innocent people.  That's what Muslims do best.  Or just go read about your great prophet fucking children and then cross dressing in their clothing so he could have visions.  Fucking sick!  The entire religion is built on a base sickness from the very root of it.

Mohammed wrote:

2) May be have a bit of exposure about the different Stages of the formation of the baby. and again after you finish I will send you what the Quran has said.

Rot.  And I really wish I could put that in text to show the utter disgust I meant it in.  Fucking rot.

 

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I just love the stories

I just love the stories religious phreaks came up with way back when.  As with the new testament of the bible, the quran was not written during the time of mohammad.  It was written some three decades after his death if I recall correctly.  An attempt to bring authority to the the idea of a sword wielding, misogynistic, child molesting murderer who rides Pegasus to heaven.

Likely,  had the moon ever split in two for whatever reason (fantasy aside) Earth would have been destroyed along with it. The myths of the bible and the quran are no more convincing to a rational, intelligent human being than are stories of subhumans living in the sewers of New York.  These myths were made up to gain control over the masses if ignorant people, they're bullshit just like the religions that fostered them.

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Sounds like someone has been

Sounds like someone has been watching too much Thundar the Barbarian.


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Hi friend

 Hi friend. first you have to be more polite in your speach.  I wanna just say to you, that the reality you will certainly discover if you eagerly search and ask your God to show you the real religion is that Islam doesn't have anything to do with terrorism. The minority of the ones pretending islam or complying wrongly to Islamic pillars or the politicians who are trying to spread a false image of islam are the real terrorists who must be condemned. Without making this replying message longer, I suggest to you to go and search about Islam instead of making unbased jugements. My friend, I would really like you to be far away from the hell fire, an instead, being p awarded by good life in paradise. Put my words aside, and just go and search with an intention to reach the real religion and you will certainly get it. Sorry for the enlargement.


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The Moon Split in two: Image Source from NASA Official Website

NASA Official Website:

Go to following URL and click the search result “APOD: 2002 October 29 - A Lunar Rille - NASA

http://search.nasa.gov/search/search.jsp?nasaInclude=Ariadaeus+Rille+

So No one think it's been Photoshop Edited or something,

and this direct link below show that the picture came from NASA itself and still being a topic of research:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap021029.html

Scientists of NASA still Researching the Cause of this until today with no definitive results


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This is evidence that the

I have heard these features discussed on several science podcasts in recent weeks.

I think they are regarded as evidence that the moon has cooled and shrunk a little internally, leading to these faults appearing in the surface layers.

The effects of some real split into two would be vastly more than such locallsed stress fractures.

Bodies of the size of the moon do not 'split into two' like an apple - it would require a massive collision which would turn all of most of both bodies into molten material, which may condense into two or more bodies, or just a mass of rubble giving the Earth some rings like Saturn.

The Koran, Q'uran, or whatever you want to call it is at least as much a crock of shit as the Bible, may the Prophet burn in whatever passes for Hell in reality, or perhaps just say may he rot in his grave.

Oh, and please do not copy and paste from word-processors, convert to plain text first.

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Youness wrote: Hi friend.

Youness wrote:

 Hi friend. first you have to be more polite in your speach.  I wanna just say to you, that the reality you will certainly discover if you eagerly search and ask your God to show you the real religion is that Islam doesn't have anything to do with terrorism. The minority of the ones pretending islam or complying wrongly to Islamic pillars or the politicians who are trying to spread a false image of islam are the real terrorists who must be condemned. Without making this replying message longer, I suggest to you to go and search about Islam instead of making unbased jugements. My friend, I would really like you to be far away from the hell fire, an instead, being p awarded by good life in paradise. Put my words aside, and just go and search with an intention to reach the real religion and you will certainly get it. Sorry for the enlargement.

We do not "have to be more polite in [our] speach". You do not have to read stuff you find offensive.

There is no 'real religion' certainly not Islam. I passionately believe in searching for truth, without any pre-conceptions that it lies in some religion. All religions I have looked at, Christian, Islam, Judaism, even Buddhism (in its more religious versions at least), ancient Chinese beliefs, all seem to fall for the fundamental error that Truth can be found internally, by revelations, mystical experiences, feelings of communing with some supernatural entity, etc, rather than by honest investigation of reality outside the very limited world of our imagination.

I have personally watched people in their various temples, wats, mosques, cathedrals, from Thailand to China to Mongolia to Uzbekistan, Siberia, Russia, Prague, Italy, England, Egypt... and the lasting impression is that they are all just - people, seeking some sort of peace and understanding, but showing no more indication of achieving anything 'transcendental' than anyone else.

I just feel alternately amused and sad at these confident utterances by people with such a narrow and limited experience of the world, and little or no knowledge of our current real insights into the nature of the Universe and our own minds....

You should really apologize to readers here for asking us to read all this nonsense that is based on your religious beliefs, which are far more offensively pushing a bunch of stupid and nasty ideas, capable of inspiring real harm, not merely offending someone's tender personal sensibilities...

These attempts to find support in scientific discoveries for the fantasy stories from the Islamic texts ultimately prove the dishonesty inherent in such belief systems, where facts are selected and distorted to attempt to fit them to pre-conceived ideas, the very opposite of an honest search for Truth, which is why they offend me...

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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 OK, so you found a

 

OK, so you found a straight line on the moon. There are straight lines all over the moon running in every direction. There are also curvy lines and wiggly lines. Thing is that none of them run for more than a few hundred kilometers. So you certainly have not found god's great cosmic zipper or anything even close.

 

Another objection would deal with what would have happened to the two pieces. Bob came up with an impact scenario and I am in agreement with him most of the way. The thing is that if there was some sort of impact, it would have been large enough that it would have been seen all over half the world.

 

Where we have record of astronomical observations from Europe around the same time, they are always noted in Chinese and Indian records as well. Yet this one is real not because the Chinese did not notice this but because someone from two towns away talked about having seen it after they were asked if they indeed had? That shit would not stand up in a court of law in any civilized nation.

 

But hell, let's not even worry about the impact that obviously did not happen. If this was some weird even division of the moon with no other observations, that too would have been seen in China.

 

Not to mention that all materials have a natural limit for how large a pile one can make. For rocky materials, that would be as tall as the tallest mountains. On the Earth, there has been more than sufficient time and geological force to build mountains a hundred kilometers tall. The reason why we don't find them is because eventually, they get so tall that the weight of the material exceeds the breaking strength of the material at the base and then there will be landslides which limit the height of the mountains.

 

Granted, on the moon, weight is less of an issue but it is still an issue. Once divided, the two bodies will have individual centers of mass that are located somewhere off from the original center of mass. If the moon did somehow divide evenly, the material around the area of the split will crush to sand and the surface material will fall towards the new center of mass, resulting in two spherical bodies.

 

Now if the two spheres were reunited, the seam where they came together would certainly not be a straight line. Although it would go all the way around the moon like the seam on a tennis ball. We know for a fact that no such structure has been found and if it did exist, it would be pretty obvious even with a modest telescope.

 

Do you care to try again?

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Don't you guys realize that

Don't you guys realize that god/allah can do anything???

Obviously, he split the moon in half for the benefit of the observers and then put it back together and made it look like it did before! Oh, and during the process, he neutralized all of the laws of Nature and physics.

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DID NOT!

DID NOT!

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God is

 

no more than an abstract noun.

 

 

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The earth is splitting in

The earth is splitting in two as well:

 

And dinosaurs still exist:

And there's a Loch Ness Monster:

And big foot is on the loose:

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Hi you are now on the right way as you said

to find the truth as you said  "I passionately believe in searching for truth, without any pre-conceptions that it lies in some religion" it's very good to you to start do not even think about any relegions, just think about the absolute truth the absolute power governes the whole universe we live in, look at hte sky, the sun, the moon, the earth the stars and etc. every thing you see daily, do you think all those crated from nothing and goes to nothing or even those suddenly happend or found by Coincidence, I don not think so.

let me say somthing to you what do you think if the sun moved a lttle bit near to the earth or away from it or the earth does that also, what would happend? I think we may burn or frozen ! so who is told or govern this relation between the son and the earth from million of years till now? it's the absolute power as I said before.

another thing you can breath or you can hold your breath by your self, I mean that you can control your body by your own power or ability but what about your heart can you control it! by holding your heart beat or release it !,I don't think so who told to your heart work and work without any control from your side. it's also the absolute power.

 

if you look around your self, if you search as you say you will find many many quistions about things we can not find explanation for why it goes like this or work like that.

try to search about the absolute power govern thewhole univers we live in.

if you find it, you willreally find the one power belongs to one god ther is no god but him he did and does and will do the first without begining and the last without ending.

if you find him at that time you will find the right religion.

 

Thanks alot to you.


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SomeOneLoveTheLife wrote:so

SomeOneLoveTheLife wrote:
so who is told or govern this relation between the son and the earth from million of years till now? it's the absolute power as I said before.

Gravity. Gravity is not a "who."

SomeOneLoveTheLife wrote:
another thing you can breath or you can hold your breath by your self, I mean that you can control your body by your own power or ability but what about your heart can you control it! by holding your heart beat or release it !,I don't think so who told to your heart work and work without any control from your side. it's also the absolute power.

The heart is controlled by our brains, like with the medulla oblongata in our brainstem. We simply do not consciously control it; it is an autonomic function.

SomeOneLoveTheLife wrote:
if you look around your self, if you search as you say you will find many many quistions about things we can not find explanation for why it goes like this or work like that.

Just because you don't know how it works doesn't mean it's controlled by God. That is an argument from ignorance.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Hi Bob,Am a muslim, but

Hi Bob,

Am a muslim, but still doesn't believe in Miracles because GOD says in Quran to mankind to think and ponder rationally on the creation of this universe and not to follow blindly what the masses believe.

The tragedy with muslims is that they believe in Quran but don't want to understand it without any pre-conceptions and man-made dogmas that are popular in masses from centuries. 

Brother, 

 

The Qur´an is a Book consistent with itself and vehemently rejects any notions contrary to reason and to the changeless universal laws. Moreover, attainment of belief is a matter of choice. God does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing. Stunning the human intellect by means of ´miracles´ would counter this Divine law. 

Therefore, if people misinterpret any book ( Quran, Bible or any) to fit their Dogmas doesn't mean that the book is false.

I invite you to read the translation of Quran by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed at www.ourbeacon.com

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

Khan.

 


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Welcome to the forum.Khan

Welcome to the forum.

Khan wrote:
Hi Bob,

Am a muslim, but still doesn't believe in Miracles because GOD says in Quran to mankind to think and ponder rationally on the creation of this universe and not to follow blindly what the masses believe.

The tragedy with muslims is that they believe in Quran but don't want to understand it without any pre-conceptions and man-made dogmas that are popular in masses from centuries. 

Brother,

Islam is one of the most popular dogmas of the masses in the history of mankind. The claim that Muslims want to understand the Quran rationally without conforming to man made dogmas is so obviously false that it displays ignorance to even suggest it.

Khan wrote:
The Qur´an is a Book consistent with itself and vehemently rejects any notions contrary to reason and to the changeless universal laws.

On this forum, religious claims require more than naked assertions to be accepted.

Khan wrote:
Moreover, attainment of belief is a matter of choice. God does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing. Stunning the human intellect by means of ´miracles´ would counter this Divine law.

Hah.

If you're going to conflate "providing evidence" with "forcing," then by all means, force me.

 

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I tried reading the Quran

Khan wrote:

I invite you to read the translation of Quran by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed at www.ourbeacon.com

and found this --- it is a very long, boring book: originally written on bits of bark by people who "remembered" stuff or thought their bit of bark, leaf etc should be included.

Got as far as 2:1 "Alif. Lam. Mim."

The Skeptics Annotated Quran has an explanation that makes TOTAL sense to me and thereafter I stopped reading:

"Many surahs start with three Arabic letters. No one knows why. But I have a theory. The mysterious letters (Alif. Lam. Mim.) are the Quaranic equivalent of WTF"

 

What Would Jesus Drive? Well, God preferred an old Plymouth, "God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden in a Fury"; Moses was said to ride a motor bike, "the roar of Moses’ Triumph is heard in the hills", while the apostles would carpool in a Honda, "the apostles were in one Accord".


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

 

OK, so you found a straight line on the moon. There are straight lines all over the moon running in every direction. There are also curvy lines and wiggly lines. Thing is that none of them run for more than a few hundred kilometers. So you certainly have not found god's great cosmic zipper or anything even close.

 

Moon's circumference as found from answers.com is 10,921 Km.  What NASA calls 'rilles' are believed to have been ancient lava flows or surface cracks.  The most prominent one is 160 kms long.  Here's a good website on rilles http://www.rense.com/general71/p1.htm.

So 160 Kms is a little more then 1% of the moon's surface.  Let me put this in perspective.  Imagine the moon to be the size of a basketball.  Now take your pinky's nail and make an indent in the ball.  If your pinky is about .3 inches then that's roughly over 1% of the circumference of the ball's 28 inches.  

Someone check my math, it's very late and I'm tired.

If you saw a ball with a nail indent in it, would you assume that it was split in two and reassembled?  I mean the sheer idiocy of the claim aside, there's nothing there to even hang a story.  The article is very poorly written propaganda.   I can fart better propaganda after my wife's famous chilly. (and I'm not even that good a farter, you should hear my dad)

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Khan wrote:I invite you to

Khan wrote:

I invite you to read the translation of Quran by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed at www.ourbeacon.com

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

Khan.

 

I started reading it, didn't get very far but will take it up again when I have more time.  If you wish to discuss it please start a new topic, I would love to see you rationalize the Quran.  Who knows maybe I'll worship at your mosque after you convince me of the one true god.  As long as there's no unforgivable sin that I've already committed, in which case I'm already screwed.  I already don't eat bacon, but eat every other pig part... not sure if that's a problem.  Also I'm allergic to explosives and BS... 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Khan wrote:Hi Bob,Am a

Khan wrote:

Hi Bob,

Am a muslim, but still doesn't believe in Miracles because GOD says in Quran to mankind to think and ponder rationally on the creation of this universe and not to follow blindly what the masses believe.

The tragedy with muslims is that they believe in Quran but don't want to understand it without any pre-conceptions and man-made dogmas that are popular in masses from centuries. 

Brother, 

 

The Qur´an is a Book consistent with itself and vehemently rejects any notions contrary to reason and to the changeless universal laws. Moreover, attainment of belief is a matter of choice. God does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing. Stunning the human intellect by means of ´miracles´ would counter this Divine law. 

Therefore, if people misinterpret any book ( Quran, Bible or any) to fit their Dogmas doesn't mean that the book is false.

I invite you to read the translation of Quran by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed at www.ourbeacon.com

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

Khan.

 

Belief is NOT a matter of choice.

It is a conclusion we are persuaded by contemplation and study of what evidence we have available to us.

I have browsed parts of the Quran, and find it simplistic, repetitive, and in some places nasty and offensive, in others somewhat poetic, but with little evidence of serious insight or truth.

I gain far more knowledge and insight from contemporary texts, especially science. The Quran is only of interest in studying the background of that culture, which is not my main interest.

I also had in the past a long interchange on a forum with a muslim intent on convincing us of the revealed 'scientific' truths hidden in the text, and when I investigated them, they all failed to be real 'truths', and were far more readily explicable as references to practices, customs, and observations from the time of its writing.

Sorry.

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Well Khan

Khan wrote:

 

The Qur´an is a Book consistent with itself and vehemently rejects any notions contrary to reason and to the changeless universal laws. Moreover, attainment of belief is a matter of choice. God does not will to compel or coerce anyone into believing. Stunning the human intellect by means of ´miracles´ would counter this Divine law. 


Khan.

 

 

having read the Koran twice I am obliged to say that it's a pointed rip-off off the OT with a few homely bits of advice and a good many threats. A good many. There is no love in the Koran. The idea the Koran rejects ideas that are contrary to reason and changeless universal laws is interesting. What sort of reason are you talking about? and which laws??

And it's true there are miracles in the Koran. Only one woman is mentioned in the entire book - Mary the mother of jesus. There's a horseback ride to heaven, there's a flat earth policy. It goes on and on. There are lashings of miracles in the Koran. The entire book was allegedly dictated by Muhommed by Allah via Skype from beyond the universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:And

Atheistextremist wrote:

And it's true there are miracles in the Koran. Only one woman is mentioned in the entire book - Mary the mother of jesus. There's a horseback ride to heaven, there's a flat earth policy. It goes on and on. There are lashings of miracles in the Koran. The entire book was allegedly dictated by Muhommed by Allah via Skype from beyond the universe.

Sounds like a gay club flier Smiling Horseback rides, whips and chains and only one butchy chick at the door. Smiling  

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My question is, why would

My question is, why would anyone discuss astronomy with a person whose religion tells him that freash water and salt water won't mix?


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Rich Woods wrote:My question

Rich Woods wrote:

My question is, why would anyone discuss astronomy with a person whose religion tells him that freash water and salt water won't mix?

Why do atheists bother with anything theists say? If we don't we get stuck at the back of the bus, and or worse, they infest politics and run governments. At least with the ability to question, we wont stop everything, but we can prevent humanity from running us all off the cliff. Even our well intended believing friends and family can and are affected by the delusions of others.

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Ok, athiests. So the first

Ok, athiests. So the first cell was created by a random explosion? That is more than all the miracles that make fun of in all religions. The odds for a stupid explosion to create the fuirst simple cell is 0.00000..... (ten thousand zeros)...1

The odds are the same as frikin tornado going through a junk yard and creating an and running Jumbo Jet with all electronics, seats, and safety equipment.

So, you retards belive in science fiction and have your own stupid religion called "ahtiests".

Beyond the first cell, the a stupid other "circumstances" (ie, miracle) somehow lead to the creation of smart cells that can recreate themselves, then another miracle lead to , then, then, then you got DNA!!! Are you people this dumb?!!

All the brains cells you don't use, all the body parts you misuse that work perfectly together; with each gland running better than a German factory; and all the brain interpretations of sight, sound, memory, all happened by chance, you dumb asses?!!

A freak coincidence created "plants" inside your body that engineers in Intel, Microsoft, Rolls Royce, GM, Nokia, Kodak, Oracle, can only dream of doing in machines millions of years later?! Are you that dumb?!!

When was the last time nature created a frikin house with doors windows and furniture, or show me one thing that nature "builds" you morons?!!

Nature destroys and does not build. You are as dumb as someone thinking the Pyramids happend by nature. And the Pyramids are far more simple than living beings.

So the next time you think you are smart and that the idea that we are created by a higher power, go look at your dumb self in the mirror and ask yourself how stupid chance allows you to see your idiotic self in the mirror. And by the way, your mirror was created by a man and no nature can created even a dumb mirror so you can see your dumb self.

Cheers!


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Hi, welcome to the

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Ihab wrote:
So the first cell was created by a random explosion?

Yep. First, it was like kaboom! Then, it was like, tada!

Ihab wrote:
The odds for a stupid explosion to create the fuirst simple cell is 0.00000..... (ten thousand zeros)...1

Oh, cool. How did you get that number?

Ihab wrote:
have your own stupid religion called "ahtiests".

Correct, "ahtiesm" is my religion.

Ihab wrote:
Beyond the first cell, the a stupid other "circumstances" (ie, miracle) somehow lead to the creation of smart cells that can recreate themselves, then another miracle lead to , then, then, then you got DNA!!! Are you people this dumb?!!

Yeah, that's exactly what we believe. Nothing exploded and became everything. Then, a monkey had sex with a squirrel and gave birth to a human. You got us good.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Hi IHab

Ihab wrote:

Ok, athiests. So the first cell was created by a random explosion? That is more than all the miracles that make fun of in all religions. The odds for a stupid explosion to create the fuirst simple cell is 0.00000..... (ten thousand zeros)...1

The odds are the same as frikin tornado going through a junk yard and creating an and running Jumbo Jet with all electronics, seats, and safety equipment.

So, you retards belive in science fiction and have your own stupid religion called "ahtiests".

Beyond the first cell, the a stupid other "circumstances" (ie, miracle) somehow lead to the creation of smart cells that can recreate themselves, then another miracle lead to , then, then, then you got DNA!!! Are you people this dumb?!!

All the brains cells you don't use, all the body parts you misuse that work perfectly together; with each gland running better than a German factory; and all the brain interpretations of sight, sound, memory, all happened by chance, you dumb asses?!!

A freak coincidence created "plants" inside your body that engineers in Intel, Microsoft, Rolls Royce, GM, Nokia, Kodak, Oracle, can only dream of doing in machines millions of years later?! Are you that dumb?!!

When was the last time nature created a frikin house with doors windows and furniture, or show me one thing that nature "builds" you morons?!!

Nature destroys and does not build. You are as dumb as someone thinking the Pyramids happend by nature. And the Pyramids are far more simple than living beings.

So the next time you think you are smart and that the idea that we are created by a higher power, go look at your dumb self in the mirror and ask yourself how stupid chance allows you to see your idiotic self in the mirror. And by the way, your mirror was created by a man and no nature can created even a dumb mirror so you can see your dumb self.

Cheers!

 

What fun to have muslims posting on the forum. They actually make christians look clever. When I read the Koran for the first time I was amazed at how stupid it was. 

It has the Pentateuch installed in it. Out of order. WTF? And just so you know, Atheism is not a religion. It's looking at religion and saying: "This is a crock of fucking bullshit." Do you get it?

In any case Ihab, you are making a fallacious argument from complexity. The fact there are things that are unknown does not empower you to make assertions unsupported by testable explanations. 

When you have some facts, please present them in a coherent fashion. In the meantime, keep your Dunning-Kruger Effect to yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I don't think I've seen so

I don't think I've seen so many arguments from ignorance in one post before. 

Ihab wrote:

Ok, athiests. So the first cell was created by a random explosion? That is more than all the miracles that make fun of in all religions. The odds for a stupid explosion to create the fuirst simple cell is 0.00000..... (ten thousand zeros)...1

The odds are the same as frikin tornado going through a junk yard and creating an and running Jumbo Jet with all electronics, seats, and safety equipment.

I think you're getting the big bang theory and abiogenesis mixed up. I'm not sure where you got those odds from, but given that experiments have been done in laboratories that have seen the generation of ribonucleotides from a basic mix of chemicals found on interstellar dust clouds and meteorites, I'll be contacting you next time I want to put a little money on my football team. 

Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions Matthew W. Powner, Beatrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland. Nature, Vol. 460, May 13, 2009.

Ihab wrote:

So, you retards belive in science fiction and have your own stupid religion called "ahtiests".

No, precisely the opposite. I don't believe in science fiction (hence the word 'fiction'), and to describe 'athiesm' as a religion is fairly disingenuous. Athiesm, as I interpret it, is the absence of belief in any god. 

Ihab wrote:

Beyond the first cell, the a stupid other "circumstances" (ie, miracle) somehow lead to the creation of smart cells that can recreate themselves, then another miracle lead to , then, then, then you got DNA!!! Are you people this dumb?!!

All the brains cells you don't use, all the body parts you misuse that work perfectly together; with each gland running better than a German factory; and all the brain interpretations of sight, sound, memory, all happened by chance, you dumb asses?!!

Yes. Look at all the imperfections in the design of humans. I wonder why we aren't designed perfectly? Could it be that you have shot a hole in your own argument? 

Ihab wrote:

When was the last time nature created a frikin house with doors windows and furniture, or show me one thing that nature "builds" you morons?!!

Nature destroys and does not build. You are as dumb as someone thinking the Pyramids happend by nature. And the Pyramids are far more simple than living beings.

So the next time you think you are smart and that the idea that we are created by a higher power, go look at your dumb self in the mirror and ask yourself how stupid chance allows you to see your idiotic self in the mirror. And by the way, your mirror was created by a man and no nature can created even a dumb mirror so you can see your dumb self.

Cheers!

'Nature' doesn't build anything. Things develop according to scientific laws, which may be interpreted as the 'laws of nature'. Indeed, have a look at 'crystal growth' in wikipedia. There is an awful lot of science there explaining the process that 'nature' uses to grow a large non-living object from many smaller, non-living objects. 

I can see myself in the mirror because of my wonderfully evolved eyes. Although, again, I have an imperfection in one of them. Did your creator make a mistake when he was creating my right eye? Or is he not perfect? And as for mirrors in 'nature', have a look at the surface of a pond. 

You don't seem to be able to contemplate that there could possibly be an alternative explanation for what you are seeing. And you certainly don't seem to be able to make a coherent argument. 

Cheers!

 

 


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Ihab wrote: So the first

Ihab wrote:
So the first cell was created by a random explosion?

Baaaaaahhhaaahaaahaaaa...


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Ihab (not verified)

Ihab (not verified) wrote:
Ok, athiests. So the first cell was created by a random explosion?

That right there is enough to laugh you off as a fruitcake. I won't bother reading the rest.

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Are u mad

 

hey dude???hav u gone mad?QURAN is the book written by ALLAHA....

 


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Are u mad

have u gone crazyy?if god is noun,then who created the earth and others?who is the creater

 


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Too bad...

Too bad they pretty much had to throw that theory (What NASA calls 'rilles' are believed to have been ancient lava flows or surface cracks) out as soon as they proposed it...

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060317rille.htm

This doesn't immediately prove that God ripped the moon in half and then forged it back together but it does prove that you really don't know as much as you claim to do and you're just like the religious fanatics --> blindly believing in something that has no evidence to back it up all because you want to prove to the less worthy mortals that you're better than them... How does it feel to realize you're just like all those people you hate? LOL


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Whatever the origin of the

Whatever the origin of the rilles, there is zero evidence there for any cataclysmic disruption of the lunar surface in historic times, which would have to be still evident in such a scenario.

There is evidence for a major event in the moon's history, where another body collided with it at low enough velocity to actually merge with it, based on the significantly different nature of the front and rear faces. Something like that would easily shock the moon enough to cause things like that, even major lava flows. But again, there is no evidence for that having taken place in historic times.

The "split in two" is far more problematic scientifically and lacking in adequate evidence that any of the current theories, whatever their problems. So if you are going to use science to argue against any alternatives, it is hypocritical in the extreme to try and insert the "split" idea as a better 'explanation'.

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Anonymous292 wrote:Too bad

Anonymous292 wrote:

Too bad they pretty much had to throw that theory (What NASA calls 'rilles' are believed to have been ancient lava flows or surface cracks) out as soon as they proposed it...

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060317rille.htm

This doesn't immediately prove that God ripped the moon in half and then forged it back together but it does prove that you really don't know as much as you claim to do and you're just like the religious fanatics --> blindly believing in something that has no evidence to back it up all because you want to prove to the less worthy mortals that you're better than them... How does it feel to realize you're just like all those people you hate? LOL

So ridiculous. Go back to grade school and stop listening to delusional religious idiots.

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How the creation then came

How the creation then came into beign at the first place? What was the very first thing to come into existance? at least in your ethiest belief?


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I don't know. Noone does.

I don't know. Noone does. That's the whole point. For all we know the question is nonsensical. Maybe there's no such thing as a first thing. Study of time suggests that both space and mass must exist in order for time to exist, as time is a side effect of universal expansion. If so, then there's no such thing as "before existence" and no such thing as a "first thing to exist".

I know it's counter-intuitive and hard to grasp the concept. But you should give it a go regardless.

As an educated guess, I would presume that space, time, and energy all formed simultaneously as extensions of each other, or of something else we haven't discovered/explained that also formed simultaneously.

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Easier to understand how

Easier to understand how some elementary 'singularity' might have just formed, than how an infinite sentient being might have just come into being...

God didn't create everything, unless you want to claim he created himself, which is far weirder than something just spontaneously forming.

If you want to claim God always existed, that doesn't explain anything, and if anything as non-trivial as a 'God' could just always have existed, even easier to imagine some really basic energy field just always being there. Which is all that would be 'necessary', if anything was, to have a 'Big-Bang' happen.

Either way, 'God' just doesn't really 'work' as an explanation for an ultimate 'cause'.

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Anonymous001 wrote:How the

Anonymous001 wrote:

How the creation then came into beign at the first place? What was the very first thing to come into existance? at least in your ethiest belief?

 

 

                           There was no creation to begin with, that hints at the impossible.  If you want a serious discussion on evolution you should first work on your spelling,   will make you sound more intelligent and make it worth our efforts.  Atheists do NOT have a belief; Atheists DO NOT believe in a god or religion.   What you accuse us of is in effect "a belief in non-belief".    

 

 

                           As for universal beginnings;  google "big Bang" and you will get untold resources on the scientific explanation of the origins of the universe.

 

 

 

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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What about the Energy?

The universe would've never existed without sufficient initial energy to ignite duality formation, even the existence of matter itself. And we all know that energy is perpetual, and cannot be created (by human), only convert it into another form. So how did the energy exist in the beginning?? Either it is created by an omnipotent being, or it is the true form of "God" itself.
 

If the energy is God itself, then we're all just a budding from his body, and we'll definitely return to merge with Him. (sounds like Yahweh)

If there is a God, He'd be the one whom able to utilize the energy into a very complex masterpiece called the universe. Because even though there are sufficient energy to make a universe, it will not simply form into an existence with a superb equilibrium. Without an 'Engineer', there'll be no equilibrium; only chaos.

So far that's the conclusion my flawed logic came into. I'm sorry for my confusing explanations of it.
I need someone to find the flaw of this conclusion, i want to learn more. Thank you.

 

 


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"The universe would've never

"The universe would've never existed without sufficient initial energy to ignite duality formation"

The universe could have existed even if there was no energy. If the net sum of energy in the universe is 0, then 0 energy was required to get it started.

"And we all know that energy is perpetual, and cannot be created (by human), only convert it into another form. "

Just because we haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done. Again, if the net sum of energy in the universe is 0, then we can create energy by simultaneously creating anti-energy, with a net sum of 0 energy.

"f there is a God, He'd be the one whom able to utilize the energy into a very ~snip~ it will not simply form into an existence with a superb equilibrium. Without an 'Engineer', there'll be no equilibrium; only chaos."

Well equilibrium is 10+ billion years away, so clearly there's no engineer, or if there is he/she/it is amazingly incompent.

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