U.S Founded on Religus ideolagy?

Joshua
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U.S Founded on Religus ideolagy?

!!WORNING!! Can't spell for shit.

I'm having trouble with this. There are refreances to God and a Creator in the Decleration of Independance. If we are (and I'm asking on a spacificly objective basses) not a nation founded with enharent religus or theistic ideals, what are thes referances doing in the Decleration? Were there additions to the Decleration, or modification down the line? I've ben looking for evedince of this and hav'nt found enything yet. I know that in the 50's the atempt to joyn church and state resulted in "under God" in the Pledge and "in God we trust" printed on our money. Has eny of these kiend of atrosatys ben put in to the Decleration? Thanks.

"WHEN, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

"Keep Fighting The Good Fight"
Joshua D. Jones


MattShizzle
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They were talking about the

They were talking about the Deist "God", not the Christian one, and besides we are not governed by the Declaration.

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LeftofLarry
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The declaration, was in fact

The declaration, was in fact just that; a declaration of independence from the suffocating governance of xtianity in England. the Declaration of Independence is of no means a measure of theistic foundation of this country. The founders...were in fact deists....and being deists they were smart enough to leave God out of our Constitution, which is the document which prescribes the rules of governance in this country. They did not want this country to become what they had escaped from.

The declaration was a document specifically written to snub england and their theocratic monarchy. The word of god and creator were placed because the original pilgrims were religious migrants that escaped to worship freely here, without fear of persecution. By the time of the Revolutionary war and teh Declaration of Independence, this country had become extremely diverse..and the founding fathers were far from theocratic. They knew that leaving God out of the constitution would make this country a great country where freedom, pluralism, democracy and tolerance were to be the main pillars of this country. Which is why we have the separation of church and state clause in our constituion. Without it, they knew that this country would become exactly what it is becoming today (due to the complete and utter defiance of the neocons to the constitution, except for the second ammendment GOD FORBID you touch that one), a theocratic state that is money hungry...and will use war, religion and nationalism...to gain profits for the elitists in charge...take a look at your government, tell me one fucking middle class congressman, or senator or even a higher level government worker that is not completely invovled with corporate elitism in this country, tied into...church groups etc...

With religion they control, with war they conquer and with money they grow. (take this as figuratively or as realistically as you please.) God(deceit), Guns(war) and Guts(nationalism) Keep all three!!! Barf! (ever see this bumper sticker? minus the paranthesese?)

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Joshua
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Ofcorse you are bothe

Ofcorse you are bothe absolutly right. The Decleration is just that, a decleration and is not used to govern the country. However, Bush uses these referances as if it were law or a moral justification for say, sining a bill in to law. So people acsept it as a confermation of there beleaf that the founding fathers were indeed religusly motivated. Now, "under God" in the Pledge, "in God we trust" on money, the song "God Bless Amarica", the fact that you have to swar on the Bible in cort, and that the presadent, and enyone holding public offace, has sence around 1903 had to swar on the Bible when taking offace, and these ar'nt things that govern our country ether, but people will use these examples for justification of an Amarica founded on religun, or justification that we are a christion nation. And it becomes increesingly deficult to argue the facts when facing this infection of religun in the political arena. So how does one combat this avelanch of ignerance, when clearly there are religus influances at work in the political world today?

"Keep Fighting The Good Fight"
Joshua D. Jones


MattShizzle
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I've been crossing "under

I've been crossing "under god" off of money for a while! Laughing out loud
This show/website and the Freedom From Religion Foundation both help fight the bullshit. And, yeah, I've seen that idiotic bumper sticker. Sad

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reason_passion
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Unfortunately there is both

Unfortunately there is both a point being missed here and some information not being said, well, perhaps a couple points.

The first is that, as has rightly been pointed out, the declaration of independence was in large part a propoganda piece, designed to promote a specific mindset concerning the justification for leaving the tyranny of England. The theory being used by england at the time was a version of the divine right of kings and so to combat this thinking you have wording here that harkens to Locke and the inalienable rights given by the Divine. Though it should be mentioned here that if these rights are "inalienable" then by definition they cannot be bestowed or taken away so bringing the Divine into the discussion seems superfluous. In any case, the Declaration was never intended to be a governing document, only a so-called letter of intent.

The second point to bring up to those who use such examples to justify that America is christian is that of tradition. Even if a case could be made for the Christian, this at no time is a justification for continuing such a practice. Slavery, lack of women's rights and child labor were also a part of early american society, but I don't see any of them saying that those practices should be continued. In addition, usage of such historical articles is disengenous anyway, as they would be the first to disparage usage of the Crusades, the trials at Geneva under Calvin and many other atrocities committed by Christians as pointing to a problem with their beliefs. History, like so many other things, is used by them for their own purposes an disposed of when it no longer works.

Some information that might help is to look up the Treaty of Tripoli, created and ratified by George Washington and the Senate in 1797, outlining the peace between the U.S. and Tripoli, a Muslim nation. Here is the quote most used in Article 11.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen..."

While there will be those to debate the meaning behind the wording, it is rather a strong quote to point out.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


Joshua
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Grate, that is the stuff I'm

Grate, that is the stuff I'm looking for in this poste.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen..."

Yes, these are varry importent quots. And I would love to hear more of them. Eny quotes form the founding fathers that can be seen as an undeniable truth and referanced, is what I'm looking for. Although I don't know if undeniable truths are mutch help in dealing with theists, but they cant hert.

I was reading this responce and thought it would be cool to have a good solid quote frome each of the founders to put on a T-Shurt. Spreding the truth is prity easy to do on a shirt, and get's more atenchen than a card or comment. So, ya, pore on some quotes. What the hell I might just make some Shurts-of-Truth. lol

"Keep Fighting The Good Fight"
Joshua D. Jones


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reason_passion wrote:The

reason_passion wrote:
The second point to bring up to those who use such examples to justify that America is christian is that of tradition. Even if a case could be made for the Christian, this at no time is a justification for continuing such a practice. Slavery, lack of women's rights and child labor were also a part of early american society, but I don't see any of them saying that those practices should be continued. In addition, usage of such historical articles is disengenous anyway, as they would be the first to disparage usage of the Crusades, the trials at Geneva under Calvin and many other atrocities committed by Christians as pointing to a problem with their beliefs. History, like so many other things, is used by them for their own purposes an disposed of when it no longer works.

I don't have anything new to add, really, I just want to say that I totally agree with your point. Just because something has always been done, doesn't mean that it should always be continued. I look forward to the time when people can let go of their beliefs in their imaginary friends.

"People said I was dumb, but I proved them!"~Fry