A Reply to: 'Supernatural' (and 'Immaterial) are broken concepts

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A Reply to: 'Supernatural' (and 'Immaterial) are broken concepts

It appears that Todangst, in association with Deludedgod, has produced a significant roadblock in respect to conversations which involve concepts that have anything to do with the concept of 'supernatural' or 'immaterial'. In other words, it allows T.D. and D.G. to have the basis to say that any discussions concerning the concept of 'God' are meaningless or incoherent because of the conversation's use of an incoherent concept as a vitally crucial part of the conversation.

To begin with, I want T.D. to know that I've considered his challenge for someone to actually provide a difference or distinction between his use of 'supernatural' (pg. 2 of his paper states: "You might also feel that you know of a way to solve the problem: by turning to euphemisms like 'beyond nature' or 'above nature' instead of 'not nature'. However, unless you can show how these distinctions lead to a difference, these euphimisms are all ontologically identical with 'not matter/not nature' - they still all rule out any universe of discourse" ). I think it is important to note that I will not be trying to extend my argument to the concept of 'immaterial'. I find that T.D. arguments against 'immateriality' compelling and I have not been able to come up with any viable challenges to his argument against it. However, I do feel that I have something to offer by way of challenging his argument concerning the concept 'supernatural'.

To begin I would like to focus on what the concept of 'supernatural' actually means. T.D. defines it in his paper as: "Supernatural - defined as 'not nature' or 'above nature' or 'beyond nature'. I will be operating from this same definition. However, I will obviously try to derive a different conclusion.

Definitional Argument

My argument rests on grasping the 'above nature' option of how to conceive the meaning of 'supernatural'. My conception differs from T.D.'s because I don't associate 'above nature' as necessarily outside of nature or 'not nature'. Following this layout, another sense of what it means to be 'above nature' can be seen as something which 'greatly exceeds the normal course of nature'. Therefore, if 'above nature' is conceived in the way that I recommend, then the concept 'supernatural' is not defined solely in the negative; it still retains positive natural properties.

Counter argument: Saying 'greatly exceeds the normal course of nature' is not a sufficient distinction between something that is 'outside of nature'. Therefore, you have merely given a poor semantical description for the same incoherent conception of 'supernatural'.

Reply: The distinction rests on the important involvement of 'nature' in my sense of conceiving 'supernatural'. I am in no way stealing from naturalism because I am conceiving of something which greatly quantifies the normal existing properties of nature. The properties of nature remain firmly intact within my sense of 'supernatural'. Something in this sense would be 'exceedingly or greatly X' where X would be a property of nature and capable of a universe of discourse.

Referential Argument

 

Just because a concept refers to an empty set does not mean that the concept is meaningless. For example, if I have the set of all Mastodons and look for existing members, then I would quickly realize that none exist. Does this mean that the concept 'Mastodon' is meaningless? No. What it means is that for the set denoting all things that are Mastodons, that set would have no members. The set can be meaningfully understood to delineate properties that a thing must have in order to be a member of that set. The lacking of something already in existence possessing these properties at time X does not mean that the set representing those things which would have those properties would be meaningless.

Counter argument: I see where you're going with this. Even if I grant your argument, Mastodon's are not something which is 'supernatural'. Those sets which represent things which are 'supernatural' would be necessarily empty and therefore meaningless at any time. You can prove that mastodons once existed through the fossil record and science, but where is the proof for your 'supernatural' set members?

Reply: This argument doesn't prove that possible members of a set representing 'supernatural' things is necessarily empty. What it proves is that there have not yet been any members which fit into the set of things which are 'supernatural'. Referential agnosticism does not denote conceptual incoherency.

 

The challenge from T.D. has apparently been that because the concept 'supernatural' steals from naturalism (under his conception) then any attempts to use the concept, merely renders it naturalistic and therefore, not what it meant to be; therefore rendering the concept 'supernatural' meaningless. However, If my arguments hold, I have been able to overcome his challenge. The concept of 'supernatural' as I have described proudly uses concepts from nature because I don't think that 'supernatural' means outside of nature. Because of this, my argument meets one aspect of T.D.'s challenge. Furthermore, my argument (hopefully) describes a set, which has no existing referent, but still has meaning. If my argument is successful, it is only meant to allow discourse concerning things in the sense of 'supernatural' in the way that I have described.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


deludedgod
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I already punched a hole

I already punched a hole through that argument in the most recent version of this:

On Negative Theology and its Linguistic Implications For the Coherency of Certain Theological Concepts

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It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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deludedgod wrote: I

deludedgod wrote:

I already punched a hole through that argument

 LOL...Smiling


jread
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deludedgod wrote:

deludedgod wrote:

I already punched a hole through that argument in the most recent version of this:

On Negative Theology and its Linguistic Implications For the Coherency of Certain Theological Concepts

 

I'll try to defend myself on the definitional argument first Deluded.  

I don't see how my definitional description entials existence. I understand my definitional argument for 'supernatural' to be viewed as a kind of adjectival concept. If I maintain an adjectival conception of supernatual, without any reference to existence as a necessary property, I don't see how I am entirely crippled on my definitional account by your argument. I agree with what you said about the concept 'supernatural' if you include existence as a property of 'supernatural'. However, I am under the impression that my argument avoids this problematic existence quality. If this is the case, then I don't the difference between a class representing 'unicorns' and a class representing 'supernatural' (In the naturalistic way I've described without reference to existence). 

I'm low on time at the moment, so I will read your article again and take a second look at my referential argument. To be continued. In the meantime, can you point where my failings are in what I've written in reply to your paper, so if necessary, I can also rework the entirety of my position.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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Principally, your failing

Principally, your failing was arguing that "it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist". Identity is the antecedant to coherent existanceL

Common Counter-Argument: Just because there is no identity does not mean it does not exist!

This fundamentally misses the point of the argument. The point is not to demonstrate that it does not exist, but rather that there is no “it” to speak of! Otherwise, the corollary of this exclamation is the simple question “What is it that you speak of “existing”? Make up a word. Does this word have meaning? Well, you may have proposed that the word refers to an concept that suggests existence, ie the word denotes a real-world concept. But suppose you have not, but you still hold that this word should denote. In this case would you ask whether or not the referred to something that existed? Not yet. First, you have to ask “what is it that we speak of existing”? Identity is the antecedent to existence. It is meaningless to speak of existence without identity, since that requisite is axiomatic and any attempt to argue against it would refute its own premise, as I have already established.

In what sense are we referring to existence in this context? What sense is there of speaking of existence without identity? There is none. To exist is to exist as something. But this particular proposition is unique in that there is no coherent established property by which we have identity, there is only an eliminative lack of it. If God has no identity, then there is no entity, for how can speak of entity in this case? In what sense is it an entity? The “non-physical” sense? This is unhelpful because it simply returns us to the question above, we still have no identity for the entity in question, thence what sense is there speaking of it existing? It is rather like claiming that my computer on which I am typing could “exist” without plastic, silicon and liquid crystal. Well, then, in what sense does it exist? In the non-plastic, non-silicon, non-liquid crystal sense? You can see how the reductio ad absurdum is generated. How is it that people can operate under the delusion that they can reference “God” without identity, the satirical eliminate fashion in which I defined “my computer” above is simply an elimination of existential identity. That’s exactly what the word “supernatural” is. There is no difference between saying “God is supernatural” and saying a boat “exists” as “not a boat”. To exist is to exist as something, I cannot "exist" as "not a something"/

 

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
-Baruch de Spinoza

It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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I've been thinking over this

I've been thinking over this and think I can give a coherent definition of super-natural that accurate captures what most people want to mean by it.

If we use the scientific method and rely on results that are repeatable then we get the laws of nature - the laws of physics as we understand them.
Now I give the matrix as an example:
The matrix simulated a physical universe, but all these laws were contingent on the programming code. So there was a 'higher law' or 'higher power' that could see to it that events happened that broke the laws of physics that testing/experimentation would've given. This 'higher power' would be 'super natural'.

So an event is super-natural if it contradicts what we consider to be the laws of nature. (Such an event isn't impossible, it's just that given the perception of such an event, the laws of nature have more probability than the accuracy of the anomalous perceptions that contradict them.)
A supernatural being would be the 'will' that controls when these 'ad hoc' events happen.
I see no reason why this definition would be incoherent.
God would be analogous to a Matrix programmer, and I think that's the way that a lot of people see 'him'.

For obvious reasons, the presence of such a supernatural being might not be justifiable scientifically as by its very definition it's something that would slip through our scientific method. But atleast it's not incoherent and doesn't contradict the results of science.
If you accept this much I'll try out some arguments that would show that this definition of God would be justifiable in theory. Not that I have any opinion on whether they hold, I'd just like to play with them and try them out, see if anything can come out of them.


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The trick card up your

The trick card up your sleeve is "higher being".

You haven't given your proposition any identity. 

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
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It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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I thought that I had,

I thought that I had, informally, through that Matrix analogy.
Still, I'll have a crack at giving it a slightly more formal definition.
This higher being 'does' things, so it would need to be an agent that exists within a 'space' with atleast one dimension to give it a temporal structure.
(I know that in physics, time and space are interlinked into space-time, but this is an a posteriori result about how the structure of our empirical universe is. It doesn't contradict the coherence of other mathematical models that represent a space and/or time.)
I think that would give it the minimal struture required for a coherent conception of agency.

The next thing I'd need to do would be to give a coherent explanation on how this agent existing in this 'timeline' had any interaction with our spacetime universe. The answer would be that everything in our spacetime universe is contingent on its will. That the universe follows the laws it does depends on it's will, and if it wills it the laws are broken.
The fact that the laws of nature tend to be followed except for rare occasions would be explained in terms of the personality of this agent, why it does the things that it does.

While you might object that our consciousness/agency is closely linked to our physical conditions, this would be an a posteriori argument about how consciousness tends to be in the real world and not an argument against the coherence of a non-physical conception of consciousness. So I don't see how arguments such as those could affect the identity of this agent within this 'timeline'.

What's more, this 'timeline' need not be connected to our own spacetime (other than that the properties of our spacetime are contingent of the agent within this timeline), it just has to have the temporal structure in order for our mental concepts to be applicable to this 'being'.

An analogy that would was illustrate such a being would be if our space-time universe was a computer simulation. The programmer would live in a 'timelines' outside our own time (in this case the timeline would also be a spacetime), that every property of the universe would be contingent on this programmer's will... etc.


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But now your definition is

But now your definition is simply ad hoc and is not in concordance with the theistic description of the "supernatural", forthermore, you are forced into making an unclarified special pleading fallacy which would seem to indicate you are stealing attributes from entities about which we do have a posteriori knowledge except that you are begging the question by asserting that it is contigent to say that your supernatural being may have these attributes despite being in a different category. This is rather like a pick-and-mix child's game of "if you could have superpowers, what would you like to do?", "Well, it would be rather nice if I could shoot heat rays? Hang on, I thought you just said you wanted to be cold-blooded, you'd have no method of Homeostasis? "Damn. Well, I'll just pretend that I have some hitherto unclarified method of keeping temperature stasis so I can do both simultaneously".

Similarily, your proposition is subtly requisiting that you project your coherent understanding of our universe, that in which we live, to something you claim is outside it. You cannot defend this proposition on grounds of the possibility that there might be "other models" describing the a priori nature of the thing in question, like time, because then you're just playing pick-and-mix again! You might as well just admit your whole proposition is appeal to ad hocism. Once you start appealling to ideas like "the personality of this agent" and "consciousness", you are abandoning all pretense of metaphysical propositions, and adding empirical propositions into the fray whenever you please!

And you still haven't given me the identity of the entity in question. I don't want to know what this mysterious thing can do. Theists tell me that all the time with their threats of damnation! I want to know what the thing is. It is propositionally unhelpful to say "my computer is an "agent" capable of performing calculations and hooking me up to the the internet". Rather, my computer is a device constructed out of liquid crystal, plastic and silicon where silcon chips are arrayed in parallel circuitry slotted into containing locks inside the laptop clustured around a large silicon chip called a motherboard.

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
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It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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deludedgod wrote:But now

deludedgod wrote:
But now your definition is simply ad hoc and is not in concordance with the theistic description of the "supernatural"
I agree that not all theologians define their God in this way. However, this is the way that a lot of the people who call themselves 'theists' see God. It fits the characteristics they want to attribute to God as having all power over nature.
Quote:
forthermore, you are forced into making an unclarified special pleading fallacy which would seem to indicate you are stealing attributes from entities about which we do have a posteriori knowledge except that you are begging the question by asserting that it is contigent to say that your supernatural being may have these attributes despite being in a different category.
There's no question begging because I'm not putting forward an argument based on premises. I am merely putting forward a definition of 'God' that does not contradict itself and fits some conception of God out there. I also think that this God has the necessary characteristics to be considered a theistic God. To put forward a coherent concept, all I need to do is state the rules of it's use without internal contradiction. The stolen concept fallacy is when one denies something that one relies on - i.e. an internal contradiction. Although I am doing what you describe, I'm not sure why you consider it 'stealing' or fallicious.
Quote:
This is rather like a pick-and-mix child's game of "if you could have superpowers, what would you like to do?"
Yes. It is. And it answers the question at hand. Claiming something is incoherent is a hefty charge to put against an idea. It should come as little surprise that putting forward a coherent idea isn't difficult. You pick and mix the characteristics you want, and just make sure that there's no internal contradiction. You have to make up your mind whether you hero has exactly two arms or atleast four!
Quote:
Similarily, your proposition is subtly requisiting that you project your coherent understanding of our universe, that in which we live, to something you claim is outside it. You cannot defend this proposition on grounds of the possibility that there might be "other models" describing the a priori nature of the thing in question, like time, because then you're just playing pick-and-mix again!
If it's just defending the coherence then I don't see why not? A positive definition has been given with no internal contradiction. All my theists position has to do is be a model that doesn't contradict itself.
Quote:
You might as well just admit your whole proposition is appeal to ad hocism. Once you start appealling to ideas like "the personality of this agent" and "consciousness", you are abandoning all pretense of metaphysical propositions, and adding empirical propositions into the fray whenever you please!
I don't get what you're accusing me of here. All I have to do for a coherent definition is put forward a model that doesn't contradict itself. Empirical propositions would only come into this if I wanted to show that this 'coherent possibility' was an actuality. I agree that I haven't attemped to argue for the existence of this being based on metaphysical necessity. This is because I don't think that such an argument is possible.
Quote:
And you still haven't given me the identity of the entity in question. I don't want to know what this mysterious thing can do. Theists tell me that all the time with their threats of damnation! I want to know what the thing is. It is propositionally unhelpful to say "my computer is an "agent" capable of performing calculations and hooking me up to the the internet". Rather, my computer is a device constructed out of liquid crystal, plastic and silicon where silcon chips are arrayed in parallel circuitry slotted into containing locks inside the laptop clustured around a large silicon chip called a motherboard.
A concept doesn't need to be of a material thing to be coherent. Besides, the whole point of this 'god' is that 'he' is not material 'himself'. All I needed was a conception that didn't contradict itself that fitted certain characteristics commonly assigned to God. I gave a conception that allowed agency and unlimited power over our material universe. This being exists in a n>0 dimensional space (so there's atleast a timeline) and this structure is enough to allow for concepts of agency. In this last paragraph you ask for what more fundamental matter/laws/structures is this being based on. Does there need to be any? As atheists/physicalists, we believe that there is no structure more fundamental than space-time, atleast there doesn't have to be. In the same way there wouldn't have to be any laws above and beyond this agency working within this one dimensional structure. True? I don't think so. I'm playing devils advocate - I'm still an atheist. But coherent? I can't see a contradiction in this definition.


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I'm sorry for the delayed

I'm sorry for the delayed reply Deluded; now I think I may have something satisfactory.

After considering your replies, I agree that my argument failed and fell victim to the identity issue; or in other words, my argument was too ambitious. I feel that my argument should primarily focus on the concept of 'supernatural' in its simplest terms and leave out God (for now). Perhaps we may find that the issue involves attaching 'supernatural' to a controversial being, and not 'supernatural' itself. This is what I will attempt to explain.

 

'Supernatural' as a Predicate Noun

Stemming from my definitional view of 'supernatural' I would like to explore the possibility of 'supernatural' conceived of in the following example. Consider the space shuttle when it was first launched. While watching the space shuttle launch, a spectator may exclaim "that's amazing!" In this setting, I would illustrate my conception of 'supernatural' as being expressed similar to "amazing" i.e. "that's supernatural!" Granted, this may not be what most people say at the sight of an "amazing" thing or event, but it seems that when most people say "amazing" you could plausibly substitute "supernatural".

Now how my conception of 'supernatural' would apply to the space shuttle analogy is this: the space shuttle appears to exceed the normal laws of nature. The sight of a huge metal vehicle being thrust into the air, and eventually passing outside of our atmosphere, would seem quite an extraordinary event. "Extraordinary" is my key emphasis on this point. The conception of 'supernatural' that I am supporting has everything in common with 'extraordinary'. This is so because 'supernatural' in my conception merely means 'something that greatly exceeds the normal course of nature'. Therefore, in the case of the space shuttle analogy, the space shuttle would be "greatly exceeding the normal course of nature." Which obviously would allow me to insert 'supernatural' in place of its definition resulting in: The space shuttle launching out of the atmosphere would be something supernatural.

I hope Deluded, that I did not make the same error that I did before dealing with th axiom of identity. If I have made an error in my argument, I at least hope that it is a new one. I concede that if what I have described is correct, then I may have an impossible task of applying 'supernatural' coherently to the idea of 'God'. However, I am not dissatisfied by that prospect. I look forward to your criticisms.

 

Note: I understand that in today's world, and maybe even the world during the time that the space shuttle was first launched, it may not be accurately described as 'greatly exceeding the natural course of nature'. For example, physicists can show how the space shuttle merely has the required force and velocity to thrust it out of the atmosphere; which is something completly "natural" to a scientist. However, this objection appears inapplicable when we concieve of putting ourselves in a spectator's shoes from during that time period. The true thought or concept that would concievably be in that spectator's mind while witnessing the space shuttle thrust smoothly into the air is apparently accurate to that of "that' supernatural!" Alas, if you feel that this example does illustrate a failing to my argument, then please explain how that may follow. I imagine that the failing of my argument maybe a fallacious appeal to the ignorance of the spectator and his incorrect labeling or misunderstanding of a completely natural event. However, would this deem my conception of 'supernatural' incoherent and/or incorrect? Or would it merely show that my example does not apply to my conception?

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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Quote: I look forward to

Quote:

I look forward to your criticisms.

I'm not going to criticze you, actaully I am duly impressed, because you have made an honest admission that most would not. Todangst pointed this out in his essay God is an Incoherent Term:

If we consider how people use the word 'god', (both theist and atheist) we see that there are at least three main categories that cover what the term 'god' actually means in human discourse:

A statement of astonishment or wonder or pleasure: "Oh my god! Flapjacks!"

A concession of bewilderment: "We don't know. Goddidit!"

A anthropomorphic reference to a very human entity that shares the same feelings and thoughts and wants and desires as we do, that may even intervene in the lives of some people (if they pray hard enough or are good enough, despite the paradoxes contained in this belief) in order to save them from difficulties.

You are appealling to the former. It does not matter which way we cut this, we derive the same thing, considering what we were talking about previously, you have changed things around, making a fallacy of equivocation. THe issue under consideration was "supernatural" as a metaphysical proposition. You've started playing with the rules, using it as a generic expression of wonder or awe is to eviscerate the concept you were talking about in the OP. If we extended this to its logical result, it would be perfectly coherent to make the following chaing of reasoning:

P1: I am feeling very blue today

P2: Blue is a wavelength on the EM spectrum

C: I am feeling like a wavelength on the EM spectrum 

That's it. You must concede that you are making an appeal to wonder, because you cannot possibly maintain the error of stating that the events in question which "appear" to contradict our intuitive view of nature as contradicticted by science is to make a credible postulate of "supernatural". To do so would require that you make a second fallacy of equivocation between nature, the ontological proposition of naturalism, and natural, the intuitive human understanding of the world. By that logic,  you must understand, it would supernatural to speak of Galileo's experiment of dropping cannonballs and showing that in a vacuum, mass has no effect whatsoever on free-fall acceleration.

If you concede this, then you are simply admitting that your employment of "supernatural" is wordplay. You're appealling to an entirely different meaning of the word "nature" and setting up a contradistinctive proposition. In effect, you've tried to catch me in a bait-and-switch, or a moving the goalposts fallacy.  

 

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
-Baruch de Spinoza

It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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So, does the argument for

So, does the argument for the incoherency of the concept of 'supernatural' not apply if 'supernatural' is not used as a metaphysical proposition? 

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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Quote: So, does the

Quote:

So, does the argument for the incoherency of the concept of 'supernatural' not apply if 'supernatural' is not used as a metaphysical proposition?

Not necessarily, as that would be a denying the antecedant fallacy, but, again, you're just playing with bait-and-switch. You end up with a reductio ad absurdum if you take a word as it is commonly used in the vernacular and mangle it enough to make it propositionally coherent, in the end it has nothing to do with what we started out with.

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
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It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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You think I'm a swindler! I

You think I'm a swindler! I am hurt. Nevertheless, and all joking aside on my part, I do see your point. I take you to be saying, that when I use 'supernatural' in the completely non-related to the metaphysical sense it is a coherent term. However, this in no way helps to lead towards my end goal of attaching the concept 'supernatural' to God.

As of this point then, I would have to concede that my argument, as far as I have described it, does not successfully address what it set out to address: the incoherency of the (metaphysical) concept of 'supernatural'. Would you say that this is an accurate summation of what I've laid out Deluded? Oh and I meant criticism in the purely academic sense, not in the ad hominem sense.

 

Note: I could envision someone saying that 'supernatural' can be conceded as possibly used in a non-metaphysical sense (i.e. purely physical sense) and retain coherency (in the non-trivial way of an exclamation or mere saying-of-speech). However, on that point, I would definitely agree with you Deluded that this move would be unnaccetable, and as of yet, unargued. And just so you know, I will reattempt to formulate an argument which would lead to acheiving a successful reply to T.D.'s paper. Although, It may be a while before I come up with something.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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Wow it's been a while since

Wow it's been a while since i've been on here. Jread you're right to be suspicious about DG's thesis about meaning and that any religious utterance is meaningless. Mainly because it relies on a dubious Millianism (a thesis which i accept), a Millianism that has been largely abandoned by most contemporary philosophers of language and probably most contemporary Millians as well. Just so everyone knows Millianism is the thesis that names directly refer to objects, and words refer to objects. 

DG says something like the following about meaning:

Quote:
And (regarding the most common criticism of TN) I do not believe words necessarily have to refer to things to be meaningful, however, as we shall soon see, certain words do, and supernatural is one of them. Undoubtedly it has been established that for a word to mean something, it need not necessarily refer to something, nor an existent entity. And yet, the whole crux of this argument (as if it were construed against positivism) fails against more robust negative theology since we do acknowledge this except to make the point that by definition, certain types of words do need to refer to things. What types of words are we referring to when we say this? The answer is obvious: Those which attempt to make reference to the existence of things. We do not talk of the existence of "hello" or the existence of "what". Such statements would be category errors. Yet regarding the supernatural, demanding that the word have a genuine positive referent is a perfectly reasonable request, being that the word itself attempts, and fails to distinguish itself as referring to something which exists, in this case "the supernatural exists". Yet being that it is defined in negative terms only and eliminates all possible positives, supernatural is conceptually broken and hence it means nothing to say it exists.

According to this semantic thesis, a sentence that reports to refer to something that exists must refer to some object if it means something. Several 19th century scientists reported that a new planet had been discovered and these Scientists proposed that this planit is in an orbit between mercury and the Sun and they dubbed it “Vulcan“. Of course Vulcan never existed, and was proved to not exist because of advancements in physics on general relativity. It seems plausible that at least one of the 19th century Scientists uttered the following sentence:

1. Vulcan is a planet.

Intuitively this sentence does in fact mean something, and worse yet it reports to refer to something that exists. It does have a semantic content, but it also expresses the proposition that Vulcan is a planet. The proposition is true if and only if "Vulcan" satisfies the predicate "is a planet". Expressed as the following proposition:

1*. <Vulcan, is a planet>

Intuitively, we can grasp the proposition when we grasp what "Vulcan" refers to. But, your thesis runs into trouble when a name doesn't refer to something. Vulcan doesn't exist. It seems that the sentence (1) still means something and expresses a proposition, but the proposition is just false. The following utterances also seem to have meaning and express propositions but according to DG’s thesis, as best I can tell, do not have any meaning and thus express propositions with no truth value:

2. Pegasus doesn't exist.

3. God is worshiped by Christians.

This is problematic because intuitively both (2) and (3) do mean something, and there are readings in which even atheists can utter (3) and express a true propositions. We utter such things all the time. Here's some further problems with DG's proposal, consider the following utterances:

4. The tallest building on earth is in Asia.

5. The tallest building on earth was in New York.

6. The number of members of the Rational Responders is increasing.

Now, 4 expresses the proposition <The tallest building on earth, is in Asia>

The proposition is true according to DG's account because "the tallest building on earth" refers to Dubai, and Dubai is in Asia. This is good. But consider sentence 5.

Sentence 5 expresses the proposition < The tallest building on earth, was in New York>.

Now, sentence 5 is false according to DG's account because "the tallest building on earth" refers to Dubai, but Dubai was never in New York. And since Dubai doesn't satisfy the predicate "was in New York", so if DG is right the sentence is false. But intuitively there is a reading where sentence (5) is true.

Also, it is very difficult to see how (6) can express a true proposition if DG's account is right, since no individual number increases.

 

So given these difficulties with sentences (which express propositions) and references, it is difficult to see how DG’s thesis is true, thus i think you are right.


deludedgod
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Quote:

Quote:

According to this semantic thesis, a sentence that reports to refer to something that exists must refer to some object if it means something. Sentences often express propositions. Several 19th century scientists reported that a new planet had been discovered proposed to exist in an orbit between mercury and the Sun and they dubbed it “Vulcan“, of course Vulcan never existed due to advancements in physics on general relativity, but it seems plausible that these 19th century Scientists uttered the following sentence:

1. Vulcan is a planet.

Intuitively this sentence does in fact mean something, and worse yet it reports to refer to something that exists. It does have a semantic content, but it also expresses a proposition that Vulcan is a planet. The proposition is true if and only if "Vulcan" satisfies the predicate "is a planet". Expressed as the following proposition:

1*. <Vulcan, is a planet>

Intuitively, we can grasp the proposition when we grasp what "Vulcan" refers to. But, your thesis runs into trouble when a name doesn't refer to something. Vulcan doesn't exist. It seems that the sentence (1) still means something and expresses a proposition, but the proposition is just fals

This is most certainly not what my thesis was attempting to establish, and if it is what is being inferred, I need to clarify. My proposition was not that existence is the necessary antecedant to identity, but rather identity is the necessary antecedant to existence. It is propositionally coherent to speak the following:

Unicorns exist

Coherence theory of truth has largely been abandoned, but that not mean it cannot be employed, even if truth statements cannot be derived from it.

What I was not entailing, as you seem to be suggesting, was Fido-Fido theory, for when I speak of referents, I am not referring to the necessary entailment of existence, but rather identity, such that for any proper name p has description D entails that there are certain properties associated with p, this does not mean that p exists, that it has direct referent in the external world. It may not, but that is irrelevant. I am not Millian, to me, the sentence

Unicorns Exist

Is perfectly meaningful because it imbues certain recognized quantities onto the predicate. It's a white animal with a horse's body and a long horn. These predicates do not have to exist directly, in reality, no such animal exists, but that is irrelevant, it is still perfectly conceptually coherent. The word may attempt to refer to an existent thing, but I think my principle description was unclear. I was not suggesting that it is entailed that the description d need to refer to some existent entity, but rather, for there to be such an entity, we should be able to give it referents. It doesn't necessarily entail that what is refers to actually exists, but since I am unconcerned with the truth value of the proposition, that was not what I was focusing on. What I was advocating was denotation as apposed to Millian Descriptivism.

Although denotation works tidily for certain concepts lke "blue" or "lamp" it breaks down when we consider words which don't denote anything, like "hello". When I speak of denotation, it does not entail necessarily that the thing in question exists in the real world, but it should have conceivable property nonetheless. What I was suggesting was that certain words, by their nature, needed to . I was not concerned in any way with whether or not this referred to something in the real world, or whether it was a true statement, my principle and only concern was whether the entity had identity.  That is my litmus test (It's actually Quine's, but meh)

I think, then we are working with tow different senses of referent. TO me, in this case, a referent does not entail existence in the actual world, because that would make numerous either false statements on those propogating imaginary concepts unclear, when they are not. Rather, the predicate in question should be denoted, because speaking of the "supernatural" does not appear to be coherently speaking of any actual concept, ie it does not appear to denote a thing which could possibly have identity, because it appears to be solely defined in a negative universe of discourse where it is not coherently established what it means to refer to something as only: ~N, where N stands for "natural". We can define objects by their opposites so long as we are aware what is left over, ie

"This number is not even"

which is coherent because it is established what remains, odd numbers. THis means that since there is something left in the universe of discourse, we can coherently define it. It has not been established what, if anything, is left over or what we mean when we say "supernatural", and it does not appear to have any identity attached to it (see the "pencil case universe" suggestion at the bottom).

Principally, I was not concerned whatsoever with the truth value of the utterance, it is impossible to speak of a something being "true" when you don't even know what it is conceptually expressing.

Anyway, I needed to revise that paper, since I'm trying to finish drafting something on Multiple Realizability, I had ignored that one for a while.

 

True virtue is life under the direction of reason
-Baruch de Spinoza

It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me


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Yeah. The DG/Todangst

Yeah. The DG/Todangst position doesn't sound Milligan at all.
They simply acknowledge what the conceptual building blocks are for our empirical concepts and question whether the supernaturalist qualifies as one. I still think it can, but agree that the theology that many theists have put forward doesn't.


jread
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deludedgod wrote:

deludedgod wrote:

the predicate in question should be denoted, because speaking of the "supernatural" does not appear to be coherently speaking of any actual concept, ie it does not appear to denote a thing which could possibly have identity, because it appears to be solely defined in a negative universe of discourse where it is not coherently established what it means to refer to something as only: ~N, where N stands for "natural". We can define objects by their opposites so long as we are aware what is left over, ie

Supernatural is not appropriately defined as ~N. If this premise of your argument is removed, then your argument against my position dissapears.

Quote:
When I speak of denotation, it does not entail necessarily that the thing in question exists in the real world, but it should have conceivable property nonetheless.

This concession further supports my position concerning the rentention of the coherency of 'supernatual' if we define it as "above the normal course of nature" and not "outside of nature." It is quite feasible to see how the concept would retain coherency even we can merely denote its properties, yet not have an object in existence which can be referred to as 'supernatural.'

Argument from Analogy

The properties of a Unicorn would be:

white animal, with a horn, and a horses body.

 

The properties of something (existent or not) supernatural would be:

 

Speed: Super fast!

Power: Super power!

Intelligence: Super smart!

etc.

 

The only difference between the unicorn and the properties of 'supernatural' is level or quantity; not the actual properties themselves. I could add the following properties to the unicorn analogy:

 

Normal Unicorn:

white