Sapient engages guest 123 in a one on one discussion

Sapient
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Sapient engages guest 123 in a one on one discussion

In our stickam room tonight I ran into someone who goes by the name "guest123." Guest123 wanted to speak with me one on one about his version of Christianity. He claimed that all (or he might've said most) Christians are wrong (unsure of the reasons so far), and that he wanted to present his views. He wanted a forum to be able to discuss his views one on one with me, and asked if I was receptive, of course I said yes. So that brings us to this thread. This thread will be a one on one discussion, and after a few posts develop I will create a peanut gallery thread for you to discuss it, should you choose. Guest123 and I may converse with the peanut gallery as well. You are allowed to set up a one on one discussion whenever you choose on this board, in any forum with your own rules, and we can alert the mod team to watch the thread, if you're interested in doing the same. Any posts not from guest123 or sapient in this thread will be moved to the peanut gallery or deleted.

So with that said, Guest123 the floor is yours. You can limit your posts to very brief thoughts or questions should you choose considering the one on one nature of our discussion.

Welcome aboard!

- Brian Sapient


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guest123
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Opening Statement

Sapient, I thank you for opening this discussion here on your website. Although I would like to clarify one thing from your opening paragraph: I am not claiming that Christianity is wrong. I am saying that the majority of those who proclaim to be "Christian" do not practice Christianity.

These "Christian" people, these people who started the crusades, these people who killed counless thousands in the inquisitions, these people who promote their 'feelings' and 'emotions' as fact and truth, these who force their beliefs onto those who do not want it, are not Christians.

The term "Christian" refers to one who follows Christ. Christians claim that Jesus Christ is their king and son of the living God. It is a rational statement to say that followers of a king would obey his rules. However, many "Christians" today do not follow the commands given by their king.

Rationally speaking, from a non-Christian viewpoint, it makes all Christians look incredibly ignorant and easy targets to criticize.


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I'm short on time, as I will

I'm short on time, as I will be in all of my posts,

Now, I assume there is more that you want to set forward, correct?

I must ask you, what do you think one needs to do to be a Christian?

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Correct, there is much more

Correct, there is much more I have to set forward. Smiling

For one to be a Christian one must, as I stated before, be a follower of Christ. However, the Bible, the set of rules and standards of God-fearing people, states in the first part of Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Then what makes a Christian a Christian? The second part of Matthew 7:21: "but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven."

This says that he that "doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" shall "enter into the kingdom of heaven."

To build on my analogy of a king and those who follow him, Jesus says to those who follow him in Luke 6:46 : "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Jesus rebukes those who follow him and challenges their sincerity! He says what one needs to be a Christian in Matthew 19:16:

16 And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17  And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus says right here what one needs to be a Christian: Keep the commandments if you want to enter into (eternal) life.

But this is where many "Christians" need to be smacked! Keeping the commandments of God! Because of the failure to do so, many "Christians" misrepresent Jesus' message and preach in ignorance of God's word.


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guest123 wrote: But this is

guest123 wrote:

But this is where many "Christians" need to be smacked! Keeping the commandments of God! Because of the failure to do so, many "Christians" misrepresent Jesus' message and preach in ignorance of God's word.

Salvation is by faith alone.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:20
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.

Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?

Romans 4:13
For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Salvation is not by faith alone.

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Sapient
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Guest would you allow

Guest would you allow Todangst to enter the discussion with me considering my intense workload right now?

- Brian Sapient


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guest123 wrote:16 And

guest123 wrote:
16 And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17  And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus says right here what one needs to be a Christian: Keep the commandments if you want to enter into (eternal) life.

Which commandments is Jesus refering to? The one's He mentions in Matthew?

-YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Or the one's in Mark 10:19 and Luke 18:20?
( Notice Mark and Luke omit the "Love your neighbor as yourself" commandment)

Or is Jesus referring to all the commandments of the Old Testament?
Like for instance the dietary laws
or stoning to death unruly children
or
Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.


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Todangst, all of the verses

Todangst, all of the verses you have listed are very applicable to the point I am making. I disagree with the first statement however, "Salvation is by faith alone." This will be my first point of false Christianity.

To start, let me establish that the Bible describes Jesus as the king of His church. In Jesus' exchange with Pontious Pilate in John 18:33, Jesus makes it clear that He has a kingdom.

36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

After the Day of Pentecost, this word kingdom can be used interchangeably with church, for Jesus' kingdom is the church He came to establish here on earth.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power."
--1 Corinthians 15:24

The church at Corinth was confused (on many things) and Paul wrote several letters and made visits to help them stay faithful in both spirit and truth. In 1 Corinthians 15, also known as the great resurrection chapter, Paul describes that when the end of the world comes and Jesus returns, "He shall deliver up the kingdom to God." This kingdom composes of those who "come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29)."

Jesus is the king of His kingdom, which is not of this world, and is still present today. The majority of "Christians" are those who "follow Jesus" or "accept Him as their personal savior." They claim He gives them "powers to speak in tongues" or "powers to heal." They say the "stronger faith they have, the more spiritual gifts Jesus will give them."

These "Christians" are not followers of Christ. True followers of Christ are those who follow all the commandments!

Shayne26, all the commandments refers to the commandments of the New Law which was established upon Jesus' death. I will elaborate more later, but I am pressed for time now. I will post more response at my next avaiblable chance.


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Sapient I would be delighted

Sapient I would be delighted to have Todangst enter the discussion. As I stated before, I only wanted this atmosphere to eliminate as many distractions and tangents as possible.


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guest123 wrote:Todangst, all

guest123 wrote:
Todangst, all of the verses you have listed are very applicable to the point I am making.

No, they aren't, and even you agree to this below.

Some say that all that matters is faith alone. Some say that works are necessary. They contradict each other.

The point of listing them was to illustrate that you are only citing parts of the bible that support your particular desire, and ignoring the passages that contradict you.

Another christian could do the opposite.

Quote:

I disagree with the first statement however, "Salvation is by faith alone." This will be my first point of false Christianity.

See, you do agree that all of the verses actually are not applicable to your argument. Some contradict your desire. You'll need to come up with some ad hoc rationalizations as to why the 'faith alone' statements really don't advocate faith alone.

Just like the 'faith alone' crowd will come up with some ad hoc rationalizations as to why 'works' really don't matter despite what books like the book of James say... they'll make those passages fit their belief, just like you'll shoehorn the 'faith alone' passages into your belief.

You can 'disagree' all you like, but your ad hoc rationalizations and biased redefinitions of terms don't interest me. The point is that another theist with a different set of ad hoc rationalizations can cite the same bible against you. Everyone's got 'the truth' - which means, in reality, that everyone's got the same ability to create ad hoc rationalizations to fit the "problem passages" into their viewpoint.

It should be a parlor game. "Make the problem passage fit!" The game works with someone picking a particular view (really doesn't matter which), then everyone has to find a way to make it fit into that view... the best rationalization wins.

Don't just scoff at that, it's not just in jest... seriously, imagine you were on the 'other team', the 'faith only' crowd. How would you argue their point? Couldn't you argue it better than they could, if you had to?

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Sapient This thread will be

Sapient wrote:
This thread will be a one on one discussion, and after a few posts develop I will create a peanut gallery thread for you to discuss it, should you choose.

Let's keep this thread clear folks, no more new posters! I don't have the time required for it but Todangst does, so he'll act as RRS council, I'll try to make points wherever possible.

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient wrote:Sapient wrote:

Sapient wrote:
Sapient wrote:
This thread will be a one on one discussion, and after a few posts develop I will create a peanut gallery thread for you to discuss it, should you choose.

Let's keep this thread clear folks, no more new posters! I don't have the time required for it but Todangst does, so he'll act as RRS council, I'll try to make points wherever possible.

actually, I think I've made my point.. the specifics of his ad hoc rationalizations are immaterial, what matters is that there are other theists who argue the precise opposite, using the same bible.....

That's the issue he needs to explore. So far, his analysis of this phenomena amounts to just writing them off entirely.... but the reality is, if he were born into a house of 'faith only"-ites, he'd be arguing the other side with the same zeal, and the same modus operandi...

So my point here is that the method is the madness... ad hoc rationalizations don't cut it...

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Todangst, even if it does

Todangst, even if it does not seem as though all these verses are applicable, they are. Unfortuately, you have stumbled into the same problem as many so called "Christians" do. You have only cited specific verses and not their contexts, also known as "cherry picking" the verses you wish to apply.

For example, in your "Salvation is by faith only" section of scriptures, you cited John 3:18, 36.

John 3:18 states: "He that believeth on him is not judged; he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God."

With this verse alone, it is rational to assume that belief is enough for salvation. However to stop here, one loses the point without the context.

John 3:20-21 states: "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.  But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God."

You see? In context, John 3:18 and John 3:20-21 make excellent points. I said I disagreed with your statement "Salavation is by faith alone" not because I feel faith is unnecessary. I agree but also disagree with your statement "Salvation is not by faith alone" as well. John 3 shows us that salvation requires both faith and works. These works are signs of faith.

Jesus requires of his followers that they follow His (God's) commandments. Consider for a moment a commandment given in Matthew:

"Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
--Matthew 19:19

How can one obey this commandment without a sign of obedience? Works, or signs of obedience, are a necessary part of salvation.

On the flipside, in your section "Salvation is not by faith alone" you cited James 2:17.

James 2:17 states: "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself." The context of James 2 explains that works are necessary for salvation.

Read on in James 2:18: "Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith."

This verse shows two people, one who says they have faith alone, another who says they have works alone. The one makes the challenge "show me your faith apart from your works and i'll show you my works apart from my faith." This is an impossiblity.

He says "By my works I will show thee my faith." As a rational responder, you promote rational thinking. Faith alone cannot prove something to somebody (a point you criticize "Christians" for), however proof of faith is how you prove it.

Jesus tells his followers as I showed in Matthew 9:19 to "Love your neighbor as yourself." How to you prove this statement? To say I have faith in this statement, does this prove it? Or is the proof in the action of how you treat your neighbor?

So you see Todangst, Salvation according to the Bible, requires both faith and works. Be wary of "cherry picking" verses to disprove Christianity with the Bible. If one wishes to cite verses, one must also cite the context and use both to prove the point of the given scriptures.


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To filter this into my

To filter this into my point, I want to clarify something before I continue. I am not arguing the "faith only Christians" and I am not arguing the "faith by works Christians." Right or not, I am not arguing the doctrine of a "Christian" denomination. This is my point exactly, and this is why you can present arguments such as "faith only" or "faith by works" to most so called "Christians."

I aim to explain what true Christianity is in this thread. Not what true Lutheranism is, not what true Catholicism is, not what true Jehovah's Witness are, I'm here to explain what true Christianity is an what it stands for.

All these denominations preach from the same Bible and yet they have so many differences. The word "denomination" literally means division, and the last thing Jesus Christ preached was division!

I have listened in on chats between atheists and Christians, and one thing stands out in my mind: atheists hate it when ignorant Christians make claims about what atheists think. As I stated before, I am here to present Christianity to you, the Christianity that is not what you think of when you hear the word "Christianity."

However, time constrains me. I will elaborate on this point in my next post. This will give you time to ponder my last post.


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Ultimatum

todangst wrote:
actually, I think I've made my point.. the specifics of his ad hoc rationalizations are immaterial, what matters is that there are other theists who argue the precise opposite, using the same bible..... That's the issue he needs to explore. So far, his analysis of this phenomena amounts to just writing them off entirely.... but the reality is, if he were born into a house of 'faith only"-ites, he'd be arguing the other side with the same zeal, and the same modus operandi... So my point here is that the method is the madness... ad hoc rationalizations don't cut it...

Todangst, you use phrases like "ad hoc rationalizations" and "modus operandi" because you are very intelligent.  Unfortunately, this does not make you wise.  I find it funny that one of the greatest supporters of open-minded thought could so easily rule out the possibility of a higher power, but that's the beauty of what God has given mankind: free will and choice.

 Whether you consider it "ad hoc" or not, life is dictated by personal choices.  You may try and "rationalize" otherwise, but we each choose to live our lives how we choose to do so.  God has given us a choice my friend, we are either with him or against him (Matthew 12:40).  God gives us an ultimatum here, and no matter how you look at it, this requires a choice.  It doesn't matter if we like it or not, we either choose to be with God, or choose to not be with God. 

You have chosen to not be with God by not even acknowleging his presence, but that is just fine.  You have that God-given right to do this.  This does not make you right, but you have the right to believe or not believe whatever you want or don't want to believe.

Sapient, although you did not want to come across as a "good guy," as you say you believe the same as todangst does, you showed respect and decency, and that to me is very encouraging.  Through your kindness I saw God in you, whether you acknowledge it or not, and I want you to know that this has inspired me to be an even better Christian.

I hope for all of your sakes that you keep up your fight!  Continue to try and disprove the Bible and the existance of God!  If you are sincere, you will find the truth one day.  Just don't make the same mistake that you mock many "Christians" for making: don't tangle emotion and feelings with fact and truth.  With this in mind, you will one day find what you're looking for.

Thank you all again for your time, I really appreciate the discussions we've had.  If in the future you wish to talk again, simply post in this forum.  I'll check back periodically to see.  If you have a reaction to this post, I would very much like to see it, but if you choose Eye-wink not to post, then I can only leave it at that.

Choose well the way you live your lives my friends! Eye-wink I only pray you choose to make the right choices! Peace