The Argument from Evil absolutely destroys Christianity

person132
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The Argument from Evil absolutely destroys Christianity

Is God willing and able to end all evil?  Then from whence comes evil?

Is God willing, but not able?  Then He is not omnipotent.

Is God able, but not willing?  Then He is malevolent.

Is God neither able nor willing?  Then why call him God?

Please, Christians, give me an answer. 

If I am wrong on any point (including, but not limited to, spelling, grammar, and the question of God's existence), please correct me as quickly as possible.


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bump

bump

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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It's a test/God works in

It's a test/God works in mysterious ways Undecided.


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person132 wrote: Is God

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I'm sure their answer is something like this:

Quote:
Because shut up, that's why!

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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Quote: person132 wrote:

Quote:
person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I'm sure their answer is something like this:

 

Quote:
Because shut up, that's why!
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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person132 wrote: Is God

person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil?  Then from whence comes evil?

Please, Christians, give me an answer. 

I'm an Ex-Christian,so i'll answer your first question: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Nero(in response to a Youth pastor) wrote:

You are afraid and should be thus.  We look to eradicate your god from everything but history books.  We bring rationality and clear thought to those who choose lives of ignorance.  We are the blazing, incandescent brand that will leave an "A" so livid, so scarlet on your mind that you will not go an hour without reflecting on reality.


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person132 wrote: Is God

person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil?  Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes.  2 From the devil.

person132 wrote:
Is God willing, but not able?

 No, He is willing and able.

person132 wrote:
   Then He is not omnipotent.

Your conclusion is false because it does not logically follow from your premise. God IS willing and IS able.

person132 wrote:
Is God able, but not willing? 

No, He is able and willing.

person132 wrote:
  Then He is malevolent.

Again, your conclusion is false because the premise is false. No one ever claimed He was un willing.

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing?  Then why call him God?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from their premises. Your premises are invalid. God IS willing and IS ABLE. That is why He is God.

Nice try, but you failed utterly to "destroy Christianity." It is fully inact as everLaughing


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person132 wrote:

[MOD EDIT: double post]


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I was right! evfimy

I was right!

evfimy wrote:

person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil? Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes. 2 From the devil.

 

person132 wrote:
Is God willing, but not able?

No, He is willing and able.

 

person132 wrote:
Then He is not omnipotent.

Your conclusion is false because it does not logically follow from your premise. God IS willing and IS able.

 

person132 wrote:
Is God able, but not willing?

No, He is able and willing.

 

person132 wrote:
Then He is malevolent.

Again, your conclusion is false because the premise is false. No one ever claimed He was un willing.

 

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from their premises. Your premises are invalid. God IS willing and IS ABLE. That is why He is God.

Nice try, but you failed utterly to "destroy Christianity." It is fully inact as everLaughing

In other words...

Quote:
Because SHUT UP, that's why!

The point of the original post is basically this question:

"If God can destroy evil, and he wants to, then why doesn't he?"

If God wishes to destroy evil but lacks the power to do so, he is NOT omnipotent - he doesn't have the power to do all things.

If God can destroy evil but does not wish to do so, he is NOT omnibenevolent - he is not all-loving.

If God lacks the power to destory evil and the desire to do so, why worship him? In this case, he cannot help us(lack of power) and would not help us anyway(no desire to destroy evil).

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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For those interested, this

For those interested, this is called the riddle of Epicurus.

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evfimy wrote: person132

evfimy wrote:
person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil? Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes. 2 From the devil.

person132 wrote:
Is God willing, but not able?

No, He is willing and able.

person132 wrote:
Then He is not omnipotent.

Your conclusion is false because it does not logically follow from your premise. God IS willing and IS able.

person132 wrote:
Is God able, but not willing?

No, He is able and willing.

person132 wrote:
Then He is malevolent.

Again, your conclusion is false because the premise is false. No one ever claimed He was un willing.

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from their premises. Your premises are invalid. God IS willing and IS ABLE. That is why He is God.

Nice try, but you failed utterly to "destroy Christianity." It is fully inact as everLaughing

I'm sorry, but you seem to have misinterpereted my post.  I was merely presenting responses to the four possible combinations of answers to the two questions "Is God willing to end all evil?" and "Is God able to end all evil?".  You seem to answer "yes" to both questions.  

In that case, there is no reason that evil exists; God would never allow it to start, and if it somehow did, he would end it, as you indicate he is willing and able to do.  Since we observe evil, it follows that God cannot exist as you describe him. 

 

If I am wrong on any point (including, but not limited to, spelling, grammar, and the question of God's existence), please correct me as quickly as possible.


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For future reference, the

For future reference, the god of the Christian Bible is not omnibenevolent. This is very obvious, especially when he killed the first born child of every egyptian. Any Christian who says that the God they worship is omnibenevolent is a dunce.

My question is rather simple, though. Why worship something that can stomp out evil/pain/whatever? 


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person132 wrote: In that

person132 wrote:

In that case, there is no reason that evil exists; God would never allow it to start, and if it somehow did, he would end it, as you indicate he is willing and able to do. Since we observe evil, it follows that God cannot exist as you describe him. 

I envision this argument coming down the pike:

"god is willing and able to end evil.  But first he had to come down and die for us."

There are no theists on operating tables.

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evfimy wrote: person132

evfimy wrote:
person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil?  Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes.  2 From the devil.

 Then what originally led the devil astray?  He invented evil so that he could succumb to his evil impulses and rebel against God?  And wouldn't that make Lucifer ridiculously more powerful than any simple angel could ever hope to become?  He filled an otherwise ideal and beautiful world that God created with sin?  Why would God allow an angel to have so much power?  Or did he derive additional power from another source?  In that case, wouldn't God not be omnipotent?    


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The problem with the riddle

The problem with the riddle is that it fails to properly define evil. Also, it does not set parameters toward what God is or is not capable of. Plus, there's always the whole "mysterious" thing they throw around. After all, you can't prove that any "evil" thing doesn't bring about some "good" things (especially without defining and quantifying them). So the problem with that particular problem of evil argument is that it neither tells us what evil is, nor provides us an example about which it cannot be argued that an omnibenevolent being would allow evil to happen in order for a greater good to be served.

Really, though, my biggest beef comes from the last line of the riddle. As a believer in a non-omni-god, I'm curious as to the line of reasoning in the last question. Must a being be omnipotent and omnibenevolent in order to be considered a god? Obviously not. So the question is, as far as I'm concerned, completely irrelevant to the problem of evil itself, and is also a bit offensive to those who don't follow with the whole omni business. 

Those are my thoughts. 


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LosingStreak06 said. "The

LosingStreak06 said. "The problem with the riddle is that it fails to properly define evil."

Maybe after you can coherently define "god" we can discuss evil. 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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Randalllord

Randalllord wrote:

LosingStreak06 said. "The problem with the riddle is that it fails to properly define evil."

Maybe after you can coherently define "god" we can discuss evil.

God is a fruit smoothie. Done, and done.


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The old "problem of evil"

The old "problem of evil" question is certainly as old as mankind itself. It's been pondered by man for all of recorded history, and I'm sure the last man will still be scratching his head over it asking "why?". I'd like to share the best explanation I've run across, which is a distillation of the thoughts of Rabbi Harold Kushner as written in his book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" (with a few thoghts of my own tossed in here and there).

In the case of nature, the universe is guided by wonderfully precise and reliable laws. Because of this, we can be certain that certain actions will yield the same result each and every time. The law of gravity assures the builder that he can build a house without having his materials float away every time he turns his back. Because of the laws of chemistry, when we mix certain chemicals together in the correct proportions, under the right conditions, we know that a certain substance will reulst, thus doctors can prescribe medications, and know what effect they will have on his patient.

The flip side of these immutable laws is that evil can happen through them as well. Thus, when a mass of snow becomes too heavy to resist the attraction of gravity, it begins to move downhill resulting in an avalanche which destroys a village. The same chemicals, applied in a different dosage, or mixed in different proportions yield dangerous toxins polluting our evironment, rather than medicines helping to cure disease. That is when the same laws of nature come back to bite us in the ass.

These laws effect everyone equally. The apply their good and bad effects across the board without passion of prejudice.

God has, occassionally, interfered in natural processes to impose, or to display his will, but were he to do so every time he was invoked, the laws of nature would be reduced to the "suggestions" or "recommendations" of nature. The very things which make it possible for us to manipulate our environment to achieve our goals and desires would become impossible at worst, unpredictable at best.

The evils caused by mankind, on the other hand, are driven by our rational nature. Our ability to reason and to choose courses of action determines the amount of evil we cause.

Let's say for example, that I'm in some sort of business with a partner. If we make good business decisions, all should be well, and hopefully, our business is successful. But if things should go awry, and the business starts to go down the tubes, I may be faced with some choices, all of which are "evil". I can let the business defualt and just walk away, with dire economic consequences for all involved, I can delare bankruptcy and limit that fiscal impact somewhat, or I can kill my partner and use the insurance money to shore up the business. My choice affects the amount of evil introduced into the world.

 

 

[MOD EDIT: Text changed to readable color.]

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 totus_tuussaid, "God has,

 totus_tuussaid, "God has, occassionally, interfered in natural processes to impose, or to display his will,...."

 Can you offer any proof this has ever occured? 

 Also you should explain what you mean by "evil". 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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You stupid atheists know

You stupid atheists know nothing The Flying Spaghetti Monster (God) likes his beer and is often completely pissed and incapable of helping.

 

You think its easy being the supreme creator of the universe, do this do that sometimes deities want to chill, have a beer see a stripper show, but all you mortals do is whine moan and pray

Get a life

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LosingStreak06 wrote: The

LosingStreak06 wrote:

The problem with the riddle is that it fails to properly define evil.

All we postulate is that some sort of evil exists (whatever the Christian definition of "evil" is). 

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Also, it does not set parameters toward what God is or is not capable of.

The Christian God is omnipotent.  Would you like a bible verse?

The Bible wrote:

Revelation 19:6  - The Lord God omnipotent reigneth

 

 

LosingStreak06 wrote:

After all, you can't prove that any "evil" thing doesn't bring about some "good" things (especially without defining and quantifying them).

The problem is that a benevolent, omnipotent God would create circumstances such that the evil would be unnecessary for the greater good.  Such a God could cause all the Good in the world without any Evil being necessary - because he is omnipotent. 

Thank you very much for posting reasonably.

 


 

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If God is not all powerful,

If God is not all powerful, why is that so bad? What if God is just a guiding force of love in people's lives, nothing more.

I really don't see how the problem of evil debunks Christianity, although I am not a Christian. The religion began after a brutal execution.

Finally, stop using the word "impotent." That always makes it sound like God has a low sperm count.

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A semi-powerful "god"

A semi-powerful "god" wouldn't be "yahweh" (like, yeah way). "Impotence" means "god" can't get it up.


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Randalllord wrote:  Can

Randalllord wrote:

 Can you offer any proof this has ever occured? 

Probably not to your satisfaction.

Randalllord wrote:

 Also you should explain what you mean by "evil". 

I'm willing to accept the defintion of evil as that which is harmful or injurious.

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Christos wrote: Finally,

Christos wrote:
Finally, stop using the word "impotent." That always makes it sound like God has a low sperm count.

magilum wrote:
"Impotence" means "god" can't get it up.

The two of you owe me a new keyboard Laughing

 

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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Christos wrote: If God is

Christos wrote:

If God is not all powerful, why is that so bad? What if God is just a guiding force of love in people's lives, nothing more.

The Bible wrote:

Revelation 19:6  - The Lord God omnipotent reigneth

 

 

If I am wrong on any point (including, but not limited to, spelling, grammar, and the question of God's existence), please correct me as quickly as possible.


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The argument from evil only

The argument from evil only works if you expect Christianity to be logical. It is not.


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That is a very thought

That is a very thought provoking but a very old argument. It was answered in the 1850's or so by a man named Charles Finney in his systmeatic theology. His book is about three inches thick, and is full for terms that you may need a dictionary to understand. Terms like benevolence (disposition to love)and, malevolence (disposition to hate) and desert ( what someone deserves). He is however exceedingly thorough in his answers, and I have never heard anyone come close to being as convincing as he was. Dont you think that good questions deserve good answers? And this is a well formed question. I will do the best I can to answer it, from a Christians perspective, with no malevolence or undercurrent involved.

 

In order to even begin to answer this question, I hope that you will let me take a couple of things for granted ( that is, what God would be like if he existed).

 

The God of Christianity is Benevolent, ( all Love) Omnicient ( all Knowing) and Omnipotent ( all Powerfull). The way that your argument is stated was stated a little different in the 1800's , but basicly it follows that if in order to expalin the exisitance of evil, one must deny any one of these three of God's attributes, then they have also in effect denied the God of the Bible.

Finney goes so far as to prove that none of these attributes need to be denied to prove the existance of the God of the Bible.

First of all, let us go to the beginning. In Genisis it says that we are created in the "Image" of God. One of the definitions of the word image is "stick figure", like what a little child would draw of his family. So, in a nutshell, if you want to get just a glimpse of God, that is a "stick figure" glimpse, we are that "image".

We all know that we have a free will, so does God. We have emotions, knowledge etc, so does God. This is taken for granted in the Bible.

One of the attributes of God is Love. Love always wants the best for the individual that is loved, even when they dont want it for themselves. It is said that God is not willing that anyone should perish. You ask then, Why do they perish. I answer, it is not because he does not Love them. In any court of law, one of the rules of evidence that we must follow is that of "innocent until proven guilty". That is that we take it for granted that the defendant has good will unless the evidence proves otherwise. For now, putting God as the defendant, we can take it for granted that he loves us. He says that he does. Now for the other two attributes.

If God is Love, then whe does he let evil exist? Well, witch evil? There are many kinds, there are the evils of our own making, and he evils that others do to us, and there are evil circumstances, ( wrong place wrong time) It really is a big question it could be a paragraph long, just his part of it. Well, lets break it down. First of all, he lets evil exist in mankind, because they are created in his image. He has free will and so do we. Therefore this answer to this part of the question gets two attributes with one answer. God cannot do what it is not wise for him to do. Because he loves us, he wants us to respond in love. To force us to serve him is in effect to destroy our freedom. The only thing that an all powerfull and all wise God who loves us cannot do, is that witch is not wise for him to do. This in effect is a simple answer to that age old question, though both the question and the answer may be expanded on. I am  sorry that I do not have more time. This answer adresses all moral agents (people with free will and an intellect to know right and wrong) and pardon the simple answer, but other evils that dont involve moral agents can also be answerd with the same agrument basically. It is not wise for God to do, or to allow to be done other than he has allowed, and to disagree with this is in effect to take for granted that one has the knowledge on how a universe as complex as ours could be run better than it is run under his government without destroying the enviornment, morality, and life in the universe as we know it. 

 

I will let Finney Comment a little on this, on the moral aspects of evil and I will post more later if you are interested. ( this at least generally answers the whole question without going into the "whys" of Gods wisdom. If one does takes into account the law of evidence before mentioned "innocent until proven guilty" this will make some sence for a general answer. If we need to be more specific about what we mean by evil, that can be answered as well. Here is part of the answer for the moral aspect of evil that God allows to exist in the world. That is, when people hurt people.

 

"God must have purposed to secure, so far as he wisely could, obedience to the laws of the universe, both physical and moral. These laws were established for the sake of the end to which they tended, and obedience to them must have been regarded by God as of real, though not ultimate value, equal to that of the end, for the accomplishment of which they were ordained. He must have delighted in obedience to these laws for the sake of the end, and must have purposed to secure this obedience so far as he could in the nature of things; that is, in so far forth as he wisely could. Since moral law is a rule for the government of free moral agents, it is conceivable that in some cases this law might be violated by the subjects of it unless God resorted to means to prevent it, that might introduce an evil of greater magnitude than the violation of the law in the instances under consideration would be. It is conceivable that in some cases God might be able so to overrule a violation of his laws, physical and moral, as upon the whole to secure a greater good than could be secured by introducing such a change into the policy and measures of his administration, or so framing his administration as to prevent altogether the violation of any law. God might, and no doubt does prefer that every creature should, in the precise circumstances in which he is placed, obey all the laws of his being. But if under these circumstances, voluntary agents will in any case disobey, their disobedience, though a real, may be a less evil than such a change in the administration of his government as would prevent the violation, would be. In this case he might regard the violation as the less of two evils, and suffer it rather than change the arrangements of his government. He might sincerely deplore and abhor these violations of law, and yet might see it not wise to prevent them, because the measures necessary to prevent them might result in an evil of still greater magnitude. He might purpose to suffer these violations, and take the trouble to overrule them so far as was possible for the promotion of the end he had in view, rather than interpose for their prevention. These violations he might not have purposed in any other sense than that he foresaw them and purposed not to prevent them, but on the contrary to suffer them to occur and to overrule them for good, so far as this was practicable. These events, or violations of law, have no natural tendency to promote the highest well-being of God and of the universe, but have in themselves a directly opposite tendency. Nevertheless God could so overrule them as that these occurrences would be a less evil than that change would be that could have prevented them.

Violations of law, then, he might have purposed only to suffer( or allow), while obedience to law he might have designed to produce or secure"

 

So Finney basicly says here that God will not make everyone obey his law in every circumstance, even though we might be talking about the person who is doing us wrong, because to do so will create a change in the way that he governs the affairs of men, and may result in more harm to the human race than good towards it in the end. So in short, he loves us. More later.

 

 


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Earth Round

Actually Magilum,

The Bible teaches that the earth is round in Isaiah. Some people debate the point, argue of the tense of words though, and then when it is proven resort to saying that other cultures knew that the world was round so its not a big deal. All I can say is that, it would be hard to believe in a God who didnt know the earth was round, and the Bible does teach that it is.

 But the alternative is to believe that we are all just an accident, with no reason to live, with no good reason to be here. I know of a guy named Ravi Zacharias, when he was a kid in school, alost succeeded  in killing himself in India thinking about the fact that , because there is so much pain in the world, if it has no purpose, nothingness would be better than a painfull somethingness. I think that many of you could agree, if you know pain.

 I cannot help but to think that God has a purpose for all of us....and if we dont find it, what is there to find at all? Oh spiritual vacume stinks....somethingk will try to fill it....just hope that it is the truth.


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Earth Round

Actually Magilum,

The Bible teaches that the earth is round in Isaiah. Some people debate the point, argue of the tense of words though, and then when it is proven resort to saying that other cultures knew that the world was round so its not a big deal. All I can say is that, it would be hard to believe in a God who didnt know the earth was round, and the Bible does teach that it is.

 But the alternative is to believe that we are all just an accident, with no reason to live, with no good reason to be here. I know of a guy named Ravi Zacharias, when he was a kid in school, alost succeeded  in killing himself in India thinking about the fact that , because there is so much pain in the world, if it has no purpose, nothingness would be better than a painfull somethingness. I think that many of you could agree, if you know pain.

 I cannot help but to think that God has a purpose for all of us....and if we dont find it, what is there to find at all? Oh spiritual vacume stinks....somethingk will try to fill it....just hope that it is the truth.


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Excuse me, Crucified, but

Excuse me, Crucified, but what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I responded to a flippant remark about "god" being "impotent."


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Oh, and LOL about the bible

Oh, and LOL about the bible "getting it right" about the earth being a sphere. That's been debunked so many times, along with hundreds of other biblical claims, it's not even funny. Go read... anything. NO, EXCEPT THAT! Haha.


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Re: what the ?

Hey man, chill out. No need to crucify me here. I was just responding to a quote that you have on all of your posts that I have read. That is...

"The Bible, it seems certain, was the work of sand-strewn men and women who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking example of emerging technology." -- Sam Harris, The End of Faith

 

And also to continue disproving that statement, if you dont mind, man did not invent the wheel, just the wheelbarrow maybee. There is a desert spider that forms itself into a wheel to escape desert predators, and can roll down a sandune at approximately 40 rotations per second. That is the Equivalent of a tire rotating on a car going 200 miles per hour. Also extra, female moths emit radio waves that male moths can detect....truly there is nothing new under the sun. Electric eels really are electric....up to 400 volts or so! Einstein was right when he said that the real secret to creativity was knowing how to hide your scources. The Scorce for creativity is, in fact, the Creator Himself.

If you are going to curse me out, at least let me respond to it rationally, and please consider that just because I am a Christian doesnt mean that it doesnt hurt to be cursed at. Unless you are taking it for granted that I have some supernatural power that makes it easier for me to bear it, I am sure that you must know that it hurts. In fact, the power that I have is simply a genuine concern for your soul. That is the only reason why I bear it, besides that I believe that God has a concern for your soul.

"Every one that is alive still has hope"

-King Solomon-

That is what I believe...that you have a hope.


Crucified
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Why erase my answer?

It was a good answer. God cannot do what it is not wise for him to do was the final point. Do you really want an answer, or to just mess up people who are sincere, but havent taken any classes on logic?


magilum
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You're responding to the

You're responding to the fucking sig? Whatever.

Crucified wrote:
And also to continue disproving that statement, if you dont mind, man did not invent the wheel, just the wheelbarrow maybee. There is a desert spider that forms itself into a wheel to escape desert predators, and can roll down a sandune at approximately 40 rotations per second. That is the Equivalent of a tire rotating on a car going 200 miles per hour.

So the spider was an invention? Oh, right, "goddidit." Can we get a "theist" tag over here, please?
Crucified wrote:
Also extra, female moths emit radio waves that male moths can detect....truly there is nothing new under the sun. Electric eels really are electric....up to 400 volts or so! Einstein was right when he said that the real secret to creativity was knowing how to hide your scources. The Scorce for creativity is, in fact, the Creator Himself.

You see no difference between a phenomena in nature, and humans devising ways to utilize said phenomena? Following your example, there's no difference between a lightning bolt and a turbine. A rock and a silicon wafer. That last sentence is just a laugh.
Crucified wrote:
If you are going to curse me out, at least let me respond to it rationally, and please consider that just because I am a Christian doesnt mean that it doesnt hurt to be cursed at. Unless you are taking it for granted that I have some supernatural power that makes it easier for me to bear it, I am sure that you must know that it hurts.

Then drop the attitude that you're going to "show those atheists" with your cut and paste job.
Crucified wrote:
In fact, the power that I have is simply a genuine concern for your soul. That is the only reason why I bear it, besides that I believe that God has a concern for your soul.

It's funny how Christians pretend to be doing something when they ain't.


Fish
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Crucified wrote: It was a

Crucified wrote:

It was a good answer. God cannot do what it is not wise for him to do was the final point. Do you really want an answer, or to just mess up people who are sincere, but havent taken any classes on logic?

God has set limits and rules to the world. For example, it is impossible for a person to fly. This does not impede on any person's free will.

God could have set limits on the world which would make it impossible for evil to be done. This would also not impede on a person's free will.

Why didn't he?

(if you would argue that the inability to fly IS an imposition on free will, but god decided in his "wisdom" that it was necessary and worth the loss of freedom, you will have to address why it isn't wise to also limit free will enough to inable people from committing evil, which seems much more important)


Thomathy
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evfimy wrote:

evfimy wrote:
person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil? Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes. 2 From the devil.

person132 wrote:
Is God willing, but not able?

No, He is willing and able.

person132 wrote:
Then He is not omnipotent.

Your conclusion is false because it does not logically follow from your premise. God IS willing and IS able.

person132 wrote:
Is God able, but not willing?

No, He is able and willing.

person132 wrote:
Then He is malevolent.

Again, your conclusion is false because the premise is false. No one ever claimed He was un willing.

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from their premises. Your premises are invalid. God IS willing and IS ABLE. That is why He is God.

Nice try, but you failed utterly to "destroy Christianity." It is fully inact as everLaughing



I'm not sure if anyone caught this, but if in point one of this refutation god is willing and and able to end evil and evil came from the devil, then this god created evil and hasn't gotten rid of it why?... or else the devil is the other god we just don't talk about... but then, in Christianity I thought that the devil was a fallen angel and angels god's creation and god the only god with all his godly characteristics... well, we see where that ends up. So, the answer is still not given by this person. Begging me to ask: If god is willing and able to end evil, why is there evil? (hint: 'the devil made evil' does not answer the question, it leads back to God and the rest of the questions and conclusions remain valid...) Is this God just fine with evil? Does he like evil and want it to stay and that's why he doesn't act or can the devil prevent him from getting rid of evil? The first makes him malevolent, the second makes him not omnipotent. The two together would certainly (if one or the other doesn't) make him not god and then would beg the question, 'Why call him god?' It's really easy, just answer the questions.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


Larty
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evfimy wrote: person132

evfimy wrote:
person132 wrote:

Is God willing and able to end all evil? Then from whence comes evil?

1 Yes. 2 From the devil.

person132 wrote:
Is God willing, but not able?

No, He is willing and able.

person132 wrote:
Then He is not omnipotent.

Your conclusion is false because it does not logically follow from your premise. God IS willing and IS able.

person132 wrote:
Is God able, but not willing?

No, He is able and willing.

person132 wrote:
Then He is malevolent.

Again, your conclusion is false because the premise is false. No one ever claimed He was un willing.

person132 wrote:
Is God neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Your conclusions do not logically follow from their premises. Your premises are invalid. God IS willing and IS ABLE. That is why He is God.

That was the biggest bastardization of logic I have ever seen Smiling.

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


zwan94
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Why?

Why? Because Creationist NEED something to create.   How phony it sounds to them is irrelevant. 


rpcarnell
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The basis for the concept

The basis for the concept of a God is that everything needs a creator, everything needs an engineer. Then comes the idea that this creator is a superior entity, perfect, lovable, smart, etc, etc.

 

But eventually someone will ask the question: why is the world so imperfect? Scientists would say we evolved from lower apes, but that doesn't mean we are perfect and rational most of the time, nor is the planet perfect because it is a cooling planet, meaning tectonic plates are as stable as Robin Williams, and the weather can be as cute as Ann Coulter on PMS. But these answers won't please most Christians because they want to feel sure there's an imaginary friend looking over them. 

So why is mankind imperfect, and why is the planet so aggressive toward us?

The answer is "evil". According to them we are in a fallen creation. We are being punished because Eve and Adam ate an apple because a talking snake asked them to. We can't blame Adam and Eve for this mishap. Keep in mind God paraded all the species of animals before Adam and he named them all, so we are talking about Adam naming 1,000,000 classes of animals. Poor guy must've been suffering from mental exhaustion. He could've been tricked into eating dog shit for all we know. And Eve was younger than Adam by two or three days, so she hadn't been around that much. The apple made them evil by altering their brain chemistry, and this made their children evil as well, for an apple can alter human DNA. And now, because of them, we are living in a fallen creation, where earthquakes and hurricanes, torturers, suiciders are everywhere. Whenever someone uses an electrical jumper on some guy's nuts, it is because Adam and Eve ate an apple.

 

Has God tried to stop this? Yes. He flooded the Earth, killing everyone, but he selected Noah and his children to keep mankind alive. Unfortunately God didn't realize Noah was a drunk who would curse Ham for finding his skirt, or something dumb like it. Then there was Sodomah and Gomorrah. He destroyed that place, but the survivors engaged in an orgy later on, meaning the sodomy continued (I just don't know about that gomorra part). Then he sent Jesus, his son, but also God, his father, to save us all, and Jesus died for our sins, so now we can sin as much as we want to because Jesus died for our sins. Keep in mind Jesus is also God, and he is also the son of God, so this is pretty much like having one personality dying to please the other personality. Happens in mental hospitals. I guess. Jesus said stuff like "love thy neighbor," and somehow his teachings would save us all.

 

They didn't.  

 

So yes, God has tried to stop evil. He just keeps on failing.  

 

 

 


wavefreak
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rpcarnell wrote: The basis

rpcarnell wrote:

The basis for the concept of a God is that everything needs a creator, everything needs an engineer. Then comes the idea that this creator is a superior entity, perfect, lovable, smart, etc, etc.

 

But eventually someone will ask the question: why is the world so imperfect?

 

I don't believe in perfection. It is a useless concept on par with omniscient, omnipotent and supernatural.