Next time some idiot says America was founded by Christians show them this.

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Next time some idiot says America was founded by Christians show them this.

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiment in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy which has marked the present age would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination, so far that we should never again see their religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”-- George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, Oct. 20, 1792.


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Is that the same George

Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

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totus_tuus wrote: Is that

totus_tuus wrote:
Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

Well, here's two versions of his speech.  I don't see any 'so help me god' in either of them.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/inaug/wash1.htm

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=11&page=transcript

Where is your reference to this?

It doesn't matter, by the way, whether Washington addresses god or not.  That still doesn't make it a Christian nation.  A person can believe in god and not be a Christian.  A person can reference nature as god, for example.

There are many other threads with regard to this, perhaps you should peruse them a bit.

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totus_tuus wrote: Is that

totus_tuus wrote:
Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

You are arguing from the falacy of "We have always done it this way".

Even if, for pretend's sake, I baught your claim that Washinton believed in the Christian God, he would no more approve of a cross on the flag than you would a Star of David.

Look at the Constitution because that was the LAW that they wrote. When you look at it in several places it warns us not to mix government and religion.

The First Amendment says that government is neither for or against religion. Their intent was to prevent a monopoly and in laymens terms means, "We wont come after you, but on these issues do it on your own time with your own money"

"No Religious Test" does not force you to vote for an atheist. But it cannot prevent a Muslim(we now have one as senator) from running and getting ellected. He swore in on a Quran once owned by Thomas Jefferson BTW, not in the mass cerimony, but in his private cerimony.

Read the oath of office in the Constitution. There is no mention of Jesus or Allah or Yahwey or Vishnu. The "so help me God|" is strictly voluntary and NOT MANDITORY!

George Washington was a deist, not a Christian. He valued YOUR RIGHT and MY RIGHT to be free from government coiersion on issues of religion.

So does it suprise me that he did that? No, but you are confusing a voluntary act as being Constitutionally manditory.

My point is weither you want to accept it or not, there is nothing in the Constitution stopping a Jew or Muslim or atheist from partisipating in our highest offices. Certainly the public is not obligated to vote for anyone based on label. But I am tired of the false belief popularly sold that only Christians can run for office or should hold office.

If a Muslim citizen or Jewish Citizen or Atheist citizen apply for the legal documents to run for Govorner or City Council or even President, if those running get enough votes then they won the right to hold that office.

You are trying to falsely make the Constitution solely for "Christian use only and everyone else must take a back seat and not compete"

No one here wants to exclude Christians from political competition. What we are fighting against is the attitude that a mere label should prevent  a citizen from considering another.

The point is you dont own the rights to claim that OUR laws come strictly from YOUR holy book while all other people take a back seat to you.

We wont opress you via government force. But we are damned sure tired of being told that since we dont belong to your club that we are not allowed to compete.

There is only one club I see. The human race. There is only one nation which has the strongest Constitution to protect me from facism and theocracy.

You mistake "neutral government" with opression.  If you and I rented an apartment together. You would have your room, I would have mine. Things like the kitchen and living room would be common ground. You'd have the right to decorate your room the way you want, but how reasonable would you be if you didnt consider me in OUR common ground.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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There are some evidences for

There are some evidences for a Christian beginning: like the fact that everyone in office (or at least presidency, I think) and court rooms swears by the Bible when they take an oath.  Jefferson was at least a deist too, despite what some may say ... the first part of the Declaration of Independence says "All men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."  (I'm pretty sure that's word for word, correct me if it's not).  But what difference does it make if America was founded by Christians?  It doesn't give Christians any more power than they already have.

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totus_tuus wrote: Is that

totus_tuus wrote:
Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

 

Figure of speech, 


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I assume some Christians

I assume some Christians may just be confused about which foundation of "America" we are talking about.

Constitution of the Confederate States of America

The preamble inserted the words "invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God".

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Here's a collection of

Here's a collection of quotes that pretty much destroys the "America is a Christian nation" argument.

Most important to the law of the land are the 1st amendment (not cited here except obliquely through a Jeffersonian quote) and the Treaty of Tripoli coupled with the Supremacy Clause.  It's an airtight case assuring separation of church and state.


John Adams:


"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

George Washington:

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin:

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”


TREATY OF TRIPOLI:


"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries."


SUPREMACY CLAUSE: The supremacy clause is Clause 2 in Article VI of the United States Constitution. It establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." [emphasis mine] The Constitution is the highest form of law in the American legal system. State judges are required to uphold it, even if state laws or Constitutions conflict with it.


Treaties must comply with the Constitution. However, the treatymaking power of the U.S. Government is broader than the law making power of Congress. The Supreme Court ruled in Missouri v. Holland (1920) that pursuant to a treaty with Britain, the United States could regulate the hunting of migratory birds, even though Congress had no independent authority to pass such legislation.


Article VI, Clause 2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

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Psalm 14 1
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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Here's a collection of quotes that pretty much destroys the "America is a Christian nation" argument.

Most important to the law of the land are the 1st amendment (not cited here except obliquely through a Jeffersonian quote) and the Treaty of Tripoli coupled with the Supremacy Clause. It's an airtight case assuring separation of church and state.


John Adams:


"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

George Washington:

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin:

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”



 

That's a great appeal to authority but without the context of the quote, the essence is not preserved. Not to mention there's a great deal of quotes from Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein promoting theology, and I know that doesn't deal with the foundations of the USA, but without them where might our science world be at now?


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
There are some evidences for a Christian beginning: like the fact that everyone in office (or at least presidency, I think) and court rooms swears by the Bible when they take an oath. Jefferson was at least a deist too, despite what some may say ... the first part of the Declaration of Independence says "All men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." (I'm pretty sure that's word for word, correct me if it's not). But what difference does it make if America was founded by Christians? It doesn't give Christians any more power than they already have.

Have you ever read the Constitution? Go read the oath of office. "So Help Me God" IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE OATH! It is strictly voluntary, not manditory.

"No Religious Test" is also written in the Constitution. 

The Declaration of Independance is not LAW, it was a letter to the King of England and was written decades before the Constitution wich IS law.

Did it ever occure to you in that time period between the Declaration and the Constitution, that back and forth debates as to how "God" should be reperesented took place? Did it ever occure to you with that diverse group of people, when it finally came down to writing the actuall LAW wich is the Constitition, they chose not to mention any God or god because there would have been no fair way to do so because everyone was so different in their thinking.

They made the best law they could in the First Amendment, which has been hijacked to mean, "We can gang tag goverment property with OUR sectarian logo and pretend that we are not doing that".

What the First Amendment really says is, "On the issues mention here, we will not come after you nor will we favor or aid you, do it on your own time with your own money".

What you really should say that I would agree with is, "We have always had a Christian majority", but that doesnt mean that a Muslim or Jew or atheist cant run for office. Certainly we are not garunteed votes, but if we manage to get enough votes then we can be president. If a president wants to seat a Buddhist born in America on the Supreme Court, they can.

This is what most Christians dont want to hear. The lie being sold to both Christians and minorites outside the Christian label is that unless you swear to Jesus, you can never be president.

BULL! Jefferson denied the virgin birth and death of Jesus and classed the fable in the same catigory of Minerva being born out of the brian of Jupiter. He was not a Christian and he was a president.

"Christian beginings" only refures to culture, not government law and the LAW of the Constitution is there to be used by every citizen and lawyers and judges and Supreme Court judges dont have to be Christians to interpret it. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I cannot imagine a God who

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. 

I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. 

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. 

 In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself.

 It was the experience of mystery - even if mixed with fear - that engendered religion.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. 

That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.

-- Albert Einstein

So, again, your assertion is laid bare.  Yes, Einstein believed that religion had its uses, and was probably some kind of pantheist, but he was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian.

This has been addressed many times on this site.  You should do more reading and less typing.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Psalm 14 1 wrote: Iruka

Psalm 14 1 wrote:
Iruka Naminori wrote:

Here's a collection of quotes that pretty much destroys the "America is a Christian nation" argument.

Most important to the law of the land are the 1st amendment (not cited here except obliquely through a Jeffersonian quote) and the Treaty of Tripoli coupled with the Supremacy Clause. It's an airtight case assuring separation of church and state.


John Adams:


"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

George Washington:

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin:

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”



 

That's a great appeal to authority but without the context of the quote, the essence is not preserved. Not to mention there's a great deal of quotes from Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein promoting theology, and I know that doesn't deal with the foundations of the USA, but without them where might our science world be at now?

An appeal to authority? Where? When one uses quotes from a historical figure in an attempt to determine the figures beliefs it is not an appeal to authority. It is a legitimate method of attempting to understand the persons views. An appeal to authority would be to state without supporting evidence that George Washington believed such and such because 'scholar/expert' says so. Its important that if you are going to attempt to call people out for using fallacious reasoning you understand the actual fallacies you accuse them of using.

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The USA clearly isn't a

The USA clearly isn't a Christian nation.

The quote I'll Illustrate it with is old, but still (IMO) true. (Keep in mind it comes from an anarchist work)

Quote:

... But can you live a Christian life under present conditions? Does capitalism allow you to lead such a life? Will the government permit you to do so? Will even the church give you a chance to live a Christian life?

Just try it for a single day and see what happens to you.

As you leave your house in the morning, determine to be a Christian that day and speak only the truth. As you pass the policeman on the corner, remind him of Christ and His commandments. Tell him to 'love his enemy as himself', and persuade him to throw away his club and gun.

And when you meet the soldier on the street, impress it upon him that Jesus had said, 'Thou shalt not kill.'

In your shop or office speak the whole truth to you employer. Tell him of the Nazarene's warning. 'What shall it profit you to gain the whole earth and lose your soul and its salvation?' Mention that He commanded us to share our last loaf with the poor; that He said that the rich man has no more chance of getting into heaven than the camel can pass through the eye of a needle.

And when you are brought to court for disturbing the peace of the, good Christians, remind the Judge: 'Judge not that ye be not judged.'

You will be declared a fool or a madman, and they will send you to a lunatic asylum or to prison.

You can see, then, what rank hypocrisy it is for the sky pilot to preach the Christian life to you. He knows as well as you that under capitalism and government there is no more chance to lead a Christian life than for a camel to 'pass through the needle's eye'. All those good folks who pretend to be Christians are just hypocrites who preach what cannot be practiced, for they don't give you any opportunity to lead a Christian life. No, not even to lead an ordinarily decent and honest life, without sham and deceit, without pretense and lying.

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
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Quote: The USA clearly

Quote:

The USA clearly isn't a Christian nation.

The quote I'll Illustrate it with is old, but still (IMO) true. (Keep in mind it comes from an anarchist work)

Then what kind of nation are we?

 

You've taken all these quotes out of context.   To address the first two, the Bible also says to submit yourself to authority.  It doesn't say that it's impossible for a very rich person to enter heaven, it says that it's very hard to let go of their wealth if they are bent on loving their wealth and money.  Remember, it says that you can't serve two masters, and in the real world, this is true.  The Bible says, judge not, that you not be judged, to say that you shouldn't walk around condemning people.  It does, however, suggest that there needs to be authority in order to make decisions.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Then what kind of nation are

Quote:
Then what kind of nation are we?

 

You've taken all these quotes out of context. To address the first two, the Bible also says to submit yourself to authority. It doesn't say that it's impossible for a very rich person to enter heaven, it says that it's very hard to let go of their wealth if they are bent on loving their wealth and money. Remember, it says that you can't serve two masters, and in the real world, this is true. The Bible says, judge not, that you not be judged, to say that you shouldn't walk around condemning people. It does, however, suggest that there needs to be authority in order to make decisions.

Quote:
the Bible also says to submit yourself to authority

The bible is a comic book of hero worship and the only authority is the fictional head authority named god.

Yea, to God's authority and the first commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Which is in conflict with the First Amendment which says I can have another god, or no god at all.

The differance between the "authority" of the bible and the "authority" of the Constitution is that the bible's head character is a dictator who demands your obediance.

The "authority" we comply with under Constitutional law is done through advise and consent and has the ability to be flexable and change when needed. And when that "authority" abuses it's power we have recorse to hold that "authority" accountable when it makes mistakes.

Tell me, when was the last time your God said, "My bad" are you willing to hold him accountable? I would hope so since he says your life is in his hands. (Mind you that is an example of "lets pretend" for argument's sake).

So what kind of Nation are we? To far to many, we are a nation where non-Christians can be citizens as long as they dont run or compete for political office. Constitutionally however this is not true and I hope that OUR nation learns the facts so that it can expand its options.

What kind of nation should we be? A nation of individuals where "E-Pluribus Unum" is not excluded to "For Christian use only".

There is not one person here that is going to call the Constitution based on atheism. Everyone here knows that there were a wide veriety from Diesm, to Christianity, beliefs of the founders.

What we are saying is that the MAJORITY does not have the right to use goverment to claim that the Constitution and our governemnt institutions only get to be run by Christians. Otherwise we would not have a Jew AND a Muslim serving in our Congress.

Non-Christian citizens are allowed to apply to run for city council, Mayor, and even President. Certain offices exclude natrualized citizens, but anyone born here at a certain age can run for Senate or President and can be apointed to any office including Supreme Court Justice.

Again, when you run for office you still have to get enough votes. But if you do, no one can have you removed simply because you dont believe in Jesus or swear dont swear on a bible. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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That's a cool quote and

That's a cool quote and all, but I don't really feel like carrying it around with me on the off chance that some idiot will try and tell me that America is a Christian nation.

 So instead, what I'll do is this. The next time someone tells me that the U.S. is a Christian nation, or was founded by Christians, or on Christian ideals, I will simply respond as usual: by laughing heartily.


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Quote: So what kind of

Quote:

So what kind of Nation are we? To far to many, we are a nation where non-Christians can be citizens as long as they dont run or compete for political office. Constitutionally however this is not true and I hope that OUR nation learns the facts so that it can expand its options.

 

 

Somehow I don't think that Christians are opposed to a person of another religion coming into office, other than just voting against them.  We've elected plenty of non-religious people to office.  Why does it seem this way to atheists?  Because of Bush's long, drawn-out reign?  I mean, dang, we just had Bill Clinton, I don't think he was a Christian.  Obviously Christians are going to vote for Christians, and atheists are going to vote for atheists.  *in most cases*.  It's just how voting goes, you vote for the person whose beliefs most line up with yours.  I don't see Christians trying to keep people of other beliefs out of office, are there examples of this happening?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

So what kind of Nation are we? To far to many, we are a nation where non-Christians can be citizens as long as they dont run or compete for political office. Constitutionally however this is not true and I hope that OUR nation learns the facts so that it can expand its options.

 

Somehow I don't think that Christians are opposed to a person of another religion coming into office, other than just voting against them. We've elected plenty of non-religious people to office. Why does it seem this way to atheists? Because of Bush's long, drawn-out reign? I mean, dang, we just had Bill Clinton, I don't think he was a Christian. Obviously Christians are going to vote for Christians, and atheists are going to vote for atheists. *in most cases*. It's just how voting goes, you vote for the person whose beliefs most line up with yours. I don't see Christians trying to keep people of other beliefs out of office, are there examples of this happening?

Still missing the point which I have made time after time.

No one is suggeting anyone be forced to vote for someone they dont want to. I am talking about public attude and their lack of knowlege.

Right you do vote for the person who you have something in common with. BUT, the founders didnt want that "common" ground to be based on the issue of religion, "No Religious Test".

What they wanted for you to do when you voted is to stick to finding overlap on issues OTHER than religion.

It is possible, but most of society doesnt think so.

I demonstrate time after time in post after post that If I can do it, they can too. I'll do it again here too.

!. I have voted in every ellection since I was 18. All the people I voted for were Christians. If I am willing to look beyond that and vote on issues, they can too.

My issues are privacy rights, gun ownership(within reason) no stockpiling. I am anit-death penalty, for low taxes. I am for corperate responsibility and wish the ceo's would cut some of their profits and put it back into their employees care. I think life should be afordable to everyone.

I like the idea of charity, but I think just like everything else is worse taken care of in the hands of a burocrate. I believe that my goverment shouldnt interfere in my life.

I am an NFL FAN, I like everything from jazz to Metallica, to 80ds music. I like shows like A-Team, Charle's Angels and SVU.

I am quite sure there are plenty of Christians outside the issue of label that would agree with me or find common ground on some of these things.

It is a lie that Christians cant leave it at the door. When I vote, I vote for the person who stays out of my beliefs and out of my wallet and doesnt want pollitically correct laws. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Somehow I don't think that Christians are opposed to a person of another religion coming into office, other than just voting against them.  We've elected plenty of non-religious people to office.  Why does it seem this way to atheists?  Because of Bush's long, drawn-out reign?  I mean, dang, we just had Bill Clinton, I don't think he was a Christian.  Obviously Christians are going to vote for Christians, and atheists are going to vote for atheists.  *in most cases*.  It's just how voting goes, you vote for the person whose beliefs most line up with yours.  I don't see Christians trying to keep people of other beliefs out of office, are there examples of this happening?

I forget the actual percentage, but a large portion of the country would not vote for someone who was an atheist.

I don't care what religion a person is, I vote for them based on what they stand for.  I don't think religion should even be involved in politics, which is the whole issue to begin with.

I also believe that Bill Clinton publicly asked god for forgiveness for the Monica Lewisnky debacle.  I believe he was a Christian.

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Dave_G wrote: “Of all

Dave_G wrote:
“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiment in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy which has marked the present age would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination, so far that we should never again see their religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”-- George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, Oct. 20, 1792.

See the bold?
He wanted to end the religious differences between Christians so we could be united as one nation under God!
Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship.
I agree with Washington that we should end religion and Darwinism would be the first to go!

[/fundy advocacy]

I don't think you'll ever beat them in a quote war because they know how to twist popular words to new meaning.
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“It is impossible to

“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”-- George Washington


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Apotheon wrote: “It is

Apotheon wrote:
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”-- George Washington

 

Sources?

 

 

 


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This link claims it's a

This link claims it's a false quote:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/george_washington_quote_1600

I don't really have the time to read his farewell address right now.

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pariahjane wrote: This

pariahjane wrote:

This link claims it's a false quote:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/george_washington_quote_1600

I don't really have the time to read his farewell address right now.

 

According to that site he did say:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. "


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Quote: I forget the actual

Quote:

I forget the actual percentage, but a large portion of the country would not vote for someone who was an atheist.

I don't care what religion a person is, I vote for them based on what they stand for.  I don't think religion should even be involved in politics, which is the whole issue to begin with.

I also believe that Bill Clinton publicly asked god for forgiveness for the Monica Lewisnky debacle.  I believe he was a Christian.

Perhaps atheists don't stand for a Christian's values.  Everyone has the right to vote as they wish.  Unfortunately, religion and politics are hard to separate.  But yes, we should all vote for the person who values what we value, and stands for what we stand for.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

I forget the actual percentage, but a large portion of the country would not vote for someone who was an atheist.

I don't care what religion a person is, I vote for them based on what they stand for.  I don't think religion should even be involved in politics, which is the whole issue to begin with.

I also believe that Bill Clinton publicly asked god for forgiveness for the Monica Lewisnky debacle.  I believe he was a Christian.

Perhaps atheists don't stand for a Christian's values.  Everyone has the right to vote as they wish.  Unfortunately, religion and politics are hard to separate.  But yes, we should all vote for the person who values what we value, and stands for what we stand for.

Oh goody, here we go again, the atheists have no values, morals, ethics, etc. 

The problem with having religion and politics meshed is that people lose rights based on the beliefs of others.  Of course that's fine and dandy with those who are squashing the rights.  It's not fine and dandy with me.

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Part of the problem with

Part of the problem with this conversation is that if we lived as the founding fathers did I would be a slave owner and women would have no vote. It seems dishonest to me to say that our behavior should be that of the founding fathers unless you take the whole package. So if we should be Christians because the founding fathers were, then we should also oppress women and blacks as well.

 

I think it is safe to say that there was theistic influence in the foundations of the Republic, but there were other influences with just as much importance.  I think that the core ideal is that people should be at liberty to persue their own lives without oppression from the government. The founding fathers recognized the capacity of religion to foster repressiveness. The may have believed that god is real and that just laws are somehow connected to the divine, but they were wise enough to know that no man's apprehension of those laws was complete enough to allow a position of supremacy.


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Quote: Oh goody, here we

Quote:

Oh goody, here we go again, the atheists have no values, morals, ethics, etc. 

The problem with having religion and politics meshed is that people lose rights based on the beliefs of others.  Of course that's fine and dandy with those who are squashing the rights.  It's not fine and dandy with me.

Of course atheists have values, morals, ethics.  I never said they didn't.  I just said that an atheist's values/morals/ethics probably aren't the same as a Christian's values/morals/ethics.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Jedi Dan I apologize if I

Jedi Dan I apologize if I jumped the gun.  I thought you were going to start on the tiresome 'immoral atheist' argument.

I have to agree with Wavefreak.  I don't think anyone here would disagree that some or most of the founding fathers had a theistic background.  However, that doesn't make our country a 'Christian nation'.  We are still meant to be a secular government.

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Apotheon wrote: “It is

Apotheon wrote:
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”-- George Washington

How does that equate to Washinton wanting OUR laws ripped from the Bible.

Again, what makes you think it is more than his personal opinion? There is a big differance between someone's personal opinion and the Constitution. Please tell me where you find the word "Jesus" or "Christian" in the Constitution?

HIS God was the god of nature and he was a deist, not a Christian. 

He in no way wanted any law ripped out of the Bible. Just like the rest of the founders they all understood that your religion was up to you, not them. It was not something they wanted goverment playing favorites to.

Him saying that only amounts to his opinion which is a seperate issue of HOW the Constitution is to be followed. The Constitution was to be interpreted with reason, not rose colored dogma. 

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pariahjane wrote: This

pariahjane wrote:

This link claims it's a false quote:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/george_washington_quote_1600 

Anyone can claim anything they want. Where's the proof?

Even if the first sentence was false, which it isn't, the following sentences are sufficient to demonstrate the fact that he was a believer.

It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations (George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 343).You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention (George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 55).

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Apotheon wrote: pariahjane

Apotheon wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

This link claims it's a false quote:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/george_washington_quote_1600 

Anyone can claim anything they want. Where's the proof?

Even if the first sentence was false, which it isn't, the following sentences are sufficient to demonstrate the fact that he was a believer.

It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations (George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 343).You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention (George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 55).

Perhaps if you read it, you would see that is says the second sentence is false, not the first.

And no where did I say that the link I offered proves anything.  I even stated that I didn't have time to read the farwell address. 

At least I attached a source, unlike some other people. 

And as I've already said countless times on this thread, it doesn't matter whether Washington was a Christian, deist or buddhist.  The founding fathers intent was making our government secular and not Christian. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane wrote:

pariahjane wrote:
Apotheon wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

This link claims it's a false quote:

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/george_washington_quote_1600

Anyone can claim anything they want. Where's the proof?

Even if the first sentence was false, which it isn't, the following sentences are sufficient to demonstrate the fact that he was a believer.

It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations (George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 343).You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention (George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932, p. 55).

Perhaps if you read it, you would see that is says the second sentence is false, not the first.

And no where did I say that the link I offered proves anything. I even stated that I didn't have time to read the farwell address.

At least I attached a source, unlike some other people.

And as I've already said countless times on this thread, it doesn't matter whether Washington was a Christian, deist or buddhist. The founding fathers intent was making our government secular and not Christian.

Listen you godless Rosa Parks, it is your duty as a non-Christian citizen to take your place at the back of the political bus. You have the right to live, own a business and pay taxes, but as someone who does not worship Jesus, you must never expect to partisipate in our highest levels of government. YOU DONT KISS THE ASS OF JESUS, so do what I do and accept the trailer home on the back 40 of the Christian's estate.

AND WILL YOU PLEASE STOP QUOTING THE OATH OF OFFICE AND NO RELIGIOUS TEST AND TREATY OF TRIPOLY.

YOU are an ungratefull Aunt Tom(Uncle Tom) actually hoping that someday people will look at issues and not labels. How can you turn down second place? Just because you are a citizen doesnt mean you should ever expect to compete politically at thier level.

Just accept that Jesus wrote the Constitution, and all the Jews, Muslims,, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists born in America can all still have their lemonaid stand. JUST ACCEPT YOUR POLITICAL TOKEN STATUS AND SUBMIT TO JESUS!

You ungratfull so and so.........!

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I think that if Dave had

I think that if Dave had said "Next time some idiot says America was founded as a Christian nation ...", I'd have no issue with this post whatsoever.  However the title of the thread, as it stands is patently false.  I mean, a brief survey of religious affiliations of the fifty-five delegates to the Continental Congress which approved the Declaration of Independence breaks down like this:

28 Episcopalians, 7 Congregationalists, 3 Catholics, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists.  Three others professed Deism of some sort.  Additionally, at least 18 were Freemasons, whose tenets also aknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.  One (Benjamin Franklin) never professed any religious belief, but was among the Freemasons.  So 44 out of 55 (80%) delegates professed Christianity, 48 out of 55 (87%) professed theism, the beliefs of 7 (13%) aren't verifiable (including the mysterious Button Gwinnett of Georgia, whose signature on the Declaration is very nearly the only evidence of his existence).

I couldn't find statistics for the religious affiliation fo signers of the Constitution, but would suspect that the percentages would be very similar.

 

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Would you suggest then that

Would you suggest then that the US is a "white" nation because the majority of people here are white?

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 Ever wonder why   "In

 Ever wonder why

 

"In God We Trust"

 

is on our currency?

 

You atheists better stop now. Its been a lost cause from the beginning. Theism has been here since the dawn of civilization, and it will be here when you are dust. God exists, and He has always crushed the opposition.

 

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Apotheon wrote:

Apotheon wrote:

Ever wonder why

 

"In God We Trust"

 

is on our currency?


 

Congress passed the Coinage Act in 1864. That was 77 years after the Constitution was adopted, and I'm willing to bet none of the founding fathers were involved with the decision.

 

[edit] I posed the wrong date. it was 1864 not 1861.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1864


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And it was only on a few

And it was only on a few coins then - only added to all the money in the 1950's (under McCarthyism.)

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On Flag Day, June 14,

On Flag Day, June 14, 1954, Congress passed the legislation adding the phrase "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Don't go here next either....

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MattShizzle wrote: Would

MattShizzle wrote:
Would you suggest then that the US is a "white" nation because the majority of people here are white?

Indeed not.  Nor did I, to complete the analogy, ever suggest that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.  In fact, even if I did not state so outright, it is clearly implied in my post that I believe the opposite to be true, that the United States was founded as a nation where all religious beliefs, or non-beliefs would all be tolerated.

It is common knowledge, however, that belief informs our actions.  Therefore, it is not unreasonable to find, that since the majority of the founders of the nation were Christian, Christian mores, attitudes and beliefs were deeply ingrained in the fabric  of the documents establishing the United States.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote: It is

totus_tuus wrote:
It is common knowledge, however, that belief informs our actions.  Therefore, it is not unreasonable to find, that since the majority of the founders of the nation were Christian, Christian mores, attitudes and beliefs were deeply ingrained in the fabric  of the documents establishing the United States.

If majority rule applies, I guess slavery is another feather in your hat?

If the majority of our founders were Christian and had Christian morals, attitudes and beliefs, why would they create a secular nation? Unless there is something there in the context of the bible that teaches Christians to fear the bible itself. Which there isn't.

Since it takes a majority to decide we can assume that the majority were actually drawing there values from outside the context of the bible and had reason to fear it. Thus a secular nation.

What were they afraid of?

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Before addressing neptewn's

Before addressing neptewn's questions, I must first make a correction.  The breakdown of founding fathers by religious denomination is those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, not the Continental Congress which passed the Declaration of Independence.  I was in hurry when I posted, and inadvertenly flip flopped the information.  Sorry.

 

neptewn wrote:

If majority rule applies, I guess slavery is another feather in your hat?

First, show me anyplace wher I've advocated slavery.

Second, yes, majority rules, for better or for worse, is the way most representative governments and democracies operate.

Third.  Only fourteen of the 55 delegates to the convention had ever owned slaves, two of whom, George Washington (he of the quote that started this thread), and Benjamin Franklin (the nearest thing to an agnostic or atheist attending the Convention) freed theirs.  Neither 12 nor 14 is nearly a majority of 55.  Slavery survived the Convention as a hard fought compromise.  Southern states threatened to withhold ratification of the document if slavery was limited in any way.  If ratification was withheld by it would have caused the slow death of the United States under the Articles of Confederation.  It was the case of a a vocal minority imposing an injustice on the majority.

neptewn wrote:

If the majority of our founders were Christian and had Christian morals, attitudes and beliefs, why would they create a secular nation? Unless there is something there in the context of the bible that teaches Christians to fear the bible itself. Which there isn't.

Since it takes a majority to decide we can assume that the majority were actually drawing there values from outside the context of the bible and had reason to fear it. Thus a secular nation.

What were they afraid of?

I never claimed that the Bible was the only influence on the framers of the Constitution.  Again, you're putting words in my mouth.  The influence of other thinkers, including those of the Enlightenment are clearly in evidence in the ideas and wording of the document.

What were they afraid of?  Well let's see.  I don't think you'll disagree that a good many, please notice I didn't say majority, but a good many folks fled their native lands for America to escape religious persecution.  American experience with government came from the British tradition.  If we  briefly examine the relationship of the British government and  religion, perhaps we can determine what firghtened these guys.

 In the 1530's, Henry VIII established the Crown as the Supreme Head of the Church in England, and splitting with Roman Catholicism.  Catholics quickly became very unpopular with the government, to the point that Catholics were widely persecuted and executed for their religious beliefs (in fact, full political freedom was not restored to English Catholics until the 1830's).  In fact, the Church of England soon splintered into various factions, with the dominant faction persecuting the smaller ones (that'd be your Puritans, who were more Calvinistic then the main, or High Church folks) and restricting their political rights as well.  If you examine the denominational breakdown af attendees at the Constitutional Convention, you'll notice that, of those Christians not affiliated witht he Church of England, the majority were members of Calvinist sects. 

The founding fathers had witnessed firsthand the effects of a state religion on civil rights in England, and wished to avoid the same mess, in which case they succeeded admirably. 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote: First,

totus_tuus wrote:
First, show me anyplace wher I've advocated slavery.

You didn't and I apoligize If I offended you.

totus_tuus wrote:
Second, yes, majority rules, for better or for worse, is the way most representative governments and democracies operate.

If majority rule applies then shouldn't we assume the nation was founded by secularist?

Christians that indicate this nation is founded by Christians are creating somewhat of a misnomer since we aren't a theocracy? That type of statement holds about as much weight as saying the country is founded by Men or White's, all very true statements under a certain context but typically used as a method to lay the foundation for a subjective line of thinking.

We are a secular Government created during a democratic process, it's seems reasonable to conclude we are founded by Secularist.

This is not an attack on you or an indication that's what your motive are by any means. Please understand i'm just looking for an opinion to this line of thinking and this explains my criticality to any group trying to take credit for founding this nation, aside from secularist.

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

totus_tuus wrote:
Is that the same George Washington who added "So help me God" to his oath of office at his first inauguration?

Well, here's two versions of his speech.  I don't see any 'so help me god' in either of them.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/inaug/wash1.htm

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=11&page=transcript

Where is your reference to this?

It doesn't matter, by the way, whether Washington addresses god or not.  That still doesn't make it a Christian nation.  A person can believe in god and not be a Christian.  A person can reference nature as god, for example.

There are many other threads with regard to this, perhaps you should peruse them a bit.

My source for the "so help me God" thing is the Architect of the Capitol website at www.aoc.gov.

The title of this thread has nothing to do with the United States being a Christian Nation, the claim was that the United States was not established by Christians which I have demonstrated to be a false statement.

By the way, your links are to George Washington's First Inaugural Address, not to anyhting concerned with the oath of office.

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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Somehow I don't think that Christians are opposed to a person of another religion coming into office, other than just voting against them.  We've elected plenty of non-religious people to office.  Why does it seem this way to atheists?  Because of Bush's long, drawn-out reign?  I mean, dang, we just had Bill Clinton, I don't think he was a Christian.  Obviously Christians are going to vote for Christians, and atheists are going to vote for atheists.  *in most cases*.  It's just how voting goes, you vote for the person whose beliefs most line up with yours.  I don't see Christians trying to keep people of other beliefs out of office, are there examples of this happening?

 

Bill Clinton was far worse than George Bush when it came to placating the christian right. Clinton passed the religious freedom restoration act which allowed people to challenge any state or federal law based on religious grounds even statutes against child endangerment and infanticide. Part of it was later found to be unconstitutional by the supreme court. Just read god vs the gavel by Marci Hamilton.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act

 

 He also signed the religious land use protection act which is why a church can build a school and a big ass parking lot in a residential neighborhood against zoning restrictions that stop anybody else from doing that shit, and if you try to sue them then you will lose and you will have to pay their legal fees.

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neptewn wrote: You didn't

neptewn wrote:
You didn't and I apoligize If I offended you.

No problem.  No offense.  It may have just been my thin skin.  In retrospect, I kinda see the point you were making there, and think I addressed it.

neptewn wrote:

Christians that indicate this nation is founded by Christians are creating somewhat of a misnomer since we aren't a theocracy? That type of statement holds about as much weight as saying the country is founded by Men or White's, all very true statements under a certain context but typically used as a method to lay the foundation for a subjective line of thinking.

We are a secular Government created during a democratic process, it's seems reasonable to conclude we are founded by Secularist. 

I think we're confusing terms here.  If we speak of ideology of government, we speak in terms of secularists versus theocrats.  If we speak of individual religious beliefs, we talk about denominations.  Hence I am a Catholic secularist, that is a member of the Catholic faith who thinks that church and state should be separate.  The fact that I believe Church and State should be separate does not change my religious view.  I remain a Catholic.

  

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


Brian37
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Apotheon wrote: Ever

Apotheon wrote:

Ever wonder why

 

"In God We Trust"

 

is on our currency?

 

You atheists better stop now. Its been a lost cause from the beginning. Theism has been here since the dawn of civilization, and it will be here when you are dust. God exists, and He has always crushed the opposition.

 

Do you have any better argument than "My daddy is going to beat you up"?

So I guess it is ok in Iran and Saudi Arabia for their dad to dominate government? 

America has religious people of all labels as citizens. For our pluralism to be maintained our goverment must remain neutral on the issue of religion and stay out of that issue.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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wavefreak
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Apotheon wrote: Ever

Apotheon wrote:

Ever wonder why

 

"In God We Trust"

 

is on our currency?

 

You atheists better stop now. Its been a lost cause from the beginning. Theism has been here since the dawn of civilization, and it will be here when you are dust. God exists, and He has always crushed the opposition.

 

 

So why does god allow atheists to exist? Maybe because believers refuse to see the obvious and s(he) is using atheists to make them think clearly about some of their beliefs? 


Apotheon
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 Some of the founding

 Some of the founding fathers were Christians. Some were deists and others were Masons. But as far as I know, none were atheists. If you want to ask me if this is a Christian nation? I would have to say Absolutely not. Russia was the last Christian nation. Zar Nicholas II was the last Christian emperer ever. He was murdered with his whole family in a basement by the soviets. A Christian nation must have a Christian emperer. A Christian president doesn't count. Bush is not a Christian anyway. He pretends to be but he's not. America is pluralistic. We allow anything. We are not a Christian nation. Christianity is here, but that doesn't make us a Christian nation. Anything goes in America.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Saying Bush isn't a

Saying Bush isn't a Christian is another instance of the NO True Scotsman Fallacy.