Why do Christians disobey Jesus?

MattShizzle
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Why do Christians disobey Jesus?

I just wonder. Jesus often said that you shouldn't make a big deal out of praying in front of others, and his harshest criticisms were for the Pharisees who made a big deal of praying in public. So why do most Christians want the publicly posted 10 commandments, public prayer, etc.? Isn't this being like the Pharisees and disobeying Jesus? Do they think hell will be fun?

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A fair question.  First,

A fair question.  First, the relevant quote from Matthew 6:5-6,

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The underlying point is to be wary of self-gratification and self-glorification.  "They have received their reward in full" likely refers to the praise other people give them.  If we take this alongside the "greatest commandment" to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength" the error should be clear.  The "hypocrites" were seeming to glorify God while truly glorifying themselves.

As to a public display of the 10 Commandments or similar things, these do not glorify any one person but rather draw attention (and hopefully glory) to God.  I personally do not agree with their attachment to government buildings, as I think it's un-Biblical.  I can respect their place as historic features pointing to the founding of America, so long as that is the only intent.

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because reinterpretation of

because reinterpretation of "the word of god" is rampant in Christianity, especially if, in their minds, fends off criticism. things such as not knowing how long "god's days" were, dinosaurs on the ark, the original punishment for breaking one of the ten commandments was death but of course that's been revised, etc. god was supposedly the author of the greatest story of all time, but apparently christians believe he needed an editor.

But when a literal interpretation suits their oppressive intent, they don’t hesitate for a second.

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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You really like begging the

You really like begging the question, don't you?  I suspect you don't want a real answer, but rather enjoy pointing out the failings of Christians.

 

What really disturbs me is not that Christians and Atheists disagree, buit that there is a segment of each that is really out for blood. They enjoy the fight more than finding truth. 

 

 


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I do like pointing out that

I do like pointing out that Christians don't follow their own bullshit religion, but that's hardly begging the question.

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wavefreak wrote:You

Begging the question would be walking up to a RANDOM Christian and asking "so, why don't you obey Jesus?".


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Interpretation of the Word

Interpretation of the Word is Biblically mandated, actually.  It's in I Corinthians, I believe.  Jesus also makes mention of the spirit of the law over the letter.  I'll grant there are a lot of loose interpretations but this is a human failing, not a Christian-specific one.

I don't think anyone's begged any questions in the philosophical sense, either.

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MattShizzle wrote: I just

MattShizzle wrote:
I just wonder. Jesus often said that you shouldn't make a big deal out of praying in front of others, and his harshest criticisms were for the Pharisees who made a big deal of praying in public. So why do most Christians want the publicly posted 10 commandments, public prayer, etc.? Isn't this being like the Pharisees and disobeying Jesus? Do they think hell will be fun?

Because who wants to obey a hippy? haha..eh...

"I, on the other hand, do not feel it necessary to construct a lofty meaning for myself. I prefer the style of the butterfly myself. I will eat what I want, flit about aimlessly, and enjoy the sunshine. Then, I will die. " - Nero, RRS Forum User


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Eight Foot Manchild

Eight Foot Manchild wrote:
Begging the question would be walking up to a RANDOM Christian and asking "so, why don't you obey Jesus?".

 

I've been posting here for less than a month and have noticed that for the most part Christians are quickly weeded out. They come, post something and are blown away in withering cross fire.  It seems to me that pointing out the failings of Christians on this corner of the internet is preaching to the choir. I find it interesting that often once you peel off the "rational" layer from an atheist you see the same thing you find when you peel off the "Christian" layer - a rather primal desire to be the one calling the shots.


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i have noticed the irony

i have noticed the irony that christians often "sin" more than atheists


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YelloweyEyes wrote: i have

YelloweyEyes wrote:
i have noticed the irony that christians often "sin" more than atheists

You've noticed sin, huh?  And you're an atheist? Paint me incredulous. Smiling

Seriously though, Christians and atheists sin just as much as either other.

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MattShizzle wrote: I just

MattShizzle wrote:
I just wonder. Jesus often said that you shouldn't make a big deal out of praying in front of others, and his harshest criticisms were for the Pharisees who made a big deal of praying in public. So why do most Christians want the publicly posted 10 commandments, public prayer, etc.? Isn't this being like the Pharisees and disobeying Jesus? Do they think hell will be fun?

 

That is such an awesome point man!

 

I don't know why we post the ten commandments up like that. It really is a slap in the face to how holy they are. Back in the ancient days, the people of God NEVER displayed the commandments because it was a defilement to them. The first people to display the commandments were the pagan philistiens. They put the commandments right up there with there pagan gods and America does the same thing. They have the commandments on some capitol building in Washington and right above them is a carving of the Roman goddess, Diana. So you have brought up a VERY excellent point. 

 

To give an answer to your question, I think we do it try and say to the world "look, we are a christian nation" even though we disobery every commandment of God. It's just a lame thing we do to try and cover up how wicked and far from God our nation really is.

 

I don't mean any disrespect... but it's sad that an athiest understands this and many Christians don't. 


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wavefreak wrote: Eight

wavefreak wrote:

Eight Foot Manchild wrote:
Begging the question would be walking up to a RANDOM Christian and asking "so, why don't you obey Jesus?".

 

I've been posting here for less than a month and have noticed that for the most part Christians are quickly weeded out. They come, post something and are blown away in withering cross fire. It seems to me that pointing out the failings of Christians on this corner of the internet is preaching to the choir. I find it interesting that often once you peel off the "rational" layer from an atheist you see the same thing you find when you peel off the "Christian" layer - a rather primal desire to be the one calling the shots.

 

This guy does have a point.  It seems that you will only agree with Christians if they agree with you.  I'm not meaning to start an argument... just sayin' 


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tree-sitterIt seems that

tree-sitter
It seems that you will only agree with Christians if they agree with you.

Gee someone who only agrees with people who have the same opinion as them.... um hold on isn't that the definition of agree.

Now you've gone and made me sarcastic

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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JHenson

JHenson wrote:

YelloweyEyes wrote:
i have noticed the irony that christians often "sin" more than atheists

You've noticed sin, huh? And you're an atheist? Paint me incredulous. Smiling

Seriously though, Christians and atheists sin just as much as either other.

Many of us know how Christians define sin (they like to wave it in people's faces)

Should we just not notice when their actions don't match what they say they believe? 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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JHenson wrote: A fair

JHenson wrote:

A fair question. First, the relevant quote from Matthew 6:5-6,

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The underlying point is to be wary of self-gratification and self-glorification. "They have received their reward in full" likely refers to the praise other people give them. If we take this alongside the "greatest commandment" to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength" the error should be clear. The "hypocrites" were seeming to glorify God while truly glorifying themselves.

As to a public display of the 10 Commandments or similar things, these do not glorify any one person but rather draw attention (and hopefully glory) to God. I personally do not agree with their attachment to government buildings, as I think it's un-Biblical. I can respect their place as historic features pointing to the founding of America, so long as that is the only intent.

Glad you agree. But unfortunatly, quite often when I run into Christians who say this, they are not willing to apply it to all aspects of goverment, such as oaths, pledges or national mottos.

If you are a Palistinian Christian, do you like looking at a national flag with a Quran quote on it? If you are a Isreali Muslim do you like looking at the Star Of David on the flag?

People often pass it off as merely tradition because those who do are in the majority most likely.

If it makes no sense that you say that your bible doesnt condone goverment displays of your religion, shouldnt you be consistant with that attitude?

Make no mistake about it. The founders wanted freedom of religion. Unfortunatly Christians have taken that as the right to monopolize what it means to be an American and assumed the Constitution is solely intitled to them when the blarring ommision of the word "Christian" or "Jesus" is nowhere to be found in our goverment's first set of LAWS.

Then the theist accuses the atheist of wanting to force the silence of religion when all we are pointing out is TIME PLACE AND CONTEXT!

You dont play ice hockey on an NFL feild and you dont play tennis in an ice rink. The First Amendment is not a right for a Christian monopoly on power. It is an anti-trust law to prevent monopolies on political and religous power.

Unfortunatly this has been ignored throughout the history of this country dispite the clear warnings of the founders to keep the WALL there.

Here is my point. There are 360,000 houses of worship of every religion and ever sect you can think of on just about every street corner in this country. You look at the Saturday paper, or phone book, you turn on the TV Sunday morning, you go to Barns and Noble, you attend a Megga Church gathering at a privately owned stadium. You wear the cross and put a bumper sticker on your car.You put up a website devoted to your belief.

So why is that not good enough by itself? If goverment is ours then we need to keep it neutral. Not atheistic, not sectarian, not favoring the godless over believers, merely without favoritism either way.

"God" in our pledge and on our money is NOT reflective of the pluralism like some would have you believe. If any Jew or Muslim citizen thinks it represents them, they are blindly not only fooling themselves, but shooting themselves in the foot.

It is a deep indoctrination by the Christian needless fear of the so called |"godless" commies, that caused the perminant incertain of that divisive word onto goverment institutions and property.

It was not there to reflect "E-Pluribus Unum", but "Hey, we dont mind you living here, but just remember only Christians drive the bus and dont bitch", but at the same time they tax you and ask you to vote for Christians only even though they call you fellow citizen.

Where is your oportuntity to compete in that? A Jew, or Hindu or Buddhist citizen CAN be appointed to the Supreme Court via "No Religious Test|" as per LAW by U.S. Constitution.

So when atheists point this out, we are not just pointing this out to Christians for the sole benifit of atheists. We are  pointing out the Constitutional rights of all Americans born here as to their right to run and compete politically.

Certainly no one is obligated to vote for someone they dont want to. But we do have an obligation to defend the constitution. That means if we call someone neighbor, they are in good standing, and we have common ground with them, then their religious label should not be taken into consideration.

Christain fundies especially like to paint a bleek facist picture of atheists not understanding that it is quite the oposite. If we value our right to run and compete politically, then we must value their rights too.

It is because the founders KNEW far too well what religion and sectarianism did to the colonies, much the same as the Sunni's and Shietes today. It is because they valued the mind of the individual so much, that they left the mention of a deity out of our first set of laws.

What kills me the most is that these Christian revisionists do not see the divisiveness and secterain infighting that will get worse if they keep insisting on slapping the word Jesus on the American flag. It will fuck up their rights as much as anyone they are trying to compete with. It is better for all, the Jew, the Muslim and atheist to use goverment for what it was intended for, COMMON GROUND, not common religion.

Facism is the arrogance of one (state,party,class, or religion or person) who thinks they are intitled to say, "Do it my way without question.'

So for theists to bring up the Hitler fallacy all they need do is look at their own facism in their own history. Our goal is not to spark up ovens or barbaque kittens or end religion by goverment force. 

I would never follow any atheist seeking to silence dissent through goverment anymore than a Christian should support an abortion bomber or any more than a Muslim has the right to slam planes into buildings. 

Facism is facism by any name, wiether it is the pollitically correct idiots who demand the end of "being offended" on the one hand, or the right wing nut jobs who think Jesus wrote our Constitution, and not humans.

Dont worship me, dont worship anyone, especially those who dont like questions.  

 

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[quote=tree-sitter:

tree-sitter: wrote:
To give an answer to your question, I think we do it try and say to the world "look, we are a christian nation
You sure 'bout that? US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797 Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


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dassercha

dassercha wrote:
tree-sitter: To give an answer to your question, I think we do it try and say to the world "look, we are a christian nation [/quote wrote:
You sure 'bout that? US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797 Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

You got it right. Christians like quoting chichis which have nothing to do with Constitutional LAW and a treaty is a LAW based on the Constitution.

The right to self determination WAS NOT intended by the founders as a "collective" determination, but the rights of the individual.

"Christian Nation" only refures to a history of majority. IT IS NOT A RIGHT TO MONOPOLIZE POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS POWER, which is why we have in the less quoted part of the First Amendment, "to petition the goverment for a redress of greivance". NOT, the right for Christians only to do that.

It is also falsely assumed by proxy of popular media that oaths taken by public officials to say, "So help me God". If these morons would actually look up the oath of office they would not see that in the Constitution. IT IS VOLUNTARY, NOT MANDITORY!

And "No Religious Test" is also written in the Constitution. I wonder if the people advocating "God" in the pledge and on the money would put a poster up in every classroom next to "In God We Trust" and next to "Under God" would put "No Religious Test" and give that equal font, poster size and equal time?

Christian revisionists dont want that because that would actually give the citizen more choices other than Christian left and Christian right.

Christians, NOT ALL, but most, just like any other form of theism dont seek equality, but dominance.

I think anyone who values their rights as they should should not put up with any Alpha Male attitude by any party or any religion anywhere. That is why the right to dissent and advise and consent are written into the Constitution.The majority guides, but cannot dictate and the minority has the right to object when a majority trys to dictate.

These morons who complain we want to use goverment to take their bibles from them fail to see that they are paving the road to a future that we already see in the Middle East now.

Valueing the mind of the indivudal should be important to everyone. I am an atheist. I might be tollerated in some Islamic countries more than others, but would still lack any semblance of a shot at political power just as Jews and Christians would in those same countries.

My advice to Christians is simple. Stop accusing "secularists" of being demonic facists who want to become Hitler. That is pure bullshit plain and simple.

There are pleanty of people calling themselves Christian who agree with atheists that goverment and religion should be seperate in order to maintain the rights of BOTH the Christian and atheist.

Goverment neutrality benifits everyone. Christians do not own a monopoly on the Constitution. If they would not want to live under laws based on Islam, and neither would I. Then they need to take that same logic and apply it to OUR goverment.

A history of being a majority is not a right to monopolize power. If the free market of ideas is to exist then more choices increase the chance of making better choices. Mosts atheists I know are not afraid of compitition, but unfortunatly, most theists I know are.

Is your Allah or Yahwey or Jesus that pathetic(mind you, this is not aimed at all believers, just the insecure ones) that that claimed deity needs you to gang tag goverment property? You are that insecure that a debate over it's existance cant be done outside a goverment building?

How insecure is this deity that it needs or wants mere mortals to errect goverment issued icons in it's name?

Benjiman Franklen(paraphrazing) "I suspect any religion needing goverment support is not a good one". How many here would want to live in Islamic run Iran? Not me.

So why is it people cant leave it at the door. That is not saying go away. It merely is a recognition that all citizens have things that are theirs(non-govermental) mine(non-govermental) OURS(GOVERMENT).

"Divine intitlement" is the worst way to run goverment. If it stands to reason most repubicans and democrats bitch about the waste of money on both sides then why would you put such a personal issue such as religion into the hands of anyone who may not agree with your position? Shouldnt something that personal be funded and fueled outside goverment institutions?

All citizens have a right to exist, but that is not intitlement to monopolies.

If "God" were such a unifying word why does humanity demonstrate the oposite? Why, because it is not a unifying word outside the club. The founders saw this and realized that if religion were to be protected and free then with it comes the responsibility of standing on your own without their help.

Freedom of religion is not an intitlement or divine right. It is an understanding that others may not share the same diety you do.

"Christian Nation" is a result of chichi propaganda and is nothing but self centerdness based on the collective narrissism that only Christians can drive the bus(dispite the oposite writen in the Constitution.

There is no law in the Constitution stopping someone for voting for a Christian, but there is also no law stopping a non-Christian from running for President or sitting on the Supreme Court. THIS IS WHAT THE "CHRISTIAN NATION" people dont want you to know. They fear compitition that is why they dont mention "No Religious Test". That is why they fail to say, "So help me God" is voluntary, not manditory.

This is what has consistantly kept non-Christian citizens out of any significant power in this country. Because it is not generaly known, and when known, denied by far to many, that there is no requirement to swear to Jesus or any god for that matter.

I am so glad that the founders, and not the neo-theocrats of today, wrote our Constitution.

TO ALL NON-CHRISTIAN AMERICAN CITIZENS READING THIS, AND NOT JUST ATHEISTS........Start competing and see how quickly many Christians NOT ALL, but many, will turn on you and use pathetic back of the bus slogans like, "Christian Nation".

They take your money and happly call you neighbor and will be your freind untill you say, "Hey, I wanna be president someday".

Stop putting up with this crap! If you are born here or naturalized and in good legal standing, then it is the responsibility of your fellow citizen to give you the same consideration they expect from you.

It is not about forcing politicall correctness. It is not about saying "Never vote for Christians". IT IS ABOUT saying, "If your willing to call someone citizen, then you should be willing to consider them for our highest offices".

Boo hoo, people are starting to recognize that there is more than one flavor in town. Boo hoo, people are starting to see that one size does not fit all.

If it scares the Muslims in Iran to think that non-Muslims compete elsewhere in the world, why should the bigoted Christians in America be any less scared.

They base it on fear of losing power and they are no different than Islamic countries that fear non-Muslims in their countries.

No Christian has to fear me as long as they dont rip our laws out of their holy books. I'd rather leave it up to debate outside goverment over a beer and a football game.

So forgive me if I dont buy this victim bullshit on Christians part. I'll vote for anyone who stays out of my wallet and off my body, doesnt tell me who I have to like, and if that person calls themselves Christian, so be it.

BOO HOO, people are competing with my religion and I dont like the challenge of my monopoly! BOO FRIGGEN HOO!

If your religion is so damned good, why does it need goverment to prop it up? Im sure Iran's Islamic goverment is the greatest thing since sliced bread too.

So why dont you do me a favor. Stop using our goverment to play favorites to Christianity and I wont stick and atom symbol or a picture of Madolyn O'Hair on the flag either? Fair enough?

I like the red white and blue. But it belongs to us, not solely me, or solely you!

Cry me a river if I dont have any sympathy for any road that leads to theocracy.

FREEDOM, IT'S NOT JUST FOR CHRISTIANS ANY MORE!

 

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JHenson

JHenson wrote:

Interpretation of the Word is Biblically mandated, actually. It's in I Corinthians, I believe. Jesus also makes mention of the spirit of the law over the letter. I'll grant there are a lot of loose interpretations but this is a human failing, not a Christian-specific one.

If the bible is to be an absolute authority on morality, it cannot be open to any interpretation. If it were, by what means would we interpret it?

We could not use the bible, as it is open to interpretation.

If we are to use our own judgment, that means that humans have a sense of morality independent of the bible, and hence it is no longer an absolute athority.

Any other non-biblical source would also invalidate its absolute authority


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jcgadfly wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Should we just not notice when their actions don't match what they say they believe?

I was mostly teasing at the semantics. You are well within your rights and reason to call a spade a spade, so to speak. Hypocricy would be high on a list for probable absolute amoral practices. If one were to assert absolute morality, of course.

Brian37 wrote:
Glad you agree. But unfortunatly, quite often when I run into Christians who say this, they are not willing to apply it to all aspects of goverment, such as oaths, pledges or national mottos.

I wouldn't like to see Christianity as part of any political doctrine, explicit or otherwise, and I'm a Christian. No need for long-winded rants. Smiling

lee13 wrote:
If the bible is to be an absolute authority on morality, it cannot be open to any interpretation. If it were, by what means would we interpret it?

Jeremiah 31:33: "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Romans 2:14-16: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

The Bible is the Word of God, but the Law of God is on our conscience. It always has been, but God knew we were incapable of following it, which is why the "Law of Moses" was given. It was less than what God truly demanded, but given as an opportunity to show good faith. When Israel couldn't even meet that he offered a new covenant, one based on spirit instead of law.

Please bear in mind though, the Bible makes clear that while people are capable of good actions towards one another, no one is capable of seeking God, which is the primary command. Therefore, everyone is a sinner - Christian and non-Christian alike. I'm missing my reference off-hand, but Paul said, "No one is righteous, not even one." It's a common misunderstanding - usually because of bad teaching/theology - so I always try to clear it up when I can.

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JHenson wrote: I wouldn't

JHenson wrote:
I wouldn't like to see Christianity as part of any political doctrine, explicit or otherwise, and I'm a Christian. No need for long-winded rants. Smiling

Again, glad to hear you say that. But lets put that to the test.

Should the word "God" be in the pledge or on our money? Yes or no? 

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Quote: Providence has given

Quote:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

John Jay (#3 founding father of USA, 1st Supreme Court Chief Justice, Ambassador to France.)

Unless you want to pick and choose from what he said.... 

 

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God should not be injected

God should not be injected into our money, our pledges, our politics, our judicial system, or any other social arena outside of church, home, and daily life. What I will also say is that a person should likewise not be ruled by their government, but by God. I hope we can agree at least that governments are poor leaders of people. Smiling

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wavefreak wrote:

wavefreak wrote:

Eight Foot Manchild wrote:
Begging the question would be walking up to a RANDOM Christian and asking "so, why don't you obey Jesus?".

I find it interesting that often once you peel off the "rational" layer from an atheist you see the same thing you find when you peel off the "Christian" layer - a rather primal desire to be the one calling the shots.

A very insightful and interesting perspective. Cause at the center of every human is an ego.


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MattShizzle wrote: I do

MattShizzle wrote:
I do like pointing out that Christians don't follow their own bullshit religion...

I'm curious, why do you like it and what do you like about it?

-thanks


lgnsttefrst
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djneibarger wrote:

djneibarger wrote:

"god was supposedly the author of the greatest story of all time, but apparently christians believe he needed an editor."

I may be speaking to broadly but in my understanding, Christians believe that the Bible was in fact penned by men, who were "divinely inspired" As seen in the link below, there is some differing opinions on exactly how much inspiration was involved.

http://www.theopedia.com/Inspiration_of_the_Bible 

Id also like to say that I think your point would be more well received if it were without sarcasm and so much righteous indignation.

[MOD EDIT - fixed link] 


ajay333
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MOD Edit: Post

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