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An Honest Question for Theists.
Posted on: May 17, 2007 - 10:47am
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An Honest Question for Theists.
Just bear with me, I'm trying something new here.
Answer the following questions.
Okay, lets say that for whatever reason, you begin to have doubts about your faith. Does the idea that there is no God frighten you?
Why does it frighten you?
OR
Why does it NOT frighten you?
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The problem with your question is that is asks about feelings. I can answer it, but I hope it doesn't turn into an argument about the logic of those feelings. It is simply what I feel.
The idea that there is no god makes me feel profoundly alone.
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Trying to point out 'illogical' feelings is not the point of this exercise.
Do not fret.
I'm a wee bit gun shy. I'm never sure what to expect around here.
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As a theist, I've had doubts. But I think this is perfectly normal. If we didn't question our faith sometimes, we wouldn't be human. If I thought God didn't exist I'd be angry, depressed, and I'd wonder what the point to all of this is. Somehow I think I'm falling right into a trap.....hmmmmm
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
Don't be afraid little theist.
I doubt the conclusion I will be able to draw is what you expected or half as bad as you feared.
But FIRST, I need more theists.
Can't draw a conclusion without a ton of answers, now can you?
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
Does the idea that there IS a God frighten YOU? Do you have a fear of being judged? A fear of ultimate responsibility?
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis
Please make your own thread if you'd like to discuss this and I will be happy to answer.
I want to keep this thread clear besides the answering of the questions.
Thanks.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
The thought of absence of God does not necessarily frighten me. It does make me sad. It makes me feel alone. It makes me wonder what the point is. It makes me want something more.
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
I'd think that a message board devoted to Atheists wouldn't exactly be the place to find theists, but that's just my opinion.
ttdm.blogspot.com
I've posed the same question on 3 large Christian boards.
But I like my RRS theists, so I'm asking here as well.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
You don't have to be scared. It's really quite pleasant.
awww... we like you too...
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
I think this is an interesting question.
Maragon, would you like me to move this thread to Kill 'Em With Kindness Forum so maybe the theists won't be so gun shy?
If so, please PM me in case I don't get back to check this specific thread.
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You are making a point...but what about those who believe there isn't one...Are they always alone? One of my best friends is atheist, and I don't ever see her lonely, or depressed. (Unless she's tired)
My point is, you should consider other posibilities and look at the positives, not the negatives. Cause if there was absolute proof that there is no god then everyone would know and all the fighting would be over. But if there was absolute proof that he does exist, then all the fighting would be over.....
So in a nutshell. Just consider the posibility, without the feeling of loneliness. I'm considering it, and don't feel lonely.
And re-reading what I had said.... I'm not sure what my point was...
This thread has been moved to the Kill 'Em With Kindness Forum in hopes that theists will feel more comfortable replying in a heavily moderated setting.
Remember folks, you might have come in through the old forum where there is a link that brings you here. But please remember:
THIS IS NOW IN THE KILL 'EM WITH KINDNESS FORUM
No insults. No name-calling. No swearing.
Please be on your best behavior!
Thanks.
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Personally, the idea of there not being a God doesn't frighten me. It doesn't frighten me because there would pressumably not be an eternal unknown to be concerned about. The only thing to occupy my mind would be the life we live here, assuming that it is all we ever get. So I would just try and live my life to the fullest and make a lasting impact for the betterment of humanity. Specifically, enrich the youth by teaching them to think, question, and why they should learn as much as they can.
As a sidenote, I find that "having doubts" about your faith is quite natural among theists. Little rough patches you could say, that test your beliefs and the products of them. I hear a lot of honest God believers voice similar experiences of doubt. Doubt in my mind is a time for my faith to truly be tested. Granted, I don't welcome doubt, but when it shows up I don't crumble and lose my grip. It is a time for me to reflect on my life with faith in comparison to what my life would be (and has been) without faith. The excerise of overcoming doubt is something that I would never want to go away. It constantly reminds me that I truly am feeble and that I need help that goes beyond my capabilities.
Hope you enjoy my honest remarks and I hope that they give you a little different insight into a theist's mind than perhaps your used to.
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
LOL , your point is sweet and thoughtful I think, Hagane, just that point of this thread seems to be looking at the negative side anyway, so we, kind of, have to think negative to answer.
Like other answerers the thing I find that bothers me about the idea that there is no God is the philosophy that follows from it. If there's anything that scares me, it's the notion of living by a pure materialist philosophy, I'd feel so capitulated and bound by the idea that humanity already knows everything and worse still actually have it right. ick for me.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
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But the thing is we don't know everything, that is why we have science, to attempt to know more. Theists may think they know everything, they have God there to explain away anything that can't actually be known yet. I have no problem with the fact there are things we don't know. What we think is that we should endeavour to know the things we don't know, it will lead to a fuller humanity.
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But if that is the thing then isn't the most rational you can be agnostic? anything less accepting of the possibility that among the things we don't know is the true nature of an existent God must be based on the assumption that there is fundamentally nothing truly unknown to man with emphasis on the terms of spirit, soul or God. So to decide upon the non-existence of God is to capitulate ones choice in the matter to manifest knowledge, even though it is, at best, an incomplete set.
While there is something to be decided about the completeness of our knowledge there is no reason to assume any conclusiveness of that knowledge, that would include the notion of a spiritual reality and a creator of man residing within it. It is not known to us in so many words, fair enough, but how is it rational to say that what we don't know with limited knowledge simply is not and call that conclusive, then go on to say it's an only exception, other unknowns are fine, just not that one?
There are different kinds of theists, there are diferent kinds of atheists, there are different kinds of agnostics. Labels are only so useful and they fail beyond that. To some theists it is rational to intuit God as an infinity point, an ultimate unknown. Between this knowledge and the conclusive knowledge of God's existence there must be knowledge which is real to be discovered. Just as between an nth-order Ackermann number and infinity there are more numbers, and moreover just as there are nth-order ackermann numbers of grains of sands on earths beaches, there is knowledge on earth that may provide a model for what is in that gap between us and conclusive knowledge of God. We don't have conclusive knowledge of God but we do have a world where such orders of magnitude appear to be (and in some cases claim to be) demonstrated. So what do you do if you want to estimate a model for a number of large magnitude? You take the physically available example of that magnitude and model it with thought. Theism in the same vein makes just as much sense, right? Even if it does get you eventually to a real conclusion that God does not exist, it still remains that you did not have one beforehand.
If we have that conclusion now, as so many here appear to be claiming, then the preceeding assumption must be that our knowledge esp. in regard to the existence of a spiritual atemporality, is complete. So what is left but to capitulate to that insistence? To adopt materialist philosophy as absolute truth regardless of your personal distaste for such a notion? And I am saying that doing so is equal to having a problem with the fact that there are things we don't know, it effectively reduces things we do not know to things we can't know and I see that as a problem, it scares me much more that millions of years of evolution could simply stall in the middle of the road than that there might not be a God at the end of it.
I guess to begin with I should have said rather that it scares me to think that man actually knows everything there is to know about measuring what can and can not be known, material realism. I actually hope not, so essentially what I am saying is that yes, doubting God frightens me, I recoil that the alternative is to subjugate reason to a physicalistic monist doctrine of reality.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
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I'm not really sure how to properly answer the opening question.
As a (sort of) pagan, my God most certainly exists in the physical realm. I can see It, touch It, and taste It. If someone asked, I could pick my God up and hand It to them. So there aren't really any doubts for me to have about my God existing.
I'm comfortable in a world without any god. I have no fear of that or in ceasing to exist. I expect the latter, though for my belief in resurrection I expect it to be remedied. The notion that I'd die and never live again doesn't frighten me.
When, for some reason, I stop to question god and my beliefs, I turn to memory. I then find it impossible to be an atheist, I can only question my understanding.
Mike Gravel for president!
Since I have no doubts about there being a God, I'm not sure how I would feel if I did have doubts about there being a God.
Nontheistic answer here, so not sure if this helps, but when I was moving from a sort-of-theism to plain disbelief, I felt a little cheated.
I wanted eternal life, and was sad that the wonderful things that humanity would accomplish in the future would always be a closed book to me. I never cared a fig for heaven, it was humanity's future that I felt sad to be missing out on.
I recently started to respond to that sadness by asking myself whether I was sad not to exist before I was first conscious: clearly, I was not. So I'm not afraid of death.
But I am still sad to miss out the cool stuff, and would happily live forever if someone could find a way.
That's the best I can remember, anyway.
T="theists who's posts are fun-to-read, truth-seeking and insightful". Your own T will be different, but Tdewi includes { Avecrien, Cory T, crocaduck, JHenson, jread, wavefreak }
I had some doubts long ago about the Church I belonged to. But I have never once in my entire life ever doubted God's existence. In fact, my family has a cassette of me singing praises to God when I was 2 years old. I always knew God existed. I feel so sorry for atheists who live in such a pointless and meaningless universe.
Watch Richard Dawkins make a fool of himself on television:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWjZA3IH4c
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
*Reminder* You are in the "Kill 'em with Kindness" forum and the rules are more strict regarding insults and snide remarks.
Please review the RULES for this forum.
I would gather that "kill em with kindness" is referring to members of the thread, not Richard Dawkins. And I do feel sorry for atheists. I never said I hated them.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
We are not going to bog down Maragon's original topic, so this will be the last post regarding this.
Calling atheists lives pointless is an insult to many members, and that was what I was referring to as an 'insult' or 'snide comment'. Please refrain from this type of comment in the KEWK threads.
Thanks BGH.
AL500, for you to insinuate that an atheist lives an empty and meaningless existance simply because we do not believe in a deity is not only an erroneous assumption, but a cruel and unfounded one as well.
If you'd like to see this idea addressed, you can do so here.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
Also, theists, while I appreciate your answers, the idea behind the question is not the DOUBTING of god. It's your feelings pertaining to the idea that a god doesn't exist.
The doubting part is just to lay the pre-requisite. If you've never ever doubted, then pretend.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
If God doesn't exist, then what is the purpose of our life? To have as much fun as possible before we die? Is that it?
If God does exist, then we have a purpose - to tell others about him and to worship him, because he would have created us and would be omnipotent.
The thought of God not existing doesn't really scare me, it just means that my life has no real purpose.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
And how would you feel about your 'life having no real purpose'?
Lol, you're starting to sound like Dr. Phil. (i.e. "And how do you feel about this?" "And how do you feel about that?"
. If my life had no real purpose, I wouldn't really see a reason to live (redundant, yes), so if my life starts getting bad I should just commit suicide because I have nothing to live for. If my life stayed "good" I don't really see what I should do, maybe party, have as much money and sex as possible (the common views of most people), and just "stay alive." There wouldn't be much point in living now, would there?
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I can't answer that question because I am not capable of doubting. I know too much. And I stand by by statement. If God does not exist, then your life is as valuable as an ameba's.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
I'm an atheist, and the fact that I don't think that there is a God terrifies the hell outa me. I will openly admit, I fear what death brings. I fear the inevitable end of all man-kind one day. I fear a great many things that will come into occurence without the thought of god. However, the difference is that even though I am afraid, I do not shy away, I do not back down, I do not accept half-truths or lies. I will stand my ground and I will deal with whatever happens. But, does that make me any less afraid? Hell no.
"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.
I'm a contrarian and a skeptic by nature so doubt and me go way back. I certainly have doubts and the thought of there being no God does frighten me.
My answer is somewhat different than I've seen other express and I will try to be as forthright as I can. The idea of no God frightens me because I'm depending on God. By this I mean that I'm actively engaged in a process in which I surrender my will for God's will, opening up myself to God to turn me from selfish to selfless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, I suck at selflessness. But that's my point, I need help, and that's what frightens me, "what if there is no help?" Then I'm screwed. I could make a comparison to investing a lot in a business; would the thought of that business venture in which I've invested my time, money and energy going belly up frighten me? Well yes, I've invested a lot and have a lot riding on it. So, I have a lot riding on God's existence, but not only that…His love for me (really, even me?), His goodness (God, are you holding out on me?) and His mercy (I've done some pretty selfish things).
So for me there is a continuum of doubt that starts with "does God exist?" (for me I feel fortunate to have received rather direct and individual answers to this question) and moves on to questions like "do You love me?", "will You help me?" and the like. For me faith is not easy because it means trusting God to provide for me and guide me. I prefer to provide for myself and go my own way. However, over the years I have learned the hard way that I suck at being in control and that I'm actually much better off when I trust God to look after me; this frees me up to focus on being of service to others (and I'm not implying that this is the only way to server others, just my experience).
Hope that helps.
Does the idea that there is no God frighten me?
In all honesty no...but I have to admit there are reasons that beyond all my doubt that gods exist (yes I doubted). I have concluded that it is unlikely that with our finite senses and infinite knowledge there is to discover, that anything is impossible. My conclusion is that with so many things that are unknowable that have become possible now, I think there must be infinite possibilities. The trick is to ignore the subjective looking-glass we all see through. I think Atheism LIMITS us is all. It rules out possibilities rather than adding anything. Even agnostics add the trump card of "anything's possible". Atheism just adds "there is NOT". It is correct to assume that there is no evidence, but that doesn't mean it's unfindable. Anything's possible!
Religion gave science a think tank to discover the answers to those questions. Most men and women of science started from a religious background, and began to question the universe around them and sought to find the answers. When they searched many found things that we not incompatible with their faith, some did find stuff incompatible wth their faith. It sparked change. Which is good. Change is a good thing, but ruling out possiblilities limits us greatly. So I don't.
I'm not afraid of death. Because anything is possible and in the words of JK Rowling's famous character Dumbledore, "Death, after all is the next big adventure." Whether we just cease to exist, or our souls go somewhere, at least we find the answer. I find it facinating and exciting rather than nerve-wreaking.
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For some reason, I can't conceive of a universe without something "big" out there. I can go through the mental excercises of atheism and follow along quite nicely, but I always end up in the same place. There is always something missing that I can't put my finger on. Adding god to the "equation" balances things quite nicely for me. Fear is not a part of this. For me, a universe without god seems somehow smaller. I am not frightened by the idea univesrse without god, but I would be dissappointed to find that this were the case.
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I'm not a theist so I won't be answering the first question. However i'm answering his.
Why would I be afraid of judgment, if god existed? You are really trying to ask "What if X god exists" that is not the same as asking "What if god exists". The idea, and normal view of god holds no punishment, or no reward for that matter, just something that created the universe. Also, a lot of gods were created from the begining of the earth to now, which god are we to expect exists?
If I found out X god exists, say christian god, I would not be afraid of hell myself, I know I already made the choice and there is no way to be forgiven. Fear stems from something you can fix, not something you can not. Acceptance stems from something you can not. Also, pain is subjective, after awhile in hell you would ignore it completely, even after a month you would of constant pain. So hell would not scare me really. I think heaven myself would be worse, because boredom would set in after so long. Same with hell, but it'd take longer.
"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken
Thank god i'm a atheist!
If evolution holds true, which it has proven to, then you are more important by the level of evolution. Since you are more complex, and one of the highest, if not highest evolved animal on the planet, your life in more valuable then an ameba. Although thats how I see it.
Btw, your one funny theist.
"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken
Thank god i'm a atheist!
I thought that evolutionarily speaking, the most valued genes were those that survived the longest. There are many species that have survived longer than humans. The Coelacanth comes to mind . http://www.dinofish.com/
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I said to me thats how it is. I thought I clarified that at the end. Some people see it as quality of genes like me, some people see it as age of genes. Some people see it as amount of genes.
"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken
Thank god i'm a atheist!
This comment has been moved here.
Good questions.
I went through a phase about 20 years ago where I seriously began to question my (waning) faith.
Did it frighten me - no. What frightened me was somehow ending up in this "land of limbo" where I was essentially agnostic and neither believed nor disbelieved.
What frightened me was being intellectually lazy and not making the effort to get to the "truth" and spending a lifetime in this 'limbo zone".
I have a question for evolutionists. If we are still evolving, then our brains are still evolving. Since our brains are still evolving, why do atheists trust the stuff and partially evolved logic coming from a still evolving brain? If your brain is still evolving, why do you trust its thoughts concerning atheism? How do you know atheism is true since atheism is the product of a imperfect brain?
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
This is an interesting point. But aren't we theists subject to the same dilemma?
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The idea that brains are still evolving is correct.
But the question still suggests an incomplete understanding of what evolutionary theory actually says. There is no perfect brain that people are evolving toward--evolution doesn't have long-term goals.
The bad assumption about "imperfect" evolution then leads to a logical flaw--that evolving things are not functional until they're somehow finished evolving. That's not how it works. There's no necessary connection between the fact that brains evolve and the validity of their logic. An evolving brain is perfectly capable of having sound logic, just like an evolving bird's wing is perfectly capable of flight or an evolving fish gill is perfectly capable of extracting oxygen from water.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
Wave, no we are not because we don't believe in evolution. We are fully evolved. And we do not derive our knowledge of God from an evolving brain, but from Divine revelation. I was just showing the inconsitent position of atheism.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
Thank you for conceding my point. This will help me below.
Since your brain is not fully evoloved, why do you trust that thought, and any thought?
Again, why do you trust that thought and opinion? How can you have objective and absolute knowledge on something that is coming from a non-objective and relative brain? Second, how do you know evolution has no long term goals? Did the evolutionary mechanism tell you this? Or are you assuming it, and again why trust the validity of your opinions from a half-baked brain?
How can you even appeal to logic that is produced by a brain that is still evolving?
No, that is not science. It is your opinion; an opinion from an imperfect brain. Everything you say you contradict yourself. You cannot know anything with certainty if your brain is uncertain.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
You are misconceptualising evolution. Your brain and my brain are not evolving. Our childrens brains, and their childrens brains, will have evolved from ours.
Also, there is no "perfection" that evolution works towards. No matter how far it goes, there's still distance to go. Much like attempting to achieve light speed with conventional means. No matter how fast you go, you can still go faster. Which does not mean your current speed is unstable or untrustworthy.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
So this is all we can become? That's rather depressing.
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