THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational. This thread is a compilation of views from our community on why theism is irrational. The show is available right now via subscription.


MattShizzle
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Hmmm levels of irrationality. In my opinion:

MOST IRRATIONAL

Satanism (I'm talking about actually worshipping the Biblical Satan, not the Levayan[sp?] version)
Scientology, various other Cults
Christianity, Islam
Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism
Nature religions/Paganism/Pantheism
Buddhism, Taoism

LEAST IRRATIONAL

This is far from a complete list, but it gives some idea of my opinion on how irrational each religion is. Atheism is, of course, completely rational and not a religion! Smiling

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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational because it relies on theistic faith, belief without evidence. Belief without evidence is irrational because it has no use, it is not able to help us make reliable predictions, which is the basis of all reason. When something is believed more on faith than evidence, the reliability of predictions goes way down. For example, if you pray for someone to get healthy from a sickness, the prediction would be that people should get better more often than those who are not prayed for. And yet the prediction turns out false and is thus unreliable. When medicinces are used, the predictions of better health actually come true. Thus believing in something with no evidence is irrational, and believing something with evidence is rational. Thus theism is irrational.

Theism is irrational because it depends on theistic faith, belief with no evidence. Belief with no evidence is irrational because it leads to disagreement rather than agreement, and rational discussion cannot progress without agreement. If 100 people base a belief on faith, you will get 100 disagreeing answers to a question. But if the same people base a belief on evidence, given sufficient evidence, they will all arrive at agreement with the same answer. Thus theistic faith is irrational.

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Theism is Irrational Because...

I was sitting in my living room with my born-again Christian niece one night when we got into a conversation about "mother nature". She informed me that the concept of "mother nature" was satanic because it meant ignoring Jesus's role in creating the natural universe (we'll ignore the interchangeability of Jesus and God in the Christian mind for now). We discussed this for a little bit before she finally informed me that I couldn't understand the concept because I wasn't "saved" and therefore would go to hell. I asked her about the people that existed for thousands of years before biblical accounts purported to begin. She informed me that anyone who wasn't saved went to hell, including those who were unfortunate enough to live before the savior even existed! So I asked her, if Charles Manson were to accept Jesus Christ as his savior would he gain entrance into heaven? "Yes", she answered. I was floored! So I said, "Let me get this straight. If I brokered world peace but didn't accept Christ as my savior, then I would go to hell. But if Charles Manson accepts Christ into his heart, then he'll go to heaven?" Again she answered, "Yes". This is why theism is irrational. It may be worth noting that she later became the leader of a female gang in Texas and is now a recovering drug addict. My sister's other daughter had two children out of wedlock and her son is a meth addict.


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Damn! That shows how fucked-up Christianity is! Basically what you think is more important than what you do. I am SO glad I am an atheist! That was interesting in that video where they showed the percentage of Christians in the general population in the US and in prison was the same (75%), but in the gen population in the US was 10%, but in prison was 0.2 %. Wouldn't that prove that Atheists are more moral than Christians?

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Darwin5223
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

MattShizzle wrote:
Damn! That shows how fucked-up Christianity is! Basically what you think is more important than what you do. I am SO glad I am an atheist! That was interesting in that video where they showed the percentage of Christians in the general population in the US and in prison was the same (75%), but in the gen population in the US was 10%, but in prison was 0.2 %. Wouldn't that prove that Atheists are more moral than Christians?

Speaking for myself, I feel that I don't need to be kept in line under the threat of punishment from some higher being. I'm a good person and always try to do the right thing simply because its the right thing to do. Christians and other proselytizing religions help their fellow man, not to do good for good's sake, but in order to convert people to their religion. So atheists are undoubtedly more moral than Christians!


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An essay? I can sum it up in one word. One word: Leviticus.

It just seems so ridiculous to me that some omnipotent god, with infinite power and knowledge, would care about whether or not I eat something with a cloven hoof.

And some of the information in the Bible is just wrong. Leviticus 11:6: 'Regard the rabbit as unclean, for though it chews the cud, it does not have a cloven hoof.' Rabbits don't chew cud. You would think an omnipotent diety, which created aforementioned animal, would know that.


MattShizzle
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There's a lot of stuff that's wrong in the Bible. Obviously, if there is a god, he/she/it didn't write the bible. Or he did it as a joke to fuck with his creation to see just how absurd of shit he wrote he could get his creation to believe! Laughing out loud

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I hope a gigabite of words is alright for ya. (heh almost 1024 wordcount)

http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/bashh/Theism_is_irrational.doc

I appologize if it's too lengthy, or ramblicious.


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Bashh wrote:
I hope a gigabite of words is alright for ya. (heh almost 1024 wordcount)

http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/bashh/Theism_is_irrational.doc

I appologize if it's too lengthy, or ramblicious.

Cool, I posted it in our young library. Check it out.

- Brian Sapient


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Bashh
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Thanks, but you might want to fix some of the superscript, add carats to the things like V1 = 1.08623034 ? 1021 should be 10^21 :3

I can reformat it to HTML if you want

edit!

http://www.hosting.nsagames.com/bashh/Theism_is_irrational.htm

just copy paste source :3


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- Brian Sapient


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Bashh
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Hooah!


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Why Theism Is Irrational
By David Coss (AKA, Chaoslord2004)

Theism is irrational because it is logically impossible for theism to be rational. When I say it is logically impossible for theism to be rational, I am talking about more than mere inductive probability. Assuming theism is rational leads to inconsistencies. What, however, causes theism to be irrational? The concept of theism has built into its very meaning, the notion that it must be irrationality by nature. Even if the concept of theism wasn?t inherently irrational, it would still be irrational based on the lack of evidence. Immanuel Kant once said ?You cannot prove the existence of God,? and I wholeheartedly concur.
What does theism mean? Theism means the belief in God. This is obvious, so I hope this doesn?t sound condescending. However, within the very concept of theism is the additional concept of faith. As a philosopher, I hate to play petty semantic games, and I will therefore go to great lengths to define something properly. Faith is defined as the belief in something, with flagrant disregard of evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, faith persists even if there is no evidence for what the person believes. If there could be a cardinal sin of rationality, it would be faith; this should be ubiquitous to anyone of rationality. People of reason use evidence, science and cogent argumentation to persuade people to their beliefs. Moreover, people of rationality hold their beliefs based on rigorous investigation using the scientific method, and, the rules of deductive reasoning.
Theism, therefore, has a latent component which needs to be made manifest. Theism is not simply ?belief in God? but it is belief in God, based on faith. Without faith, theism would crumble from a lack of foundation. For this reason, if one holds one set of theistic propositions and also holds another set of propositions which demand rationality, they will be inconsistent. Theists cannot have it both ways. Theists can be rational, and therefore abandon theism or they can be irrational and cling to theism. Theists cannot have their cake and eat it too.
However, what if the concept of faith was disjoined from the concept of theism? Would it then be rational? It is possible. However, as of now, it is inductively improbable. One of the principles of critical thinking is that one must have good reasons (i.e, good justification) for holding to their set of beliefs. Without a good justification, their set of beliefs must be deemed irrational.
Many theists claim they have good reasons to believe that their God exists. I do not doubt their sincerity, but I explicitly deny the fact that they have good reasons. As of right now, every single argument for the existence of God has been shown to be fallacious. I will not delve into the arguments for God?s existence, because we are all familiar with them (on some level or another).
The theist not only has no evidence in his or her favor, but the theist must deal with various arguments against the existence of God; this is where the theist?s metaphorical goose is cooked. For instance, given that the theist agrees that there is evil in the world, how can he or she claim God is all good? My favorite argument against the existence of god has as its conclusion that the concept of God is incoherent, and therefore, meaningless. S?ren Kierkegaard, a famous 19th century theologian said that rationality carries the theist only so far; after that, one must take a ?leap of faith.? Kierkegaard confirms what we already know: Theism is inherently irrational. I would like to end this essay with a quote by Daniel Dennett:
?The kindly God who lovingly fashioned each and every one of us and sprinkled the sky with shining stars for our delight -- that God is, like Santa Claus, a myth of childhood, not anything a sane, undeluded adult could literally believe in. That God must either be turned into a symbol for something less concrete or abandoned altogether (Daniel Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p. 18).?

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


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ahh theism

hmm. let me think. c'mon drunky....i think the rationality of theism for me has mainly been a question of mechanism. the idea of a god who controls or guides our lives is still lacking insofar as a definite mechanism with which he controls same. there is no such "invisible hand" as i see it, and as so far as good things happen to bad people, or vice versa no understandable way exists of control. as for the deists... wouldnt this negate the idea of a god who cares about us at all? there are no religious writings i know about that talk about a god who simply created us and left us to fend for ourselves, seeming all non-chalant about the whole thing.
also when people talk to me about karma and reincarnation and spiritual while not theistic beliefs like that i always find myself asking... what is the mechanism? i mean, what makes life balance out all the time? who is keeping a running tab on our actions, and why do so many oppressors get away with their humanitarian attrocities? i even had a soft spot for buddhism (calling it a philosophy, a system of meditation instead of what it really is, a highly organized and caustic religion) in line with my white suburban upbringing of reverence for eastern religions until i spoke to a man in Phnom Phen, Cambodia who explained to me that although he had no legs below his knees (either because of Nixons unexploded ordinance or the Khmer Rouge's terrorism against their own people) and his entire family had been killed, karma would balance it all out, and in the next life things would generally be better. that shit really pissed me off.
i mean, im used to that sort of suffering-as-redemtion bullshit from catholics, but i had no idea this poison was so wide spread.
and every buddhist or christian or muslim or hindu i have ever talked to had drawn a blank when it came to mechanism... the way things have to work, every time, the same way. i know thats what i trust about science. not that it will work every time, but that when it doesnt, i have a reasonable chance to find out why... not just blame it on a thing i must accept i can never understand. fuck that. we were made for better things.
?I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.?
Galileo Galilei
its cheesy but apt. i think
griffin


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is a school of religious philosophy which recognizes that most existing religious thought is based on outdated myths and superstitions.
More needs to be said about theism as a philosophy, especially about certain questions traditionally attached to the philosophy of theism. For example, in speculating on theism, one of the questions that arises is about the relation of human language to God, i.e., How is human language (with its reference to finite beings) predicable of an infinite being? Another question deals with whether it is possible to demonstrate rationally, or at least to justify rationally, belief in God's existence. Philosophers of religion also ask whether a particular mode of experience is specifically religious. Likewise, they ask about the relation of the providence and soverignty of God to the freedom and responsibility of man. Finally, there is the question about the internal consistency of theological systems that hold to the existence of an all powerful, all loving God along with the presence of evil in the world.


random_antitheist
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Is there an email address we send this essay to or what?


Sapient
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random_antitheist wrote:
Is there an email address we send this essay to or what?

Just post it right here. If it's too big, email it to me. Email address should be below.

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To follow along with what Natural said:

Faith is belief based on desire. Period. Theistic faith is not an epistemological position, it's a rejection of epistemology itself... it's the claim that one can hold to a belief without any reason.

The desires to hold to such beliefs are inculcated into us before we are even capable of going to the bathroom on our own. To learn to question what we have been told, is to step into adulthood.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Chaoslord2004
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todangst wrote:
To follow along with what Natural said:

Faith is belief based on desire. Period. Theistic faith is not an epistemological position, it's a rejection of epistemology itself... it's the claim that one can hold to a belief without any reason.

The desires to hold to such beliefs are inculcated into us before we are even capable of going to the bathroom on our own. To learn to question what we have been told, is to step into adulthood.

Indeed. To quote Dan Dennett:

"The kindly God who lovingly fashioned each and every one of us and sprinkled the sky with shining stars for our delight -- that God is, like Santa Claus, a myth of childhood, not anything [that] a sane, undeluded adult could literally believe in. That God must either be turned into a symbol for something less concrete or abandoned altogether."
-- Daniel Dennett, from Darwins Dangerous Idea

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


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Theism is irrational because I am not a god.

We should not work to end theistic belief because the very beauty of freethinking is that there will always be a diverse community of people believing different things.

Instead, time and effort should be put into ending dogma, and the effects of dogma on a democratic civilization (Creationism in schools, Religiosity, Breakdown of Sep. of Church and State) to uphold an entirely non-biased secular view, theist and atheist alike.


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational because it originated in an attempt to provide an explanation for natural events, whether it be earth/wind/fire or social organisation. Its few remaining pretences of rationality are in those areas in which there are competing scientific claims to validity. The advance of science has deprived it of much of human fears upon which it provided assurance/comfort, whilst post-traditional forms of social organisation - concepts such as citizenship etc - have deprived it of the role of social glue for human societal reproduction. Theism is irrational because it objectifies idealisations of human existence and posits them beyond human experience, and leads to delusions of deferred gratification, a tolerance of the status quo, whether it be a caste system or class system. Modern society has sufficent rational capabilities in terms of moral/practical knowledge to check those aspects of scientific knowledge that operate on what can be done over that which should be done and if anything moral reasoning is inhibited by theism, as it detaches it from human authorship of the world. 100 words yet?


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

How is theism irrational? What is theism, exactly?
To believe in a God, you must have what is called ?faith.? Even if you aren?t religious, God is a ridiculous, extreme idea with no basis in logic or evidence. In order to be so irrational, to think that something that claims to be true without reason is indeed true, simply because it says it is, you must have the irrational concept of faith. So, what is faith?

Christians say it is their belief in God and Jesus, etc. They believe in these concepts while they are still unproven by logic or evidence. Christians say it themselves; if they had proof for God or Jesus, it wouldn?t be faith they were operating off of. It would be knowledge. So, people believe God and Jesus just because?

Obviously not. There is always a reason to everything. People don?t just find out about Jesus and God on their own. They are taught it. By parents, or pastors, or priests or friends. So, faith, regardless of what the Christians may call it, is not faith in God or Jesus or the Bible. It is irrational blind faith in people. They believe what their parents taught them to be truth, and do not question it. Infants are programmed this way.

"Don't eat that berry, its poison."

"Okay, mommy."

"Don't touch that snake, it'll bite you."

"Okay, mommy."

"Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. He's your savior whether you like it or not."

"Okay, mommy."

Faith is a substitute for knowledge. Knowledge is actually knowing something because of logic or evidence, but Christians say it themselves: ?If we had evidence, it wouldn?t be faith.? Of course it wouldn?t. Faith is imitation knowledge. People may say they know their religion to be true, but quite obviously they do not. They can?t know, or its not faith at all. And yet they believe it with all their heart.

So, when someone says ?I have faith,? they are just saying, ?I believe because I was told to.? They are just saying ?I believe because I don?t think about anything and just accept these things are truth.? That?s exactly what faith is: the absence of knowledge and the absence of thought. How much more irrational can you get? Not much.

People of faith are weak minded. That?s not my opinion, that?s the truth, and no one could possibly argue. Having faith in God and Jesus is just as ridiculous and insane as having faith in flying pink unicorns or invisible hamsters around Pluto. To believe whole-heartedly in any of these, one must be weak minded in one way or another. Not necessarily stupid (although this is usually the case), but simply weak-minded.

Weak-minded because you couldn?t face reality, so you converted. Weak-minded because you see insane visions of angels and think they?re signs from God. Weak-minded, like a child, because you were raised to be weak-minded by your parents and now refuse to ever accept truth. In some way, shape, or form, ALL theists are weak-minded, irrational fools to believe in such an irrational concept, regardless of what they say their IQ may or may not be.

But obviously not all theists are Christians. Theists come in many shapes and forms; however, they are almost always the same in the aspects already mentioned. To believe in a God is to shake off responsibility for your own actions. It is to deny harsh realities, such as death and suffering. People say this is God?s great plan, and that God works in mysterious ways. So, now you don?t even know what you believe in? You don?t even know how this ?God? does things and you still believe? What is it you believe in? That there?s a God, but you don?t know anything about him, you just know he?s there somewhere? How can you know this? You don?t. You?re acting insane. You?re being irrational.

People say that there must have been a creator, because everything is so complex. However, this creates a far greater problem: God must also be complex. So, by their own arguments, God must also have a creator. But, then, he isn?t God, is he? But, of course, theists don?t think about this. They don?t try to think at all. They focus on the answer instead of the question; the answer THEY want. Even though it doesn?t make any sense.

Delusions are the most irrational things: Things people believe are true even when it makes no sense at all. To be rational is to think. To be a theist is to not think. Theism is the opposite of rationality.

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

On the Irrationality of Theism
by Richard Spencer

Theism is irrational because it fails to meet the standards of evidence required of rational beliefs. In order for a belief to be considered rational, the probability that the belief is true must be above fifty percent; unfortunately, however, beliefs do not come with neatly quantified probabilities. Consequently, for beliefs like theism, it is our task to examine all of the evidence available to us both for and against the belief and then determine which direction the evidence points. Then, to be a rational person, we should choose to accept beliefs supported by the evidence available to us and reject beliefs unsupported by the evidence. In the case of theism, my experience thus far has convinced me that not only are there no good arguments for theism, there are many good arguments against it. My purpose in this essay is to explain briefly why I accept this sort of evidentialism and have concluded that theism is unsupported by the evidence and should therefore be considered irrational.

There are at least three potential responses to the line of reasoning above. First, it may be claimed that one is entitled to believe in God irrationally. Strictly speaking, one is entitled to believe any irrational thing he or she wants, but this is no way implies that we should desire to possess irrational beliefs. Without some kind of standard for determining which beliefs we should hold and which we should reject, one's beliefs will become hopelessly arbitrary and self-serving. Although such a person may be happy in some trivial sense, we simply have no cause for supposing anything he or she believes is true.

Second, one may make the following claim of Reformed Epistemologists:

(1) Belief in God is properly basic and therefore can be held rationally without evidence or arguments in its favor.

However, I find this position to be deeply flawed and question-begging. Before we accept (1), we should be given some rational grounds for believing that (1) is true. However, upon defending (1), it has become an argument that attempts to rationally justify belief in God. Thus the defender of (1) cannot argue for this position without falling into contradiction. Furthermore, even the leading Reformed Epistemologists admittedly can provide no sufficient criteria for proper basicality when theism is accepted as properly basic. Consequently, (1) appears to be a self-defeating position.

Quite obviously, the third response to my opening paragraph would be that theism is rational--that I have either improperly evaluated the evidence for and against theism or that I have not examined enough of the evidence before reaching my conclusion. This may well be the case. I will therefore take it as my duty for the remainder of this essay to explain why I believe various theistic arguments fail and atheistic arguments succeed.

Theistic Arguments
The Big Three

Any discussion of theistic arguments must include examination of "the big three," that is, the ontological, cosmological, and teleological arguments. It is important to note that these are not three arguments, but rather are three types of arguments. Since a detailed analysis of all variations of these arguments is far beyond the scope of this brief essay, I can only list some general reasons for rejecting these broad types of arguments.

First, ontological arguments (OA) deserve consideration not because they are particularly convincing, but rather because they have experienced a certain popularity among some theists in the past. There are few today who defend OA; instead, the discussion of OA is directed not at whether or not OA fails, but where and how it fails. As it now stands, every form of OA I have encountered, including Anselm's, Descartes's, and those of modern theists, reduces to unfounded assumptions or question-begging. While proponents of OA attempt to define God into existence, they appear to forget that existence is not a property--it is that which without no properties could be held. Because of this common error (and a few others) OA fails and therefore provides no evidence for theism.

Next, proponents of comsological arguments (CA) make a variety of claims about the universe itself as evidence for theism; these claims include the contingency of the universe, the very existence of the universe, the discovery of the Big Bang, and the impossibility of an infinite regress of causes. The problem with CA is usually specific to the version of CA being presented (we've just seen four), but there are a few general points we may note. First, the question "why does the universe exist rather than nothing at all?" is no more of a problem for atheism than the question, "why does God exist rather than nothing at all," is for theism. Neither the theist nor atheist knows for sure why the universe exists (if there is a reason) or how it came from a state prior to the Big Bang to exist in its current state. Theists are free to speculate about the necessity of God's existence but at no point have they produced any real evidence for their conclusions. Also, it is important to note that the Big Bang does not require us to believe the universe popped into existence from nothing. The Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe; it was merely the beginning of the state of the universe we now live in. Overall, CA seems to present us with nothing more than a string of "god-of-the-gaps" arguments that lose credibility with every scientific advance in cosmology.

Third, and finally, proponents of the teleological argument (TA) claim that the "orderliness" of the universe, or apparent "design in nature," proves the existence of a God. Richard Carrier easily exposed the flaws of this position in a debate when he pointed out that not knowing what causes certain things to happen does not justify one to conclude that an intelligent being is the cause. He further pointed out that unexplained order in the universe can never count as evidence for theism because we cannot know that a natural explanation is not forthcoming. We must be careful to note that we are not appealing to ignorance by claiming that a natural explanation could exist. To the contrary, because the hypothesis that supernatural agency is the cause of anything has consistently been replaced successfully by natural explanations, there is no reason to suppose that this trend will not continue. In this way, we are appealing to what we know about the world, not what we don't know (that is the strategy of the theist). Although it is logically possible that supernatural agency does exist (arguably), because natural explanations have not been ruled out, we would be wrong to conclude that any form of TA offers evidence for theism.

Moral Arguments

Another popular form of theistic argument is the appeal to our sense of right and wrong. The claim is often made that without God morality must be subjective, and since there are certain things that we wish to label absolutely wrong, subjective morality cannot suffice. Instead, we must acknowledge the existence of a moral law provided by a moral law giver, i.e., God. This form of argument fails to provide any evidence for theism for a multitude of reasons. First, it confutes absolute morality with objective morality; it is not necessary for something to be absolutely wrong in order for it to be objectively wrong. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to construct a theory of objective morality that does not require any appeal to a god. Instead, it needs to appeal only to the fact that we are temporal, mortal beings who desire one state of affairs over another. More problems arise for the theist when we pry beneath the surface of his or her argument and ask exactly how the existence of God provides us with objective morality. We must wonder whether God is a tyrant enforcing the moral rules he made up or whether he is himself subject to some eternal moral law. Though the discussion certainly does not end here, at this point we begin to see that the theist's position is no less problematic than the atheist's and may even be worse. In the end, we may conclude that the existence of morality does not at all serve as evidence for theism; in fact, morality may be more of enemy for theism than an ally.

Religious Experience

Having once been a Christian, the argument from Religious Experience is one with which I am intimately familiar. It was, after all, the only argument I had left after a certain point on my path to atheism. Although the belief that one has experienced God or heard his voice may be very strong for a believer, when considered objectively, religious experience can only prove that something happened inside the mind of the believer. Even theists are quick to discredit the religious experiences of people of other religions; any objective observer can quickly see that alternative explanations exist for the religious experiences of all believers regardless of the brand of religion in question. Furthermore, neurological evidence that demonstrates the same areas of the brain are involved in the religious experiences of all various religionists strongly suggests that religious experience is entirely rooted in the brain. That the existence of the supernatural is responsible for any religious experience is an unnecessary hypothesis because sufficient natural explanations do exist. Thus the ubiquity and uniformity of religious experience is a testament to the uniformity of human physiology and not the existence of God. Therefore, the argument from Religious Experience is no evidence for theism.

Although other arguments for theism exist, we may assume that since the above arguments are commonly considered the strongest forms of theistic arguments, and because these all fail, all weaker arguments for theism also fail. But we cannot stop here. If it were simply the case that no evidence succeeded in shifting the weight of evidence towards theism, it may also be true that no evidence exists that shifts the balance away from it. However, as we will now see, there are many atheistic arguments that collectively provide powerful evidence that atheism is true and that theism therefore irrational.

Atheistic Arguments
The Evidential Argument from Evil

It has long been recognized that the Epicurean formulation of the problem of evil does not succeed in demostrating that theism is logically impossible. Since it is logically possible that God could have a reason for allowing evil to exist that is morally justificatory, it may be true that the existence of evil is compatible with theism. On the other hand, the Evidential Argument from Evil (EAE) seeks not to show that theism is logically impossible given the existence of evil, but rather that theism is rendered highly improbable by the existence of evil. The EAE has taken on many different forms that have not been sufficiently answered by theists. Richard Carrier contributed to this brand of atheistic argument skillfully in Sense and Goodness Without God. In addition to Carrier's discussion there, others have produced insightful contributions to the EAE including William Rowe, Theodore Drange, Nicolas Everitt, Paul Draper, Michael Martin, Quentin Smith and Richard Gale. Also, Jeffrey Jay Lowder has presented arguments that powerfully demonstrate our world is not at all the kind of world we would expect if theism were true. Specifically, the biological role of pain and pleasure, the flourishing and languishing of sentient beings, the occurence of tragedies, and God's silence in the face of tragedies strongly imply that atheism, not theism, is true.

The Physical Dependence of Minds on the Brain

Another argument that powerfully demonstrates the improbability of theism is that if minds require physical brains, then the implication is that disembodied minds do not exist. Because all of the evidence available to us strongly suggests that minds do require physical brains, and since God is supposed to be or possess a disembodied mind, it is unlikely that God exists.

The Argument from Religious Confusion

The religious landscape is invariably muddied by competing and contradictory opinions about the nature of God. Since we would expect that any theistic God would want his nature and expectations clearly revealed to his beloved creation, the lack of such clarity in the religious landscape is evidence against theism.

The Evidence for Evolution

Although theism is logically compatible with evolution, the occurence of evolution seems to speak against the truth of theism. Because evolution does not proceed with any kind of guidance or goal in mind, and because beneficial mutations are caused by the same mechanisms as harmful ones, the emergence of humans is exposed by evolution to not be the result of any kind of divine plan. Furthermore, evolution by natural selection drove another nail into the coffin of theism by demonstrating that complex order and design can arise naturally.

The Arguments from Nonbelief, the Reasonableness of Nonbelief, and Divine Hiddenness.

Quite simply, there is no apparent reason that God could have for not providing clear knowledge of himself to those he desires to believe in him. Furthermore, there seems to be no morally justificatory reason that God could have for concealing his existence. Moreover, the existence of widespread nonbelief in the theistic God is evidence against theism; the lack of clear knowledge of God is evidence against the existence of a God who could provide such knowledge; and, since we would expect nonbelief in God to be unreasonable if theism were true given the nature of the theistic God, the reasonableness of nonbelief is evidence against theism.

Atheistic Cosmological Arguments

Although we examined theistic cosmological arguments above, we may now observe some ways in which arguments from the universe may be fired back against theism. As both Carrier and Everitt have argued, the scale of the universe speaks against the truth of theism. Given only the hypothesis that God exists and what the universe looks like from this planet without the aid of technology, ancient cultures produced visions of the cosmos that differ dramatically from what science has revealed. If God created the universe for the purpose of placing humans in it, then it would make sense for the universe to be on a human scale. However, the universe is not on a human scale. Instead, we find a universe that displays no concern for us at all and in which we occupy only a tiny part. There is no obvious reason that the God of theism could have had for creating such an unimaginably huge universe, thus it seems more probable that theism is false--that God didn't create it at all. Furthermore, if arguments like those of Victor Stenger and Quentin Smith are correct, then the universe not only has no need for supernatural explanations, it precludes them.

The Problem of Coherence

The task of producing a meaningful and consistent definition of the theistic God is difficult enough in the eyes of many philosophers that the concept is often considered vacuous. Determining what is even meant by the various attributes commonly given to God is complicated (for example, what it means to be all-loving or all-knowing is not entirely clear) and the problems created by attempting to reconcile these attributes with each other are vast. Carrier has presented an argument along these lines by demonstrating the difficulty attached to the doctrine of omnipresence. Since omnipresence cannot mean that God exists in every spatial location (as we can clearly see by looking in front of us), then it follows that God must have no spatial location. However, if God has no spatial location then God exists nowhere; if God exists nowhere, then God does not exist. Problems arise in the same way with the doctrine of immateriality. Since it is claimed that God is not composed of matter, then it follows that God is made of nothing. However, if God is made of nothing then he is nothing, i.e., he does not exist. The theist may reply that God's existence is some other type than spatial and material, but because we have no idea what such existence would be, we begin to see why the concept of God is often considered vacuous.

The Argument from the Edibility of Living Organisms

All of the above arguments have been presented before in greater detail by others. However, the final argument for atheism I wish to present is an argument that I have constructed: the Argument from the Edibility of Living Organisms. The argument can be summarized like this: The construction of living organisms out of edible material, and the necessity of the consumption of living or once living organisms for the overwhelming majority of species is much more likely if atheism were true, and is not at all what we would expect if theism were true. An essential component of my argument is not that living organisms are eaten, but that they are simply edible. It is logically possible that God created all living organisms to be edible, but an omnipotent God surely could have created life otherwise. In contrast, we know of no other way that life could arise naturally.

Furthermore, I can think of no morally justificatory reason that a God could have for creating humans, plants, and other animals with the ability to be consumed and the need to consume. Instead, if theism were true, we would not initially expect us to possess the need for food at all. We have no evidence that disembodied beings like angels and demons, if they exist, require sustenance; and God certainly cannot require sustenance. So, since the existence of bodies that require sustenance creates competition for limited resources, and since it is possible, on theism, that a life can exist that does not require sustenance, we would expect that a morally perfect God would not make our bodies in a way that requires sustenance or, perhaps, that God would provide the necessary sustenance in unlimited amounts from non-living sources. For example, we might expect to be able to receive our nutrition through the sunlight or, as Breatharians imagine, through the simple act of breathing.

To summarize, it seems likely that God would have avoided creating organisms that require the consumption of other organisms to live. It is also unknown why God would have created humans--if we are to be the jewel of creation--with the ability to be eaten and digested like the rest of the animal world. On theism there is simply no reason why life would be characterized by such a necessary struggle for survival in which living organisms must feed on other living or once living organisms. However, such a system is precisely what one might expect if atheism were true. Indeed, it does not seem that nature could produce life any other way; since competition for limited resources is one of the necessary components of natural selection, and since living organisms not only require these resources but also constitute these resources (i.e., food), the edibility of living organisms has invariably shaped the creation of life in its present form. Thus, the edibility of living organisms is not suprising given atheism, yet it is not at all what we would expect if theism were true. Thus it appears that the edibility of living organisms is some evidence for atheism and against theism.

Conclusion

Given the relative brevity of this essay, the arguments presented both for and against theism have undoubtedly been oversimplified; the strength and weaknesses of the above arguments is found in the details--details unfortunately not found here. Luckily my purpose was not to convince anyone of the truth of atheism and the irrationality of theism. Instead, my purpose was to explain what has lead me to conclude that theism is irrational. In this task, I believe I have succeeded; we have seen several reasons why I believe theism not only has no evidence in its favor, but that the evidence points clearly towards atheism. In conclusion, it may benefit us to note that any faith-based belief cannot be held rationally; because faith provides us with no method for distinction between true and false propositions, it is clearly epistemologically invalid, thus an appeal to faith cannot salvage anything lost here. In the final analysis, theism is irrational. For anyone concerned with responding to "irrational emergencies," belief in God should put us on the highest alert. Until humanity is satisifed with taking a fully natural view of ourselves and our place in the universe, humanity will be inevitably plagued by the God delusion and the tangible consequences of irrational belief. For this reason, it is in the best interest of humanity to abandon theism and it is our moral obligation to facilitate this change.


Robyn
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Why I think theism is irrational!!!!

Essay written by: Robyn Hanson
Who are we dying for? What justifies death? Which God? Which moral, ethic, or value? One is good for a certain person but isn't for another. If Christians believe their beloved is in heaven why don't they celebrate? Instead they mourn.
It's because they're not sure. Lack of faith is a sin. Yet they feel they are free of sin because someone died for them. They can do what they will because Jesus took the fault. Each God from each country throughout the world has crippled it's people. Each one is man made to make what we do easier. You all need a scapegoat so you invent god after god to do that.You have invented gods from Zeus to Jesus to take the blame and you think you're washed clean of all the evil you do.
You have no proof of any gods but yet you are brain washed to think any diety is real from birth. Mankind has weakened itself from the parents to the pulpit throughout life.
Destractions are put up like road blocks so we won't look into what's true. From movies, to star's lives,to cellphones, and our own needs to pull us away from looking into the big picture. You are sheep like your Christ said. Blind and stupid. As long as somone other than yourselves was nailed to that cross you don't care. You just care it wasn't you.
Feeble minded and scared you go through life thinking paradise is waiting for you. If paradise (heaven) is waiting, you would put a gun to your head right now and end it. You say life is what you make it but
complain how miserable it is. You all think back wards.
If you think your God has a place for you, why stay on this earth and live the misery you say you go through everyday? Just shut up and end it if you're so sure. Dance around a coffin instead of crying and throwing dirt and dead flowers on it. I'm sick of it. Everything is done for a reason according to your God. What is the reason? Speak up and state it instead of making lame excuses that it was meant to be.
You have no clue what's after death than I do. At least I admit it instead of hiding behind a God that there's no proof of. You go by a book of hearsay, written by authors AFTER your god was dead, and vile on top of that.
I'm a mother and totally behind the father that took to pledge to court. He loves his child to know the bunk the state and government shoveled his child every day. Freedom from religion is freedom from illusion and the beginning of open minds.
Religion will be the extinction of the human race. Each God getting into the minds of it's followers to kill others that don't conform to it's will.
Look at Iraq and others whose bible says to kill others that don't believe in what they believe. They believe the more they kill it brings them closer to paradise. Think about it people. Open your third eye.
All the while our President promises if you keep the faith you will prevail. Time showed our President Bush closeup praying. That's showing Americans to keep the faith in an invisable God that promised to take you into his bosom and love you forever in paradise. That was two thousand years ago he promised that, but yet you deity lovers are still persistant to think it will happen tommorrow if you don't get saved today.
Save your breath. I don't want to hear it. Keep believing that while the government takes away you rights one by one in you diety's name. Pray to that absentee landlord in the sky when we become a third world country. When we don't have any food to feed our children because of immagration and over population. Keep believing in that deity when he doesn't come through. You say to pray and he will hear you but you book says he won't.
Read the entire book people. Research your blood drenched religion.For you say that you don't promote or believe in adultry, genocide,sodomy, salvery, bigomy, cannibalism, murder, human and animal sacrafice,lying, cheating, being indecisive, being two-faced, claiming to create everything, to be the creator, and and perfect at that is not only lying to yourself but lying to generations to come.
Wake up and show the pulpit for what it is. Greedy men ( because there can never be any women to represent God), that use the deity to pay their bills and make themselves rich. They're spewing this filth to you for money to pay for thier leisure lifestyle while you work your ass off for their belief. They just hope you don't catch on. You're being scammed by every pulpit. From the Pope to Alluah. It's murderers and phoneys that talk for these deities. Quit going to churches. Quit giving your money for fake salvation. Bankrupt them all. Stop giving them you third eye (mind).
Wake up mankind. Don't believe and you will see a better world that will believe in preserving life for itself instead of for a deity, and not caring what happens to this world because you're promised a better one after you die. That's going to be the downfall for humankind if we don't take care of the one we live on now.
We need to unite as humans, being gods ourselves, and kick all other gods and pulpits from their so called grace. They're nothing but figureheads that live on the riches they get from the poor. Your deities care nothing for you.
We are nothing but animals to your gods, sheep, Take it for what it says. You are dumb to him and follow easily. He says don't ask questions, just believe. Mankind has fallen in this trap for years and still do to this day. I say this is the reason why we don't care.
You are the sheeples being lead by a pulpit of humans that claim that they are divine. That a diety speaks through them. Asking for faith and money. They say to be submissive and stupid. They only preach the verses that suit their needs to make this happen. You're all fools who live this ideal to let the top pulpits tell you how to live and think.
All top pulpits have ruled the laws of government. Without fear they have nothing.They throw a deity and hellfire into the mix and it commands you like robots. Open your minds and think for yourselves and the way the world is today.
Without bad they can't preach the good of thier diety and how having faith in it will fix everything. But they always ask for more money like they're going to hand it over to an invisable deity. Wrong sheeple.
Think for yourselves not like the others. Abolish religion and tmankind will prosper and nations will unite to rid the world of poverty,war, pollution,global warming, and nuclear weapons that's a threat to any race, creed or sex. Research the chaos religion has done to this world and how we live today. Take God off our money, schools, and the nation and watch the peace spread. Reprogram the world with love, knowledge, logic and reason and watch mankind live forever.

Written and Copywritten by:
Robyn Hanson


applesforadam
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational because it doesn't get me laid. And anything that doesn't serve the higher purpose of getting a piece of ass is completely irrational.

"It's not so much staying alive. It's staying human that's important." - 1984
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static_
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Theism is irrational . . .

Firstly, hey, this is "static_" from MySpace. I know I haven't given my input in awhile, but I found this thread a fun little chance to give my two cents.

Theism is irrational because it takes the healthy concept of pride and confidence in oneself, a theme that I believe the Bible to be more accurately interpreted as, and rapes it into an unconditional love in oneself - resulting in a harrowing display of bigotry.

Instead of falling in love with a "God", the theist is actually falling in love with certain (good) human attributes. That isn't wrong. But then they claim these attributes as unique to themselves (having a "personal relationship" with God), fall in love with the idea of God/good-human-attributes flourishing inside them, and, in turn, fall in love with themselves - selfishly, to the point that they view their neighbors as lesser, whether or not they admit it.

Not only is this damaging to the victim's concept of the world and relationships with non-theists, but it also begins to decay his/her ability to make wise choices in how he/she relates to fellow theists.

For example: A Christian girl is being persued by two guys - one a theist, the other an agnostic/atheist. Now, this isn't just any theist - this guy is all about it. The Jesus freak. The girl sees it (unconsciously) this way:
"I love a part of myself. You love a part of yourself. We love the same parts of ourselves. In turn, you love a part of me, and I love a part of you - and we barely know each other."

This goes far and beyond having a "common interest", and this is not limited to "relationships" in respect to the above example. It is irrationality, whole-sale, fed in 2,000 pages.

On a personal note, and this is only an opinion - theism is not only irrational, but it is also a plague to society and the root of whatever demise awaits us. It must end, lest we continue to waste away countless lives with the potential for so much more.


william
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Theism is based on fallacious and circular arguments

theism, is (with no pun intended) a self-fulfilling prophecy by design. the answer to all challenges eventually reach the entropic "the bible-koran-torah-bhagavad/god/theprophet/gaia says so." part of the problem is the core of theism, the question of whether god exists at all. this question is answered incompletely and responsibility for this decision or revelation is relegated to "faith". this faith is the lynchpin axiom for the theist argument. see below:

a = existence requires 'god'
c = existence is verifiable (this is arguable, but we won't go into that)
d = existence's catalyst
e = nothing or 'pre-existence'

we are given c as a premise (otherwise the discussion is moot from the beginning, so we'll move on), and by the very act of assuming that there is "existence" we must accept e as a premise (otherwise we have no "existence" we have "has always been" which, negates completely an argument for or against a catalyst for existence and simply posits that existence simply "is"Eye-wink.

now, with both c and e as premises we can deconstruct the argument as such:

e + d = c
d = a
:. e + a = c (god theory)
("d = a" is, at this point not demonstrable, :. "e + a = c" is a leap of faith that "d = a"Eye-wink

e + d = c (atheist theory)
(there is nothing that the atheist equates with d :. there is no leap of faith)

there is no questionable assertion of what existence's catalyst is, only an agreement that existence is verifiable which is held as true by both camps.

-William

"Seachas cothu na gael do faic." - O.Wilde


VaSiLiS
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WHo 'S DeNiNG iNTeLLiGeNCe??

what we call logic has its roots and it became constructed into mathematics, and it was strengthened through observation, experiment and reason.
if you accept it, you know that 1 plus 1 makes 2, and building on that, you start to see, feel and understand a little, of how this universe works.
you have at some point to make a rapid insane leap over mathematics, logic and reason if you want to involve god in all these, and we have no reason to believe that some equations will ever lead us to god.
because of that, there 's no point in asking wich one between atheists and godists is the irrational, and who 's dening intelligence, it is self evident.

there are many reasons why people must re_think and deny god theories, but i will only mention one.
believing things/ks unlogical and false, in such a basic topic for the growth of your personality, for sure will lead in great confusions and contradictions in each and every part of your life later.
-and through this you leave the doors open to others, who have power and knowledge of all that facts, to easily occupy your head.-

of course, i 'll be glad if somebody can proove me wrong.
:roll:


Otterpop
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Theism is irrational and against nature

Theism promotes the loss of personal responsibilty, decision-making and reasoning ability. Individuals involved in a religious organization lose more of their personal strengths the longer they stay affiliated.

Furthermore, the Christian knock-off religions currently flourishing in the US are often using individually printed texts pawned off as newer versions of the bible. Sometimes these texts are 'dumbed down' so much they lose their meaning all together.

When you mix the poor education performance in today's institutions with high levels of poverty, these charlatans calling themselves ministers are the people holding all the power. Without the benefit of knowledge, members of these churchs do not have the tools to seek historical documentation, literary opinions and preserved texts.

After admittedly becoming 'one of a flock' these people are then groomed to accept anything that is delivered in fancy packaging from someone who holds more power. Therefore, this 'flock' is easily mobilized by devious politicians and corrupt clergy. The 'flock' has causes handed to them with a mandate "Help or Burn in Hell." With such limited options, these undereducated voters march to the polls, voting on bills they neither understand, nor are truly concerned about.

After getting followers hooked on a godhead, it is simple to point to a leader in any community and deem them "chosen." In my opinion, Theism in The United States has reached an alarming level that needs to be addressed immediately before it has an even more devastating affect on our policies and culture.

"You have to stay awake to make your dreams come true."


Otterpop
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Maturity without Guidance?

todangst wrote:
To follow along with what Natural said:

Faith is belief based on desire. Period. Theistic faith is not an epistemological position, it's a rejection of epistemology itself... it's the claim that one can hold to a belief without any reason.

The desires to hold to such beliefs are inculcated into us before we are even capable of going to the bathroom on our own. To learn to question what we have been told, is to step into adulthood.

I completely agree. Although, I am deeply afraid of the throw-away children of the '70s and '80s who have not been educated to make informed decisions. Will any of these people EVER mature enough to make any decisions if the only attention or guidance they have ever received is from these corrupt religious organizations?

"You have to stay awake to make your dreams come true."


Sapient
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

I'm really amazed at the response so far. I never expected this. Really some great responses, and I'm privy to the fact that a bunch more are coming. Really great job everyone! When this is over, I'll make sure this thread remains as a testament to the views of this community as to why theism is irrational. In the future if anyone asks about our claim that theism is irrational, this thread should and will be referred to.

Special kudos to Skepdick for the lengthy and great response.

Keep em coming everyone. Smiling

- Brian Sapient


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My essay

The irrationality of theism.

I'll make no effort to distinguish between the various flavors of theism as there is no substantial difference between them where their lack of grounding in reality is concerned.

The primary symptom of this universal irrationality in Theism is that there is simply no verifiable evidence for the core claim of any theistic belief--specifically, that there is a deity. Looking deeper and deeper into the mysteries of the universe, the open-minded seekers of the world have discovered no evidence that proclaiming a 2000 years-dead Jewish messiah-figure as one's personal savior, nor praying to Mecca thrice daily, nor refraining from eating pork changes the state of being human or of the universe in any regard.

The only "evidence" offered by theists are references to their holy books or to their personal experiences or feelings. Neither of which is evidence of anything other than what their books say and what their hearts feel. There is no rationality there, only assertions that conflict with essential reality.

Held to any honest test of reason, the beliefs of theists quite quickly fall to nothing. Hence, theists constantly find themselves repeating the same defeated arguments--perhaps in the hope that God will make them true--and becoming angered and afraid as their tower of babel is laid to ruin and their desire to be correct by fiat is exposed for the folly it is.

The true nature of that ignorance is perhaps the most irrational aspect of Theism. Specifically, it is a willful ignorance. Willful ignorance has brought only pain and suffering into this world and one who plunges their head in the sand inevitably suffocates.

The irrationality of theism is, ultimately, that it replaces magnificent truths with unimaginative lies; it replaces human compassion with inhuman intolerance; and that it replaces endless potential with arbitrary boundaries demarcated only by the fear of imaginary gods on the part of those who choose that benighted path.


evolvebeyondgod
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational because humans are notorious for inventing gods for things we don't understand. The farther back in human history goes, the easier religion is to disprove. While planets, stars and moons were once gods to men, science has given clarity and shattered any remnants of a belief in "sky gods" we can call them. As the human mind progresses and science unfolds our universe, religion has receded down to something intangible that exists only in minds. This is the last stand for religion, because it has collapsed to a point where family tradition is the only way to guarantee religious indoctrination, and every day a believer questions faith to the point of nonbelief, as I have done and so many of you have also done. While some people become "reborn" christians, far more neglect and forget about it. Like a fever on the human race, religion has been broken and it's only a matter of time.

We should work to end theistic belief because reason and logic are not vital factors in natural selection, which means believers can reproduce at the same rate as nonbelievers. Also, humans are violent and hostile when put in social groups, and unfortunately religions have become social (and political, for that matter) groups that have, naturally, become violent and hostile. This is a force to be reckoned with. Though, instead of attacking religion, we need to work from the inside and dismantle its structure. We are one of the most extreme minorities in the world, which means logic and reason are our weapons. Hostility will never stand against religion...their social groups are much too large and their members are far too hostile. Combine the slow rate of religious abandonment with the increasing hostility of a group with dwindling numbers and we've got quite a future ahead of us.

As the human mind evolves, religion devolves.


darth_josh
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Theism is irrational because it provides a scapegoat for the theist's own actions and an intangible/unreliable feeling of comfort. The catch-all sin machine is divine forgiveness. There exists no need to right the wrongs committed in life if you will be forgiven or punished after death. The loopholes for forgiveness truly make it near impossible for a believer to feel like they are NOT 'saved' by their respective deity. This creates the divide between those responsible for their own actions and those whom cannot feel any responsibility.
Accountability after death is unenforceable without the fear of a deity's wrath. However, each of the mainstream religions has given their god(s) the divine attribute of LOVE for their believers.
Theism has covered its bases by both fear and reward for the faithful. True geniuses refined the modern faiths into something that soothes the human nature. This is the true evil involved with theism. The label of irrational is the thinking human's way of describing something judged evil by its ethical and logical examination.
The individual theist is not a 'bad human' nor are they stupid. They are conditioned by their progenitors with these beliefs because maintaining those beliefs fit their mode of civilization. Many times, these individual theists find themselves 'lost' in their life choices and clueless to the solution that fits their particular problem. They perform just as small mammals in this instance by going to their parents. These parents, who are just as clueless, recall what their parents did and teach their offspring to trust in god/buddha/muhammad/krishna etc. The process has not and will not change until our ideas concerning child-rearing are changed. We, as parents, must break the cycle of irrational problem solving/soothing involving reliance upon a non-existent deity. The humans seeing the failed results of faith must find or be led to better problem solving adjustments. Until we do so as a species, we could be judged as irrational for taking away the theist's only comfort.
We can give them all of the evidence that their religions are hoakey. The irrational part is their disregard of the logic due to their comfort level.
Just as humankind created their god, so too can they destroy it. It is this death of theism that I wish that I could be alive to see and sincerely hope to precipitate with human caring and compassion without imagined help.

Try to remember and please remind me, from time to time, that we must hate the game and not the players. Irrational behavior can be of any ideology and shows no bias for gender, race, sexuality, intellect, or economic situation.

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Gravity the asshat
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Believing that extra-terrestrials exist is irrational because we have absolutely no evidence for them. The belief is just a feeling, that the universe is "a big waste" if there is not any extra terrestrial anywhere in the entire universe, which is pathos driven irrationality.


dave
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Those wacky Homo Sapiens

Since our species has had the ability to question its surroundings and origin, it has at the same time tried to -answer- these questions. What kinds of answers have we come up with? We've assigned trancendental powers to the sun, the moon, the stars, rivers, trees, and animals. When we realized that this was silly, we still wanted our questions answered so we came up with the idea of unseen "gods". When science and empirical evidence came around, more and more of the claims that used theism to explain the world were also seen to be silly. However, certain members of our species have continued to use their god or gods to explain certain things. There have been many different gods from cultures all over the world, going back to the very beginning of recorded history. The beauty of gods is that anyone can make one up. You don't need any evidence. You just say that yours exists. And it is the reason everything -else- exists. How can you get more irrational than that? Despite all the things I love about being alive and love about the time period we're in right now, I regret that I won't get to see humanity in the future when ALL adult humans view gods and goddesses the same way adult humans today view the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. Will it really happen? I think we're definitely heading that way.


Samuel
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The Irrationality of Theism

I wrote a 7 page, 12-font essay, but I need an editor. So while Sapient toys with my works and makes them all spit shined, here is a short verson I wrote.

SHORT VERSION:

Here is a short version of my ?The Irrationality of Theism? essay. To put it simply; theism is irrational because it is belief in something that you do not know to be true. It is often preached with blind faith and pushes reason aside to any area of life the cold hand of the church reaches. It is to give up the veracity of your mind. All beliefs without merit behind them are irrational, but theism is especially irrational because it attempts to preach excuses for its irrationality and how large it makes itself out to be. It isn?t an every day foolish belief ? it attempts to govern every aspect of human life. It places the greatest importance of all on a myth; on something that no one knows actually exists. It even places importance before other humans. All blind faiths are irrational, but if the blind faith avers it is the most important, all knowing thing in the sky it becomes much more dangerous and harmful. It attacks reason and holds stupidity high on a pedestal. It leads to intolerance. People claiming to know the will of the unknown seek to take away certain human rights. Much of life, which is too short as it is, is wasted on lies and falsehoods. People of differing beliefs are called evil and politically fought ? or even physically fought. Rationality is the opposite of blind faith. Is theism irrational? By its own merit, of course it is. And the true problem of theism is that the theist doesn?t care. He is trained not to, bribed with promises of a heaven not to, or scared with threats of hell not to. Belief in what you don?t know to be true is disgusting to anyone who truly loves intelligence and the veracity of the mind ? the most wondrous and beautiful things known in the universe. The known should be cared for; it should be put up high. Not the unknown. Stupidity is not a virtue, emotion is not evidence, and fear and desperate hope doesn?t increase the chances of their actually being a God or afterlife. Do not ever trade your mind for that level of bullshit.

-- Samuel Thomas Poling


Nick
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Can't wait to hear this show! Laughing out loud


Anonymous
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THEISM IS IRRATIONAL, VIEWS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

Philosophically theism is irrational as it prizes faith as the superior means of knowledge acquisition.

Psychologically theism can be a rational choice in day-to-day pragmatic terms if it has real benefits in getting you through the day or avoiding persecution.

Morally theism is irrational because it ascribes to moral absolutes handed down on a plate (e.g. a piece of fruit, stone tablets and then a book in Christianity).

Politcally theism may or may not be rational. A popular religious uprising in North Korea might be rational if it has real pragamtic benefits.


stedkelly
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Irrational

Theism initiates hatred and exclusion based on lack of evidence, when we live in the age where our convictions are challenged for proof.


cynicastoic
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Atheism is irrational

todangst wrote:
To follow along with what Natural said:

Faith is belief based on desire. Period. Theistic faith is not an epistemological position, it's a rejection of epistemology itself... it's the claim that one can hold to a belief without any reason.

The desires to hold to such beliefs are inculcated into us before we are even capable of going to the bathroom on our own. To learn to question what we have been told, is to step into adulthood.

Atheism is a belief/stance/position based on DESIRE. The desire to simply prove that the existence of a God, the belief in a god is irrational. What is it that motivates this? Yet another irrational will.

If theism is based upon desire as you have purported, then atheism is not based upon desire. You will make the illegal maneuver to state that the negation of desire is reason - it is not.

To truly be in the antithetical position - your so-called rational-response must be without passions, without desire, without emotion. But most of these posts show nothing but harsh feelings and emotions.

Please note, I am not singling out this user.


Sapient
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Cynicastoic, considering you

Cynicastoic, considering you list yourself as agnostic in your myspace profile, and I'm short on time to analyze everything you wrote, I think we should start on your first two sentences, see if you're willing to adjust what you said to fit the facts, and then we can work from there.

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Supplemental reading:
Am I agnostic or atheist?

Agnosticism and it's many misconceptions The definitions from the Oxford English Dictionary.

- Brian Sapient


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